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Old 20th June 2012, 02:54 PM   #2441
Checkmite
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Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
Checkmite, it is exactly the same thing I said regarding Rebecca. She has the opportunity here to go back and edit to make sure that people who don't scroll through all the comments will not walk away misinformed.
Well okay fine, perhaps she could clarify in her next blog post; but Jesus Christ, how in the heck can anyone accuse her of spreading gossip? She did receive a curt initial reply. She did specify TWICE that it wasn't an official response. She did announce later that she got a response from DJ, and she did say it wasn't a mere handwave. She did admit that in retrospect mentioning the initial response was a bad idea.

I don't see any "overreaction" on Ophilia's part at all - anywhere. I don't see angry rants from her, I don't see a single pejorative leveled at DJ in a single one of her comments. Somebody asked her if she had gotten a reply to her email, and she answered it honestly. So what the trucking truck? She has to amend her blog post that says not a single thing about the JREF or DJ to warn people that they won't get the whole story if they just read the first few posts in the comment thread?

This is like saying that McDonalds having a kiosk next to the register full of "Nutrition Facts" brochures that anyone can grab isn't good enough, they should have to post the calorie counts on the menu board where people have to look at them whether they care or not.
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Old 20th June 2012, 02:58 PM   #2442
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
I'll give it a go: "gossip" is the private spreading of second-hand (or more distant) information to even more distant parties, usually to the intentional exclusion of one or more of the first-hand parties.

Example: A and B get in a fight. B tells C, who in turn tells D, E, and F, all with the intent that B's version of events won't get back to A. That's gossip.
It is typically unconfirmed stories but it doesn't have to be intentionally dishonest. A lot of the misinformation can be attributed to a game of telephone. Gossip, also doesn't only have to be negative, in nature; ie "I heard Jane is pregnant," or "I heard John is going to propose to his girlfriend."
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Old 20th June 2012, 03:01 PM   #2443
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oh come on! You are just being ridiculous now.

If statements are already being made that JREF is ignoring the complaints and safety issues of women at TAM and I go on my blog or on skepchick or here and post

"Well I got a death threat and reported it to JREF. Guess what? Surprise surprise surprise....'

And that's all I say. I'm not saying anything. But I'm allowing a misconception to be drawn that I was also ignored.

If people start commenting

"let me guess they ignored you" etc and I don't clarify it, I am allowing a misconception to develop.

That's worse than gossip IMO because it seems a bit devious.
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Old 20th June 2012, 03:01 PM   #2444
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Well okay fine, perhaps she could clarify in her next blog post; but Jesus Christ, how in the heck can anyone accuse her of spreading gossip? She did receive a curt initial reply. She did specify TWICE that it wasn't an official response. She did announce later that she got a response from DJ, and she did say it wasn't a mere handwave. She did admit that in retrospect mentioning the initial response was a bad idea.

I don't see any "overreaction" on Ophilia's part at all - anywhere. I don't see angry rants from her, I don't see a single pejorative leveled at DJ in a single one of her comments. Somebody asked her if she had gotten a reply to her email, and she answered it honestly. So what the trucking truck? She has to amend her blog post that says not a single thing about the JREF or DJ to warn people that they won't get the whole story if they just read the first few posts in the comment thread?

This is like saying that McDonalds having a kiosk next to the register full of "Nutrition Facts" brochures that anyone can grab isn't good enough, they should have to post the calorie counts on the menu board where people have to look at them whether they care or not.
Checkmite, really read the responses. PZ is saying that he was offered a security escort - "just sayin'". Ophelia never, ever, ever, not even once clarifies if DJ offered her the same or not! Nor do we even know that the initial response was curt! She has already said that it didn't literally say "kthxbye".

See? Here we go again - we are right at the same crossroads we were with Rebecca and Elevatorgate - when she had the opportunity to correct people who were mischaracterizing what happened and did not do so. And we're taking the SAME PATH AGAIN, and funnily enough, it is the same person (PZ) making the accusatory blog post.
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Old 20th June 2012, 03:01 PM   #2445
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Originally Posted by monoman View Post
@Checkmite

To add to my previous post. PZ Myers has made a smarmy post about how he was offered security when he was threatened before attending a Global Atheist Conference.

Ophelia Benson has commented on that post but at no time has she mentioned the extent of the official response from the JREF. It's safe to assume that everyone on that thread thinks the response was meh.
Let them think the response was meh. It's a valid subjective opinion of something that actually happened, not vicious gossip.

When I look at Ophelia's blog post, it seems to me that she sounds as if the threat was received lately. Is it possible that her responses and interpretations of the event are colored by her being rattled by the threat she just got?
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Old 20th June 2012, 03:08 PM   #2446
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Now we're talking about another post by someone completely different. Ophelia isn't only responsible for editing her blog to correct commenters' misconceptions; she's responsible for what happens on this PZ guy's blog as well. Ophelia "didn't specify on PZ's blog that DJ didn't offer her security? It seems to me that's only a problem if DJ actually had. If he hadn't, I would consider the vindictive, "rumor-mongering" response to be "Yeah, the bastard didn't even offer me security!", not no response at all.
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Old 20th June 2012, 03:10 PM   #2447
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Now we're talking about another post by someone completely different. Ophelia isn't only responsible for editing her blog to correct commenters' misconceptions; she's responsible for what happens on this PZ guy's blog as well. Ophelia "didn't specify on PZ's blog that DJ didn't offer her security? It seems to me that's only a problem if DJ actually had. If he hadn't, I would consider the vindictive, "rumor-mongering" response to be "Yeah, the bastard didn't even offer me security!", not no response at all.
Checkmite, she is commenting on the blog. If people are mischaracterizing, she has every opportunity in the universe to say so. And saying that DJ's response was "meh"? That information isn't there. And I'm sorry, but I sincerely, sincerely, sincerely, SINCERELY doubt that with everything flying the way it has been that DJ did anything but take her very seriously.
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Old 20th June 2012, 03:10 PM   #2448
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
oh come on! You are just being ridiculous now.

If statements are already being made that JREF is ignoring the complaints and safety issues of women at TAM and I go on my blog or on skepchick or here and post

"Well I got a death threat and reported it to JREF. Guess what? Surprise surprise surprise....'

And that's all I say. I'm not saying anything. But I'm allowing a misconception to be drawn that I was also ignored.

If people start commenting

"let me guess they ignored you" etc and I don't clarify it, I am allowing a misconception to develop.

That's worse than gossip IMO because it seems a bit devious.
There is another issue that everyone seems to want to ignore. Apply Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit to the evidence of a threat:

There is a claim of a threat but the person will not show the actual threat. They will however post about it on the internet and use it to further an agenda.

THAT'S A BIG FLAG PEOPLE!
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Old 20th June 2012, 03:13 PM   #2449
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Ah, I see "nobody's saying these things didn't happen" once again.
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Old 20th June 2012, 03:24 PM   #2450
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Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
Checkmite, she is commenting on the blog. If people are mischaracterizing, she has every opportunity in the universe to say so.
Has she actually said anything bad about DJ in her comments?

Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
And saying that DJ's response was "meh"? That information isn't there.
Not there for us - so we can't fairly form an opinion. The email was sent to Ophilia, she has all the information she needs to form an opinion!
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Old 20th June 2012, 03:28 PM   #2451
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Wait, you can't have it both ways. You can't expect to be taken seriously but only when you want to be.

You can't demand respect and complain that women aren't taken seriously and then get annoyed at people for taking her seriously.

I mean seriously.
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Old 20th June 2012, 03:33 PM   #2452
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Taking what seriously? What exactly has she actually said?

1. She was threatened and decided not to go
2. She told the JREF this
3. The response in her opinion was "meh".

Scandalous and unfair? Gossip and Rumor-mongering? Really? It seems to me that her comments if anything have been painfully neutral.

Frankly if her clarifying things in comments on her own blog post wasn't good enough, I don't see how clarifying things in comments on another person's blog post is going to make anyone happy.

Let's imagine she does post: "No, at no time did DJ ever offer me security". Will the response be "thanks for clarifying", or "SECURITY???!?!? Overreacting to an internets threat!!! Sense of entitlement! Hysteria over nothing!"
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Old 20th June 2012, 03:35 PM   #2453
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You honestly have no idea what the problem is? People have been worked into a frenzy over the idea of DJ Grothe ignoring women complaining about their safety at TAM.

She reports she got a death threat from someone about TAM and reported it to JREF and the reply was "meh"

And you don't understand how this could be taken the wrong way?
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Old 20th June 2012, 03:39 PM   #2454
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
She reports she got a death threat from someone about TAM and reported it to JREF and the reply was "meh"

And you don't understand how this could be taken the wrong way?
But if that's the simple truth as Ophelia is aware of it, what more can she actually do? Isn't this like DJ saying that to his knowledge there'd never been a report of sexual harassment at TAM?
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Old 20th June 2012, 03:48 PM   #2455
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Now we're talking about another post by someone completely different. Ophelia isn't only responsible for editing her blog to correct commenters' misconceptions; she's responsible for what happens on this PZ guy's blog as well. Ophelia "didn't specify on PZ's blog that DJ didn't offer her security? It seems to me that's only a problem if DJ actually had. If he hadn't, I would consider the vindictive, "rumor-mongering" response to be "Yeah, the bastard didn't even offer me security!", not no response at all.
It isn't just some other blog, both blogs are part of something called the free thought blogs.

And this post and run style with clarifications inserted at comment #300 seems to me an example of what DJ is talking about!
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Old 20th June 2012, 03:56 PM   #2456
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
But if that's the simple truth as Ophelia is aware of it, what more can she actually do? Isn't this like DJ saying that to his knowledge there'd never been a report of sexual harassment at TAM?
Um she can be honest and say who she actually sent the email to, and let people know that DJ Grothe probably doesn't even know about it.

She can let people know exactly what was in the email instead of interpreting it, like everyone else has done.

She can edit the OP to make sure people understand that she's not saying DJ Grothe ignored her email.

She can post LIKE THIS to grab attention of people who may scroll past and not see her correction.

She could have been mindful of the controversy flying around and not poured gasoline on the fire.

And you know what

THIS is what pisses me off. And this is what I mean when I say people who GOSSIP have more to do with women not coming to TAM by exaggerating and spreading half truths.

This is more of the problem than actual events at TAM and I think it's disgusting.
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Old 20th June 2012, 04:09 PM   #2457
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Um she can be honest and say who she actually sent the email to, and let people know that DJ Grothe probably doesn't even know about it.
Wait, what? She said she hadn't gotten an official response.

Originally Posted by truethat View Post
She can let people know exactly what was in the email instead of interpreting it, like everyone else has done.

She can edit the OP to make sure people understand that she's not saying DJ Grothe ignored her email.
Her OP announced only that she was not going to TAM due to a threat. That's literally all it said.

Originally Posted by truethat View Post
She can post LIKE THIS to grab attention of people who may scroll past and not see her correction.
Sure she could've. So the problem here after all is what she didn't do rather than what she did? Guilty by omission?

Originally Posted by truethat View Post
She could have been mindful of the controversy flying around and not poured gasoline on the fire.
...so she shouldn't have publicly reported the threat.
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Old 20th June 2012, 04:10 PM   #2458
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OK now you are just pretending not to "get it" because you wanna win or something.
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Old 20th June 2012, 04:56 PM   #2459
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No, but - *sigh*

I quit.
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Old 20th June 2012, 06:24 PM   #2460
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
No, but - *sigh*

I quit.
For which, I am sure, the rest of us will be eternally grateful.
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Old 20th June 2012, 07:46 PM   #2461
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Originally Posted by monoman View Post
Sounds like A won the fight and B is pretending that they did. Can you confirm AvalonXQ?
Did we ever find out who won the fight?
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Old 20th June 2012, 08:17 PM   #2462
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Originally Posted by TsarBomba View Post
For which, I am sure, the rest of us will be eternally grateful.


You are incorrect about that.
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Old 20th June 2012, 08:24 PM   #2463
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
...THAT'S A BIG FLAG PEOPLE!
A redder flag, I think, is when someone implies that people are making up stuff to serve some hidden agenda, when there's absolutely no evidence that something like that is happening. So Ophelia decides not to go to TAM for some reason, then rather than just say "I don't feel like going this year" or something she chooses to make up some story about receiving a threat that made her nervous -- just in the off chance that JREF would provide a dismissive response that she chould tout to "further her agenda"? Sorry, but if I even found myself thinking along those convoluted lines, I'd red flag my own self.
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Old 20th June 2012, 09:12 PM   #2464
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Is that how you took it really? Sorry that's just plain melodrama. As a responsible adult if someone sent me a death threat I'd report it and name the person. There are lots of violent people in the world.

I mean your own response shows you yourself Stellafane didn't take it seriously and apparently neither did Ophelia.

If I got at death threat that made me not want to go to TAM I would be notifying security at the hotel, letting people read the death threat publicly, notifying the police to try to track the person down and definitely making sure as many people were aware of this as possible.

Why? Well because if I took it seriously I would realize that someone who makes death threats might just try to act it out and could do something like shooting up the casino or setting off a bomb and hurting more people than just me.

If I didn't take it seriously then "meh" and gee that sounds familiar.
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Old 20th June 2012, 09:17 PM   #2465
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
You are incorrect about that.
Yes you are right. I fully understand Checkmite's frustration though.
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Old 20th June 2012, 09:22 PM   #2466
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Dig at me, adding nothing to the conversation. Like clockwork.
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Old 20th June 2012, 09:32 PM   #2467
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Dig at me, adding nothing to the conversation. Like clockwork.
Delusional and off topic. My comment had nothing to do with you.
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Old 20th June 2012, 09:35 PM   #2468
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wrong thread.
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Old 20th June 2012, 10:15 PM   #2469
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To clarify - to my knowledge, no one ever said it was a death threat.
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Old 20th June 2012, 10:18 PM   #2470
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Ah yes, I see that. Well they sound like "threats" of some form of harm. But nonetheless is should be taken seriously.


Interesting because the gossip has it being "death threats" as the gossip unfolds.


Quote:
Not when the general attitudes* displayed by certain prominent individuals and their supporters are not immediately readily distinguishable from the attitude* apparently underlying a maybe-just-a-particularly-vile-troll DEATH THREAT.
post 335
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Old 21st June 2012, 02:49 AM   #2471
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Did we ever find out who won the fight?
No, but I heard from F and she said that A definitely slept with B's girlfriend.
It's the kind of behaviour I've come to expect from those privileged 'alpha' letters rooted at the pit of the alphabet.

Christ I'm so angry right now Can't we all just get along!!!!
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Old 21st June 2012, 03:13 AM   #2472
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If we are lightening the tone for a moment:
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Old 21st June 2012, 03:38 AM   #2473
Horatius
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Originally Posted by monoman View Post
Can't we all just get along!!!!


By this point, I'm sure it's pretty clear; No, We Can't.
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Old 21st June 2012, 05:51 AM   #2474
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Is that how you took it really? Sorry that's just plain melodrama. As a responsible adult if someone sent me a death threat I'd report it and name the person. There are lots of violent people in the world.

I mean your own response shows you yourself Stellafane didn't take it seriously and apparently neither did Ophelia.

If I got at death threat that made me not want to go to TAM I would be notifying security at the hotel, letting people read the death threat publicly, notifying the police to try to track the person down and definitely making sure as many people were aware of this as possible.

Why? Well because if I took it seriously I would realize that someone who makes death threats might just try to act it out and could do something like shooting up the casino or setting off a bomb and hurting more people than just me.

If I didn't take it seriously then "meh" and gee that sounds familiar.
Truethat, in all honesty I'm having a difficult time parsing out this note and knowing how to respond to it. You are obviously a good writer, and I'm in no position to critique anyone else's writing style -- glass houses and all that. But I think this note may be conveying a few too many ideas for me to follow along (which may be my own mental density at play). For instance, in your opening question, what is "it," Ophelia's response or qayak's post? What am I being melodramatic about? In what way does my response demonstrate that I didn't take it seriously (and by "it" I'm assuming we're now talking about the threat to Ophelia)?

I'm not trying to be snarky or nitpicky (although I can easily see how this would be interpreted as such, and if you choose to respond in kind I'll understand). But to provide a meaningful and relevant response, I need a bit more clarity on what precisely I'm responding to.
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Last edited by Stellafane; 21st June 2012 at 05:53 AM.
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Old 21st June 2012, 06:13 AM   #2475
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Stellafane,

Are you concerned for Ophelia's safety? Are you concerned that were she to go to TAM the threat against her would be carried out?
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Old 21st June 2012, 06:20 AM   #2476
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Well it might be something I'm assuming you can see Stellafane, thanks for asking me to explain. I'm not always the easiest poster to understand.

I think it's melodramatic to suggest that because qayak is suspect of Ophelia's posts about what happened he's suggesting she made the whole thing up to get attention. You seem to be saying that he's saying that she's pretending this happened just so she has an out to go.

Although his "that's a big red flag" is dramatic in itself. I don't see where he said what you said.

The thing is, everyone is going to have a different interpretation of what happened. I am sure the threats happened. But as we can see the poster reactions slowly turned it into a death threat.

In discussing this on Ophelia's thread you see people get things right, exaggerate, take it a wrong way etc. It is just human nature.

We've seen on this thread alone where bookitty said she would warn her niece that a lot of men saying they had a right to make advances....

In that case I put the emphasis on "a lot" and got rankled for her making it seem like many men are doing this. She put the emphasis on "saying" meaning (I think) that she wasn't saying men "would" do this but saying they would. She said I got it wrong. Since she is the one who said it, I'm taking her at her word. But it goes to show how written words can often convey meaning that isn't intended.

Not quite sure what she means but people can interpret things very different ways. People are also privy to their own interactions with people, history and whatnot, so to a person not very involved, nuances might be overlooked etc.

In Ophelia's case it seems that she just didn't want to deal with a jerk at TAM so she decided not to go, and also it seems like she wanted to make a statement by not going.

However as you follow this you see it getting blown all out of proportion. Not by the actual victims but by others following along. IOW the gossip. And that's what is creating the melodrama.

In Ophelia's case she contacted JREF and didn't speak to DJ Grothe about it. People twisted this once again to being DJ Grothe dismissed what happened. In this case he supposedly ignored a death threat. And once again it turned into him not taking seriously what happened to a woman planning to attend TAM, in this case a guest speaker.

Except that's not what happened. He didn't even know about it. Because Ophelia had never told him. She just mentioned it in a "housekeeping email" to JREF in general. When he did find out he told Ophelia he wanted to know what happened.


Another woman (who in my opinion is trying to ride the 15 minute of fame train) called DJ Grothe directly with a series of questions to be answered etc. He said he'd call her back and then got into the office and had the communications person contact her and ask for details.

This was again viewed as "blowing her off." Who is this other woman--this "freelance reporter?" Well it appears to be someone who doesn't really know what's going on but is jumping into the fray. Why does she feel that the president who is busy running something, is out of line to have his communications person contact her and ask her to communicate with him via her?


As all of this unfolds and has unfolded in the past, we have watched the mob mentality run with partial bits of information and inflate it into something that never happened.

And so some of us are saying "Wait what happened?" What was the threat? Was it a death threat? Who threatened her? If it was an email then it should be relatively easy to figure out. Was that person a member of TAM? Of JREF? Was this just a jerk being vicious? Why is this once again being directed to the organizers of TAM as if this is their responsibility?

Asking these questions is a reasonable reaction to the frenzy that is going on. To get the truth and know what happened.

Construing this as accusing the victim of lying is melodramatic to me.
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Old 21st June 2012, 07:14 AM   #2477
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Originally Posted by monoman View Post
Can't we all just get along!!!!
OFF-TOPIC: Coincidentally (probably not), Rodney King died the other day: Rodney King Dies at 47; Police Beating Victim Who Asked ‘Can We All Get Along?’
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Old 21st June 2012, 07:46 AM   #2478
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Originally Posted by Baloney View Post
Coincidentally (probably not), Rodney King died the other day: Rodney King Dies at 47; Police Beating Victim Who Asked ‘Can We All Get Along?’
Did he sexually harass any TAM attendees?
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Old 21st June 2012, 08:04 AM   #2479
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
...I think it's melodramatic to suggest that because qayak is suspect of Ophelia's posts about what happened he's suggesting she made the whole thing up to get attention. You seem to be saying that he's saying that she's pretending this happened just so she has an out to go.

...Asking these questions is a reasonable reaction to the frenzy that is going on. To get the truth and know what happened.

Construing this as accusing the victim of lying is melodramatic to me.
Ah, OK, thanks for the clarification. I thought that's what you meant, but I wasn't certain.

In any case, I don't think my reply was particularly melodramatic. After all, the rest of qayak's posts states the following:

Quote:
There is another issue that everyone seems to want to ignore. Apply Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit to the evidence of a threat:

There is a claim of a threat but the person will not show the actual threat. They will however post about it on the internet and use it to further an agenda...
Given the above wording (especially the phrase "baloney detector") I don't think it's any stretch at all to conclude qayak is questioning the veracity of Ophelia's report that she was threatened -- and indeed, the theatrical addition of the oversized "red flag" comment hardly leaves many other reasonable conclusions. This is not "asking these questions" as you phased it; this is implying very, very strongly that Ophelia is lying. My response to that was a way of showing my incredulity that such an implication was at all viable.
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Old 21st June 2012, 08:16 AM   #2480
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Ah, I see the disconnect. Lying about DJ Grothe or JREF's reaction in their emails is not the same thing as lying about being threatened.
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