ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags George Zimmerman , shooting incidents , Trayvon Martin

Closed Thread
Old 23rd June 2012, 09:37 PM   #121
Unabogie
Philosopher
 
Unabogie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,688
Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
But this speculation is old, from before we got his own words to match against the NEN call. We can tell that the circling didn't happen the way he says because the timing doesn't match. Serious keeps asking him "where are you here?" because he wants to tie him down. I'll read this link but my contention is that even without DD his story doesn't hold up.
Ok, read it. Yeah, they have George's story all wrong. That site is not accurate. Now that we have his actual story, we can look back and discount the early speculation.
Unabogie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2012, 09:43 PM   #122
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 9,109
Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Personal attacks are all you have?
Pretty much. From this point forward, some people are going to offer nothing more than bile and bare assertions. Along the way, they'll whine about the thread being uninteresting and rack up yellow cards because of their inability to have a grown-up discussion.

I have repeatedly stated that I would form my opinion based on the facts, and if those facts pointed to Zimmerman being innocent, then so be it. But as the tide is turning against Zimmerman, it's enjoyable to watch how many people are committed to him being exonerated regardless of the truth.
__________________
Lost your faith in humanity?

Click here to have it restored.

Or here.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2012, 09:48 PM   #123
Unabogie
Philosopher
 
Unabogie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,688
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Pretty much. From this point forward, some people are going to offer nothing more than bile and bare assertions. Along the way, they'll whine about the thread being uninteresting and rack up yellow cards because of their inability to have a grown-up discussion.

I have repeatedly stated that I would form my opinion based on the facts, and if those facts pointed to Zimmerman being innocent, then so be it. But as the tide is turning against Zimmerman, it's enjoyable to watch how many people are committed to him being exonerated regardless of the truth.
Yeah, he really talked a lot. It's interesting to me to see a case where so much info is public. Getting his story and hearing his interrogation removes a huge layer of mystery. People should spend their time listening to each of those interviews. I'm not surprised at all that he was charged and the folks accusing Corey of some sort of malfeasance look pretty foolish right now.
Unabogie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2012, 09:55 PM   #124
Mumbles
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,787
Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
George never says he is near the clubhouse, it's Martin near the clubhouse when my timeline places him there

19:11:16 Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, ~~~~ the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.

19:12:00 Dispatcher: Okay—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

19:12:33 Zimmerman: Ayup, he's coming to check me out.
That's at GZ's position
19:13:03 Zimmerman: Actually. You would go past the clubhouse.
Also, although you can hear his door open, the "you're doing something wrong" car jingle turn on, and then him close his door, we never hear his engine accelerate in his recording. My guess is that Zimmerman was driving up Twin Trees, spotted Martin, and pulled over on the east-west portion of the street. Although he thinks Martin is coming to "check [him] out", Martin was really just walking home. And when Martin runs, Zimmerman has to turn around to get a flashlight, get his keys, open his door, and so forth, and this is why he has no idea where Martin went once he finally gets out of his car.

I mean, if he's facing his car at the dog path, and sees Trayvon slip between the houses, come back, and then run off again, how on earth did he lose sight of him? His headlights should let him see exactly whic direction Martn goes.

And about the dispatcher asking for an address, that only happens after Zimmerman got out of his car.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2012, 10:12 PM   #125
Mumbles
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,787
Originally Posted by sgtbaker View Post
Seriously, have you ever watched Randi's videos proving how bad our memory is when talking to a pscychic? There was one where he had a woman get a psychic reading. She was supposed to tell the psychic every time she got something wrong. Then he listens to the recording and counts how many times they psychic got something wrong. The woman's answer was in the low tens. James Randi said he counted something in the 40's guesses the psychic got wrong. We do not have perfect memories. Our brains don't always remember things in the correct order.
The problem is, virtually everything he misremembered just somehow makes him look like an innocent guy.

Oh, he was concerned because Martin was on someone's lawn. Oh, he was parked at the clubhouse. Oh, he only moved his car because the operator told him to. Oh, he was more worried because Martin reappeared and circled his car and then ran off again. Oh, he only got out to look for an address, because the operator insisted on having one. Zimmerman was just an innocent guy who was attacked by a crazed, vicious teenager because he got bad instructions from dispatch.

Yeah right. He was never parked at the clubhouse, so he never saw Martin just standing on a lawn. He didn't move his car, and the operator never asked him to. Martin never re-emerged to circle his car and then run back. And really, if Martin were crazy and violent, he would have started beating on Zimmerman's window and pulling on his door handle window, not do some stupid stalker dance and run off again. And the operator only asked him what address he was parked at after Zimmerman started running after Martin.

But we're supposed to believe that Martin waited in a shadow or behind some knee-high bushes, waited until after seeing Zimmerman pass by twice, and suddenly went into a violent, movie dialogue spouting rampage? And this despite the fact that the girl Martin was on the phone heard something totally different, and that another witness heard "talking, then shouting, and then fighting"?
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2012, 10:24 PM   #126
OnlyTellsTruths
 
OnlyTellsTruths's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,115
Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic View Post
I'm glad you're taking the time to post because it's posts like this that are the only thing left making this thread remotely interesting.
So you agree that changing 2 locations to 1 can happen just in a normal memory lapse??
__________________
________________________
OnlyTellsTruths is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2012, 11:38 PM   #127
Amazer
Graduate Poster
 
Amazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,205
Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
So you agree that changing 2 locations to 1 can happen just in a normal memory lapse??
Sure it can.... if you are mindlessly committed to GZ being innocent no matter what.
Amazer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 12:35 AM   #128
crimresearch
Alumbrado
 
crimresearch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 10,600
Quote:
refused to identify himself as Captain of the Watch,
crimresearch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 12:38 AM   #129
crimresearch
Alumbrado
 
crimresearch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 10,600
Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
Sure it can.... if you are mindlessly committed to GZ being innocent no matter what.
So when you make bizarre assertions that bear no resemblance to reality, and run away when asked to explain, that isn't 'mindless'?
crimresearch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 01:26 AM   #130
Dcdrac
Philosopher
 
Dcdrac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,028
Originally Posted by Rare Truth View Post
All those molehills of inconsistencies, compounded, turn into a mountain of lies.
After to listening to those tapes its clear to me that GZ is acting like a child caught stealing swees and trying to get off the hook.


I stand by the mpressin I formed at the begining not murder but manslaughter casuded by GZ's reckless behaviour.

His amply proven lying and convulations are not helping him at all if anything they are making him look a right dodgy geezer.
Dcdrac is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 01:50 AM   #131
OnlyTellsTruths
 
OnlyTellsTruths's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,115
Originally Posted by crimresearch View Post
So when you make bizarre assertions that bear no resemblance to reality, and run away when asked to explain, that isn't 'mindless'?
I'm curious crimresearch, did you listen to the new tapes??
__________________
________________________
OnlyTellsTruths is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 01:52 AM   #132
Noztradamus
Master Poster
 
Noztradamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,322
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Also, although you can hear his door open, the "you're doing something wrong" car jingle turn on, and then him close his door, we never hear his engine accelerate in his recording. My guess is that Zimmerman was driving up Twin Trees, spotted Martin, and pulled over on the east-west portion of the street. Although he thinks Martin is coming to "check [him] out", Martin was really just walking home. And when Martin runs, Zimmerman has to turn around to get a flashlight, get his keys, open his door, and so forth, and this is why he has no idea where Martin went once he finally gets out of his car.

I mean, if he's facing his car at the dog path, and sees Trayvon slip between the houses, come back, and then run off again, how on earth did he lose sight of him? His headlights should let him see exactly whic direction Martn goes.

And about the dispatcher asking for an address, that only happens after Zimmerman got out of his car.
I don't think George was on Twin Trees before following Martin
1. Twin Trees is not on the way to anywhere
2. George is not familair with it
3. He claims his suspicions were raises seeing Martin by Frank Taffe's house, That's on RVC. I don't think George is stupid enough to lie about being on RVC if he wasn't.

But as George gets out of his car on Twin Trees only 2 minutes after calling the NEN, it couldn't have started where he said, "parked a few feet away" hrom Frank Taffe's house. (Apart from the absence of "car starting vroom vroom" noises on the NEN tape)

But I agree, he headlights could not have been pointing towards the walkway T. he must have turned his truck around
__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.
Noztradamus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 03:52 AM   #133
quadraginta
What was the question?
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 9,908
Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
I don't think George was on Twin Trees before following Martin
1. Twin Trees is not on the way to anywhere
2. George is not familair with it
3. He claims his suspicions were raises seeing Martin by Frank Taffe's house, That's on RVC. I don't think George is stupid enough to lie about being on RVC if he wasn't.

But as George gets out of his car on Twin Trees only 2 minutes after calling the NEN, it couldn't have started where he said, "parked a few feet away" hrom Frank Taffe's house. (Apart from the absence of "car starting vroom vroom" noises on the NEN tape)

But I agree, he headlights could not have been pointing towards the walkway T. he must have turned his truck around

I have a problem with item #2 on your list.

How could George not be familiar with Twin Trees? Aside from the perimeter road there are only two streets in the apartment complex. No "dead ends", no cul de sacs, no little internal loop roads. The average mall these days is more complicated.

And this is a dude who wants to run the Neighborhood Watch.

Now, I think that most of us can agree that Z isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but to be unfamiliar with either of the only two little, bitty streets inside the loop in that development isn't much of a challenge. Both of them together barely offer 600 yds. of street to be familiar with.
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 04:26 AM   #134
Dcdrac
Philosopher
 
Dcdrac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,028
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I have a problem with item #2 on your list.

How could George not be familiar with Twin Trees? Aside from the perimeter road there are only two streets in the apartment complex. No "dead ends", no cul de sacs, no little internal loop roads. The average mall these days is more complicated.

And this is a dude who wants to run the Neighborhood Watch.

Now, I think that most of us can agree that Z isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but to be unfamiliar with either of the only two little, bitty streets inside the loop in that development isn't much of a challenge. Both of them together barely offer 600 yds. of street to be familiar with.
At best the man was a bumbling well intentioned wannabe police officer amatuer the worst case scenario for a Neighbourhood Watch operative.

At worst he was a self appointed bumbling wannabe Dirty Harry

Either way his actions certainly led to a tragedy.

In this thread i beleive it has been forgotten who the victim is here

Traynor Martin
Dcdrac is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 04:46 AM   #135
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 36,156
Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Hmmm ham bush!
Bush whack
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 04:48 AM   #136
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 36,156
Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
Sure it can.... if you are mindlessly committed to GZ being innocent no matter what.
Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
So you agree that changing 2 locations to 1 can happen just in a normal memory lapse??
My memory is quite faulty.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 04:54 AM   #137
KatieG
Master Poster
 
KatieG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: at the end of the Oregon Trail
Posts: 2,689
Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
At best the man was a bumbling well intentioned wannabe police officer amatuer the worst case scenario for a Neighbourhood Watch operative.

At worst he was a self appointed bumbling wannabe Dirty Harry

Either way his actions certainly led to a tragedy.

In this thread i beleive it has been forgotten who the victim is here

Traynor Martin
Errr.....Trayvon Martin.
__________________
“In my dreams I am not crippled. In my dreams, I dance.” ~~ Louise Brooks

When Aphrodite lies around naked in a giant clam shell she's a "goddess" but when I do it I'm "drunk" and "not welcome at this aquarium anymore, ma'am."
KatieG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 05:16 AM   #138
quadraginta
What was the question?
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 9,908
Originally Posted by KatieG View Post
Errr.....Trayvon Martin.

Ouch!
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 06:39 AM   #139
Unabogie
Philosopher
 
Unabogie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,688
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I have a problem with item #2 on your list.

How could George not be familiar with Twin Trees? Aside from the perimeter road there are only two streets in the apartment complex. No "dead ends", no cul de sacs, no little internal loop roads. The average mall these days is more complicated.

And this is a dude who wants to run the Neighborhood Watch.

Now, I think that most of us can agree that Z isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but to be unfamiliar with either of the only two little, bitty streets inside the loop in that development isn't much of a challenge. Both of them together barely offer 600 yds. of street to be familiar with.
George also says he walks his dog there, so that's evidence he knows that street.
Unabogie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 06:41 AM   #140
bynmdsue
Graduate Poster
 
bynmdsue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,892
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Yeah, that's what happened. The kid without a violent history decided to wait in ambush and murder Zimmerman... for some reason.

That's much more plausible than a proven liar telling lies to cover his ass.
Go back and reread Noztradamus' post in #110
Quote:
Now that doesn't change either your or my reconstruction timing of what happened during Martin's journey from 1440 RVC to the walkway tee, just places it 1'40" earlier.

This allows George time after the NEN call to return to his truck, Martin to retrurn and "circle the truck"

7:14:30 Zimmerman gets back to his SUV and is waiting for the police to arrive. Suddenly, there’s a knock at the window, it’s Trayvon.

“Why are you following me?”

“I’m not.”

Trayvon starts to walk away, then runs, between buildings

Zimmerman decides he wants to keep Martin in sight.

Martin leaps out of bushes, fight, "BANG" as before
GZ has returned to his vehicle and is waiting for the police when TM approaches, knocks on the window and runs off and lays in wait for GZ to follow. That's an ambush.
bynmdsue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 06:42 AM   #141
Dcdrac
Philosopher
 
Dcdrac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,028
yes sorry Trayvon Martin knew I should have had that 2nd mug of coffee....
Dcdrac is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 06:52 AM   #142
Unabogie
Philosopher
 
Unabogie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,688
Originally Posted by bynmdsue View Post
Go back and reread Noztradamus' post in #110

GZ has returned to his vehicle and is waiting for the police when TM approaches, knocks on the window and runs off and lays in wait for GZ to follow. That's an ambush.
You're very ignorant of the facts, then. That never happened. Unless you're saying George is lying and leaving it out?

Last edited by Unabogie; 24th June 2012 at 06:53 AM.
Unabogie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 07:00 AM   #143
quadraginta
What was the question?
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 9,908
Originally Posted by bynmdsue View Post
Go back and reread Noztradamus' post in #110

GZ has returned to his vehicle and is waiting for the police when TM approaches, knocks on the window and runs off and lays in wait for GZ to follow. That's an ambush.

It would be if it happened that way.

Even if it did happen that way, though, now you've got Z, who has already been admonished not to follow and acknowledged that caution, who knows (as NW superhero captain) that not only is he not supposed to pursue, but he isn't supposed to be armed and do it, getting out of his vehicle again, with his gun, and following someone he now believes is hostile instead of waiting for the cops who are minutes away. That's an idiot.

Or someone looking for a confrontation.

If he's an idiot then Manslaughter is probably fair.

If he went looking for trouble, as you seem to be suggesting, then there's good reason to contemplate Murder II.

I don't think your scenario is in Z's best interest.
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 07:16 AM   #144
Natural Born Skeptic
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,456
Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Personal attacks are all you have?
Pointing out your irrationality is not a "personal attack".
Quote:
It used to be we had to wait to hear George's account. We could speculate that he told a coherent tale and talk about watermelon lean. Now we have his words, and I've pointed out to everyone how implausible his story is.
You've pointed out to everyone that you think his story is implausible. Since you find every aspect of it implausible including parts that are not remotely suspicious, that amounts to about 0.
Quote:
The detectives clearly saw right through him and didnt buy his story either. Now he will have to account for what he did. Yep, I'm enjoying this part.
Once again you clearly hear what you want to hear, since it would appear that the police had different opinions on the matter. Its humorous that you've convinced yourself thepolice "saw right through him" because they followed normal investigative techniques. Its also humorous that suddenly serino is your hero whereas previously the police were incompetent.
Natural Born Skeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 07:24 AM   #145
Unabogie
Philosopher
 
Unabogie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,688
Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic View Post
Pointing out your irrationality is not a "personal attack".

You've pointed out to everyone that you think his story is implausible. Since you find every aspect of it implausible including parts that are not remotely suspicious, that amounts to about 0.

Once again you clearly hear what you want to hear, since it would appear that the police had different opinions on the matter. Its humorous that you've convinced yourself thepolice "saw right through him" because they followed normal investigative techniques. Its also humorous that suddenly serino is your hero whereas previously the police were incompetent.
Yep.
Unabogie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 07:26 AM   #146
Natural Born Skeptic
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,456
Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
So you agree that changing 2 locations to 1 can happen just in a normal memory lapse??
I think you are really asking two different questions. If the question is can a person that is telling the truth experience such a lapse, the incontrovertible answer is yes. As has been explained, that's the way memory works, and we have a mountain of evidence to know that. If you are asking if I think he is telling the truth about all aspects of the encounter, I don't know.
Natural Born Skeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 07:28 AM   #147
Natural Born Skeptic
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,456
Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Yep.
Boy, you really proved me wrong there by highlighting the word you. Brilliant and insightful post!
Natural Born Skeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 07:29 AM   #148
Unabogie
Philosopher
 
Unabogie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,688
Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic View Post
Boy, you really proved me wrong there by highlighting the word you. Brilliant and insightful post!
Same to you.
Unabogie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 07:32 AM   #149
sgtbaker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,161
Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
So you agree that changing 2 locations to 1 can happen just in a normal memory lapse??
I will say yes, that is very likely.
sgtbaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 07:42 AM   #150
Natural Born Skeptic
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,456
Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
If you take into account the little rant of GZ about 'them always getting away', the fact that GZ left the car then I don't think it's a stretch to assume that GZ was the aggressor.
Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
Sure it can.... if you are mindlessly committed to GZ being innocent no matter what.
Hmm...I'm not the one who seems to think we should "assume" someone was the aggressor because it's "not a stretch". Likewise, not surprisingly, you miss the huge distinction between believing the evidence needs to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt versus your invention of "mindlessly committed to gz being innocent no matter what". I think the guy could be lying, show us the evidence andvthe contradictions. Wild unprovable theories driven by hatred of gz need not apply.
Natural Born Skeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 07:43 AM   #151
sgtbaker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,161
Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
George also says he walks his dog there, so that's evidence he knows that street.
That's evidence that he walks his dog there. My community is set up like this; there is a main road that is the shape of a circle. Four mini-subdivisions surround the circle, each on a different road. I use that circle road, every single day to drive out of my neighborhood. For a change of scenery, I walk down to the circle to run, because it is exactly a quarter mile. I know the name of one road, the one I live on. I hope I am never in a situation where I would have to recall the names of the other roads because, well, I've never bothered to look at the road signs.
sgtbaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 07:44 AM   #152
TheL8Elvis
Illuminator
 
TheL8Elvis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 4,999
Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
Note that you say "going to the racetrack" is the activity instead of running in the race! That's not gonna just squeak through without people noticing!

I'll make this simple.
The specific activity is a track&field sprint race between 10 runners.

Those 10 runners are "physically involved" in that specific activity during the race.

Everyone else, including the people in the stands, everyone else, is not physically involved in that specific activity.
Do you agree with that or not?

If not, please elaborate.
I do agree. Therefor, George was not involved with the specific activity of acting suspicious and wandering about like TM. He was engaged in a different activity, being the eyes and ears of the police.

See, when you make the specific 'physical activities' arbitrary, it's easy to make the point whichever way you want.
TheL8Elvis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 07:46 AM   #153
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 54,948
Originally Posted by sgtbaker View Post
Seriously, have you ever watched Randi's videos proving how bad our memory is when talking to a pscychic? There was one where he had a woman get a psychic reading. She was supposed to tell the psychic every time she got something wrong. Then he listens to the recording and counts how many times they psychic got something wrong. The woman's answer was in the low tens. James Randi said he counted something in the 40's guesses the psychic got wrong. We do not have perfect memories. Our brains don't always remember things in the correct order.
And that's just it, the posters here decrying the "inconsistencies" in Zimmerman's story are harping on minor details that are well within the range of honest mistakes due to fallible memory. There's nothing there as far as I can tell that shows any material inconsistencies.

Ask anyone to report an experience several times over several days, and you will get different variations with each telling, it's just the way memory works.
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 07:49 AM   #154
TheL8Elvis
Illuminator
 
TheL8Elvis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 4,999
Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post

GZ clearly states he was telling the "John" to help, and that matches exactly with "Johns" initial witness statement. Someone care to explain that away ?
For all the inconsistencies people are pointing out, I would like to focus on at least once consistent element ... will someone help me understand what the scenario was where:

TM was screaming in fear the entire time, as his mother and father have claimed.

AND

GZ tells the story of how he is under TM, and pleads to "John" to help, which agrees with what "Johns" initial witness statement said.
TheL8Elvis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 07:55 AM   #155
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 54,948
Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
At best the man was a bumbling well intentioned wannabe police officer amatuer the worst case scenario for a Neighbourhood Watch operative.

At worst he was a self appointed bumbling wannabe Dirty Harry

Either way his actions certainly led to a tragedy.

In this thread i beleive it has been forgotten who the victim is here

Traynor Martin
You rail against Zimmerman for not knowing the streets in his community and find that as evidence to convict him of homicide, yet here we are hundreds of pages into this thread and you can't even get Trayvon Martin's name correct.

Memory is a funny thing, eh?
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 08:10 AM   #156
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 9,109
Originally Posted by sgtbaker View Post
I will say yes, that is very likely.
Really? So when faced with inconsistencies in the testimony of an accused murderer we know is dishonest, the most likely scenario is that those inconsistencies are due to innocent lapses in memory?

February 26th NEN call:
Quote:
Dispatcher: Are you following him.

Zimmerman: Yeah.
February 29th interview with Investigator Serino:
Quote:
Zimmerman: I wasn't following him. I was just going in the same direction he was.

How about that one? Just another perfectly innocent memory lapse?
__________________
Lost your faith in humanity?

Click here to have it restored.

Or here.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 08:13 AM   #157
Bob001
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,969
Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
.... 19:11:16 Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, ~~~~ the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.

19:12:00 Dispatcher: Okay—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
Just an observation here: Note that these events occurred just after 7 p.m. on a Sunday. In most areas, that's a time when a lot of people are on the streets: They're coming home from whatever they did during the day, going shopping (like GZ himself), visiting friends, going out for the evening, etc., etc. Does anybody think it says a lot -- and nothing good -- about GZ's state of mind that he felt compelled to call the police just because he saw one black teen-ager walking down the street at 7 p.m.? This was a suburban townhouse development, not a farm road in Idaho. Why wouldn't people be walking around? I would be willing to cut GZ some slack if he saw somebody lurking in his own backyard at 3 a.m. But it really sounds like GZ was hunting for trouble with no good reason.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 08:28 AM   #158
Unabogie
Philosopher
 
Unabogie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,688
Originally Posted by sgtbaker View Post
I will say yes, that is very likely.
This I find problematic and I'm concerned you're rationalizing this away.

Let me first touch on the other comment about him walking his dog:

Yes, I agree that it's plausible he didn't know his streets. While walking his dog and being the NW person should make that less likely, he shows he's not good with directions, so I'll grant you he could have been unsure about the address. Where I think he is lying is where he uses that as his reason for exiting the car "just to look for a street sign". In the NEN he says he's following Trayvon. And you can clearly hear him running. When he later claims he wasn''t following him and was only looking for a street sign, it's not plausible. And it isn't an innocent memory lapse since it's clearly self serving and affects his culpability.

On the issue of the "circling", there is no innocent explanation. In the NEN call, the only close contact he has with Trayvon is within about 15 seconds of the start of the call. That means one of two things:
  1. He parked at the clubhouse as he says in the walkthrough and Trayvon was merely walking past the car on his way home.
  2. He never parked at the clubhouse at all and made that up.
For Trayvon to have walked past the T, come back out onto the street in order to circle the car, George would have had to have started the call near the T. He clearly says this isn't how it happens and if it did, it drastically changes the nature of events.


Therefore, I think this proves the circling at the T, and Trayvon coming back out onto the street from behind the row houses, never happened. I think there is ample evidence that this is impossible and therefore George made it up. If he made up something as inflammatory as Trayvon circling his car, and included such detail as how he turned the corner, but came back out to the street while George waiting with his windows rolled up, in fear, is this defensible?

ETA: I think the most reasonable choice is option #1 above. Trayvon really did walk past his car with his hands in his waistband, holding his drink. This is just a demonstration of George's bad judgment, but it fits the facts. I think he added the part about circling his car to embellish his tale, and unfortunately for him, this embellishment is easily discredited, which is why I keep coming back it as one of the worst of his lies.

Last edited by Unabogie; 24th June 2012 at 08:54 AM.
Unabogie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 08:35 AM   #159
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 9,109
Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic View Post
... the evidence needs to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt...
Since this has become the new favorite meme of the Zimmerman fans, I'd like to point out that at this time and in this setting it's a stupid standard.

First of all, I don't recall seeing anyone assert Zimmerman is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of murder, and should therefore be convicted. What seems to be the consensus is the belief that he will be convicted or plead down to manslaughter based on an interpretation of the evidence thus far not being favorable to him.

Secondly, determining "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt" is a legal standard that applies to a court of law after all the evidence has been presented and the prosecution has made their case. We have yet to see all the evidence or hear the prosecution's case, so it's kind of silly to demand that rigid legal standard be applied now.

Furthermore, this is not a jury room in which we are deliberating the case. This is a discussion forum in which we casually express our opinions. Some of us think Zimmerman is guilty of a crime. Whether he is eventually convicted of that crime is a whole other matter, but that has no bearing on this discussion here and now.

The evidence may turn out to be insufficient to prove guilt of any crime beyond a reasonable doubt, or the prosecution may fail to successfully make their case. But that won't necessarily mean Zimmerman is innocent (unless anyone here actually thinks O.J. didn't do it). And his guilt or innocence as a matter of fact rather than a matter of law is a perfectly valid issue to discuss.
__________________
Lost your faith in humanity?

Click here to have it restored.

Or here.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2012, 08:43 AM   #160
Unabogie
Philosopher
 
Unabogie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,688
Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
For all the inconsistencies people are pointing out, I would like to focus on at least once consistent element ... will someone help me understand what the scenario was where:

TM was screaming in fear the entire time, as his mother and father have claimed.

AND

GZ tells the story of how he is under TM, and pleads to "John" to help, which agrees with what "Johns" initial witness statement said.
Maybe they were both yelling? I told you, in my scenario, George is attempting his version of a citizen's arrest. Trayvon may have punched him, and he felt justified in taking Trayvvon down. This would explain why the scene had moved 25' south from the T. So George was yelling for help, but not because he was being pummelled. He may have been telling the truth about begging for help subduing Trayvon, only that happened before the shooting, not after. Isn't that plausible? Trayvon was yelling for his own reasons, since he was being manhandled by this "creepy", "angry" guy for no reason. At this point, don't they both have reason to scream? Maybe they were.
Unabogie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:17 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.