ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags World War II history

Reply
Old 27th June 2012, 02:29 PM   #1
MG1962
Penultimate Amazing
 
MG1962's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,389
Allied defections in WW2

I was watching an episode of the old Rat Patrol in which a high ranking British officer defects to the Germans.

That got me thinking. Does anyone recall any western allied officers that defected to the German or even Japanese side during the war?
MG1962 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2012, 02:34 PM   #2
Marduk
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,242
The SS had a british division, the British Free Corps, there were a few who believed in National socialism, but mainly allied prisoners thought it was a cushy propoganda unit and they wouldn't have to fight
Next stop Soviet Russia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Free_Corps
they were founded by an Englishman, John Amery, who wasn't an officer or even in the Army
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Amery

a handful were actually executed by the British for high treason

then there were some famous civilians who went too far
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Joyce

Last edited by Marduk; 27th June 2012 at 02:40 PM.
Marduk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2012, 02:42 PM   #3
geni
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
geni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,286
Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
I was watching an episode of the old Rat Patrol in which a high ranking British officer defects to the Germans.

That got me thinking. Does anyone recall any western allied officers that defected to the German or even Japanese side during the war?
Quite a lot in the various occupied countries for a range of reasons.

Assuming you are limiting it to non occupied then not really. A handful of other ranks yes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Free_Corps

Officers? Baillie-Stewart was pre-war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Baillie-Stewart

I seem to recall that the germans did mange to sort of recruit one officer to the British Free Corps but he was too mentally ill for even a nominal command and was transfered a hospital shortly afterwards.
geni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2012, 08:08 PM   #4
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 10,328
Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
I was watching an episode of the old Rat Patrol in which a high ranking British officer defects to the Germans.

That got me thinking. Does anyone recall any western allied officers that defected to the German or even Japanese side during the war?
The Japanese were able to raise a whole "Indian National Army" from defecting Indian POWs and Indian expatriates. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Army. But that's a special case, relating to a subject population.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2012, 08:15 PM   #5
MG1962
Penultimate Amazing
 
MG1962's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,389
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
The Japanese were able to raise a whole "Indian National Army" from defecting Indian POWs and Indian expatriates. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Army. But that's a special case, relating to a subject population.
Thanks for that - I knew the Japanese were trying to organize an army, but I did not realize they had gone that far
MG1962 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2012, 04:57 AM   #6
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 19,835
Well there was the case of William JoyceWP who issued anti British propaganda during WW2. He was hanged for treason for holding a British passport after WW2.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2012, 05:23 AM   #7
Border Reiver
Illuminator
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,274
There were a large number of western Europeans who joined with the Germans:

The Waffen SS had a large number of foreign units from the miniscule British one (if memory serves it never got bigger than about 50 or so pers), along with French, Flemish, Walloon, and Scandinavian "divisions" (not sure if they really got to divisional size, but that's what they were called), but the German army also got into the act with foreign units (same nationalities, plus Spanish, and from POWs even Indian).
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2012, 09:24 PM   #8
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 14,311
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Well there was the case of William JoyceWP who issued anti British propaganda during WW2. He was hanged for treason for holding a British passport after WW2.
There is talk that he shouldn't have been hanged for treason because he was an American citizen rather than a British one. Yet, if he had been acquitted I would have hoped someone would have had the good sense to push him down the courtroom steps. Repeatedly if need be.
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2012, 03:52 AM   #9
Croydon Bob
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 468
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
There is talk that he shouldn't have been hanged for treason because he was an American citizen rather than a British one. Yet, if he had been acquitted I would have hoped someone would have had the good sense to push him down the courtroom steps. Repeatedly if need be.
At various points in his life he had been an American, Irish and German citizen, but he had a fake British passport and they used that to get him. His stupid fault really.

He was a complicated character. A Roman Catholic Irish American who was pro-Unionist when living in Ireland and came to London where he was a member of the Conservative Party then the British Union of Facists before defecting to Germany.

But he's not a good example of a defection as set out in the OP as he was not in the military. Very few western allied officers defected to the Germans or Japanese during the war.

There was, of course, plenty of defection within Italy, the Baltic states; various eastern europeans switched sides between the Germans and Russians. I'm no expert, I'm sure someone else knows about this stuff.
Croydon Bob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2012, 04:24 AM   #10
Gawdzilla
121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy
 
Gawdzilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri.
Posts: 20,611
Wasn't the American Nazi in "Slaughterhouse Five" based on a real character?
__________________
World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources
Hyperwar, WWII Military History
Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.
Gawdzilla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2012, 04:27 AM   #11
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 19,835
Originally Posted by Croydon Bob View Post
<snip>

There was, of course, plenty of defection within Italy, the Baltic states; various eastern europeans switched sides between the Germans and Russians. I'm no expert, I'm sure someone else knows about this stuff.
There is also the case of France, which was on both sides of the war.
- Some French ships were sunk by the British to prevent them falling into the hands of the Germans.
- When the Germans took over the rest of France not one shot was fired to resist them.
- When the allies invaded the French territories of North Africa the French opposed the landing.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2012, 04:40 AM   #12
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 10,328
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
There is also the case of France, which was on both sides of the war.
- Some French ships were sunk by the British to prevent them falling into the hands of the Germans.
- When the Germans took over the rest of France not one shot was fired to resist them.
- When the allies invaded the French territories of North Africa the French opposed the landing.
Better to say, there were two movements of French people. The quisling Petain regime you describe, and the Free French, who organised themselves to fight after the capitulation of their government. The second of these movements provided the Resistance internally within France. Within a few hundred metres of the place where I write this, in central Italy, there is a monument to over a hundred French soldiers who died taking the highest local hill from the Germans in 1943. And a huge French military cemetery is within 8 km of this location.

The USA recognised the Petain regime, and had diplomatic relations with it. See wiki list of US ambassadors to France.
Quote:
William D. Leahy 1941–1942. After Leahy left, S. Pinkney Tuck served as interim Chargé d'affaires until France severed diplomatic relations with the U.S. on November 8, 1942, the date of Operation Torch.[The Allied invasion of French North Africa]

Last edited by Craig B; 29th June 2012 at 04:49 AM.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2012, 04:44 AM   #13
KDLarsen
Master Poster
 
KDLarsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,571
And of course, the legendary case of Kyoungjong Yang, who managed to fight for the Imperial Japanese Army, the Red Army, and the Wehrmacht.

Though that wasn't as much a case of defection, as being given a rifle and told where to go.
KDLarsen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2012, 08:42 AM   #14
kedo1981
Master Poster
 
kedo1981's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,490
Read or watch "Mother Night"
__________________
"The dinosaurs never saw it coming; whats our excuse?" "Carl Sagan, Ann Druyan, Steven soter, Neil deGrasse Tyson

I readily admit I don’t know enough to say for sure that there is no God.
But I do know enough so say that anyone who claims to know the mind and will of a being such as God is a liar.
kedo1981 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2012, 01:45 PM   #15
Bell
beautiful freak
 
Bell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 21,335
How about the "Volksdeutsche" (as portrayed in the "Band of Brothers" episode "Day of Days" for example) who returned to Germany from abroad to fight in the war? I have no ideas about the numbers though.
__________________
Every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me, that's on the worst day of my life.

INY
You gotta love cops.
Bell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2012, 03:17 PM   #16
Gawdzilla
121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy
 
Gawdzilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri.
Posts: 20,611
One of the six Nazi saboteurs landed in the US by U-boat was either naturalized or native American. He got life instead of execution for going grass on the other five.
__________________
World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources
Hyperwar, WWII Military History
Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.
Gawdzilla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2012, 03:37 PM   #17
Hans
Illuminator
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,545
Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
Thanks for that - I knew the Japanese were trying to organize an army, but I did not realize they had gone that far
I can recommend a book by Joyce C. Lebra, Japanese-trained armies in Southeast Asia, ISBN 0-231-03995-6
Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2012, 03:40 PM   #18
Hans
Illuminator
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,545
There were some American born folks of Italian descent who went back to fight for Mussolini, one was killed in Ethiopia and another in Spain fighting for Franco (in the Italian volunteer corps), not sure what may have happened to the others after WWII proper started.

Edited to add

In a book called Fighting For Franco: International Volunteers in Nationalist Spain during the Spanish Civil War, 1936-39 (London: Leicester University Press, 2001). there was at least one American, airman Vincent Patriarcha, fighting for Franco's forces...but I'm not sure that is an Italian name!

Last edited by Hans; 29th June 2012 at 03:50 PM.
Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2012, 05:52 AM   #19
hgc
Penultimate Amazing
 
hgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 14,474
Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Wasn't the American Nazi in "Slaughterhouse Five" based on a real character?
That's Howard Campbell in Slaughterhouse-Five He's the main character of Vonnegut's novel from 8 years earlier, Mother Night (a beautiful book, and a good movie too, with Nick Nolte as Howard). William Joyce is a little bit similar. I don't know if Vonnegut uses any real person(s) as a basis. I always thought of Tokyo Rose in relation to Campbell.
__________________
My philosophy has always been expectations are your seeds of success. You're not going to get any more out of life than you expect. - Leroy "Pop" Miller

Last edited by hgc; 30th June 2012 at 05:54 AM.
hgc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2012, 08:24 AM   #20
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 12,573
Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
There were a large number of western Europeans who joined with the Germans:

The Waffen SS had a large number of foreign units from the miniscule British one (if memory serves it never got bigger than about 50 or so pers), along with French, Flemish, Walloon, and Scandinavian "divisions" (not sure if they really got to divisional size, but that's what they were called), but the German army also got into the act with foreign units (same nationalities, plus Spanish, and from POWs even Indian).
You forgot the Dutch which numbered around 25,000 volunteers and got their own division(s). I'm not aware though if there have been true defections, in the sense that soldiers who were first enlisted in the respective national armies later enlisted in the Waffen SS.
__________________
Proud member of the Solipsistic Autosycophant's Group
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2012, 01:06 PM   #21
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 10,328
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You forgot the Dutch which numbered around 25,000 volunteers and got their own division(s). I'm not aware though if there have been true defections, in the sense that soldiers who were first enlisted in the respective national armies later enlisted in the Waffen SS.
But your country is occupied by a ruthless enemy who has partly demolished one of its great cities and is deporting and killing a group of your fellow citizens. To fight for that occupying power may not technically be "defection"; "treason" is perhaps a better term. Did not even one former soldier of the army of the Netherlands later enlist in the Waffen SS units? That would be an admirable tribute to the Dutch army, if true.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2012, 10:20 PM   #22
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 14,311
Originally Posted by hgc View Post
That's Howard Campbell in Slaughterhouse-Five He's the main character of Vonnegut's novel from 8 years earlier, Mother Night (a beautiful book, and a good movie too, with Nick Nolte as Howard). William Joyce is a little bit similar. I don't know if Vonnegut uses any real person(s) as a basis. I always thought of Tokyo Rose in relation to Campbell.
It is an excellent book from what I remember but the important thing about the character is that he was never fanatical about any political beliefs and couldn't in any sense be said to have "defected" to Germany. He simply lived there before and after the Nazis came to power and went along with the broadcasts without any particular interest in them either way.

William Joyce was an utterly fanatical anti-semite and fascist who left the British Union of Fascists specifically because they were too mild and not anti-semitic enough for his tastes (though they were clearly anti-semitic by any reasonable standard).

In some ways, maybe someone slightly more similar to the character of Mother Night is P.G Wodehouse who was in France when the German army overran it and who also made propaganda broadcasts to America. Wodehouse considered his broadcasts to be tongue-in-cheek and thought people would grasp he was being ironic and stiff-upper-lipped at the time but he made people in Britain furious with this suspected collaborator.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/w...y-foolish.html
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2012, 01:54 AM   #23
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 12,573
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
But your country is occupied by a ruthless enemy who has partly demolished one of its great cities and is deporting and killing a group of your fellow citizens. To fight for that occupying power may not technically be "defection"; "treason" is perhaps a better term. Did not even one former soldier of the army of the Netherlands later enlist in the Waffen SS units? That would be an admirable tribute to the Dutch army, if true.
It means I'm an idiot for writing that. There have undoubtedly been several or even many, especially as the Dutch army was a conscript army. In fact, Seyffardt, the commander of the Nederlandse SS, the forerunner of the Dutch Waffen-SS units, was a retired lieutenant-general. He was killed by the Resistance in 1943.

And I wholeheartedly agree with calling it treason. Those who enlisted in the Waffen-SS got their Dutch nationality taken away - by then, the general rule was that you lost your Dutch nationality when entering foreign military service. Most or all of them got it back in the mid-50s though.

ETA: In 1953, a new law was introduced under which light cases could get their Dutch nationality back. I found no definitive numbers, but there's a database online with 11,500 cases who got the nationality back.
__________________
Proud member of the Solipsistic Autosycophant's Group

Last edited by ddt; 1st July 2012 at 02:43 AM.
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2012, 06:07 AM   #24
hgc
Penultimate Amazing
 
hgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 14,474
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
It is an excellent book from what I remember but the important thing about the character is that he was never fanatical about any political beliefs and couldn't in any sense be said to have "defected" to Germany. He simply lived there before and after the Nazis came to power and went along with the broadcasts without any particular interest in them either way.

William Joyce was an utterly fanatical anti-semite and fascist who left the British Union of Fascists specifically because they were too mild and not anti-semitic enough for his tastes (though they were clearly anti-semitic by any reasonable standard).

In some ways, maybe someone slightly more similar to the character of Mother Night is P.G Wodehouse who was in France when the German army overran it and who also made propaganda broadcasts to America. Wodehouse considered his broadcasts to be tongue-in-cheek and thought people would grasp he was being ironic and stiff-upper-lipped at the time but he made people in Britain furious with this suspected collaborator.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/w...y-foolish.html
You know that about Campbell because you have access to Mother Night's narrative. As far as (most of) the other characters and the general public in the book are concerned, Campbell was as you described Joyce -- fanatical anti-semite, dedicated Nazi.
__________________
My philosophy has always been expectations are your seeds of success. You're not going to get any more out of life than you expect. - Leroy "Pop" Miller
hgc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2012, 09:09 AM   #25
SpitfireIX
Illuminator
 
SpitfireIX's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,504
Martin James MontiWP

Quote:
Martin James Monti (October 24, 1921 – September 11, 2000) was a United States airman who enlisted in the Army Air Forces as an aviation cadet. . . . He took note that an aircraft, a reconnaissance version of the P-38 Lightning, needed work and required a test flight after repairs. He stole the aircraft and flew to Milan. There, he surrendered, or rather defected to Germany, and subsequently began work as a propaganda broadcaster under the pseudonym of "Captain Martin Wiethaupt".

At the end of 1944, Monti made a microphone test at the recording studio of the SS Standarte ‘Kurt Eggers’, a propaganda unit of the Waffen-SS, under the direction of Guenter d'Alquen, in Berlin, Germany. He later joined them as a SS-Untersturmführer and participated in writing and composing a leaflet to be distributed by members of the German military forces, and among members of the U.S. and Allied Nations, who were held as POW's. At the end of the war Monti was in Italy where he surrendered to the Americans (still wearing his SS uniform). In 1946, he was sentenced to 15 years in prison on the charge of desertion, but was pardoned within a year on condition he join the army. He was serving as a sergeant when the FBI rearrested him in 1948. He was charged with treason, as his propaganda activities as "Martin Wiethaupt" had been discovered by the FBI, and sentenced to 25 years in prison. Monti was paroled in 1960.
__________________
Handy responses to conspiracy theorists' claims:
1) "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." --Charles Babbage
2) "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." --Wolfgang Pauli
3) "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya
SpitfireIX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2012, 02:54 PM   #26
Jarlaxle
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 459
I recall one of the last defenders of Berlin was the SS-Charlemagne division, made up of French volunteers.
Jarlaxle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2012, 05:30 PM   #27
Carnivore
Salad Dodger
 
Carnivore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 1,461
Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
One of the six Nazi saboteurs landed in the US by U-boat was either naturalized or native American. He got life instead of execution for going grass on the other five.
That's almost a reverse example. Two of them were US citizens. One of the Americans and one of the Germans were actively working against the Nazis and were gathering intelligence on German espionage activities while they trained for the mission. They intended to go over to the Americans as soon as they were put ashore.

The German defector, George Dasch headed straight to Washington DC and turned himself in to the FBI. Unfortunately, they refused to believe his story and sent him away. He had to come back and demand to speak to someone in authority but was still not believed until he handed over the mission's entire operating fund, $84,000.

At that point the FBI leaped into action and arrested the rest of the group based on Dasch's information. He and the American defector, Ernst Burger, cooperated fully and provided the FBI with valuable information about Germany's spying capabilities.

The FBI kept them sequestered and issued press releases describing the arrests as the result of an elaborate counter espionage operation by the heroic agents of the Bureau. No mention was made of the fact that anyone had turned themselves in.

Dasch and Burger were promised pardons by J. Edgar Hoover for their cooperation but this was repudiated by Roosevelt, who formed a military commission to try all six in secret. All were convicted and sentenced to death.

At Hoover's urging, Dasch and Burger had their sentences commuted to life without parole. Truman exercised executive clemency in 1948 and had them deported.

There seems little doubt that if Dasch and Burger had not gone over to the US side the group would have had at least some success in their planned campaign of terrorist and sabotage bombings.
__________________
"It's backwards thinking like this that made me leave Manchester. You Guinness swilling, Marmite blaspheming animal." - Malfie Henpox
Carnivore is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2012, 05:38 PM   #28
Matthew Ellard
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,184
Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
I recall one of the last defenders of Berlin was the SS-Charlemagne division, made up of French volunteers.
Late SS Divisions from Allied Nationalities
34th SS Friewilligen Grenadier Division "Landstorm Nederland" ( Dutch)
33rd SS Waffen Grenadier Division "Charlemange" (French)
31st SS Friewilligen Grenadier Division (Czech & Dutch)
30th SS Waffen Grenadier Division (Russian)
29th SS Waffen Grenadier Division (Italian post fall of Italy)
28th SS Friewilligen Grenadier Division "Wallonien" (French speaking Belgiums)
27th SS Friewilligen Grenadier Division "Langmarck" (Flemish)
23rd Friewilligen Panzergrenadie Division "Nederland" (Dutch)

I have left out the SS divisions raised from Axis countries. These included Slavic SS divisions such as 13th SS Gebirgs "Division Handschar" which was Croatian. I also left out the Russian divisions as it is very mucky to follow.

I must add that as a general rule these divisions did not reach full strength, had German officers & NCOs and were more "mixed bags" of nationalities than their names suggest. They mostly met the horrible ends that they deserved.

"Waffen SS Divisions" / Chris Bishop / Spellmount Publishing 2007.
Matthew Ellard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2012, 07:35 PM   #29
SimonD
Rouge Element
 
SimonD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
I must add that as a general rule these divisions did not reach full strength, had German officers & NCOs and were more "mixed bags" of nationalities than their names suggest. They mostly met the horrible ends that they deserved.
They had nowhere else to go. Most of them had signed up during when Germany was 'winning' the war ('40-'41). They couldn't return to their countries or they would be shot or imprisoned.

It's ironic that most of the soldiers killed in the defence of Berlin came from the countries that Germany had recently conquered.
__________________
'Fear is the mind-killer' - Dune, Frank Herbert

'If there is an intelligent designer, why is the product so flawed?' - Diogenes

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...0&postcount=99
SimonD is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2012, 09:11 PM   #30
Noztradamus
Master Poster
 
Noztradamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,246
Originally Posted by Croydon Bob View Post
At various points in his life he had been an American, Irish and German citizen, but he had a fake British passport and they used that to get him. His stupid fault really.

.
Not fake, a genuine British passport issued in 1934 when he claimed to be a British subject.
It is usually mentioned that was falsely claimed British status, but if he was an Irish citizen who moved permanently to England before the establishment of the Irish Free State in 1922. I'm not sure he couldn't have succeeded in making a successful claim if he had presented those facts.
It depends whether the 15 year old Joyce was Irish or American in 1921.
__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.
Noztradamus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2012, 11:26 PM   #31
Matthew Ellard
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,184
Waffen SS divisions raised from Allied Nationalities

Originally Posted by SimonD View Post
They had nowhere else to go. Most of them had signed up during when Germany was 'winning' the war ('40-'41). They couldn't return to their countries or they would be shot or imprisoned.
I agree with this view however I have little sympathy for them. They continued to fight for a bad cause. Continuing to kill Allies was still continuing a "wrong". Surrender may have meant death but at least it would let innocent people fighting against Nazis live.
Matthew Ellard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2012, 02:27 AM   #32
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 12,573
Originally Posted by SimonD View Post
[color=black]They had nowhere else to go. Most of them had signed up during when Germany was 'winning' the war ('40-'41). They couldn't return to their countries or they would be shot or imprisoned.
Not quite true for the Dutch volunteers. This page gives a table of the (cumulative) number of conscripts, from German documents retrieved in Moscow. As you see, about half signed up in 1941-1942 and about half in 1943-1945. Though, to be fair, this may also be skewed in that in those later years, many volunteers were motivated by the wish to escape the Arbeitseinsatz (see here and here). Later politician Willem Aantjes is an example of that.
__________________
Proud member of the Solipsistic Autosycophant's Group
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2012, 08:08 AM   #33
catsmate1
Penultimate Amazing
 
catsmate1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,546
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
It is an excellent book from what I remember but the important thing about the character is that he was never fanatical about any political beliefs and couldn't in any sense be said to have "defected" to Germany. He simply lived there before and after the Nazis came to power and went along with the broadcasts without any particular interest in them either way.

William Joyce was an utterly fanatical anti-semite and fascist who left the British Union of Fascists specifically because they were too mild and not anti-semitic enough for his tastes (though they were clearly anti-semitic by any reasonable standard).

In some ways, maybe someone slightly more similar to the character of Mother Night is P.G Wodehouse who was in France when the German army overran it and who also made propaganda broadcasts to America. Wodehouse considered his broadcasts to be tongue-in-cheek and thought people would grasp he was being ironic and stiff-upper-lipped at the time but he made people in Britain furious with this suspected collaborator.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/w...y-foolish.html
There's a good overview of pre-war British fascist movements and personalities here.
catsmate1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2012, 07:39 PM   #34
KDLarsen
Master Poster
 
KDLarsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,571
Matthew, where would SS-Division "Wiking“ fit in? IIRC it had a mix of Nordic (Danes, Norwegians, Finns etc) volunteers as well as Dutch volunteers. One of the more notorious Danish volunteers, Søren KamWP served in that division. They also fought until quite late in the war.

Add to that you had Free Corps DenmarkWP, which later evolved into the Schalburg CorpsWP, but IIRC they never saw much action, apart from a fiery introduction to the Eastern Fornt in the Demyansk PocketWP, which saw their commander (a volatile characted by the name of CF von SchalburgWP) killed in one of their first actions.
KDLarsen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2012, 09:09 PM   #35
Robrob
Philosopher
 
Robrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,508
I vaguely recall a story (possibly from Cornelius Ryan's "The Longest Day") about a bunch of German prisoners who turned out to be impressed Mongolians. Something about them being drafted by the Japanese, being captured and impressed by the Russians, captured and impressed by the Germans, etc...
Robrob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2012, 10:26 PM   #36
Matthew Ellard
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,184
Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Matthew, where would SS-Division "Wiking“ fit in? IIRC it had a mix of Nordic (Danes, Norwegians, Finns etc) volunteers as well as Dutch volunteers. One of the more notorious Danish volunteers, Søren KamWP served in that division. They also fought until quite late in the war.
"The backbone of the 5th SS Panzer Division "Wiking" was the German experienced Germania Regiment of the SS-VT Division".....

"It was hoped that the bulk of its strength would be provided by Dutch, Flemish, Danish and Norwegian volunteers serving in the volunteer SS-Regiment Westland. This was a sop to the army, which had been complaining about the SS poaching the best German recruits".

"SS Infantrie-Regiment 11, a SS Totenkopfstandarden regiment replaced Germania Regiment". "Further strength was supplied by the transfer of of the SS Standarte Nordland" and "the addition of of a volunteer unit of Finns from the Finnisches Freiwilligen Batallion der Waffen SS Nordost".

"However in spite of the hopes of the SS to make it a Germanic volunteer formation, Germans always outnumbered Nordic volunteers in its ranks".


(Same book / Waffen SS Divisions / Chris Bishop / Spellmount Publishing 2007)

I have been careful to only mention SS divisions raised from Allied nationalities as this is the thread's topic.. Of course there are SS divisions, regiments and brigades raised from Axis nationalities. I was at the "Museum of Terror" in Budapest last week. The museum has a photo-montage of Germans destroying all the bridges across the Danube. I imagine Hungarian members of the SS were regretting joining on that day.
Matthew Ellard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2012, 10:31 PM   #37
Matthew Ellard
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,184
Originally Posted by Robrob View Post
I vaguely recall a story (possibly from Cornelius Ryan's "The Longest Day") about a bunch of German prisoners who turned out to be impressed Mongolians. Something about them being drafted by the Japanese, being captured and impressed by the Russians, captured and impressed by the Germans, etc...
Here is a picture for you of a Korean in German Army uniform with some further info.
http://thomo.coldie.net/wp-content/u...03/wwii438.jpg
Matthew Ellard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2012, 02:27 AM   #38
SimonD
Rouge Element
 
SimonD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard
I agree with this view however I have little sympathy for them. They continued to fight for a bad cause. Continuing to kill Allies was still continuing a "wrong". Surrender may have meant death but at least it would let innocent people fighting against Nazis live.
I think that is an overly simplistic view of what is right and wrong. While people may join an army for an ideal, there is more to why they continue to fight even when the cause becomes hopeless.

Men that train, fight and suffer under extreme conditions form a bond that goes beyond ideas. These men would have formed extremely strong and powerful friendships and would have stuck by their comrades, regardless of any concept of right or wrong.
__________________
'Fear is the mind-killer' - Dune, Frank Herbert

'If there is an intelligent designer, why is the product so flawed?' - Diogenes

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...0&postcount=99
SimonD is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2012, 02:48 AM   #39
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 14,311
Originally Posted by SimonD View Post
I think that is an overly simplistic view of what is right and wrong. While people may join an army for an ideal, there is more to why they continue to fight even when the cause becomes hopeless.

Men that train, fight and suffer under extreme conditions form a bond that goes beyond ideas. These men would have formed extremely strong and powerful friendships and would have stuck by their comrades, regardless of any concept of right or wrong.
That may be somewhat true but while we all know of people who fall in with the wrong crowd, there is presumably a wrong crowd to fall in with.
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2012, 03:23 AM   #40
SimonD
Rouge Element
 
SimonD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
That may be somewhat true but while we all know of people who fall in with the wrong crowd, there is presumably a wrong crowd to fall in with.
I agree and I am not trying to defend Nazism. I just think that it is too easy to say that everyone who fought for Germany was evil and everyone who fought for the Allies was good. On both sides, some people fought because they were believers, some for adventures, others to feed their families and some just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
__________________
'Fear is the mind-killer' - Dune, Frank Herbert

'If there is an intelligent designer, why is the product so flawed?' - Diogenes

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...0&postcount=99
SimonD is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:29 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.