Woodmorappe proving the Ark is possible.

tsig

a carbon based life-form
tsig
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AvalonXQ

The Woodmorappe book has arrived; I'm looking forward to see what it says. Feel free to ask me on some other thread or by PM if you're interested.

Do you agree with this?


Food in the form of hay, dried fruit, dried meat, and dried fish occupied up to 12% of the ark volume. Most of the food was hay, compressed or possibly pelletized to take up less space.

Drinking water took up about 10% of the ark volume. This could have been less if rain water was also collected from the roof.
 
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Hey, good deal.

I'll let you know what I think when I've seen Woodmorappe's figures.
 
Does it cover the massive amounts of urine and feces and how noah dealt with it?

Or how he kept the predators from eating the smaller animals?
 
how did the polar bears get there and how did they survive the jorney with out air condtioning, or did they evolve from brown bears AFTER the flood with magical super-duper ultra evolution
 
AvalonXQ said:
I think they evolved after. I'll see what he says.
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oh cool, that hypothesis makes it possible to make predicitons, like the transitional fossils in pretty new layers of earth. :D
 
I hear that the Ark Experience theme park in Kentucky is finding out that it isn't so easy.

They have funding problems, and they had to push back the start of construction until 2014 or later.
The theme park Ark doesn't even have to be seaworthy of course, but the "real" one did.
They plan to use four teams of Amish carpenters to build it (not sure how many men that is total, but at least a dozen) but Noah supposedly built it by himself.

I just hope they don't try to fill it with real animals, because that would be cruel.
 
Exactly how many species existed at that time? Well I guess roughly will do.

Did he take all the flora as well or is all that post flood?

Sorry I never gave much thought to the realities of the bible as I assumed they were fables.
 
Puppycow said:
They plan to use four teams of Amish carpenters to build it (not sure how many men that is total, but at least a dozen) but Noah supposedly built it by himself.
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Sure, but you can pay them in oatmeal, scrapple and beard wax.
 
Taking the story of the arc as literal is EXTREMELY silly. I would expect it from children, but from adults? At some point some people just need to grow up.
 
Puppycow said:
They plan to use four teams of Amish carpenters to build it (not sure how many men that is total, but at least a dozen) but Noah supposedly built it by himself..
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Noah took 120 years. I have a feeling the theme park wants it done more quickly.
 
The silliest thing about the Ark story for me is not even how tricky it would be to house so many animals on a boat. You have a God that is supposedly all-powerful, and a flood of water raining from the sky is the best way he can think of to cleanse the world? I have a hard time feeling for God's great compassion for the animals when he could simply have poofed all the wicked people out of existence, and left everything else unharmed.

This isn't a flaw in Christianity, it is a flaw in taking every word in the bible as the literal truth, with no allowance for parable. At least for me, trying to take it literally tends to diminish my impression of God to a rather limited entity...
 
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gnome said:
The silliest thing about the Ark story for me is not even how tricky it would be to house so many animals on a boat. You have a God that is supposedly all-powerful, and a flood of water raining from the sky is the best way he can think of to cleanse the world? I have a hard time feeling for God's great compassion for the animals when he could simply have poofed all the wicked people out of existence, and left everything else unharmed.

This isn't a flaw in Christianity, it is a flaw in taking every word in the bible as the literal truth, with no allowance for parable. At least for me, trying to take it literally tends to diminish my impression of God to a rather limited entity...
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Dear gnome,

(1) Because God is a God of emotion and symbolism. "Poofing" things carries very little symbolic weight. The tangible forces of nature being commanded by God creates an emotional effect that would otherwise be absent.

(2) What would the parable possibly mean, if it were truly just a parable?

Cpl Ferro
 
Quad4_72 said:
Taking the story of the arc as literal is EXTREMELY silly. I would expect it from children, but from adults? At some point some people just need to grow up.
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Nah, not when they are wearing these.

bible_blinders-1.jpg


:D
 
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CplFerro said:
(2) What would the parable possibly mean, if it were truly just a parable?
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"And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth." (Genesis 9:8-16)
 
The minimum viable population to prevent extinction due to inbreeding for most species is far higher than two. The Ark would have needed to carry hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of large mammals alone.
 
Quad4_72 said:
Taking the story of the arc as literal is EXTREMELY silly. I would expect it from children, but from adults? At some point some people just need to grow up.
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Shhh. This thread is basically a sequel on a previous one, where AvalonXQ announced he'd stop participating in the discussion:
AvalonXQ said:
Once this or any thread becomes a personal forum on my honesty or any other judgement of me as a person, I don't hesitate to drop it.

This one has. I'm done here.

The Woodmorappe book has arrived; I'm looking forward to see what it says. Feel free to ask me on some other thread or by PM if you're interested.
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Try not to give an excuse to drop this thread as well.

:popcorn6
 
According to the parameters of the story, YHWH drowned millions (perhaps billions) of innocent animals of every species, and human infants who were incapable of making moral choices or being held accountable for any supposedly evil deeds.

This represents a massive injustice, and whether it's true or nor (hint: it's not), the god responsible is not worthy of love or worship.
 
AvalonXQ said:
It does. Individual cages; a waste chute.
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1) Cages:

As if the rough construction of the ship weren't headache enough, the internal organization had to be honed to perfection. With space at a premium every cubit had to be utilized to the maximum; there was no room for oversized cages and wasted space. The various requirements of the myriads of animals had to be taken into account in the design of their quarters, especially considering the length of the voyage. The problems are legion: feeding and watering troughs need to be the correct height for easy access but not on the floor where they will get filthy; the cages for horned animals must have bars spaced properly to prevent their horns from getting stuck, while rhinos require round "bomas" for the same reason; a heavy leather body sling is "indispensable" for transporting giraffes; primates require tamper-proof locks on their doors; perches must be the correct diameter for each particular bird's foot (Hirst; Vincent). Even the flooring is important, for, if it is too hard, hooves may be injured, if too soft, they may grow too quickly and permanently damage ankles (Klos); rats will suffer decubitus (ulcers) with improper floors (Orlans), and ungulates must have a cleated surface or they will slip and fall (Fowler). These and countless other technical problems all had to be resolved before the first termite crawled aboard, but there were no wildlife management experts available for consultation. Even today the transport requirements of many species are not fully known, and it would be physically impossible to design a single carrier to meet them all. Apparently, when God first told Noah to build an ark, he supplied a complete set of blueprints and engineering details, constituting the most intricate and precise revelation ever vouchsafed to humankind.

2) Waste treatment:

All authorities on animal care insist on the cleanliness of the stalls, urging the daily removal of waste and soiled bedding. Neubuser remarks that "the removal of zoo waste presents almost insuperable difficulties" (p. 170); on the ark these must have multiplied manyfold. Creationists Balsiger and Sellier suggest that the bottom deck was used to store slurry, which accumulated to 800 tons during the voyage. However, a single adult elephant could produce 40 tons during this time (Coe), and there were many creatures even larger. Our average animal, the sheep, produces 0.34 tons per year; poultry, 0.047 (Sainsbury and Sainsbury, p. 110). Multiplying the number of vertebrates by 0.34, the seven pairs of birds by 0.047, yields 25,508 tons of waste—six times heavier than the ark itself! Of course, hibernation would greatly reduce this quantity, while the invertebrates and dinosaurs would add to it. Whatever the total, it would have been an awesome amount on the overcrowded boat, a breeder of infinite numbers of pathogens, and a source of noxious, choking fumes.

A comparison with Lamoureux's Guide to Ship Sanitation is instructive. Complex plumbing systems of pipes and pumps, air-gaps and back-flow valves, filters and chemical treatments are necessary to provide potable water and dispose of sewage. Waste is treated and dumped overboard, not discharged to the bilge as on the ark. Such technology was clearly beyond Noah's ability and the maintenance capabilities of his tiny crew; yet, if ever it was needed on a voyage, this was it.

http://ncse.com/cej/4/1/impossible-voyage-noahs-ark#Caring for the Cargo
 
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I'm curious about the physics and logistics of the ark, but it's not really that important. It's the equivalent of wanting to know the armament of the Executor--I'm a nerd.

Unless this book addresses the gross inconsistencies between the Deluge story and all of geology, it still can't prove that anything like a world-wide flood happened. It's pretty much as simple as that.
 
Dinwar said:
I'm curious about the physics and logistics of the ark, but it's not really that important. It's the equivalent of wanting to know the armament of the Executor--I'm a nerd.

Unless this book addresses the gross inconsistencies between the Deluge story and all of geology, it still can't prove that anything like a world-wide flood happened. It's pretty much as simple as that.
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"Guys guys, I was in a flood this big!" *holds out arms as wide as they can go*
 
2) Waste treatment:
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There are some serious issues here.

My cousin once didn't clean his chicken coop for a while. I helped him once he decided that it needed done. The ammonia from the fecies was so strong that I still, 15 years later, have a weak sense of smell.

On the plus side, they didn't have our concerns for the environment--just dump it over the side and the animal byproduct is gone. The problem is GETTING it there. Ever shovel hog poop when they've been eating silage? It SUCKS. Hauling it up to the top of a ship would have been nearly impossible. You'd have to start with the heavy hitters, as it were, at the top, moving down to the more dainty species at the bottom. Which mucks up a lot of other logistics, such as water storage (anyone here stupid enough to put the water below the elephants?) and bilge.
 
Dinwar said:
On the plus side, they didn't have our concerns for the environment--just dump it over the side and the animal byproduct is gone. The problem is GETTING it there. Ever shovel hog poop when they've been eating silage? It SUCKS. Hauling it up to the top of a ship would have been nearly impossible.
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Hence the waste chutes.
 
AvalonXQ said:
Hence the waste chutes.
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Oh, come on, you're not even trying.

Most of the boat is going to be below water. Waste chutes that go out would sink the ship. That means that all this waste has to go UP. Without electricity, on a wooden boat you're talking manual labor. Even if there are waste chutes you've STILL got to haul this stuff up several stories.

Besides, have you ever hauled hog poop? The stuff doesn't exactly move easily. It's not going to slide down the way you're obviously imagining--it'll all pile up on those chutes, until there's no room for the hog anymore. So you still have to have teams of people working with shovels.
 
Oh yea of little faith.

God shrank all the animals down to the size of a flea (even the fleas) and then put them in suspended animation.

When the Ark landed on the mountain in Turkey. Noah and co then attached pairs of the little sleeping critters to the dandelion parachute balls where God's holy winds sent then all over the World. (Note; they don't have to delivered back to "where they came from"; just dispersed across the planet). When they landed, God expanded then to their original size .

QED
 
wakawakawaka said:
how did the polar bears get there and how did they survive the jorney with out air condtioning, or did they evolve from brown bears AFTER the flood with magical super-duper ultra evolution
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Polar Bears can live in warmer temps. We have had a colony living in Sydney's main zoo for years
 
Waste chutes are fine. They can even vent below the water line, provided that their linings are all as strong and water-tight as the outer hull, up to the level of the gunwales. The receiving (top) end of the chute must therefore be as high as the gunwales, or else each chute becomes a very large leak when waves are encountered.

Easier to strap the animals into stalls set into the hull like the balconies on a cruise ship, with their rear ends suspended over the briny abyss. That would make all those kids' Noah's Ark toys a bit more fun and educational.

However -- does any part of scripture specifically rule out a catamaran design? With that configuration, the animals could be housed throughout the center span, with their nether ends positioned over holes opening directly upon the water.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
What did Noah do about all the freshwater fish?
What did Noah do about shallow water and rock pool species such as corals, anemones etc?
How were parasites and diseases maintained without killing their animal hosts?
Did he collect all the million species of insects?
Did he collect plants or their seeds? How were these distributed to the continents afterwards?
How come all the marsupials traveled to Australia and South America, without leaving any marsupial species behind in the middle east?
Why were slow moving animals such as the sloth able to travel all the way to South America, but more speedy animals such as rabbits unable to reach Australia even though we know they are well adapted to Australia?
How can we account for all the diversity we see in species today with only two parents?
How does the Noahs Ark account for species distributions that are well explained by continental drift, such as Wallaces line?
Food in the form of hay, dried fruit, dried meat, and dried fish occupied up to 12% of the ark volume.
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This only provides a healthy diet to a fraction of the animals in the world. Some have very specific diets. For example, Koalas need a constant supply of fresh eucalyptus leaves, how were these supplied?
 
Modified said:
The minimum viable population to prevent extinction due to inbreeding for most species is far higher than two.
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In one version of the story, written on the same pages as the first story, Noah is asked to take seven pairs. Been a while since I read it, the seven pairs might've been just of 'clean' animals or something.
 
tsig said:
AvalonXQ

The Woodmorappe book has arrived; I'm looking forward to see what it says. Feel free to ask me on some other thread or by PM if you're interested.

Do you agree with this?


Food in the form of hay, dried fruit, dried meat, and dried fish occupied up to 12% of the ark volume. Most of the food was hay, compressed or possibly pelletized to take up less space.

Drinking water took up about 10% of the ark volume. This could have been less if rain water was also collected from the roof.
Click to expand...

How big is the thing and what is it made from?
 
Modified said:
The minimum viable population to prevent extinction due to inbreeding for most species is far higher than two. The Ark would have needed to carry hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of large mammals alone.
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That's my question, why don't we see a genetic bottleneck in every extant species at about the same time in history?

No common bottleneck, no ark.
 
from first hand experience I can relate the following. Growing up on a small ranch we had 7 to 9 horses. The hay for a month took a flat bed to deliver, 4 - 5 people to unload, at least 1/5 of the barn to store, and half a day to unload. Don't get me started on the clean up of their stalls and the thrush! Oh the stinky thrush!

Not to mention the fire suppression system installed incase the massive stacks of hay combusted. just a random link about hay catching fire

ETA: it may have been more than a months worth my brain is failing me.
 
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