Sodastream: food grade CO2?

jimtron · 29th July 2012, 09:04 PM

I bought a Sodastream a while back, not to make flavored soda but just because I like to drink carbonated water, and it's cheaper and less wasteful to make it from tap water than to buy it. Sodastream includes a CO2 tank with a proprietary nozzle or whatever you call it, so you have to exchange the tanks which costs $15 (which in the long run is still cheaper than buying seltzer water in cans or bottles).

So then I found out about the Sodamod, which is an adapter that allows you to use paintball tanks in the Sodastream, which cost only about $2 or $3 to refill, even for much larger tanks. I thought I had read somewhere that there's no such thing as "food-grade" CO2, but after using the paintball tanks (refilled at the chain store, Sports Authority) I noticed the taste was a bit weird, so I did some more Googling and found some indication that there are in fact different grades of CO2, some filtered, some not, and unfiltered gas could have Benzene or other nasty contaminants.

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/BN-Army...ths-and-Rumors

Anyone know anything about this? I'd hate to go back to $15 refills, but I'm not crazy about inhaling Benzene.

Pantaz · 29th July 2012, 09:39 PM

I don't have specifics, but I am aware of differing grades (purity levels) of compressed gases.
Depending on the volume you're using, industrial gas suppliers, such as Air Liquide, AirGas, etc., may offer a better price. You might need to bring your equipment to them to see if the connectors/valves are compatible.

jimtron · 29th July 2012, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Pantaz

I don't have specifics, but I am aware of differing grades (purity levels) of compressed gases.
Depending on the volume you're using, industrial gas suppliers, such as Air Liquide, AirGas, etc., may offer a better price. You might need to bring your equipment to them to see if the connectors/valves are compatible.

I did call several of those places and they didn't refill paintball tanks.

Andrew Wiggin · 29th July 2012, 10:12 PM

Another, potentially larger issue that might be giving you an off-taste is that tanks of gas intended for human consumption are cleaned, and tanks for random uses like paintball are not. I've had the valve off of a paintball cylinder, and it was filthy inside. I took it to be the residue from spinning the tank and machining the threads. I've heard the same from other folks who have opened their tanks for one reason or another. It doesn't mean it can't be cleaned, just that it hasn't been. I'd take the valve off, and use a strong detergent to get all the oil and dirt out, maybe throw some BB's in and swirl them around to help scrub the inside without abrading it.

In other news, I found a youtube video showing how to refill the sodastream tanks at home, using dry ice, which I'm pretty sure IS food grade, since it's sold for keeping food cold, and that implies contact with something that will be eaten.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWcRDMAA8RE

Andrew Wiggin · 29th July 2012, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by jimtron

I did call several of those places and they didn't refill paintball tanks.

You could get them to lease you a full size cylinder though, filled from the same tank they fill the cylinders for restaurants. Then get or make a transfill whip just like the sports stores use to refill the paintball cylinders.

fuelair · 29th July 2012, 10:26 PM

Actually, and more fun (though the useful life is shorter): you can just put a piece of dry ice in the water and as it bubbles it will nicely carbonate the water. My students and I make sodas every year (when studying gasses( by adding flavoring/sugar to water and putting dry ice in. They are surprised when they test it and find it very good and perfectly bubbly. Also, you make a weird cold candy - sugar and flavoring freezes on the dry ice - quite tasty................

BowlOfRed · 29th July 2012, 11:08 PM

There are lots of ways to do it to keep the pricing down. See this page:
http://blogs.howstuffworks.com/2010/...-on-club-soda/

volcano · 29th July 2012, 11:11 PM

We buy cartridges at the local homebrew shop-- same size as paintball cartridges, but designed for human consumption.
(When at home we use a large tank for carbonating-- the little cartridges are useful for dispensing beer away from home, though, when we bring a keg of beer to parties, etc.).

Andrew Wiggin · 30th July 2012, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by volcano

We buy cartridges at the local homebrew shop-- same size as paintball cartridges, but designed for human consumption.
(When at home we use a large tank for carbonating-- the little cartridges are useful for dispensing beer away from home, though, when we bring a keg of beer to parties, etc.).

You can actually carbonate with those (the 9 gram size) without any equipment at all except a soda bottle, water, ice, and a knife. It's a pain in the ass but I've done it several times basically as proof of concept. I fill a soda bottle with ice cold (literally shaken with ice right before it's poured in) water, use a sharp knife to make a tiny hole in the end of the cartridge, then drop it into the water and close the cap. You want to scrub the outside surface of the cartridge really well, since they don't figure on that touching the beverage, and make sure that you've got the tiniest possible hole, just barely hissing. Even barely hissing is a lot of gas once it's in the water. I rotate the knife around with its point on the end of the cartridge and basically let it dig its own way in. Once you drop it in the bottle, it helps to burp any remaining air out before closing the lid. Then you shake the bottle continuously. If you're shaking hard enough, the CO2 absorbs faster than the cartridge is emitting it and the bottle stays soft and sometimes even collapses a bit. If the bottle starts to get hard and pressurized, shake harder. If you're shaking as hard as you can and the bottle doesn't go soft again, then either you made too big a hole in your cartridge or the water has absorbed all it can. In either case, open the lid a bit and vent off the excess till the cartridge stops bubbling. I use a magnet to take the cartridge out of the bottle, but it wouldn't be a huge issue if you were serving it right away, or pouring it into a different container. Once when I left the cartridge in the bottle though it rusted and gave the water a nasty color and flavor.

You could do something similar with a chunk of dry ice, I'd imagine. If you just let it bubble through it won't be fully carbonated, but with the additional pressure build up in the bottle you could get it completely saturated. Not only that, but the dry ice would help cool the water, which is important for good absorbtion.

Pantaz · 30th July 2012, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by jimtron

I did call several of those places and they didn't refill paintball tanks.

Actually, I was thinking more along these lines...

Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin

You could get them to lease you a full size cylinder though, filled from the same tank they fill the cylinders for restaurants. Then get or make a transfill whip just like the sports stores use to refill the paintball cylinders.

You can probably get by with a 10 or 15 pound capacity cylinder, which shouldn't be too expensive. (Leasing is generally the preferred option for the larger cylinders.)

Also, home-beer-brewing suppliers might be a good place to go for CO2.

casebro · 30th July 2012, 05:23 AM

I guess I have my doubts that there is a lower grade of 'industrial' co2. Welders and etc that use the gas need purity too, probably more important than the food industry. I suspect there is only one supply chain with one grade of gas. The stuff is expensive to handle, what with high pressure tank trucks and storage.

Hmmm, next time I get to the keg store for a refill, I shall look at their tanks for a "food grade" designation. Hmmm, when I refilled at the welding gas store, where they knowingly fill tanks for either food or industrial uses, I don't recall them asking about usage. I do both with the same tanks.

BenBurch · 30th July 2012, 05:46 AM

The purity differences are significant.

http://www.pasuk.com/assets/File/co2purity.pdf

And there are industrial systems for purification.

If you care about your health, do not use anything other than beverage CO2.

kedo1981 · 30th July 2012, 09:14 AM

Me thinks there could be a bit of oil for lube also

jimtron · 30th July 2012, 10:47 AM

Thanks for the helpful replies. Homebrew store sounds like a good bet, and if that doesn't work maybe a big tank.

casebro · 30th July 2012, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

The purity differences are significant.

http://www.pasuk.com/assets/File/co2purity.pdf

And there are industrial systems for purification.

If you care about your health, do not use anything other than beverage CO2.

The gist of that site is that Coke,Pepsi, and brewers have standards.

Nothing there says that industrial grade is out of spec. And nobody here has claimed that what their industrial supplier sells is anything besides food grade.

BenBurch · 30th July 2012, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by casebro

The gist of that site is that Coke,Pepsi, and brewers have standards.

Nothing there says that industrial grade is out of spec. And nobody here has claimed that what their industrial supplier sells is anything besides food grade.

Found some discussion of this as it relates to brewing; http://thebrewingnetwork.com/BN-Army...ths-and-Rumors

Andrew Wiggin · 31st July 2012, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

The purity differences are significant.

http://www.pasuk.com/assets/File/co2purity.pdf

And there are industrial systems for purification.

If you care about your health, do not use anything other than beverage CO2.

I was starting to get excited, when I saw they were testing for THC levels, till I read down a bit and saw that it was probably their ad-hoc abbreviation for 'total hydrocarbon'.

I do note though that nothing in the article you linked indicated that commercial CO2 didn't meet the standards, just that standards had been proposed, and the company that made the powerpoint was planning to market a gas analyzer to Coke and Pepsi to meet said proposed standards.

Finn McR · 31st July 2012, 10:50 PM

If you have detected an off-taste due to possible "industrial-grade" CO2 (no control of tank cleanliness, possible lubricants in the system, etc), you should take a look at the fountain drink nozzles at you local fast food joints. Unless they are cleaned regularly in disinfectant, they develop impressive mildew/biofilm/whatever contaminants. Think of it, wet sugar syrup that sits for hours overnight unless cleaned regularly (and this is not purely theoretical but based on, shudder, anecdotal experience).

Lamuella · 31st July 2012, 11:48 PM

I do wonder why carbonated water is so expensive in the US. When I lived there it was really hard to find fizzy water that wasn't either club soda or perrier, both of which were overpriced. Where I live right now, I can get a 2 litre bottle of carbonated water for 17p (around 30 cents).

arthwollipot · 31st July 2012, 11:52 PM

Weird. We exchange our Sodastream cannisters for free.

DrDave · 1st August 2012, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Weird. We exchange our Sodastream cannisters for free.

The equivalent of free refills?

We used to pay a hefty fee for the first as it included a deposit for the cyclinder, and then you would get a large proportion back if you handed it in, or you could swap it for a filled one for a small fee.

arthwollipot · 1st August 2012, 12:20 AM

Yes, we get unlimited free refills.

Damien Evans · 1st August 2012, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Lamuella

I do wonder why carbonated water is so expensive in the US. When I lived there it was really hard to find fizzy water that wasn't either club soda or perrier, both of which were overpriced. Where I live right now, I can get a 2 litre bottle of carbonated water for 17p (around 30 cents).

Flat bottled water costs over 2 dollars a litre here. I don't know why anyone's stupid enough to buy it.

29th July 2012, 09:04 PM	#1
jimtron Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 3,104	Sodastream: food grade CO2? I bought a Sodastream a while back, not to make flavored soda but just because I like to drink carbonated water, and it's cheaper and less wasteful to make it from tap water than to buy it. Sodastream includes a CO2 tank with a proprietary nozzle or whatever you call it, so you have to exchange the tanks which costs $15 (which in the long run is still cheaper than buying seltzer water in cans or bottles). So then I found out about the Sodamod, which is an adapter that allows you to use paintball tanks in the Sodastream, which cost only about $2 or $3 to refill, even for much larger tanks. I thought I had read somewhere that there's no such thing as "food-grade" CO2, but after using the paintball tanks (refilled at the chain store, Sports Authority) I noticed the taste was a bit weird, so I did some more Googling and found some indication that there are in fact different grades of CO2, some filtered, some not, and unfiltered gas could have Benzene or other nasty contaminants. http://thebrewingnetwork.com/BN-Army...ths-and-Rumors Anyone know anything about this? I'd hate to go back to $15 refills, but I'm not crazy about inhaling Benzene.

29th July 2012, 09:39 PM	#2
Pantaz Muse Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 981	I don't have specifics, but I am aware of differing grades (purity levels) of compressed gases. Depending on the volume you're using, industrial gas suppliers, such as Air Liquide, AirGas, etc., may offer a better price. You might need to bring your equipment to them to see if the connectors/valves are compatible.
Pantaz Muse Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 981	__________________ Remember, just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. - Ricky Gervais My decision making skills closely resemble that of a squirrel when crossing the street. - Bill Murray

29th July 2012, 10:12 PM	#4
Andrew Wiggin Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,915	Another, potentially larger issue that might be giving you an off-taste is that tanks of gas intended for human consumption are cleaned, and tanks for random uses like paintball are not. I've had the valve off of a paintball cylinder, and it was filthy inside. I took it to be the residue from spinning the tank and machining the threads. I've heard the same from other folks who have opened their tanks for one reason or another. It doesn't mean it can't be cleaned, just that it hasn't been. I'd take the valve off, and use a strong detergent to get all the oil and dirt out, maybe throw some BB's in and swirl them around to help scrub the inside without abrading it. In other news, I found a youtube video showing how to refill the sodastream tanks at home, using dry ice, which I'm pretty sure IS food grade, since it's sold for keeping food cold, and that implies contact with something that will be eaten. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWcRDMAA8RE
	__________________ "Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells Last edited by Andrew Wiggin; 29th July 2012 at 10:17 PM. Reason: Imbedding disabled, replaced with link.

29th July 2012, 10:20 PM	#5
Andrew Wiggin Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,915	Originally Posted by jimtron I did call several of those places and they didn't refill paintball tanks. You could get them to lease you a full size cylinder though, filled from the same tank they fill the cylinders for restaurants. Then get or make a transfill whip just like the sports stores use to refill the paintball cylinders.
	__________________ "Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells

29th July 2012, 10:26 PM	#6
fuelair Suspended Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 57,679	Actually, and more fun (though the useful life is shorter): you can just put a piece of dry ice in the water and as it bubbles it will nicely carbonate the water. My students and I make sodas every year (when studying gasses( by adding flavoring/sugar to water and putting dry ice in. They are surprised when they test it and find it very good and perfectly bubbly. Also, you make a weird cold candy - sugar and flavoring freezes on the dry ice - quite tasty................
fuelair Suspended Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 57,679

29th July 2012, 10:04 PM	#3
jimtron Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 3,104	Originally Posted by Pantaz I don't have specifics, but I am aware of differing grades (purity levels) of compressed gases. Depending on the volume you're using, industrial gas suppliers, such as Air Liquide, AirGas, etc., may offer a better price. You might need to bring your equipment to them to see if the connectors/valves are compatible. I did call several of those places and they didn't refill paintball tanks.

29th July 2012, 11:08 PM	#7
BowlOfRed Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Silicon Valley Posts: 1,353	There are lots of ways to do it to keep the pricing down. See this page: http://blogs.howstuffworks.com/2010/...-on-club-soda/

29th July 2012, 11:11 PM	#8
volcano Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 421	We buy cartridges at the local homebrew shop-- same size as paintball cartridges, but designed for human consumption. (When at home we use a large tank for carbonating-- the little cartridges are useful for dispensing beer away from home, though, when we bring a keg of beer to parties, etc.).
volcano Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 421	Last edited by volcano; 29th July 2012 at 11:14 PM.

30th July 2012, 12:22 AM	#9
Andrew Wiggin Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,915	Originally Posted by volcano We buy cartridges at the local homebrew shop-- same size as paintball cartridges, but designed for human consumption. (When at home we use a large tank for carbonating-- the little cartridges are useful for dispensing beer away from home, though, when we bring a keg of beer to parties, etc.). You can actually carbonate with those (the 9 gram size) without any equipment at all except a soda bottle, water, ice, and a knife. It's a pain in the ass but I've done it several times basically as proof of concept. I fill a soda bottle with ice cold (literally shaken with ice right before it's poured in) water, use a sharp knife to make a tiny hole in the end of the cartridge, then drop it into the water and close the cap. You want to scrub the outside surface of the cartridge really well, since they don't figure on that touching the beverage, and make sure that you've got the tiniest possible hole, just barely hissing. Even barely hissing is a lot of gas once it's in the water. I rotate the knife around with its point on the end of the cartridge and basically let it dig its own way in. Once you drop it in the bottle, it helps to burp any remaining air out before closing the lid. Then you shake the bottle continuously. If you're shaking hard enough, the CO2 absorbs faster than the cartridge is emitting it and the bottle stays soft and sometimes even collapses a bit. If the bottle starts to get hard and pressurized, shake harder. If you're shaking as hard as you can and the bottle doesn't go soft again, then either you made too big a hole in your cartridge or the water has absorbed all it can. In either case, open the lid a bit and vent off the excess till the cartridge stops bubbling. I use a magnet to take the cartridge out of the bottle, but it wouldn't be a huge issue if you were serving it right away, or pouring it into a different container. Once when I left the cartridge in the bottle though it rusted and gave the water a nasty color and flavor. You could do something similar with a chunk of dry ice, I'd imagine. If you just let it bubble through it won't be fully carbonated, but with the additional pressure build up in the bottle you could get it completely saturated. Not only that, but the dry ice would help cool the water, which is important for good absorbtion.
	__________________ "Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells

30th July 2012, 02:19 AM	#10
Pantaz Muse Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 981	Originally Posted by jimtron I did call several of those places and they didn't refill paintball tanks. Actually, I was thinking more along these lines... Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin You could get them to lease you a full size cylinder though, filled from the same tank they fill the cylinders for restaurants. Then get or make a transfill whip just like the sports stores use to refill the paintball cylinders. You can probably get by with a 10 or 15 pound capacity cylinder, which shouldn't be too expensive. (Leasing is generally the preferred option for the larger cylinders.) Also, home-beer-brewing suppliers might be a good place to go for CO2.
Pantaz Muse Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 981

30th July 2012, 05:23 AM	#11
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 15,245	I guess I have my doubts that there is a lower grade of 'industrial' co2. Welders and etc that use the gas need purity too, probably more important than the food industry. I suspect there is only one supply chain with one grade of gas. The stuff is expensive to handle, what with high pressure tank trucks and storage. Hmmm, next time I get to the keg store for a refill, I shall look at their tanks for a "food grade" designation. Hmmm, when I refilled at the welding gas store, where they knowingly fill tanks for either food or industrial uses, I don't recall them asking about usage. I do both with the same tanks.
	__________________ Great minds discuss ideas. Medium minds discuss events. Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.

30th July 2012, 05:46 AM	#12
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 37,535	The purity differences are significant. http://www.pasuk.com/assets/File/co2purity.pdf And there are industrial systems for purification. If you care about your health, do not use anything other than beverage CO2.
	__________________ For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?

30th July 2012, 09:14 AM	#13
kedo1981 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,552	Me thinks there could be a bit of oil for lube also
kedo1981 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,552

30th July 2012, 10:47 AM	#14
jimtron Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 3,104	Thanks for the helpful replies. Homebrew store sounds like a good bet, and if that doesn't work maybe a big tank.

30th July 2012, 11:08 AM	#15
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 15,245	Originally Posted by BenBurch The purity differences are significant. http://www.pasuk.com/assets/File/co2purity.pdf And there are industrial systems for purification. If you care about your health, do not use anything other than beverage CO2. The gist of that site is that Coke,Pepsi, and brewers have standards. Nothing there says that industrial grade is out of spec. And nobody here has claimed that what their industrial supplier sells is anything besides food grade.
	__________________ Great minds discuss ideas. Medium minds discuss events. Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.

30th July 2012, 01:04 PM	#16
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 37,535	Originally Posted by casebro The gist of that site is that Coke,Pepsi, and brewers have standards. Nothing there says that industrial grade is out of spec. And nobody here has claimed that what their industrial supplier sells is anything besides food grade. Found some discussion of this as it relates to brewing; http://thebrewingnetwork.com/BN-Army...ths-and-Rumors
	__________________ For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?

31st July 2012, 10:34 PM	#17
Andrew Wiggin Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,915	Originally Posted by BenBurch The purity differences are significant. http://www.pasuk.com/assets/File/co2purity.pdf And there are industrial systems for purification. If you care about your health, do not use anything other than beverage CO2. I was starting to get excited, when I saw they were testing for THC levels, till I read down a bit and saw that it was probably their ad-hoc abbreviation for 'total hydrocarbon'. I do note though that nothing in the article you linked indicated that commercial CO2 didn't meet the standards, just that standards had been proposed, and the company that made the powerpoint was planning to market a gas analyzer to Coke and Pepsi to meet said proposed standards.
	__________________ "Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells

31st July 2012, 10:50 PM	#18
Finn McR Guest Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 284	If you have detected an off-taste due to possible "industrial-grade" CO2 (no control of tank cleanliness, possible lubricants in the system, etc), you should take a look at the fountain drink nozzles at you local fast food joints. Unless they are cleaned regularly in disinfectant, they develop impressive mildew/biofilm/whatever contaminants. Think of it, wet sugar syrup that sits for hours overnight unless cleaned regularly (and this is not purely theoretical but based on, shudder, anecdotal experience).
Finn McR Guest Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 284

31st July 2012, 11:48 PM	#19
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480	I do wonder why carbonated water is so expensive in the US. When I lived there it was really hard to find fizzy water that wasn't either club soda or perrier, both of which were overpriced. Where I live right now, I can get a 2 litre bottle of carbonated water for 17p (around 30 cents).
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480

31st July 2012, 11:52 PM	#20
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 57,209	Weird. We exchange our Sodastream cannisters for free.
	__________________ "This quote was taken out of context." - Randall Munroe

1st August 2012, 12:01 AM	#21
DrDave Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 4,300	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Weird. We exchange our Sodastream cannisters for free. The equivalent of free refills? We used to pay a hefty fee for the first as it included a deposit for the cyclinder, and then you would get a large proportion back if you handed it in, or you could swap it for a filled one for a small fee.
DrDave Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 4,300

1st August 2012, 12:20 AM	#22
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 57,209	Yes, we get unlimited free refills.
	__________________ "This quote was taken out of context." - Randall Munroe

1st August 2012, 12:52 AM	#23
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 34,069	Originally Posted by Lamuella I do wonder why carbonated water is so expensive in the US. When I lived there it was really hard to find fizzy water that wasn't either club soda or perrier, both of which were overpriced. Where I live right now, I can get a 2 litre bottle of carbonated water for 17p (around 30 cents). Flat bottled water costs over 2 dollars a litre here. I don't know why anyone's stupid enough to buy it.
	__________________ i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp.