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Old 1st August 2012, 09:43 AM   #1
Dcdrac
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Has Flight 19 been found yet?

I am sure I sw a news report years ago stating the wrecks of Flight 19 had been found
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Old 1st August 2012, 09:48 AM   #2
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IIRC they found some Avengers, but the serial numbers didn't match.

ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_...enger_wreckage
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Old 1st August 2012, 09:49 AM   #3
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The wiki covers the finding of different Avengers off Florida but not those of Flight 19
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Old 1st August 2012, 09:51 AM   #4
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I think they found some Avengers on the sea floor, and thought it was the missing flight, but they turned out to be different aircraft that had ended up there over a number of years.

I'm sure someone will tun up with a reference.
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Old 1st August 2012, 09:53 AM   #5
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I have read of a US navy diver who is convinced he saw the wereck of USS Cyclopsas well but nowhere near the Bermuda area of course.
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Old 1st August 2012, 10:53 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
The wiki covers the finding of different Avengers off Florida but not those of Flight 19
Oh yeah! I totally forgot about all that Bermuda Triangle woo. I once saw a documentary where they noted those Avengers were found, determined that they weren't Flight 19, but (*dramatic pause*) couldn't determine which flight they were from!

(*Bum bum BUUUUUMMMMMM!!!* )

Anyway, as Wikipedia noted and sourced to another, less hysterical documentary:
Quote:
In 1991, the wreckage of five Avengers was discovered off the coast of Florida, but engine serial numbers revealed they were not Flight 19. They had crashed on five different days all within 1.5 mi (2.4 km) of each other. Records revealed that the various discovered aircraft, including the group of five, were declared either unfit for maintenance/repair or obsolete, and were simply disposed of at sea.
It's funny how mundane reality could be sometimes.
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Old 1st August 2012, 05:16 PM   #7
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Flight 19 and the Bermuda Triangle

The concept of the triangle was created in 1950 with an article by Associated Press reporter Edward Van Winkle Jones. He had a map showing an airplane flying from Bermuda toward Puerto Rico, another plane flying from Puerto Rico to Miami, and finally, Flight 19 flying from Fort Lauderdale out in the direction of Bermuda. It looks a triangle.

Much of the story about the Bermuda triangle begins with Flight 19, aka the Lost Patrol. The irony of Flight 19 is that none of the men died within the infamous Bermuda triangle. Flight 19 disappeared in December of 1945 but it wasn’t into the Bermuda triangle and it wasn't sudden — it took five hours for each of the TMB avengers to drop out of the sky. Three crash sites have been located and one aircraft has been raised from the sea.

Taken from, Discovery of Flight 19
Douglas Westfall, historic publisher, Specialbooks.com
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Old 1st August 2012, 05:41 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
I have read of a US navy diver who is convinced he saw the wereck of USS Cyclopsas well but nowhere near the Bermuda area of course.
Well a few years ago this topic was discussed. I along with a number of other members recall footage of a dive on sunken ship thought to be the Cyclops.

Now the ship had very distinctive upper works, and at least two of her sister ships have been lost off the US coast so this diver might really have dived a ship that looked like the Cyclops but was not the vessel.
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Old 1st August 2012, 05:45 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by DouglasWestfall View Post
The concept of the triangle was created in 1950 with an article by Associated Press reporter Edward Van Winkle Jones. He had a map showing an airplane flying from Bermuda toward Puerto Rico, another plane flying from Puerto Rico to Miami, and finally, Flight 19 flying from Fort Lauderdale out in the direction of Bermuda. It looks a triangle.

Much of the story about the Bermuda triangle begins with Flight 19, aka the Lost Patrol. The irony of Flight 19 is that none of the men died within the infamous Bermuda triangle. Flight 19 disappeared in December of 1945 but it wasn’t into the Bermuda triangle and it wasn't sudden — it took five hours for each of the TMB avengers to drop out of the sky. Three crash sites have been located and one aircraft has been raised from the sea.

Taken from, Discovery of Flight 19
Douglas Westfall, historic publisher, Specialbooks.com
I know you can't post links yet but provide the www. And we will post the links for you. Look forward to reading about this and welcome to the forum.
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Old 1st August 2012, 06:14 PM   #10
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He did give the URL in his last line: www.specialbooks.com

Commercial venture, though (the book is for sale at that site), so it's bending the rules to post it.
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Old 1st August 2012, 08:19 PM   #11
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This book puts to rest all the nonsense regarding the Bermuda Triangle.

I highly recommend it, and it can be had for pennies.
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Old 2nd August 2012, 12:10 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by grmcdorman View Post
He did give the URL in his last line: www.specialbooks.com

Commercial venture, though (the book is for sale at that site), so it's bending the rules to post it.
Here's the link to where you can buy the book:

http://www.specialbooks.com/flight_19.htm

The forum rules do not allow a member to post a link to their own product for sale, but you can post links to someone else's product.
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Old 2nd August 2012, 04:49 AM   #13
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Wow I wll buy that book later thank you
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Old 3rd August 2012, 04:18 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
This book puts to rest all the nonsense regarding the Bermuda Triangle.

I highly recommend it, and it can be had for pennies.
Kusche's book was one of the first books I read after learning about skepticism. He exposed all the BT authors as liars. A BT book says a ship in perfect condition set sail in perfect weather and mysteriously disappeared. Kusche went to the primary sources and discovered what really happened: it was in such bad condition half the crew refused to sail on it and it sailed into a storm. His book is full of nothing but stories like that. It is an amazing read just to see how shamelessly the mystery mongers will lie.
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Old 5th August 2012, 10:21 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
This book puts to rest all the nonsense regarding the Bermuda Triangle.

I highly recommend it, and it can be had for pennies.
There was a Nova episode that did a superb debunking of the Bermuda Triangle. They looked at original police, Coast Guard and military records, and all of the incidents cited by woo-pedlars turned out to be easily explainable accidents. Flight 19, for example, got lost badly enough that they weren't sure whether they were east of Florida or west of it, turned around several times, ran out of fuel and crashed.

Boats sink and planes crash. When that happens in the open ocean, very often nothing is found. This is about as surprising as a steel-framed building collapsing due to a massive fire.

Many of the Bermuda Triangle books pretty much plagiarized crap from older books, back to somebody who just made stuff up.
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Old 5th August 2012, 01:04 PM   #16
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I remember David Copperfield "raising a boat" that allegedly sunk in the Bermuda Triangle. As soon as it surfaced, it exploded, caught fire and sank again
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Old 5th August 2012, 05:12 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
There was a Nova episode that did a superb debunking of the Bermuda Triangle.

...

Many of the Bermuda Triangle books pretty much plagiarized crap from older books, back to somebody who just made stuff up.
One of the more famous Triangle disappearances was off the coast of Miami. A small pleasure boat with two people on board sent out a Mayday, saying they were sinking and they were at Buoy #2, and by the time the Coast Guard arrived 15 minutes later the boat had simply vanished!!! I know, it sends chills up your spine!

Nova investigated that case and could find nothing about the boat saying they were at Buoy #2, only that they were "2 miles off the coast of Miami." Ok, the coast off Miami runs, what? 10 miles? 50 miles?

So where did "Buoy #2" come from? Nova interviewed that author and he said, "Well, I looked at a chart of Miami and saw this buoy about 2 miles off the coast so I used that as the location."
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Old 11th August 2012, 10:58 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
This book puts to rest all the nonsense regarding the Bermuda Triangle.

I highly recommend it, and it can be had for pennies.
Seconded! An instructive book that shows how to properly investigate alleged myths, rather than simply repeating them with a few extra fictional encrustations added.

A bit downhearting to realise it's over 30 years old, yet the BT myths continue. Oh well, the truth will prevail. Eventually!
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Old 13th August 2012, 05:47 AM   #19
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Flight 19

I thank you all for my author Jon F. Myhre, your comments are uplifting. Jon is 3rd generation military, spent 20 years as an army pilot, and retired as a Master Aviator with 35 air medals, including a DFC. He was shot down twice, in the same day, in two different helicopters, in Viet Nam, and left for dead.

When they went back to look for bodies, and found him alive the next day, he said he would never leave anyone behind. He later read the story of Flight 19 and began his search in 1981.

Flight 19 wasn't lost, they were left behind.

Best Regards, Douglas
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Old 13th August 2012, 06:06 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by DouglasWestfall View Post
The concept of the triangle was created in 1950 with an article by Associated Press reporter Edward Van Winkle Jones. He had a map showing an airplane flying from Bermuda toward Puerto Rico, another plane flying from Puerto Rico to Miami, and finally, Flight 19 flying from Fort Lauderdale out in the direction of Bermuda. It looks a triangle.
I did a report on the Bermuda Triangle when I was in sixth grade. By that time, the Triangle had swelled to occupy most of the Atlantic Ocean.

Quote:
Much of the story about the Bermuda triangle begins with Flight 19, aka the Lost Patrol. The irony of Flight 19 is that none of the men died within the infamous Bermuda triangle.
Easily fixed...all you have to do is redefine the boundaries!
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Old 18th August 2012, 07:43 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by DouglasWestfall View Post
I thank you all for my author Jon F. Myhre, your comments are uplifting. Jon is 3rd generation military, spent 20 years as an army pilot, and retired as a Master Aviator with 35 air medals, including a DFC. He was shot down twice, in the same day, in two different helicopters, in Viet Nam, and left for dead.

When they went back to look for bodies, and found him alive the next day, he said he would never leave anyone behind. He later read the story of Flight 19 and began his search in 1981.

Flight 19 wasn't lost, they were left behind.

Best Regards, Douglas
Wow. An amazing story.

Welcome from me, too!
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Old 20th August 2012, 09:21 AM   #22
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Again, thank you all for your comments on Jon's book, Discovery of Flight 19. We truly feel it will be the last book written on the subject.

Back to the original question: Has Flight 19 been found yet?

Well, yes and no. We know the crash sites, and the plane pulled up is an FT- Avenger, but the Navy took that and had cleaned up the two land crash sites years ago. So, we don't have the planes. Jon does have the control stick on one of them however.

The other two are in deep water out in the Atlantic. There were many sightings so we're pretty sure where they went down.

Best Regards, Douglas
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Old 20th August 2012, 11:08 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by DouglasWestfall View Post
Flight 19 wasn't lost, they were left behind.
Huh? Please clarify because that makes the initial disappearance of Flight 19 sound purposeful and its continued disappearedness like a coverup. What evidence does Myhre have that the found aircraft are from Flight 19? The ID of the one he raised parts from was "inconclusive" because he did not find the data plate, though he also raised its engine and its serial number should be on file. OTOH, these were ratty old hulks good only for training no longer frontline warbirds and records on engine changes may have been spotty. But what about the others you mentioned? Wikipedia mentions five found in 1991 but their numbers don't match.

But back to "left behind." What do you and he mean by that? The Navy searched for five days and lost another aircraft looking for the men. At some point you need to just give up.
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Old 20th August 2012, 11:19 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by DouglasWestfall View Post
Again, thank you all for your comments on Jon's book, Discovery of Flight 19. We truly feel it will be the last book written on the subject.
Who's we?
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Old 21st August 2012, 02:35 AM   #25
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I can't remember what it was, but I was watching something that basically said if you took the area of the Bermuda Triangle and put it over almost any body of water in the world, you'll get a similar number, if not more, of 'unexplained' events which have occurred there over decades.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 05:36 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Who's we?
I guess "we" is Jon F. Myhre who wrote Discovery of Flight 19

http://www.specialbooks.com/flight19.htm

...and Douglas Westfall who published it.

http://www.specialbooks.com/douglas_westfall.htm
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Old 22nd August 2012, 06:01 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by cjnewson88 View Post
I can't remember what it was, but I was watching something that basically said if you took the area of the Bermuda Triangle and put it over almost any body of water in the world, you'll get a similar number, if not more, of 'unexplained' events which have occurred there over decades.
What's even more damning is the number of airplanes that mysteriously disappear each year over dry land, never to be found.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 06:21 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
This book puts to rest all the nonsense regarding the Bermuda Triangle.

I highly recommend it, and it can be had for pennies.

The Amazon ad gives a publication date of 1995, but it first came out in 1975, so this information has been around for decades; and yet the “mystery” persists.
I remember shortly after reading this excellent book, I received an insight into the “woo” mindset. My family was watching a TV program on the Bermuda Triangle, and I was debunking each “incident”, one by one. Finally, my father turned to me exasperated and said “You skeptics have a rational answer for everything, don’t you?”
I tried to explain that this was the point. I didn’t succeed.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 06:46 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
This book puts to rest all the nonsense regarding the Bermuda Triangle.

I highly recommend it, and it can be had for pennies.
I came across a book years ago (don't remember who wrote it) which claimed that Kusche was wrong, and Flight 19 crashed in the swamps of the Florida coast. Anyone recall that book or the author's claim?
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Old 26th August 2012, 04:30 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by patchbunny View Post
I came across a book years ago (don't remember who wrote it) which claimed that Kusche was wrong, and Flight 19 crashed in the swamps of the Florida coast. Anyone recall that book or the author's claim?
This one?
They Flew Into Oblivion: The Disappearance of Flight 19 by Gian Quasar claims that Flight 19 crashed in the Okefenokee Swamp along the Florida/Georgia border.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/055...w_bottom_links
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Old 26th August 2012, 04:39 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Accidental Martyr View Post
This one?
They Flew Into Oblivion: The Disappearance of Flight 19 by Gian Quasar claims that Flight 19 crashed in the Okefenokee Swamp along the Florida/Georgia border.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/055...w_bottom_links
I'm pretty sure Albert, Howland, Churchy & Pogo are responsible for the coverup.
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Old 26th August 2012, 06:27 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by cjnewson88 View Post
I can't remember what it was, but I was watching something that basically said if you took the area of the Bermuda Triangle and put it over almost any body of water in the world, you'll get a similar number, if not more, of 'unexplained' events which have occurred there over decades.
I think that is how 'Beakman's World' put it when they were asked about the BT.
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Old 26th August 2012, 08:18 AM   #33
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I came across a rather bizarre web page a few years ago claiming that Flight 19 was lost because the flight leader, and possibly other pilots, were suffering from a condition known as subliminal distraction. Although it seems reasonable, on the evidence, that the flight leader might have been experiencing some form of subtle incapacitation, the author's claims appear, in my non-expert opinion, to be far outside the realm of accepted psychological theory.
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Old 26th August 2012, 09:39 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Accidental Martyr View Post
This one?
They Flew Into Oblivion: The Disappearance of Flight 19 by Gian Quasar claims that Flight 19 crashed in the Okefenokee Swamp along the Florida/Georgia border.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/055...w_bottom_links
That's the one.

Anyone have thoughts about his conclusions? Been far too long since I've poked my nose into his theory to remember much about it.
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Old 28th August 2012, 03:50 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
Huh? Please clarify because that makes the initial disappearance of Flight 19 sound purposeful and its continued disappearedness like a coverup. What evidence does Myhre have that the found aircraft are from Flight 19? The ID of the one he raised parts from was "inconclusive" because he did not find the data plate, though he also raised its engine and its serial number should be on file. OTOH, these were ratty old hulks good only for training no longer frontline warbirds and records on engine changes may have been spotty. But what about the others you mentioned? Wikipedia mentions five found in 1991 but their numbers don't match.

But back to "left behind." What do you and he mean by that? The Navy searched for five days and lost another aircraft looking for the men. At some point you need to just give up.
Jon Myhre's purpose in researching Flight 19 was to bring the boys home, because he feels they were left behind, as he was in Viet Nam. A five day search is nothing, Charles Ulm's in 1934 was 27 days, Earhart's in 1937 was 16 days ( & $4 million then), Eddie Rickenbacker's in 1942 was 24 days.

The loss of the PBM search dumbo, was all too common. One Pan Am radio man stated: "I remember they leaked gasoline out of the overhead tanks so badly that we put our coffee cups and pots around the floor to catch the drips."

Capt. Roberts of the Flight 19 review board still lives, and still insists they were pushed to end it and get it out of the news. The US Navy took Myhre's TBM away and destroyed it prior to his disassembly to find the Bureau numbers.

We don't do the three 'Cs' -- Conspiracy, Covert, & Cover-up -- we record the history as we find it from first person accounts and existing reports & records -- in this case from the men who were there, and the US Navy.
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Old 28th August 2012, 03:52 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Who's we?
We is Jon F. Myhre the author, myself the publisher, John Bloome Director of the NAS Ft. Lauderdale museum, plus a few critics.
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Old 14th July 2013, 07:15 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by patchbunny View Post
That's the one.

Anyone have thoughts about his conclusions? Been far too long since I've poked my nose into his theory to remember much about it.
Did you see the prices of those books?
I don't find the mystery that interesting.
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Old 14th July 2013, 07:30 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
Did you see the prices of those books?
Conspiracy theories and Nigerian scams are great money-makers.
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Old 14th July 2013, 08:12 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
Did you see the prices of those books?
I don't find the mystery that interesting.
Originally Posted by Amazon
2 new from $1,204.81 4 used from $505.70
For a paperback book?!
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Old 14th July 2013, 11:46 AM   #40
patchbunny
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Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
Did you see the prices of those books?
I don't find the mystery that interesting.
You can buy it for $14 if you really want.

I've not seen his claims discussed before, so I asked. Still haven't. :P
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