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Old 22nd August 2012, 09:19 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Ocelot View Post
Indeed but that would be ∵Atheism rather than Atheism+

As I read it Atheism+ isn't supposed to be all the opinions an atheist is supposed to have because they're an atheist.

Instead it is a manifesto that includes atheism. I assume the notion is to suggest that these all spring from critical thinking. For which I find I have a certain empathy. It's all very well saying that there's no logical reason why a lack of theistic belief should result in any particular stance on social issues but nonetheless in practice there does appear to be a constituency of like minded godless liberals.
I agree... perhaps atheists are more prone to dislike prejudice (which seems to be the "Plus" in Atheism+) because we don't have a supernatural authority dictating which group(s) of people are immoral? Anyway, if Atheism+ is just a "manifesto that includes atheism," then I guess I don't really have a problem with it; it could probably use a different name, but that's a minor quibble.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 09:25 AM   #42
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Rebecca Watson weighs in.

http://skepchick.org/2012/08/a-vs-a-...ng-imperative/
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Old 22nd August 2012, 09:30 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
Unfortunately, in my experience, broken glassware often correlates with the wrong bodily fluids.

ETA: but maybe I've been doing it wrong
Nah--just with the wrong people.

Originally Posted by Merton
perhaps atheists are more prone to dislike prejudice (which seems to be the "Plus" in Atheism+) because we don't have a supernatural authority dictating which group(s) of people are immoral?
I don't think you can make such a statement. Atheism is too diverse to make ANY broad generalization other than "we don't believe in deities". I've met atheists that are extremely racist.

Quote:
it could probably use a different name, but that's a minor quibble.
Not really. The name they chose implies, at least to outsiders, that this IS atheism, or at least that the group speaks for all of atheism. It may be wrong, but that's how it will be read. Remember, many of us live in environments where atheism is considered justification for everything from legal discrimination to outright attacks--we're not dealing with honest or even moral opponents much of the time, and some of us are going to want to distance ourselves from this group (it's inevitable in a group as diverse as atheism).
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Old 22nd August 2012, 09:32 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by franklinveaux View Post
Well, yes and no.

I get where you're coming from, and I agree: the absence of an affirmative belief in supernatural deities has nothing on the face of it to do with politics, social justice, or anything else.

However, in the US and in some other countries, political parties, ideology, laws, social mores, and political platforms are largely bound up in religious beliefs. When one lives in a nominally progressive, First World nation which has had a president in recent history who has said "atheists should not be citizens; this is one nation under God" or a political party platform that is largely rationalized on a particular interpretation of a particular holy scripture, it becomes a lot harder to say that "being an atheist" has nothing to do with politics or social ideas.
True, religion informs political opinions because the religious have doctrines to follow, ... but we atheists don't. Our common ground in politics amounts to a message of secularism, which we can accomplish just as well in the loose-knit atheist/skeptic community we've created. I guess I just think that dividing us into atheists, New Atheists, Atheist Pluses, and Atheist 2.0s will detract from our effectiveness in promoting secularism.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 10:02 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
I don't think you can make such a statement. Atheism is too diverse to make ANY broad generalization other than "we don't believe in deities". I've met atheists that are extremely racist.
Yeah, I kind of figured that (hence the question mark). 'Twas just a thought I had.

Quote:
Not really. The name they chose implies, at least to outsiders, that this IS atheism, or at least that the group speaks for all of atheism. It may be wrong, but that's how it will be read.
Exactly. I'd say people have a duty to correct their misunderstanding, but the group could easily pick a new name that avoids this confusion altogether, especially since it is in its formative phase.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 10:10 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Merton View Post
Yeah, I kind of figured that (hence the question mark). 'Twas just a thought I had.


It's the ideal. Sadly, people can make smart choices for very stupid reasons. :/

Quote:
True, religion informs political opinions because the religious have doctrines to follow, ... but we atheists don't.
Well, let's be clear: individual religions exert great influence on politics, but theism as such doesn't really do much. The problem is that the focus on atheism as a definitive trait is in part what's limiting us. Catholics can exert political influence because they have a broad agreement on issues they consider important, and therefore can bring a lot of political pressure to bear. Theism as such can't do that, and neither can atheism--we're too diverse. In that sense, yeah, I see the point in making groups of atheists focused on spreading particular social norms. It allows us to concentrate our efforts, and to build a solid political block that can actually DO something. Hearding atheists as a whole is like hearding cats, but hearding groups of atheists isn't all that hard.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 10:19 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Ocelot View Post
Pretty good article. I really like her argument to leave atheism alone and fix Humanism. I'm not a Humanist (I chose another vehicle for political change), but, assuming these two women's accounts are representative of a larger problem, it sounds as if they could use some reform.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 02:03 PM   #48
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This has FAIL written all over it.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 02:38 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
This has FAIL written all over it.
It's FAIL+. Get with the program.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 02:42 PM   #50
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This sound like a plain vanilla social justice movement lead by social justice warriors with an atheist background. It could also have been Catholics +, Vegans +, Jugglers +, or Marathon runners +. After reading endless tweets, and blogs, the number of people who would meet their standards is not likely very big.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 02:51 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Syntactically incorrect.

The next level of atheism is "atheism++"

I can see some interesting parallels between Atheism/Atheism+ and C/C++.

C is a minimalistic bare-bones language. It has it's uses, but lacks features of higher-level languages. So Bjarne Stroustrup comes along and decides to create a new language, C++, which is like C but with all the extra stuff the other languages had!

The result? A language whose higher-level features were crippled by a heroic, but doomed attempt to add these features whilst maintaining compatibility with C.

So why did he even try for C compatibility in the first place? Because C was popular! It was the "in thing" at the time. By feigning compatibility with C, C++ was able to ride C's coat-tails, for a short while at least.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 03:19 PM   #52
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Why do people follow these blogs? How's this article remotely interesting? Many people from this forum say more interesting things in most of their posts.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 03:21 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Mister Agenda View Post
Yes, let's waste all the time we've put into explaining atheism is just not believing in gods and start calling secular humanism atheism plus.

I mean, let's not.
Atheism Plus... Is that a new, over the counter hemorroid medication.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 03:24 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Syntactically incorrect.

The next level of atheism is "atheism++"

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Old 22nd August 2012, 03:31 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Ocelot View Post
Ironic that the woman/women who dragged feminism back 30 years are now discussing the future of atheism and humanism. Gee... I can't imagine what the results will be.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 04:39 PM   #56
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just check the posts under the hashtag #atheismplus for a laugh.

can you separate the parody from the serious?

they've gotten so much grief there, they tried to co-op the #aplus tag, but others are already using it, and THAT was hilarious to read as well when it first started happening.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 06:57 PM   #57
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Another FtBlogger heard from...

Richard Carrier has now weighed in, with what amounts to an Atheism+ manifesto: http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/2207/

He makes it abundantly clear that, if you are not willing to declare yourself an Atheist+ forthwith and unreservedly, you are a sexist, racist scumbag lacking in all reason, compassion and integrity. Though he does advocate giving such sorry excuses for humanity (ordinary atheists like me) one chance to repent our sins, telling his A+ readers to "...be empathic enough to assume at first that someone being an ignorant dufus is really just ignorant and misinformed, and not a douchebag; give them at least one shot at being educable, before kicking them into the sewers to wallow with their peeps."

The implication is, of course, that he and his A+ colleagues are the infallible arbiters of reason, compassion, and integrity.

Hmph.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 07:21 PM   #58
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I looked at Carrier's blog and one paragraph caught my eye:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<
1. We believe in being reasonable. This means, first, that we believe in being logical and rational in forming beliefs and opinions. Which means anyone who makes a fallacious argument and, when shown that they have, does not admit it, is not one of us, and is to be marginalized and kicked out, as not part of our movement, and not anyone we any longer wish to deal with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This is very much like the treatment of Jehovah's Witnesses people in disfellowshipping. How can you be disfellowshipped in atheism?
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Old 22nd August 2012, 07:41 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley View Post
Richard Carrier has now weighed in, with what amounts to an Atheism+ manifesto: http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/2207/

He makes it abundantly clear that, if you are not willing to declare yourself an Atheist+ forthwith and unreservedly, you are a sexist, racist scumbag lacking in all reason, compassion and integrity. Though he does advocate giving such sorry excuses for humanity (ordinary atheists like me) one chance to repent our sins, telling his A+ readers to "...be empathic enough to assume at first that someone being an ignorant dufus is really just ignorant and misinformed, and not a douchebag; give them at least one shot at being educable, before kicking them into the sewers to wallow with their peeps."

The implication is, of course, that he and his A+ colleagues are the infallible arbiters of reason, compassion, and integrity.

Hmph.
Holy crap, reading his responses in the comments to critics... Douchebag, irrational scum, GTFO... He sounds like a Rush Limbaugh / Ayn Rand hate child.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 07:41 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley View Post
Richard Carrier has now weighed in, with what amounts to an Atheism+ manifesto: http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/2207/

He makes it abundantly clear that, if you are not willing to declare yourself an Atheist+ forthwith and unreservedly, you are a sexist, racist scumbag lacking in all reason, compassion and integrity. Though he does advocate giving such sorry excuses for humanity (ordinary atheists like me) one chance to repent our sins, telling his A+ readers to "...be empathic enough to assume at first that someone being an ignorant dufus is really just ignorant and misinformed, and not a douchebag; give them at least one shot at being educable, before kicking them into the sewers to wallow with their peeps."

The implication is, of course, that he and his A+ colleagues are the infallible arbiters of reason, compassion, and integrity.

Hmph.
So, essentially, they have created a new religion, dogma and all, and are now setting down methods of conversion.

Is it too soon to start mocking them? If so, when would be a good time?
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Old 22nd August 2012, 07:56 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley View Post
Richard Carrier has now weighed in, with what amounts to an Atheism+ manifesto: http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/2207/

He makes it abundantly clear that, if you are not willing to declare yourself an Atheist+ forthwith and unreservedly, you are a sexist, racist scumbag lacking in all reason, compassion and integrity. Though he does advocate giving such sorry excuses for humanity (ordinary atheists like me) one chance to repent our sins, telling his A+ readers to "...be empathic enough to assume at first that someone being an ignorant dufus is really just ignorant and misinformed, and not a douchebag; give them at least one shot at being educable, before kicking them into the sewers to wallow with their peeps."

The implication is, of course, that he and his A+ colleagues are the infallible arbiters of reason, compassion, and integrity.

Hmph.
Yeah, and the problem with secular humanism is that it's just too damned inclusive.

Honestly, his shrill demands for demonizing and marginalizing anyone who disagrees with him seem to me no different than any other cult leader trying to cement his power.

Vile = being mean to the people I like
Compassionate = being mean to the people who are mean to the people I like

I wonder how he reconciles his preference for the term "douchebag" with his strident feminism, but not enough to read more of his stuff.

I agree with some of what he says, but his dogmatic tone and demands for groupthink and ideological purity marching in lockstep toward a better tomorrow make him nothing but another demagogue trying to whip up a mob in my book. I'm sticking with the herd of cats.

Or, as Richard says, "one vote for douchery. Got it."
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Old 22nd August 2012, 08:01 PM   #62
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"to start a blog series building a system of shared values that separates the light side of the force from the dark side within the atheism movement, so we could start marginalizing the evil in our midst, and grooming the next generation more consistently and clearly into a system of more enlightened humanist values. Then I just got overwhelmed with work and kept putting it off on my calendar for when I had a good half a day or so to get started on that project."

HAHAhahahaHAHAHA!!!! Oh mercy. That is SOLID. ***********. GOLD. MONEY.

Wow, oh man. Earth shattering changes! VIA BLOG!, but I'm a skotch busy now.

Cripes that is unbelievable. If a truther posted that garbage here, he'd be laughed off the site.

Is Free Thought Blogs a Poe site?

eta:

"2. We believe in being compassionate. That means we believe it is important to have empathy for other people (men, women, white people, black people, rich people, poor people, and anyone suffering illness or misfortune or unfair treatment, and so on) and to act in the best interests of human happiness (rather than in the interests of our own vanity, greed, or self-righteousness, for example).

.... And if you are complicit in that, or don’t even see what’s wrong with it, or worse, plan to engage in Christian-style apologetics for it, defending it with the same ******** fallacies and tactics the Christians use to defend their own immorality or that of their fictional god, then I don’t want anything to do with you. You are despicable. You are an awful person. You disgust me. You are not my people."

Poe site right? Nobody could be this big a hypocrite
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Old 22nd August 2012, 08:06 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by WillyWonka View Post
This is very much like the treatment of Jehovah's Witnesses people in disfellowshipping. How can you be disfellowshipped in atheism?
Quote:
Qayak: So, essentially, they have created a new religion, dogma and all, and are now setting down methods of conversion.
Both are fair comments. On a personal level, I'm sad and disappointed; I went to a debate Richard did in Calgary, and had a great time with him and the other local skeptics at the post-debate bar session. He's a nice guy - but this new dogmatism is very disturbing.

ETA: Zeggman and 16.5's posts came up when I refreshed. Yup, I'm also happy to remain in the douchebag brigade. And I sincerely wish it was a Poe site, but it ain't.

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Old 22nd August 2012, 08:18 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley View Post
Both are fair comments. On a personal level, I'm sad and disappointed; I went to a debate Richard did in Calgary, and had a great time with him and the other local skeptics at the post-debate bar session. He's a nice guy - but this new dogmatism is very disturbing.

ETA: Zeggman and 16.5's posts came up when I refreshed. Yup, I'm also happy to remain in the douchebag brigade. And I sincerely wish it was a Poe site, but it ain't.
Well it is baffling, why are the alleged free thinkers at "Free Thought Blog" staking out a civil war right in the middle of what they must consider their real battle?

It is like they are Patton and he got his wish to attack the USSR, but is doing it right in the middle of the Battle of Stalingrad.

Atheism Plus= Pyrrhic Victory Plus.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 08:32 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Well it is baffling, why are the alleged free thinkers at "Free Thought Blog" staking out a civil war right in the middle of what they must consider their real battle?

It is like they are Patton and he got his wish to attack the USSR, but are doing it right in the middle of the Battle of Stalingrad.

Atheism Plus= Pyrrhic Victory Plus.
Alas, it looks like they now consider the civil war to be their real battle. And us douchebags - ahem, "vanilla atheists" - are clearly the real enemy.

(I like your Patton analogy.)
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Old 22nd August 2012, 08:57 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by nelsondogg View Post
Holy crap, reading his responses in the comments to critics... Douchebag, irrational scum, GTFO... He sounds like a Rush Limbaugh / Ayn Rand hate child.
Quote:
2. We believe in being compassionate.
Atheism + is failing already. I already have a more fitting label. Idiot atheists.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 09:04 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Kahalachan View Post
Atheism + is failing already. I already have a more fitting label. Idiot atheists.
To be perfectly honest, the biggest problem with that site (beyond the fact that the writing is horrible) is how stunningly self-absorbed those people are.

"you disgust me." Really? On what farking planet did he think that was an effective argument?

It tells me that he is an insignificant troll not worthy of consideration.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 11:17 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Kahalachan View Post
Atheism + is failing already. I already have a more fitting label. Idiot atheists.
Hmmmmm... that seems to imply a connection between atheism and their being idiots. How about we just call them 'Idiots" and their movement "Idiocy?"
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Old 22nd August 2012, 11:39 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by WillyWonka View Post
I looked at Carrier's blog and one paragraph caught my eye:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<
1. We believe in being reasonable. This means, first, that we believe in being logical and rational in forming beliefs and opinions. Which means anyone who makes a fallacious argument and, when shown that they have, does not admit it, is not one of us, and is to be marginalized and kicked out, as not part of our movement, and not anyone we any longer wish to deal with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This is very much like the treatment of Jehovah's Witnesses people in disfellowshipping. How can you be disfellowshipped in atheism?
It's called Secular Shunning. It's becoming a standard technique of the FTB commentariat.
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Old 22nd August 2012, 11:48 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Walter Ego View Post
It's called Secular Shunning. It's becoming a standard technique of the FTB commentariat.
And, to make it easy to identify who's in or out:
Originally Posted by Jen McCreight
I want to improve the atheist movement, not create a splinter faction or something. But itís fabulous marketing-wise and as a way to identify yourself as a progressive atheist, or whatever term you want to use. I know Iíd love for people to start wearing A+ pins and Surlyramics so I know who I want to chat with.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 01:30 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Skeeve View Post
just check the posts under the hashtag #atheismplus for a laugh.

can you separate the parody from the serious?

they've gotten so much grief there, they tried to co-op the #aplus tag, but others are already using it, and THAT was hilarious to read as well when it first started happening.
Hands up I admit it the @atheismplus account had me fooled there but...

https://twitter.com/atheismplus/stat...49214798417921

Quote:
I've noticed recently that ginger people rarely get invited to speak at atheist conferences. In future we need at least 50% on every panel..
Yup its a parody. The profile bio now reads

https://twitter.com/atheismplus

Quote:
This is an unofficial fan account of the new new movement. Are you ready for the THIRD WAVE of atheism? If not, GTFO.
They had me going for a while there.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 03:25 AM   #72
zeggman
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Originally Posted by Walter Ego View Post
It's called Secular Shunning. It's becoming a standard technique of the FTB commentariat.
Ah, human nature, endlessly amusing.

Still, the atheists who were so cocksure of the enlightened superiority of their agenda in the 1790s took to beheading the enemies of the revolution to purge
their ranks of retrograde opinions. I suppose mere secular shunning of the undesirables has to be considered some sort of progress.

If they ever do break out the guillotines, everyone will have to replace their A+ logos with A# (A-sharp). Quadruple plus good!
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Old 23rd August 2012, 03:26 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Ocelot View Post
Atheists plus we care about social justice,
Atheists plus we support womenís rights,
Atheists plus we protest racism,
Atheists plus we fight homophobia and transphobia,
Atheists plus we use critical thinking and skepticism.
Sorry, I'm just an atheist. I'll leave the religious ******** to someone else.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 04:32 AM   #74
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I don't think we have to worry too much about FTB.

Quote:
I will provide any intellectual artillery they need to expand this cause and make it successful.
Richard Carrier
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Old 23rd August 2012, 05:06 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Ocelot View Post
Quote:
Atheists plus we care about social justice,
Atheists plus we support womenís rights,
Atheists plus we protest racism,
Atheists plus we fight homophobia and transphobia,
Atheists plus we use critical thinking and skepticism.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2012/08/atheism/
Atheists plus we need more cowbell. LOTS more cowbell.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 05:13 AM   #76
zeggman
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Originally Posted by Acleron View Post
I don't think we have to worry too much about FTB.

Richard Carrier
I recognize that making fun of someone's name is not a valid argument, and usually not even good humor, but a feminist named Dick Carrier? Oh, universe, are you sure there are no gods?
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Old 23rd August 2012, 06:45 AM   #77
The Central Scrutinizer
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Hmmmmm... that seems to imply a connection between atheism and their being idiots. How about we just call them 'Idiots" and their movement "Idiocy?"
"I+"?
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Old 23rd August 2012, 06:54 AM   #78
dasmiller
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Originally Posted by zeggman View Post
Atheists plus we need more cowbell. LOTS more cowbell.
Uh oh
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Old 23rd August 2012, 07:02 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Merton View Post
True, religion informs political opinions because the religious have doctrines to follow, ... but we atheists don't. Our common ground in politics amounts to a message of secularism [...]
Not even that: I've met atheists who claims that religion has benefits as regards social cohesion, morality, etc., and therefore it should be promoted by the state.
An incredibly misguided view in my opinion, but there are indeed atheists who hold it.

Also, I've met plenty of theists who are secularists. The smart/non-totalitarian ones tend to recognize the fact that the separation of religion and state is beneficial to everyone, whether they be theists or atheists.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 07:22 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
"You know, the Nazis had pieces of flair that they made the Jews wear."
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