ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags atheism , Atheism Plus

Closed Thread
Old 23rd August 2012, 07:28 AM   #81
16.5
Philosopher
 
16.5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,754
Originally Posted by Acleron View Post
I don't think we have to worry too much about FTB.


Richard Carrier
Intellectual artillery?

"In the meantime, I call everyone now to pick sides (not in comments here, but publicly, via Facebook or other social media): are you with us, or with them; are you now a part of the Atheism+ movement, or are you going to stick with Atheism Less?

Then at least well know who to work with. And who to avoid."

Sounds like a Beer Hall in Munich.

By the way, nice of Mr. Carrier to co-opt Jen's idea, with a false dichotomy no less.

Typical male.

Shun me Mr. Carrier, because I am with you AND with them.
__________________
The Fallacy of Pseudo-refuting Descriptions

The art of labeling an argument in a dismissive fashion being used as an argument in and of itself. Ex: Labeling facts as a conspiracy theory
16.5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 07:35 AM   #82
Mister Agenda
Illuminator
 
Mister Agenda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,090
Originally Posted by Merton View Post
Yeah, I kind of figured that (hence the question mark). 'Twas just a thought I had.



Exactly. I'd say people have a duty to correct their misunderstanding, but the group could easily pick a new name that avoids this confusion altogether, especially since it is in its formative phase.
My experience is that groups in their formative phase are unwilling to reconsider their name because the project is somebody's or a few people's baby and they are attached to the name they've already decided on. Which is a shame, because names are important and input from people not in the in-group can be valuable. If the National Atheist Party had called itself something like the Secular Progressive Party it would probably have been able to get many more atheists (and theists) to support it than have done so. There were voices right at the beginning saying things like 'hey, this is identity politics'; and 'hey, you say you welcome theists, but you chose a name that automatically excludes them'.
Mister Agenda is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 07:48 AM   #83
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,589
Originally Posted by Mister Agenda
Which is a shame, because names are important and input from people not in the in-group can be valuable.
Well, apparently Atheism+ doesn't see it that way. They're already talking uniforms for members, and actively shunning anyone who disagrees with them after minor offenses. Even Ayn Rand accepted people who made what she considered repeated and significant errors, and the Inquisition gave you every opportunity to confess and be absolved while they tortured you (that they'd still kill you was a quirk of their philosophy).

It really is disturbing that a bunch of adults can think this way.
__________________
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 07:55 AM   #84
squealpiggy
Graduate Poster
 
squealpiggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,468
Hey people! IT'S TIME TO PICK SIDES.

OK. Picked.
squealpiggy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 08:09 AM   #85
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,589
Originally Posted by squealpiggy View Post
Hey people! IT'S TIME TO PICK SIDES.

OK. Picked.
I have a standard response to "You're either with me or against me": I choose "against". Anyone who has so little respect for me as to make such an asinine statement isn't someone I want to associate with.

Originally Posted by Carrier
1. We believe in being reasonable. This means, first, that we believe in being logical and rational in forming beliefs and opinions. Which means anyone who makes a fallacious argument and, when shown that they have, does not admit it, is not one of us, and is to be marginalized and kicked out, as not part of our movement, and not anyone we any longer wish to deal with.
In Skyrim there's a religious organization that goes around attacking anyone who has Daedric artifacts. They serve, ironically, the god of mercy in the game--their logic being that the most merciful thing they can do to someone who's fallen so low as to consort with Daedra is to turn them into a ragged pile of amorphous meat. This quote could have come directly from them.
__________________
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 08:19 AM   #86
westprog
Philosopher
 
westprog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,928
Originally Posted by RockNroll View Post
Not even that: I've met atheists who claims that religion has benefits as regards social cohesion, morality, etc., and therefore it should be promoted by the state.
An incredibly misguided view in my opinion, but there are indeed atheists who hold it.

Also, I've met plenty of theists who are secularists. The smart/non-totalitarian ones tend to recognize the fact that the separation of religion and state is beneficial to everyone, whether they be theists or atheists.
It's a fascinating little social experiment. Get a bunch of people together who agree about one thing. Then you find that some of them are acting badly. Rather than institute a few simple rules of behaviour, do an analysis of the problem and decide that the issue isn't behaviour, it's ideological stance. Start a new sub-group with a set of values that aren't up for debate or even precise examination, and subject anyone querying it to the kind of abuse that characterised the problem in the first place. It's like a mini-version of the Cultural Revolution.

"So you're against tolerance and civility? Get lost, douchebag!"
__________________
Dreary whiner, who gradually outwore his welcome, before blowing it entirely.
westprog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 08:44 AM   #87
16.5
Philosopher
 
16.5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,754
By the way, the intellectual howitzer of the Atheism Plusalittlebitofthoughtcontrol, the pop gun of Plus, the A-Bomb of the atheists, the Daisy Cuuter to the deists, Rich Carrier opens up with this charming turn of phrase:

"There is a new atheism brewing, and it’s the rift we need, to cut free the dead weight so we can kick the C.H.U.D.’s back into the sewers and finally disown them, once and for all."

Is C.H.U.D. an acronym that the cool kids at FtB use or is really a reference to that 80's movie C.H.U.D Canibalistic Humanoid Underground Dweller?

I either case, it is ridiculously juvenile.
__________________
The Fallacy of Pseudo-refuting Descriptions

The art of labeling an argument in a dismissive fashion being used as an argument in and of itself. Ex: Labeling facts as a conspiracy theory
16.5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 08:50 AM   #88
RebeccaBradley
Critical Thinker
 
RebeccaBradley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 449
Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Is C.H.U.D. an acronym that the cool kids at FtB use or is really a reference to that 80's movie C.H.U.D Canibalistic Humanoid Underground Dweller?

I either case, it is ridiculously juvenile.
Oh, so that's what it means. One of the commenters asked Richard that, and he said something like Cannibalistic Mutant Sewer Dweller, which I noticed did not add up to CHUD. More like CMSD. Thanks for the illumination!
RebeccaBradley is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 08:56 AM   #89
zeggman
Graduate Poster
 
zeggman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,911
Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley View Post
Oh, so that's what it means. One of the commenters asked Richard that, and he said something like Cannibalistic Mutant Sewer Dweller, which I noticed did not add up to CHUD. More like CMSD. Thanks for the illumination!
I recognized the acronym from that movie I've never seen, but I was sure the A+sters had assigned it to some hip new set of insulting terms.

How disappointing.
zeggman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 09:01 AM   #90
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,589
Originally Posted by zeggman View Post
I recognized the acronym from that movie I've never seen, but I was sure the A+sters had assigned it to some hip new set of insulting terms.

How disappointing.
I say, as soon as we see A+ pins the rest of us start wearing CHUD pins. I mean, in the USA how many of our national symbols started as insults?
__________________
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 09:05 AM   #91
KoihimeNakamura
Creativity Murderer
 
KoihimeNakamura's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: In 2.5 million spinning tons of metal, above Epsilion Eridani III
Posts: 7,902
Guys,I'm starting Skeptics*, so we can always take precedence in operations.
__________________
Don't mind me.
KoihimeNakamura is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 09:09 AM   #92
Merton
Muse
 
Merton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 576
Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura View Post
Guys,I'm starting Skeptics*, so we can always take precedence in operations.
And everyone knows that splats (*) are more inclusive than pluses (+) anyway.

[/REGEX JOKE]
__________________
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." - Thomas Paine
"We are convinced that liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; and that socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality." - Mikhail Bakunin
Merton is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 09:10 AM   #93
zeggman
Graduate Poster
 
zeggman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,911
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
I say, as soon as we see A+ pins the rest of us start wearing CHUD pins. I mean, in the USA how many of our national symbols started as insults?
Well, if I'm going to wear one, it's going to stand for Cool Humanist Upsetting Douchebags. I've never eaten a human in my life.
zeggman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 09:15 AM   #94
16.5
Philosopher
 
16.5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,754
Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura View Post
Guys,I'm starting Skeptics*, so we can always take precedence in operations.
I'm goint to start Aaathiesm Plus so I'm first in the freaking yellow pages.
__________________
The Fallacy of Pseudo-refuting Descriptions

The art of labeling an argument in a dismissive fashion being used as an argument in and of itself. Ex: Labeling facts as a conspiracy theory
16.5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 09:18 AM   #95
El_Spectre
Lizard Scum
 
El_Spectre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,206
Originally Posted by squealpiggy View Post
Hey people! IT'S TIME TO PICK SIDES.

OK. Picked.
Splitter!
__________________
Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. - Ambrose Bierce

Question your argument if you must mock your opponent to make it...

Step 1 in helping spread the skeptical way of thinking: Don't be a jerk.
El_Spectre is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 09:18 AM   #96
RebeccaBradley
Critical Thinker
 
RebeccaBradley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 449
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
I say, as soon as we see A+ pins the rest of us start wearing CHUD pins. I mean, in the USA how many of our national symbols started as insults?
I love it! How about some fake Surlyramic CHUD necklaces....?
RebeccaBradley is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 09:26 AM   #97
16.5
Philosopher
 
16.5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,754
Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley View Post
I love it! How about some fake Surlyramic CHUD necklaces....?
Should be pretty simple, just a dab of paint or two to transform this:

CHO
__________________
The Fallacy of Pseudo-refuting Descriptions

The art of labeling an argument in a dismissive fashion being used as an argument in and of itself. Ex: Labeling facts as a conspiracy theory
16.5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 09:26 AM   #98
Myriad
Hyperthetical
Moderator
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,848
Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley View Post
I love it! How about some fake Surlyramic CHUD necklaces....?

How about real ones? I'm sure Amy would make them if enough requests came in. Carrier should approve, because it serves the valuable purpose of flagging the impure and unholy.
__________________
Actually, most of my friends are pretty smart. So if they all jumped off a bridge I'd at least try to find out if they had a good reason.
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 09:30 AM   #99
westprog
Philosopher
 
westprog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,928
Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
By the way, the intellectual howitzer of the Atheism Plusalittlebitofthoughtcontrol, the pop gun of Plus, the A-Bomb of the atheists, the Daisy Cuuter to the deists, Rich Carrier opens up with this charming turn of phrase:

"There is a new atheism brewing, and its the rift we need, to cut free the dead weight so we can kick the C.H.U.D.s back into the sewers and finally disown them, once and for all."

Is C.H.U.D. an acronym that the cool kids at FtB use or is really a reference to that 80's movie C.H.U.D Canibalistic Humanoid Underground Dweller?

I either case, it is ridiculously juvenile.
Strangely enough, the supposed problems of the atheist community - abusiveness, sexism, racism - don't seem to apply on this forum. Gender and race are as visible as people want them to be. Enforcement of the no-abuse rule is very imperfect, but it's existence tends to damp down personalisation. Especially annoying people can be put on ignore. Nobody seems to feel the need to find a JREF+ where there is consensus and friendship.
__________________
Dreary whiner, who gradually outwore his welcome, before blowing it entirely.
westprog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 09:31 AM   #100
dasmiller
Just the right amount of cowbell
 
dasmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Well past Hither, looking for Yon
Posts: 4,660
I'm a charter member of AANAFD, or Atheists Against Naziism and False Dichotomies.

Anyone who isn't a member is a Nazi who agrees with false dichotomies.
__________________
"In times of war, we need warriors. But this isn't a war." - Phil Plaitt

Last edited by dasmiller; 23rd August 2012 at 09:34 AM.
dasmiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 09:37 AM   #101
RebeccaBradley
Critical Thinker
 
RebeccaBradley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 449
Originally Posted by westprog View Post
Strangely enough, the supposed problems of the atheist community - abusiveness, sexism, racism - don't seem to apply on this forum. Gender and race are as visible as people want them to be. Enforcement of the no-abuse rule is very imperfect, but it's existence tends to damp down personalisation. Especially annoying people can be put on ignore. Nobody seems to feel the need to find a JREF+ where there is consensus and friendship.
I guess that means this forum is not a "safe space".

Good.
RebeccaBradley is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 09:47 AM   #102
Walter Wayne
Wayne's Words
 
Walter Wayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,502
If the comments on Greta's most recent post are any indication, there are a fair number of people who hope other Atheists+ distances themselves from Carrier's post.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/20...-atheism-plus/
Walter Wayne is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 09:47 AM   #103
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,589
Originally Posted by zeggman View Post
Well, if I'm going to wear one, it's going to stand for Cool Humanist Upsetting Douchebags. I've never eaten a human in my life.
There's a crude joke here, I know it....

Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley
I love it! How about some fake Surlyramic CHUD necklaces....?
I typed "chud" into Google and searched for pictures. They're still prettier than a borophagus. Plus, if it gets really nasty, we can buy masks!
__________________
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 09:49 AM   #104
Kochanski
Master Poster
 
Kochanski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Anonymous Unimportant Place (not a secret Scorpion training facility for Shosuro ninjas)
Posts: 2,923
Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley View Post
I love it! How about some fake Surlyramic CHUD necklaces....?
Oh, I think we can do better than that

This etsy shop does lovely silver stuff that is about the same price as surly and they do custom work http://www.etsy.com/listing/85653294...moticon-unisex

That way we don't have to give the drama llamas more amunition
__________________
The faith of a skeptic is always in doubt
Ninja weasel courtesy of http://www.cheeseweasel.net
LI Who - It's about Time
http://longislanddoctorwho.com/

Last edited by Kochanski; 23rd August 2012 at 09:51 AM. Reason: forgot something
Kochanski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 09:51 AM   #105
16.5
Philosopher
 
16.5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,754
Originally Posted by westprog View Post
Strangely enough, the supposed problems of the atheist community - abusiveness, sexism, racism - don't seem to apply on this forum. Gender and race are as visible as people want them to be. Enforcement of the no-abuse rule is very imperfect, but it's existence tends to damp down personalisation. Especially annoying people can be put on ignore. Nobody seems to feel the need to find a JREF+ where there is consensus and friendship.
JREF+? Holy crap, that was my idea! and I was going to write a blog about it in June but the Cubs were in town, and now I am going to write a 10,000 word manifesto about it where the conclusion will ask are you for or against me, but adding a Planet X option, you know, for the kids.

Yours in Double Plus Goodness

Richie Carrier 16.5
__________________
The Fallacy of Pseudo-refuting Descriptions

The art of labeling an argument in a dismissive fashion being used as an argument in and of itself. Ex: Labeling facts as a conspiracy theory

Last edited by 16.5; 23rd August 2012 at 10:14 AM.
16.5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 09:57 AM   #106
westprog
Philosopher
 
westprog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,928
Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley View Post
I guess that means this forum is not a "safe space".

Good.
JREF+ will be a very, very safe space. Think a cushion-filled nuclear bunker with a full fridge.
__________________
Dreary whiner, who gradually outwore his welcome, before blowing it entirely.
westprog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 10:07 AM   #107
El_Spectre
Lizard Scum
 
El_Spectre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,206
[Removed silly joke, I got all excited about a nuke and a fridge...]
__________________
Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. - Ambrose Bierce

Question your argument if you must mock your opponent to make it...

Step 1 in helping spread the skeptical way of thinking: Don't be a jerk.

Last edited by El_Spectre; 23rd August 2012 at 10:20 AM. Reason: lame joke.
El_Spectre is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 10:08 AM   #108
RebeccaBradley
Critical Thinker
 
RebeccaBradley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 449
Originally Posted by westprog View Post
JREF+ will be a very, very safe space. Think a cushion-filled nuclear bunker with a full fridge.
And a beer fridge? Perhaps I should reconsider...
RebeccaBradley is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 10:13 AM   #109
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,753
Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
"I+"?
More like "I^n"
__________________
"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them."

(Mark Twain)
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 10:20 AM   #110
westprog
Philosopher
 
westprog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,928
Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley View Post
And a beer fridge? Perhaps I should reconsider...
An extensive library of books, CD's and DVD's, with all potentially offensive material removed.
__________________
Dreary whiner, who gradually outwore his welcome, before blowing it entirely.
westprog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 10:21 AM   #111
zeggman
Graduate Poster
 
zeggman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,911
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
More like "I^n"
I'm I^n with the I^n crowd
I know what the I^n crowd knows
I'm I^n with the I^n crowd
I go where the I^n crowd goes
zeggman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 10:22 AM   #112
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,753
Been thinking about this whole A+ thing and I am confused to the point that I don't know how to react... and then I realized... That makes me A(non+).

I think I'll start my own group. Anyone interested? Alcohol will be in the mission statement!
__________________
"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them."

(Mark Twain)
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 10:25 AM   #113
Resume
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,730
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Been thinking about this whole A+ thing and I am confused to the point that I don't know how to react... and then I realized... That makes me A(non+).

I think I'll start my own group. Anyone interested? Alcohol will be in the mission statement!
So that would be Atheist + Alcohol = ?
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 10:39 AM   #114
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,753
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
So that would be Atheist + Alcohol = ?
I'm not sure you have what it takes to join. The official logo will be"

A(non+)^Alcohol > G+O+D!
__________________
"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them."

(Mark Twain)
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 11:35 AM   #115
Humes fork
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,364
Can some American please vote for the Libertarian Party in November and tell these clowns that it's because of them? Lots of beers promised when we are together in the dungeons of Carrier and Myers.

On a more serious note, I get the impression that what they don't like is that there are so many atheists and skeptics and humanists who are white males. While I'm all for trying to attract all sorts of people to skepticism, to complain at the attendees that most people who show up on meetups and the like are white males is silly. The people who show up are the ones who are interested and for whom it is convenient. What do you suggest, forcing women and minorities to attend at the point of a gun?

I hope this will just die out. There is just no chance that Skeptics Society, JREF, RDF and the like are going to officially sign up for Atheism+. Let Freethought Blogs drown in cyberspace.

If you are going to put me on your ignore list due to this post, please quote it and say so in this thread. Thank you.

Last edited by Humes fork; 23rd August 2012 at 11:36 AM.
Humes fork is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 11:37 AM   #116
Hokulele
Official Nemesis
 
Hokulele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 28,139
Originally Posted by RebeccaBradley View Post
Richard Carrier has now weighed in, with what amounts to an Atheism+ manifesto: http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/2207/

He makes it abundantly clear that, if you are not willing to declare yourself an Atheist+ forthwith and unreservedly, you are a sexist, racist scumbag lacking in all reason, compassion and integrity. Though he does advocate giving such sorry excuses for humanity (ordinary atheists like me) one chance to repent our sins, telling his A+ readers to "...be empathic enough to assume at first that someone being an ignorant dufus is really just ignorant and misinformed, and not a douchebag; give them at least one shot at being educable, before kicking them into the sewers to wallow with their peeps."

The implication is, of course, that he and his A+ colleagues are the infallible arbiters of reason, compassion, and integrity.

Hmph.

The best way to reach out to people who may disagree with you and possibly change their minds is to call them names and ignore them?

Yeah, that will work...
__________________
Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!"
Some person: "Why did you shoot that?"
Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!"

- Tragic Monkey
Hokulele is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 11:50 AM   #117
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,589
Originally Posted by Humes fork
On a more serious note, I get the impression that what they don't like is that there are so many atheists and skeptics and humanists who are white males. While I'm all for trying to attract all sorts of people to skepticism, to complain at the attendees that most people who show up on meetups and the like are white males is silly. The people who show up are the ones who are interested and for whom it is convenient. What do you suggest, forcing women and minorities to attend at the point of a gun?
I've never understood this type of complaint (that not enough minorities are attending meetings, not you complaining about the complaint). First, it's simply racist--there's no other term for it. You're judging a movement as a failure because of race. Second, there are only three ways to fix it:

1) Keep old white men out,
2) Force other groups to attend,
3) Become interesting to other groups

For some reason, option #3 never seems to come to mind. Atheism+ chose #1.
__________________
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 11:55 AM   #118
El_Spectre
Lizard Scum
 
El_Spectre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,206
Originally Posted by Humes fork View Post
While I'm all for trying to attract all sorts of people to skepticism, to complain at the attendees that most people who show up on meetups and the like are white males is silly. The people who show up are the ones who are interested and for whom it is convenient. What do you suggest, forcing women and minorities to attend at the point of a gun?
Ok, seriousness then.

Obviously, the environment shouldn't be hostile to particular genders, ethnicities, etc. That's a given. And I'm pleased to see that the demographics at TAM at least have gotten more diverse.

That said, it always makes me a little uneasy (as one of those evil white males) when someone - whether a speaker or a friend in the bar - starts talking about how much "we" need to "include" and "draw in" women, minorities, etc. to the event or "movement". The intent is good, but man, does it come off as condescending. It almost sounds like women and non-whites need to be rescued, to be enlightened.

That kind of thinking is unintentionally disrespectful, I think, and it makes me kinda sad.
__________________
Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. - Ambrose Bierce

Question your argument if you must mock your opponent to make it...

Step 1 in helping spread the skeptical way of thinking: Don't be a jerk.
El_Spectre is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 12:00 PM   #119
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,589
Originally Posted by El_Spectre
Obviously, the environment shouldn't be hostile to particular genders, ethnicities, etc. That's a given.
The problem arises when people take mere numbers as proof that the environment is hostile. It's a basic failure of logic--they've latched on to one pet hypothesis, and frequently refuse to even consider any others. In some cases, as Atheism+ demonstrates, this takes on a religious ferver, and can even turn violent (though this is, in my experience, usually limited to small-scale altercations).

Old white men dominate open atheists. Okay, that could mean there's a problem. The solution isn't to demand we fix it right now--the solution is to find out if there IS a problem first. It could very well be that there isn't--this could all be a statistical anomaly, or caused by some other factor none of us has considered yet. Atheism could be the most open and inviting group on the planet, embracing all colors, sexes, races, and genders, but it could still be dominated by one group because frankly more of that group are interested in what atheism is selling.
__________________
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2012, 12:04 PM   #120
franklinveaux
Scholar
 
franklinveaux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 100
Originally Posted by Ocelot View Post
I've swung back and forth on whether @Atheism+ is parody or not. At least 90% seems pretty dead pan then they say something that seems so full of crazy you realise they can't be serious. But then you realise that the crazy thing didn't originate from @Atheism+ but was a retweet from Jen McCreight herself.
Wow, seriously? For reals? How can anyone not read that Twitter account and see that it's parody? (In particular, it's a meanspirited parody of some of the ideas of third-wave feminism; that's why the Twitter account makes specific and frequent mention of "third-wave atheism." It even says so in the Twitter description.)

Folks....it's parody. It doesn't rise to the level of humor of the Landover Baptist Church Web site, and it's certainly nowhere near The Onion, but it's parody. It's not serious. Not a word of it. It's a reaction against complaints that the skeptic and atheist community is misogynistic, which deliberately borrows language from Third Wave feminism to attack people who complain about misogyny in the atheist community.

I happen to think it's poorly done; I do believe that the atheist and skeptic communities really do have a problem with misogyny. Obviously, the person or persons responsible for the Atheism+ Twitter feed disagree.
franklinveaux is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:02 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.