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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:11 PM   #1
Nihilianth
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BBC: Lance Armstrong to have his 7 titles stripped.

Watching the BBC right now, and just learned that Lance Armstrong is having his 7 Tour de France titles stripped, and banned from cycling for life. Doing a very quick and brief search on the internet, I cannot find any evidence against him doping, nor can I find the evidence that was used to strip him of his medals.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:13 PM   #2
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http://espn.go.com/olympics/cycling/...cycling-career
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:13 PM   #3
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The evidence is that he's not contesting the charges. Now that's happened, they have no choice but to strip him of his titles.

So who came second in those 7 Tours de France?
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:15 PM   #4
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Thank you for hte link. I'll read it tomorrow.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:16 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Nihilianth View Post
Watching the BBC right now, and just learned that Lance Armstrong is having his 7 Tour de France titles stripped, and banned from cycling for life. Doing a very quick and brief search on the internet, I cannot find any evidence against him doping, nor can I find the evidence that was used to strip him of his medals.

Actual hard evidence has been hinted at, but not confirmed AFAIK. The bulk of the USADA's case seems to rely on circumstantial evidence - Armstrong complained that the USADA offered leniency to numerous other riders in exchange for testimony.

Whoever ends up with the titles is almost certainly also a blood doper/PED user, so what's the point? I'd rather see my tax $ go towards education and prevention.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:24 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
The evidence is that he's not contesting the charges. Now that's happened, they have no choice but to strip him of his titles.

So who came second in those 7 Tours de France?

1999: Alex Zulle, admitted blood doper.
2000, 2001, 2003: Jan Ullrich, big-time blood doper
2002: Joseba Beloki, accused blood doper, cleared on a technicality
2004: Andreas Kloden, accused blood doper
2005: Ivan Basso, admitted blood doper

Ladies and gentlemen, your new champions!

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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:27 PM   #7
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Well, that doesn't look good.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:33 PM   #8
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I have a doubt
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:43 PM   #9
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Is it at the point where we can just assume all of the top guys are doping?

And if this is the case does it matter? Call it the unlimited class.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:46 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Nihilianth View Post
Watching the BBC right now, and just learned that Lance Armstrong is having his 7 Tour de France titles stripped, and banned from cycling for life. Doing a very quick and brief search on the internet, I cannot find any evidence against him doping, nor can I find the evidence that was used to strip him of his medals.
Except that USADA have no authority to strip him of anything, or in fact to bring these charges, given it's own 8 year statute of limitations. The whole case is bs.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:49 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
Call it the unlimited class.
Exactly. In fact, it would be interesting to see the difference. Split the money between dopers and non-dopers and let's see what the margins are.

I look at the Olympics and think "Gee! The "clean" runners this year are blowing the records of the dopers of a few years ago away. What are the chances?"
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:52 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
Is it at the point where we can just assume all of the top guys are doping?

And if this is the case does it matter? Call it the unlimited class.
I'm guessing you don't follow cycling. After Operacion Puerto in 2006 and the subsequent introduction of the Athlete Biological Passport the number of positive tests have dropped off hugely. Only 1 rider tested positive to anything this year at the Tour, Frank Schleck, and that was to a diuretic it's entirely possible he was deliberately spiked with (His team owe him half a million euros in back pay which they wouldn't have to pay if he was a doper)
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:53 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
The evidence is that he's not contesting the charges.
That's it.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:54 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Except that USADA have no authority to strip him of anything, or in fact to bring these charges, given it's own 8 year statute of limitations. The whole case is bs.
I once listened to Phil Liggett spend nearly an hour explaining exactly why Armstrong was so good. Specifically he pointed to techniques Armstrong pioneered which are now the accepted norm for anyone wanting to win this particular race

Liggett has always been very vocal about his anger towards riders using drugs in the sport. So if Liggett thinks Armstrong was clean......thats good enough for me
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:55 PM   #15
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Here is Armstrongs statement in full:
http://lancearmstrong.com/news-event...august-23-2012
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:55 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
That's it.
Yep - he basically said "I have had enough, I am not going to fight this fight anymore"
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:56 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by mikedenk View Post
1999: Alex Zulle, admitted blood doper.
2000, 2001, 2003: Jan Ullrich, big-time blood doper
2002: Joseba Beloki, accused blood doper, cleared on a technicality
2004: Andreas Kloden, accused blood doper
2005: Ivan Basso, admitted blood doper

Ladies and gentlemen, your new champions!
Wow, that's....not good.

Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Except that USADA have no authority to strip him of anything, or in fact to bring these charges, given it's own 8 year statute of limitations. The whole case is bs.
When I saw the USADA was stripping him of those titles, that's what made a lot of "BS alarm bells" start going off in my head. Who do they think they are? It would be like....what would it be like?

I guess it would kinda be like the MLB stripping the championship team of the World Baseball Classic of their victory. I dunno. Sounds strange that a US-based athletic association could somehow alter the records of an international competition.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:58 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Except that USADA have no authority to strip him of anything, or in fact to bring these charges, given it's own 8 year statute of limitations. The whole case is bs.
Actually, they do in a round about way. UCI is a signer of the World Anti-Doping Code. They really have no choice but to strip them.

Not sure about when the statute of limitations begins but Armstrong only retired last year.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:58 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
Yep - he basically said "I have had enough, I am not going to fight this fight anymore"
Not the way I read it, sorry.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 10:01 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Nihilianth View Post
Wow, that's....not good.



When I saw the USADA was stripping him of those titles, that's what made a lot of "BS alarm bells" start going off in my head. Who do they think they are? It would be like....what would it be like?

I guess it would kinda be like the MLB stripping the championship team of the World Baseball Classic of their victory. I dunno. Sounds strange that a US-based athletic association could somehow alter the records of an international competition.
Only the Union Cycliste Internationale have the authority to strip titles at Pro Tour level races, if I recall correctly.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 10:05 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Actually, they do in a round about way. UCI is a signer of the World Anti-Doping Code. They really have no choice but to strip them.

Not sure about when the statute of limitations begins but Armstrong only retired last year.
It may have escaped your notice, but USADA is not the UCI.

From Armstrongs statement:
I am a retired cyclist, yet USADA has lodged charges over 17 years old despite its own 8-year limitation. As respected organizations such as UCI and USA Cycling have made clear, USADA lacks jurisdiction even to bring these charges. The international bodies governing cycling have ordered USADA to stop, have given notice that no one should participate in USADA’s improper proceedings, and have made it clear the pronouncements by USADA that it has banned people for life or stripped them of their accomplishments are made without authority.


The statute of limitations begins the day the race is over.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 10:08 PM   #22
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The top news on the UCI website doesn't even mention Armstrong. It's nice to see some organisations aren't living in the past.

http://www.uci.ch/templates/UCI/UCI8...YzMDQ&LangId=1
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Old 23rd August 2012, 10:10 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
It may have escaped your notice, but USADA is not the UCI.

From Armstrongs statement:
I am a retired cyclist, yet USADA has lodged charges over 17 years old despite its own 8-year limitation. As respected organizations such as UCI and USA Cycling have made clear, USADA lacks jurisdiction even to bring these charges. The international bodies governing cycling have ordered USADA to stop, have given notice that no one should participate in USADA’s improper proceedings, and have made it clear the pronouncements by USADA that it has banned people for life or stripped them of their accomplishments are made without authority.


The statute of limitations begins the day the race is over.
Phew. So you're saying that Armstrong really did win 7 races.

Thank God for that, because now I don't have to alter my memories, like I still have yet to do with Penn State football.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 10:14 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
It may have escaped your notice, but USADA is not the UCI.
The USADA is in charge of all doping investigations in the US. When the USADA says Armstrong is guilty, the UCI has no choice but strip the titles under the international doping agreement.

ETA: And he was charged before the statute of limitations ran out on the last race he won, so under the rules, all races are in jeapardy as well as his bronze at the Olympics and all the money he got for racing.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 10:15 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
The top news on the UCI website doesn't even mention Armstrong. It's nice to see some organisations aren't living in the past.

http://www.uci.ch/templates/UCI/UCI8...YzMDQ&LangId=1
Is Armstrong your brother or something? Why are you taking this so hard?
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Old 23rd August 2012, 10:27 PM   #26
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Is there an explanation for passing several hundred tests?
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Old 23rd August 2012, 10:31 PM   #27
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I see a lot of "I passed the tests" but no "I didn't do it". Still, I think it's a dead horse they are beating.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 10:33 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
Is it at the point where we can just assume all of the top guys are doping?
Were doping. The evidence suggests the current guys aren't. The testing technology is better and the world of cycling is taking the whole thing more seriously. The riders are getting slower which is what we would expect.

From a purely bio-chemical POV any remaining drugs that our testing misses are going to be far weaker than they were in the Armstrong era. That means you are risking being caught (due to retained samples) for a far lesser gain.

During the Armstrong era it is unlikely that a clean human being could get to the top of road racing now they probably can.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 10:36 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Is there an explanation for passing several hundred tests?
Yes, testing tech was behind doping tech. USADA says they have blood tests from 1999 and as early as 1996 that are consistent with doping using the new technology.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 10:37 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Is there an explanation for passing several hundred tests?
Sure. The tests were less good than current tests and a less intensive testing regime means that it is possible to take drugs between races then stop taking them long enough for them to clear your system.

There is also the issue that the authorities really didn't seem to take the issue very seriously.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 11:06 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Nihilianth View Post
Phew. So you're saying that Armstrong really did win 7 races.

Thank God for that, because now I don't have to alter my memories, like I still have yet to do with Penn State football.
Yes, but that doesn't mean USADA won't say they've stripped the titles. They'll still say that, they'll be lying though. Those titles aren't going anywhere.

And even if they could, all the second and third place riders would be cheats as well, so giving wins to them is retarded.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 11:08 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
The USADA is in charge of all doping investigations in the US. When the USADA says Armstrong is guilty, the UCI has no choice but strip the titles under the international doping agreement.

ETA: And he was charged before the statute of limitations ran out on the last race he won, so under the rules, all races are in jeapardy as well as his bronze at the Olympics and all the money he got for racing.
That is incorrect. When he won his last race is irrelevant, unless you have proof he tested positive there, in which case you can strip that race and any subsequent race results and give him a 2 year ban from that date.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 11:11 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
Were doping. The evidence suggests the current guys aren't. The testing technology is better and the world of cycling is taking the whole thing more seriously. The riders are getting slower which is what we would expect.

From a purely bio-chemical POV any remaining drugs that our testing misses are going to be far weaker than they were in the Armstrong era. That means you are risking being caught (due to retained samples) for a far lesser gain.

During the Armstrong era it is unlikely that a clean human being could get to the top of road racing now they probably can.
All of this I agree with. Lance was either an absolute freak of nature or a doper. A case like this is no way to go about testing it though, the way USADA have behaved, particularly in offering to let riders off (also without any positive tests, btw) for testifying against Lance is counter to every doping case since the Festina Affair. It's completely ridiculous.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 11:12 PM   #34
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What are the possibilities of false positives from the drugs he was taking for cancer?
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Old 23rd August 2012, 11:13 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Yes, testing tech was behind doping tech. USADA says they have blood tests from 1999 and as early as 1996 that are consistent with doping using the new technology.
That may be true, but they can't actually use them as proof of anything due to their age.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 11:15 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
Sure. The tests were less good than current tests and a less intensive testing regime means that it is possible to take drugs between races then stop taking them long enough for them to clear your system.

There is also the issue that the authorities really didn't seem to take the issue very seriously.
Less intensive? Wasn't he tested around 600 times?
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Old 23rd August 2012, 11:17 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
What are the possibilities of false positives from the drugs he was taking for cancer?
Essentially zero, since he wasn't competing at the time.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 11:20 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Less intensive? Wasn't he tested around 600 times?
Its timing that is more important than numbers. If you aren't testing people during the off season (or in the case of some of the faster metabolising stuff first thing in the morning) you aren't going to see anything when dealing with a well supported doper.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 11:24 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
That may be true, but they can't actually use them as proof of anything due to their age.
They don't seem to be having any trouble using them. Up until now it has been an investigation and they haven't made much of anything public. In the next step, the evidence would have been presented to Armstrong and we would have heard a lot more about it.

In my mind, he got caught the same as all the other people, other cyclists, Olympians, track stars, baseball players, MMA fighters, etc.

No big deal. We know the truth.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 11:30 PM   #40
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The tests are unannounced. They can occur at any time.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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