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Old 19th January 2013, 08:42 AM   #921
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Originally Posted by Peephole View Post
People keep saying it's the cleanest it's ever been. But at least in the Tour the top riders of the past years (Schlecks and Contador) have been caught. Maybe 2012 and Wiggins was the first largely clean tour, but you'd have to wait at least a couple of years to make that conclusion.

The average time of the whole tour doesn't seem to be remarkably lower.
Climbing times were definitely up in the last tour.

Last edited by Marcus; 19th January 2013 at 09:45 AM. Reason: semantics
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Old 19th January 2013, 08:46 AM   #922
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Officials here have been reluctant to withdraw all of Lance's honors, citing his charity work, so an anonymous citizen has chipped in to help with a can of spray paint, renaming the Lance Armstrong Bikeway the Lying Cheat Bikeway.
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Old 19th January 2013, 09:51 AM   #923
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Originally Posted by Peephole View Post
People keep saying it's the cleanest it's ever been. But at least in the Tour the top riders of the past years (Schlecks and Contador) have been caught. Maybe 2012 and Wiggins was the first largely clean tour, but you'd have to wait at least a couple of years to make that conclusion.

The average time of the whole tour doesn't seem to be remarkably lower.
I've not heard of any substantiated allegations against Andy, but Frank is certainly highly suspicious at best. Scarponi and several other Italian based riders have been implicated with Ferrari recently as well.
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Old 19th January 2013, 12:09 PM   #924
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Perhaps I was too subtle.

On rereading your post, I notice indeed the subtle use of the singular with respect to a certain part of male anatomy.

Dutch public radio this morning asked a psychiatrist for his opinion. The interviewer mentioned that some Dutch cyclists had called Lance a "psychopath". The psychiatrist said he was not allowed to say that, it being a medical opinion from his mouth. He added, though, that the interview reminded him of Joran van der Sloot.
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Old 19th January 2013, 01:29 PM   #925
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Officials here have been reluctant to withdraw all of Lance's honors, citing his charity work, so an anonymous citizen has chipped in to help with a can of spray paint, renaming the Lance Armstrong Bikeway the Lying Cheat Bikeway.
Really? This is the first I've heard of this! And I can't find any corroborating news stories. Care to share a link?
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Old 19th January 2013, 04:49 PM   #926
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Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
Really? This is the first I've heard of this! And I can't find any corroborating news stories. Care to share a link?
They have been running the story on KLBJ AM all day, usually at the top of the hour when they have news. Perhaps it will also be on Channel 8, although I haven't looked, on local evening news and in the Statesman tomorrow, I'm not sure where to go online to find it.

ETA: Actually it's two stories, one about the City Council being reluctant to rename the bikeway, and another about the defacement.

ETA2: Just checked the radio and they ran the story again at 6:03.

Last edited by Marcus; 19th January 2013 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 19th January 2013, 05:25 PM   #927
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Fallout around Rabobank

The Dutch newspaper NRC has disclosed, after dozens of (anonymous) interviews with Dutch cyclists, managers and soigneurs, that Rabobank started organized use of EPO right in their first season of 1996. After disastrous results in the spring classics, manager Jan Raas called his best cyclists together and they started using EPO for the 1996 Tour (Dutch article, English summary). The cyclists put 10% of their prize money in a pool from which the doping was bought.

Thomas Dekker admitted having used EPO and blood doping all through 2006 and 2007. He was caught in 2009 for doping in 2007 and suspended for two years; at the time he claimed it was a one-time affair.

Later tonight, Danny Nelissen who rode for Rabobank in 1996 and 1997, admitted on TV having structurally used EPO at the time. He also implicated the team doctor for administering it (link in Dutch). In an interview with NRC in 1999, he still said:
Quote:
I have no respect for people who write I used doping without proof. I never tested positive. There is no better proof of my innocence. No positive test, no guilt, simple as that.
Sound familiar?
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Old 19th January 2013, 05:39 PM   #928
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Austin update: There is now an online petition asking the City Council to rename the Lance Armstrong Bikeway.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/c...trong-bikeway/

Last edited by Marcus; 19th January 2013 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 20th January 2013, 03:41 AM   #929
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Originally Posted by Peephole View Post
People keep saying it's the cleanest it's ever been. But at least in the Tour the top riders of the past years (Schlecks and Contador) have been caught. Maybe 2012 and Wiggins was the first largely clean tour, but you'd have to wait at least a couple of years to make that conclusion.

The average time of the whole tour doesn't seem to be remarkably lower.
It's been 15 years that every year is the cleanest ever, until we find out that it is not. This year and the next will be no different.

Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Climbing times were definitely up in the last tour.
Climbing or total Tour times are not the most precise metric though, since the race is different every year. But it is true that overall times were slighty slower and that may be indicative that the most outrageous excesses have been curbed temporarily.
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Old 20th January 2013, 08:35 AM   #930
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Quote:
In 2005, right after publishing his soon-to-be bestseller, Lance Armstrong’s War, journalist Daniel Coyle was asked, “What’s our biggest misconception about Lance Armstrong?”

Coyle, who had spent more than a year shadowing Armstrong, gave a curious reply: “That he’s a nice guy,” he answered.
Did people really think this? He always came over as an enormous *******, at least in here in Europe.
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Old 20th January 2013, 09:19 AM   #931
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I feel really sorry for Phil Liggett the British commentator who defended Armstrong throughout and was repeatedly lied to by Armstrong himself. Liggett, who is highly respected stated Armstrong won because he was talented, competitive and a great tactition on a superb team. That sort of endorsement unwittingly helped Armstrong get away with the lie for so long.
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Old 20th January 2013, 09:30 AM   #932
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Originally Posted by Peephole View Post
Did people really think this? He always came over as an enormous *******, at least in here in Europe.
The only people who thought this were people who aren't interested in cycling and don't follow it, which is the majority of the US population. To them Lance was a celebrity who did charity work and occasionally rode his bike. Only recently have most people discovered that he was always a prick.

When Lance was winning his tours, I knew he was a prick, but he was our prick, and some slack can be cut for a champion, many of them are high strung.
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Old 20th January 2013, 11:36 AM   #933
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I feel really sorry for Phil Liggett the British commentator who defended Armstrong throughout and was repeatedly lied to by Armstrong himself. Liggett, who is highly respected stated Armstrong won because he was talented, competitive and a great tactition on a superb team. That sort of endorsement unwittingly helped Armstrong get away with the lie for so long.
He wasn't the only one in exactly that situation. Rick Reilly of ESPN shares Phil's pain.

Quote:
Armstrong always told me he was clean.

On the record. Off the record. Every kind of record. In Colorado. In Texas. In France. On team buses. In cars. On cell phones.

I'd sit there with him, in some Tour de France hotel room while he was getting his daily postrace massage. And we'd talk through the hole in the table about how he stared down this guy or that guy, how he'd fooled Jan Ullrich on the torturous Alpe d'Huez into thinking he was gassed and then suddenly sprinted away to win. How he ordered chase packs from the center of the peloton and reeled in all the pretenders.

And then I'd bring up whatever latest charge was levied against him. "There's this former teammate who says he heard you tell doctors you doped." "There's this former assistant back in Austin who says you cheated." "There's this assistant they say they caught disposing of your drug paraphernalia."

And every time -- every single time -- he'd push himself up on his elbows and his face would be red and he'd stare at me like I'd just shot his dog and give me some very well-delivered explanation involving a few dozen F words, a painting of the accuser as a wronged employee seeking revenge, and how lawsuits were forthcoming.
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Old 20th January 2013, 11:48 AM   #934
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Originally Posted by Peephole View Post
Did people really think this? He always came over as an enormous *******, at least in here in Europe.
There are a few people in the US who saw that many years ago:

Originally Posted by Paul Kimmage in today's Observer
In the autumn of 1993, Greg LeMond and his wife, Kathy, were sitting at home in the suburbs of Minneapolis, when they received a visit from Linda Mooneyham, the three-times Tour de France winner has recalled. Her 21-year-old son, Lance Armstrong, had just become the world champion and she had travelled from her home in Texas for advice.
"What does he do now?" she asked. "What does he do with his money?"
"Well, let him find an agent – a good one with an attorney," LeMond replied. "And one word of advice – just be his mom."
They sat on the porch for a while and then moved inside to the kitchen. Linda had something else on her mind: "How do I make him less of an *******. He doesn't care about anyone."
"Well," LeMond replied. "I can't help you there."
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Old 20th January 2013, 05:23 PM   #935
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To do well in this sport it's not such a bad idea to be shallow and obsessive and selfish, and there was a point where some of us figured that bad personality might be the reason why Lance could win without drugs. Now he's just a regular old ******* instead of a slightly admirable one.
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Old 20th January 2013, 05:53 PM   #936
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Originally Posted by Peephole View Post
Did people really think this? He always came over as an enormous *******, at least in here in Europe.
Uh... he said misconception. "That he's a nice guy."
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Old 20th January 2013, 06:05 PM   #937
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The journalist said that people thinking he was a nice guy was the biggest misconception that people had.

Therefore, he's saying a lot of people believed him a nice guy.
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Old 20th January 2013, 06:09 PM   #938
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Old 20th January 2013, 06:15 PM   #939
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Old 20th January 2013, 11:56 PM   #940
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Originally Posted by Peephole View Post
Did people really think this? He always came over as an enormous *******, at least in here in Europe.
The word "American" is apparently a naughty word in Europe.
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Old 21st January 2013, 12:54 AM   #941
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
To do well in this sport it's not such a bad idea to be shallow and obsessive and selfish, and there was a point where some of us figured that bad personality might be the reason why Lance could win without drugs. Now he's just a regular old ******* instead of a slightly admirable one.
Depends what your role in a team is. For example, I'd be surprised indeed to find out Adam Hansen, Lotto-Belisol domestique was like that, and yet last year he achieved the rare feat of finishing all three Grand Tours in one season, something only 32 people have done.
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Old 21st January 2013, 05:26 PM   #942
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I don't know how many people here are familiar with Sp!ked, but in true-to-form style they have a piece up complaining about how Lance Armstrong was considered guilty before any evidence came in and the writer explicitly asks if a pursuing journalist is happy now that his "witch hunt" has finally got his witch.

Quote:
As sporting officialdom condemned, large swathes of the media spat. Gossipy stories of Armstrong’s bullying, his lying, his alleged sociopathology were published without nuance; op-eds assassinating Armstrong’s character, inflating his wrongs to Biblical proportions, were rushed off without perspective....And then this week, that finally happened - in the interview with Oprah Winfrey. Caught and unavoidably contrite, Armstrong acted out the role of the doping sportsman. Yes, he was saying, I am everything that the Dopefinder Generals say I am: I am that witch.
http://www.spiked-online.com/site/re...preview/13272/

It's actually a review of a book that's been written about Armstrong and just published now by a journalist called David Walsh. I don't know the Sp!ked writer, Tim Black, but in an earlier article he complains that Armstrong's been put in the stocks and how the sporting administrators have now spread suspicion through the sporting world.

http://www.spiked-online.com/site/article/12980/

Strangely, Black doesn't seem to think that Armstrong bears much responsibility for it and whines that it is a shame that no one will believe his great story anymore.
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Old 21st January 2013, 05:39 PM   #943
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
They have been running the story on KLBJ AM all day, usually at the top of the hour when they have news. Perhaps it will also be on Channel 8, although I haven't looked, on local evening news and in the Statesman tomorrow, I'm not sure where to go online to find it.

ETA: Actually it's two stories, one about the City Council being reluctant to rename the bikeway, and another about the defacement.

ETA2: Just checked the radio and they ran the story again at 6:03.
Right, I'm seeing on-line reports now. Thanks for the updates.
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Old 21st January 2013, 10:17 PM   #944
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Help with the English language

At the 32:40 minute mark he's asked about the financial cost of the affair.

He speaks about 75 million dollars a day. Did I get it correctly?. Is he losing 75 million dollars a day?.

Could someone clarify to me the context of this, I don't get exactly what he's talking about.

Thanks.

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Old 21st January 2013, 10:58 PM   #945
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Originally Posted by Patricio Elicer View Post
At the 32:40 minute mark he's asked about the financial cost of the affair.

He speaks about 75 million dollars a day. Did I get it correctly?. Is he losing 75 million dollars a day?.

Could someone clarify to me the context of this, I don't get exactly what he's talking about.

Thanks.

He was saying he had a day (the day the report of his doping came out) where he lost $75 million dollars in future endorsements.

She was asking how much he had really, and he was responding with something about what he could have had in the future if not exposed.

He was talking about future earnings.

It's still unclear how well he's doing with what he made on endorsements vs. lawsuits. Most think he's still well ahead.
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Old 21st January 2013, 11:05 PM   #946
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Old 21st January 2013, 11:18 PM   #947
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Originally Posted by appalling View Post
He was saying he had a day (the day the report of his doping came out) where he lost $75 million dollars in future endorsements.

She was asking how much he had really, and he was responding with something about what he could have had in the future if not exposed.

He was talking about future earnings.

It's still unclear how well he's doing with what he made on endorsements vs. lawsuits. Most think he's still well ahead.

OK, thanks!. That was a bit confusing of him not responding what he's been actually asked.
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Old 21st January 2013, 11:24 PM   #948
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Oh it was a telling point, to be sure.

If he accepts that he was defrauding people (at least saying so publicly), then at that point he is seeking a little sympathy, from Oprah, that he wasn't able to get a little more (on top of what he already got) for his crime.

"Look at what I lost, by being exposed. My future earnings from all my victories."
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Old 22nd January 2013, 12:36 AM   #949
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Originally Posted by appalling View Post
Oh it was a telling point, to be sure.

If he accepts that he was defrauding people (at least saying so publicly), then at that point he is seeking a little sympathy, from Oprah, that he wasn't able to get a little more (on top of what he already got) for his crime.

"Look at what I lost, by being exposed. My future earnings from all my victories."

Exactly. That was a particularly sickening part of the interview. He was expecting to eventually receive $75 million, based on his cheating and lies, and on that day he learned he wouldn't be getting that, because his lies were exposed. And he's actually trying to make people feel sorry for him?
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Old 22nd January 2013, 01:44 AM   #950
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I don't know how many people here are familiar with Sp!ked, but in true-to-form style they have a piece up complaining about how Lance Armstrong was considered guilty before any evidence came in and the writer explicitly asks if a pursuing journalist is happy now that his "witch hunt" has finally got his witch.

http://www.spiked-online.com/site/re...preview/13272/

It's actually a review of a book that's been written about Armstrong and just published now by a journalist called David Walsh.
David Walsh is not just a journalist. He is one of the main critics of Armstrong. In 2004, he wrote L.A. Confidential - a book that only has been published in French, not in English because of legal threats. In 2005, Armstrong started a libel suit against David Walsh and the Sunday Times for an article he wrote.
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Old 22nd January 2013, 03:11 AM   #951
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
David Walsh is not just a journalist. He is one of the main critics of Armstrong. In 2004, he wrote L.A. Confidential - a book that only has been published in French, not in English because of legal threats. In 2005, Armstrong started a libel suit against David Walsh and the Sunday Times for an article he wrote.
What I find interesting/weird about the Sp!ked article is that the author, Tim Black, seems to be bemoaning the fact that David Walsh was correct for the wrong reasons almost as if Black was saying "I was right to be wrong and you were wrong to be right!"
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Old 22nd January 2013, 07:40 AM   #952
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I don't know how many people here are familiar with Sp!ked, but in true-to-form style they have a piece up complaining about how Lance Armstrong was considered guilty before any evidence came in and the writer explicitly asks if a pursuing journalist is happy now that his "witch hunt" has finally got his witch.



http://www.spiked-online.com/site/re...preview/13272/

It's actually a review of a book that's been written about Armstrong and just published now by a journalist called David Walsh. I don't know the Sp!ked writer, Tim Black, but in an earlier article he complains that Armstrong's been put in the stocks and how the sporting administrators have now spread suspicion through the sporting world.

http://www.spiked-online.com/site/article/12980/

Strangely, Black doesn't seem to think that Armstrong bears much responsibility for it and whines that it is a shame that no one will believe his great story anymore.
What a load of rubbish. The writer appears to be even further up Lances arse than Lance is.
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Old 22nd January 2013, 11:27 AM   #953
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Just heard this on the radio, but the radio folks left out the prank part:

Quote:
A sign telling users of an Australian library that books written by the disgraced cyclist Lance Armstrong would be moved to the fiction section has been revealed as a joke.
Australian library's Lance Armstrong 'fiction' notice revealed as a hoax
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Old 22nd January 2013, 11:53 AM   #954
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
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Old 22nd January 2013, 10:37 PM   #955
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Originally Posted by Denver View Post
Just heard this on the radio, but the radio folks left out the prank part:



Australian library's Lance Armstrong 'fiction' notice revealed as a hoax
They could be moved to the 800s as literature though.
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Old 23rd January 2013, 09:14 PM   #956
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Who are they going to give the 7 titles to? Other dopers?

Oh well. At least the other dopers haven't lied as much. Well, not until they have to explain why they came in second behind Armstrong so many times.
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Old 23rd January 2013, 09:32 PM   #957
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Who are they going to give the 7 titles to? Other dopers?

Oh well. At least the other dopers haven't lied as much. Well, not until they have to explain why they came in second behind Armstrong so many times.
Evidence?
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Old 23rd January 2013, 10:36 PM   #958
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Who are they going to give the 7 titles to? Other dopers?

Oh well. At least the other dopers haven't lied as much. Well, not until they have to explain why they came in second behind Armstrong so many times.
The titles are vacant and will remain so.
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Old 23rd January 2013, 11:44 PM   #959
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Is it possible that this thread has moved farther into the land of Armstrong bashing than is justified by what is knowable about the situation?

There was a huge legal incentive for Armstrong to not admit to the doping. Yes, the various people pursuing Armstrong probably had enough evidence available to win a decision based on a preponderance of evidence but it was not going to be easy evidence to get at and defend. A lot of the people that might have testified against Armstrong had large incentives to rat Armstrong out and no matter what, their testimony would have been subject to attack. The physical evidence against Armstrong, while compelling, might not have been admissible against him. And even if one could prove a specific incident, extrapolating that to all seven Tour de Frances that Armstrong won would have been difficult. It is likely that if Armstrong had just kept his mouth shut from here on about this stuff that he would have been in a strong enough position legally to negotiate favorable terms in any kind of settlements, but now his legal position is weak enough that one might even imagine that the people going after him will be looking for penalties attached to any kind of settlements.

Armstrong might have come clean at this juncture because of what he said, he didn't want to continue to lie to his son, and that seems like a noble reason.

At this juncture Armstrong denies that he used drugs in his third place finish in his tour come back effort. Is it possible that he isn't lying about this?
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Old 24th January 2013, 12:09 AM   #960
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Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
Is it possible that this thread has moved farther into the land of Armstrong bashing than is justified by what is knowable about the situation?

There was a huge legal incentive for Armstrong to not admit to the doping. Yes, the various people pursuing Armstrong probably had enough evidence available to win a decision based on a preponderance of evidence but it was not going to be easy evidence to get at and defend. A lot of the people that might have testified against Armstrong had large incentives to rat Armstrong out and no matter what, their testimony would have been subject to attack. The physical evidence against Armstrong, while compelling, might not have been admissible against him. And even if one could prove a specific incident, extrapolating that to all seven Tour de Frances that Armstrong won would have been difficult. It is likely that if Armstrong had just kept his mouth shut from here on about this stuff that he would have been in a strong enough position legally to negotiate favorable terms in any kind of settlements, but now his legal position is weak enough that one might even imagine that the people going after him will be looking for penalties attached to any kind of settlements.

Armstrong might have come clean at this juncture because of what he said, he didn't want to continue to lie to his son, and that seems like a noble reason.

At this juncture Armstrong denies that he used drugs in his third place finish in his tour come back effort. Is it possible that he isn't lying about this?
Not, it is not possible (well, unless you start accusing him of murdering babies I suppose), and no, it is not possible. There is no reason to trust a single word that comes out of his mouth and ample reason not to.
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