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Old 24th August 2012, 12:05 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
One he said she said is one thing.

A few of them with chemical evidence is another.
Bring it?
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Old 24th August 2012, 12:06 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
All of them? It's they said, he said.
Indeed. Some real evidence and not hearsay is what I would require.
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Old 24th August 2012, 12:09 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Indeed. Some real evidence and not hearsay is what I would require.
They're all lying? And the USADA is out to get him? And L'Equipe?

Not buying it.
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Old 24th August 2012, 12:13 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
They're all lying? And the USADA is out to get him? And L'Equipe?

Not buying it.
How much evidence did the Feds see that wasnt deemed sufficient? Tainted witness. Offers of who knows what?

My brother once told my mother I stole some mmey from her. Guess what?

The USADA is all about McCarthyism.
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Old 24th August 2012, 12:15 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
How much evidence did the Feds see that wasnt deemed sufficient? Tainted witness. Offers of who knows what?

My brother once told my mother I stole some mmey from her. Guess what?

The USADA is all about McCarthyism.
There were to be at least ten witnesses if this went to arbitration, which is probably why Armstrong quit.

Not buying your CT.
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Old 24th August 2012, 12:47 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
How much evidence did the Feds see that wasnt deemed sufficient? Tainted witness. Offers of who knows what?

My brother once told my mother I stole some mmey from her. Guess what?

The USADA is all about McCarthyism.
Keep in mind the different standards of evidence. Arbitration has a much lower standard than a criminal case. They can accept anything they decide to accept in arbitration, at the will of the officials, and Lance would have agreed to that arbitration process at some point.

You could easily win a criminal case and lose in arbitration on the exact same evidence.

I still think Lance should release the report when the USADA provides it to him and UCI.
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Old 24th August 2012, 12:53 PM   #127
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I have been watching the Tour De France for the past 20 years. It has until recently always had issues with drug use and cheating. I came to accept that it was a race to find the best cyclist, based on the person, bike, team and use of drugs. Lance Armstrong did not fail any tests at the time. That was at a time when cyclist after cyclist was failing and the culture of doping permeated the sport.

As has been pointed out those who came second are also likely or proven blood dopers. That may well be true for third, fourth and so on. Why not just blank out the results for the whole of the Tour De France for those seven years? And a good few years either side of that.

I think he should keep his titles as he was the best cyclist when faced with lots of competition from many other cyclists including from those who were definitely cheating.
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Old 24th August 2012, 01:04 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Who'd be stupid enough to believe anything Floyd "I denied doping for years and duped people out of millions to fund my case, then eventually admitted that I was a cheat and tried to blame everyone else" Landis said?
The problem is, it's not just Floyd. If it was, it would be much easier to dismiss the whole thing.
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Old 24th August 2012, 01:35 PM   #129
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How do they even figure out who to give the titles to? I'm of the belief that with that many people cheating (during that time) you would have to be almost superhuman to crack the top 20.... I don't know if there were any of at least the top 10 they haven't caught dopping all ready.
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Old 24th August 2012, 01:37 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by mikedenk View Post
Actual hard evidence has been hinted at, but not confirmed AFAIK. The bulk of the USADA's case seems to rely on circumstantial evidence - Armstrong complained that the USADA offered leniency to numerous other riders in exchange for testimony.

Whoever ends up with the titles is almost certainly also a blood doper/PED user, so what's the point? I'd rather see my tax $ go towards education and prevention.
Ya, me too!

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The U.S. Postal Service gave tens of millions in sponsorship dollars to Armstrong’s teams, and the government may yet try to claw that taxpayer money back.
Our failing USPS gave how much? Oh man...
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Old 24th August 2012, 01:41 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I have been watching the Tour De France for the past 20 years. It has until recently always had issues with drug use and cheating. I came to accept that it was a race to find the best cyclist, based on the person, bike, team and use of drugs. Lance Armstrong did not fail any tests at the time. That was at a time when cyclist after cyclist was failing and the culture of doping permeated the sport.

As has been pointed out those who came second are also likely or proven blood dopers. That may well be true for third, fourth and so on. Why not just blank out the results for the whole of the Tour De France for those seven years? And a good few years either side of that.

I think he should keep his titles as he was the best cyclist when faced with lots of competition from many other cyclists including from those who were definitely cheating.
So then you have to reinstate all the titles from all the other athletes who were stripped of theirs. Why is it that Armstrong should get a special pass on wrongdoing?
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Old 24th August 2012, 01:42 PM   #132
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So those who couldn't beat the man on the track do so through innuendo and he said she said.
The drug tests were all negative
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Old 24th August 2012, 01:47 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
How much evidence did the Feds see that wasnt deemed sufficient? Tainted witness. Offers of who knows what?
The USADA got a lot of new information from the federal investigation. Remember, just because something isn't illegal doesn't mean it isn't against the rules in the Tour. Armstrong isn't being charged with a crime, he is being stripped of the titles he won through cheating.
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Old 24th August 2012, 01:50 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by George152 View Post
So those who couldn't beat the man on the track do so through innuendo and he said she said.
The drug tests were all negative
No, the drug tests were not all negative. Remember too, according to the rules, blood samples can be held and retested at a later date. They have the results of those later date tests now.
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Old 24th August 2012, 02:35 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
He said, she said. Not credible.
That depends on the number of his teammates. If it is just one or two, I agree. If it gets into the 7 or 8,then it has to be taken seriously.
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Old 24th August 2012, 02:36 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by George152 View Post
So those who couldn't beat the man on the track do so through innuendo and he said she said.
The drug tests were all negative
Uh, there are well developed techniques of being able to beat the drug tests. I give you Barry Bonds in Evidence.............
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Old 24th August 2012, 02:38 PM   #137
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I have a sick feeling this is going to play out like the Joe Paterno scandal. A lot of his admirers will,intially,deny guilt,scream "Witch Hunt" and "He Was Framed",but as the evidence mounts,there will be a bunch of disillusioned people.
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Old 24th August 2012, 02:40 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
The USADA got a lot of new information from the federal investigation. Remember, just because something isn't illegal doesn't mean it isn't against the rules in the Tour. Armstrong isn't being charged with a crime, he is being stripped of the titles he won through cheating.
What concerns me is the automatic condeming of all eye witness testimony as "'He Said/She Said". There is some eyewitness testimony that is not very reliable, but other testimony that is pretty damning.
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Old 24th August 2012, 02:56 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
There were to be at least ten witnesses if this went to arbitration, which is probably why Armstrong quit.

Not buying your CT.
Sorry Mr Skeptic!
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Old 24th August 2012, 03:19 PM   #140
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Why should the titles be redistributed if Armstrong is stripped of them? Just declare the tours as having no winner. There are a whole heap of reasons why the second place getter may have not come second if Armstrong wasn't there.
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Old 24th August 2012, 03:21 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
There were to be at least ten witnesses if this went to arbitration, which is probably why Armstrong quit.

Not buying your CT.
So if the police got ten people to point the finger at you for murder by telling that if they didn't then it'd be them in the spotlight, or by reducing charges against them, then you really would be guilty?
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Old 24th August 2012, 03:26 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I have a sick feeling this is going to play out like the Joe Paterno scandal. A lot of his admirers will,intially,deny guilt,scream "Witch Hunt" and "He Was Framed",but as the evidence mounts,there will be a bunch of disillusioned people.
The evidence has already mounted.... it's been around for years.
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Old 24th August 2012, 03:29 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What concerns me is the automatic condeming of all eye witness testimony as "'He Said/She Said". There is some eyewitness testimony that is not very reliable, but other testimony that is pretty damning.
More concerning, from a skeptic perspective, is the automatic rejection of evidence, and witnesses, without knowing what it shows, or they say.

Armstrong has the money to fight the charges and has done so up until now. That's the reason this all took so long. How long did the trial take? I don't know but the judge just dismissed it this week and Armstrong didn't waste any time in announcing he wouldn't be fighting the charges anymore.

He knew what the result would be and he knows what evidence they have against him. If it really isn't any good, then it would make sense to fight the charges. Obviously, he knows the evidence is good.
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Old 24th August 2012, 03:29 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
So if the police got ten people to point the finger at you for murder by telling that if they didn't then it'd be them in the spotlight, or by reducing charges against them, then you really would be guilty?
If the police managed to find ten people who know me and who would stand up in court and say they saw me shoot someone, well, let's just say I wouldn't hold out much hope of being acquitted.
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Old 24th August 2012, 03:31 PM   #145
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Here's a story from last month about one of the people who was probably going to testify against Armstrong:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/18/sp...pagewanted=all
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Old 24th August 2012, 03:32 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
So if the police got ten people to point the finger at you for murder by telling that if they didn't then it'd be them in the spotlight, or by reducing charges against them, then you really would be guilty?
If I were guilty, then yes
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Old 24th August 2012, 03:36 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I have a sick feeling this is going to play out like the Joe Paterno scandal. A lot of his admirers will,intially,deny guilt,scream "Witch Hunt" and "He Was Framed",but as the evidence mounts,there will be a bunch of disillusioned people.
I wouldn't hold my breath on that. For that reason, like the Paterno threads, I'm gonna exit stage left before it get's really testy around here.

Better for my BP.
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Old 24th August 2012, 03:38 PM   #148
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Old 24th August 2012, 03:59 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
dopestrong
Nike has pledged to support Armstrong 100% and have issued a new corporate logo:



Just Do It!
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Old 24th August 2012, 04:00 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Here's a story from last month about one of the people who was probably going to testify against Armstrong:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/18/sp...pagewanted=all
That's Big George, Lance's long time lieutenant and one of the most respected riders. With this years ride, he has participated in more TDF's than any other person.
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Old 24th August 2012, 04:05 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
Glass. How it was done until the early 70s.
Now that you mention it I do remember seeing those glass IV bottles in old movies. Just for fun I searched and found that they are easily available, it turns out that they're still used for certain meds.
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Old 24th August 2012, 04:10 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Indeed. Some real evidence and not hearsay is what I would require.
Eyewitness testimony is not hearsay. If you testified that someone told you that they say lance doping, that would be hearsay.
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Old 24th August 2012, 04:24 PM   #153
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I'm surprised to see so many Euros and Aussies sticking up for an American that straight-up owned the best your countries could produce for God knows how long.

Seems like you lot should be screaming for his (doped-up) blood, as touchy as you are about getting beat by USAins at things.

Also, his real last name is Gunderson.
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Old 24th August 2012, 04:38 PM   #154
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How down the list of finishers will they have to go to find the first verifiable non-doping rider for any of those years?
Or will it be the 70 guys with the "same time" in the peloton that get the medals, when everyone ahead of the pack has been disqualified?
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Old 24th August 2012, 04:44 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Howie Felterbush View Post
I'm surprised to see so many Euros and Aussies sticking up for an American that straight-up owned the best your countries could produce for God knows how long.

Seems like you lot should be screaming for his (doped-up) blood, as touchy as you are about getting beat by USAins at things.

Also, his real last name is Gunderson.
He didn't beat any of ours, they were all either domestiques or going for the Green Jersey at the time.
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Old 24th August 2012, 05:05 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
He didn't beat any of ours, they were all either domestiques or going for the Green Jersey at the time.
No Australians in any of the TdF's Gunderson won?

Really? I mean, if you're in the race, and you're from Australia, and Lance Gunderson wins, he beat you, I don't care what color your jersey is. You may be racing for the points, but what everyone wants is the overall win. That's why it's called the overall.

I admit, I don't know or care to know anything about bicycling. Far as I'm concerned, it became irrelevant the minute the motorcycle was invented.
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Old 24th August 2012, 05:14 PM   #157
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And yet, here you are.
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Old 24th August 2012, 05:22 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
And yet, here you are.
I'm more interested in the apparent vendetta against Gunderson.

Seems to me like he's the kind of cat you'd want to keep around, not hound into worse-than-obscurity. The doping agency either has something solid or they just have a real hard-on for Lance.

More to the point, as Al Pacino said in Glengarry Glen Ross, "What do you ******* care?"
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Old 24th August 2012, 06:31 PM   #159
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Calling Lance Armstrong "Gunderson" is like calling Natalie Portman "Herschlag". What's the point? People change their names for a reason. Why not respect it?
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Old 24th August 2012, 06:33 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
Calling Lance Armstrong "Gunderson" is like calling Natalie Portman "Herschlag". What's the point? People change their names for a reason. Why not respect it?
Because "Gunderson" is hilarious and "Armstrong" isn't.

Makes me think of Fargo.
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"Don't be too offended by the likes of him - I hear he doesn't even own ascots." -JoeyDonuts
"I must be more tired than I thought. Howie, you are starting to make sense." -MG1962
"You're a mean old evil cynic. And mean." Halfcentaur
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