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Old 27th August 2012, 12:19 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by BabyLion View Post
Glucosamine can be taken after a work out to cut your muscle rehab time in half. So where is the line between supplements and "performance enhancing drugs"?
First, do you have a citation for the claim regarding glucosamine? All the ones I find say glucosamine is ineffective but I can't seem to find one on muscle recovery times.

To your question: I think the issue is two fold. First, sporting events are meant to determine who is the best athlete, not who has access to the best drugs. It comes down to the human desire for fair play as well.

Second, it has to do with health issues. Soviet and East German athletes were subject to national programs of steroid use. The life expectancy for their Olympic caliber athletes was 41 years. The life expectancy of an NFL player is 52.

These are athletes, supposedly the healthiest members of society. It's an alarming issue. Look at the steroid use and resulting deaths in professional wrestling.
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Old 27th August 2012, 06:00 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Well, that doesn't look good.
Who came third?
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Old 27th August 2012, 06:04 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Drugs aren't magic but they do give you a 10-15% boost in performance.

The issue is that clean athletes get screwed. They get beat by cheaters. An athlete using PED no more wins a race than the athlete who trips all the competitors in the 1500 meters and raises his hand as he crosses the finish line.

Two choices:

1) Change the rules to make drugs a part of the sport.

2) Go after the cheaters mercilessly.

It looks like the USADA is taking the second option.
The problem is taking so long to do so. It gives those who don't cheat and watch those who do cheat win, want to win as well by cheating.
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Old 27th August 2012, 09:29 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
The problem is taking so long to do so. It gives those who don't cheat and watch those who do cheat win, want to win as well by cheating.
I agree but I think Armstrong's tactic was to fight this for as long as possible hoping it would go away or that people would start sympathizing with him as the "victim" of a witch hunt.

I think it worked pretty well for him. The media even reported that the day after he was banned there were several hundred contributions to his foundation. He claimed a 25X increase. From $3200.00 to $78,000.00.
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Old 27th August 2012, 09:30 AM   #245
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Quote:
"Nobody needs to cry for me," Armstrong told reporters. "I'm going to be great."
Is it just me or did Armstrong take a page from Charlie Sheen's book, because apparently he's winning too?
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Old 27th August 2012, 10:38 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by BabyLion View Post
Why are some supplements legal while others aren't. I practice Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, there are some supplements that i can go to GNC and buy that make me feel like a machine. I can go twice as long without getting tired ect. Glucosamine can be taken after a work out to cut your muscle rehab time in half. So where is the line between supplements and "performance enhancing drugs"?
Supplements are typically nutritional. Some are constituents of macromolecules and needed to replace what is lost during exercise (like carbohydrates for glycogen recovery) or to promote protein synthesis during the adaptation phase (most amino-acid supplements). Other are related to biochemical intermediates, such as creatine, which serves as a temporary ATP store the is depleted during intense exercise.

There are performance enhancing drugs that you can buy at GNC that might not be legal if used prior to competition. A common one used to be ephedrine - a stimulant much like caffeine. Caffeine itself is consider a performance-enhancing drug, but is still allowed in most cases. Synephrine is similar, and seems to be growing in popularity - look for "bitter orange"

Are you sure it's glucosamine that cut's your muscle rehab time? Typically, that's response is most commonly associated with other amino-acids, primarily BCAAs. Maybe your thinking about glutamine?

But the bigger problem is the hormones - molecules that in very small doses trigger significant changes in cellular responses. These would be most commonly anabolic steroids, growth hormone and EPO.
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Old 27th August 2012, 10:39 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Who came third?
In 1999 6 of the top ten were suspended at some point during their career, including all of 2-6. Lance makes 7. It's not much better for other years.
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Old 27th August 2012, 11:05 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by dakotajudo View Post
Are you sure it's glucosamine that cut's your muscle rehab time? Typically, that's response is most commonly associated with other amino-acids, primarily BCAAs. Maybe your thinking about glutamine?
You are right, glucosmine is for joints i think.
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Old 27th August 2012, 11:11 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by BabyLion View Post
You are right, glucosmine is for joints i think.
IIRC, only horse knees. No benefit for humans ever shown.

Probably because horses are vegetarians, so don't get enough insects like crabs in their diet. Or cock's combs either. (I forget, "Glucosamine and Condroitin", one is form crab shells, the other chicken scrap? )
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Old 27th August 2012, 11:17 AM   #250
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Interesting, the only thing I currently take is fish oil. Its supposed to be good for the heart, joints ect. Then again i have not done any research on it. Just going off what others have told me.
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Old 27th August 2012, 12:09 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by BabyLion View Post
Interesting, the only thing I currently take is fish oil. Its supposed to be good for the heart, joints ect. Then again i have not done any research on it. Just going off what others have told me.
You shouldn't take any supplements except maybe whey protein. Everything else you should get from the food you eat.
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Old 27th August 2012, 12:20 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
You shouldn't take any supplements except maybe whey protein. Everything else you should get from the food you eat.
Very true statement. One of those "easier said than done" things though.
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Old 27th August 2012, 01:45 PM   #253
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An internet diagnosis is worth what you paid.
See your licensed physician for answers for what -you- may or may not need.
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Old 27th August 2012, 03:36 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post


The next time you are dying of an infection, tell me antibiotics don't have powers beyond what you, as a mortal man/woman, have.

The drugs do things to the body that the cyclist can't do themselves, that's why they are called "Performance Enhancing Drugs."


So we know they enhance performance because they're called "Performance Enhancing Drugs"?
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Old 27th August 2012, 03:38 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Armstrong isn't accused of taking steroids or antibiotics so this is a straw man argument.
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Old 27th August 2012, 04:26 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
So we know they enhance performance because they're called "Performance Enhancing Drugs"?
You have it backwards, which isn't surprising. They are called PEDs because they enhance performance.
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Old 27th August 2012, 04:33 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Armstrong isn't accused of taking steroids or antibiotics so this is a straw man argument.
First: Armstrong is accused of taking EPO. From Wiki:

Quote:
ESAs have a history of use as blood doping agents in endurance sports such as horseracing, boxing,[15] cycling, rowing, distance running, race walking, cross country skiing, biathlon, and triathlons. The overall oxygen delivery system (blood oxygen levels, as well as heart stroke volume, vascularization, and lung function) is one of the major limiting factors to muscles' ability to perform endurance exercise. Therefore, the primary reason athletes may use ESAs is to improve oxygen delivery to muscles, which directly improves their endurance capacity. With the advent of recombinant erythropoietin in the 1990s, the practice of autologous and homologous blood transfusion has been partially replaced by injecting erythropoietin such that the body naturally produces its own red cells. ESAs increase hematocrit (% of blood volume that is red cell mass) and total red cell mass in the body, providing an unfair advantage in sports where such practice is banned. In addition to ethical considerations in sports, providing an increased red cell mass beyond the natural levels reduces blood flow due to increased viscosity, and increases the likelihood of thrombosis and stroke. Due to dangers associated with using ESAs, their use should be limited to the clinic where anemic patients are boosted back to normal hemoglobin levels (as opposed to going above the normal levels for performance advantage, leading to an increased risk of death)
Second, you commit a strawman of your own. No one has to prove PED's enhance performance so that Armstrong's ban is justified. All one needs do is show he violated the rules. According to the rules, competitors are not allowed to use PEDs. Armstrong used them so he gets banned and loses his championships. End of story.

Too bad, so sad, Lance.
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Old 27th August 2012, 04:38 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
An internet diagnosis is worth what you paid.
See your licensed physician for answers for what -you- may or may not need.
I think you do not know the meaning of the word "diagnosis."

The advice to get your nutrients from food, and not from supplements, is the advice of doctors trained in nutrition.
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Old 27th August 2012, 04:42 PM   #259
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Seems like Ibuprofen and Tylenol could be considered performance enhancing drugs as they enable you to return to a work out sooner by relieving the pain of aching muscles.

Another trend I heard about was personal hyperbaric chambers. This is for the "live high, train low" philosophy and increases red blood cell count.

Here's an article on it:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.08/nike_pr.html
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Old 27th August 2012, 05:28 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
This tired old rubbish again?
If you're going to be rude, you could at least provide a refutation (or a link to a post which had it that I may have missed) alongside your faux-outrage.

Honestly though, it was just an idea, personally I couldn't care less for professional sports.
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Old 27th August 2012, 07:11 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Seems like Ibuprofen and Tylenol could be considered performance enhancing drugs as they enable you to return to a work out sooner by relieving the pain of aching muscles.

Another trend I heard about was personal hyperbaric chambers. This is for the "live high, train low" philosophy and increases red blood cell count.

Here's an article on it:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.08/nike_pr.html
As far as I know, hyperbaric chambers are permitted, and there was never any secret about Lance and others using them.

I suppose painkillers of any sort could be considered performance enhancing, but then so could binding up a sprain or putting on a bandaid or who knows what else. Somewhere there has to be a line drawn, and in any sport the lines are drawn, the rules spelled out, and you either follow them or get disqualified, no matter how fair they seem to you.
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Old 27th August 2012, 07:17 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
IIRC, only horse knees. No benefit for humans ever shown.

Probably because horses are vegetarians, so don't get enough insects like crabs in their diet. Or cock's combs either. (I forget, "Glucosamine and Condroitin", one is form crab shells, the other chicken scrap? )
Works for cats too.
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Old 28th August 2012, 04:07 PM   #263
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So, to summarize the possibilities:

Either, Armstrong used EPO and shouldn't have
If so then, either everyone does it
Or, only a few people do it
Or, Armstrong is innocent and the test is not as reliable as people believe.


Unless there is evidence the test is reliable on urine specimens collected after heavy exercise and after years of storage, I cannot be confident in the test results. Sometimes we are biased by the same science we should be remembering the fallibility of.
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Old 28th August 2012, 05:45 PM   #264
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I know just enough about this topic to be dangerous

IIRC the method of analysis includes a type of electrphoresis known as isoelectric focusing (IEF). If the sample degraded over time in such a way as to change its electrical charge charge, it would be expected to have a different mobility in the IEF experiment. There are a number of ways I could envision this happening. For example, asparagine residues in a protein degrade. If absolutely no degradation occurred over time, then this objection would be null. Don't take my comment too seriously; it is just a bit of hypothesizing after a long day at work. Has anyone checked whether the test remains valid for old samples?
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Old 28th August 2012, 10:11 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by halides1 View Post
...Has anyone checked whether the test remains valid for old samples?
I doubt it. My experience with marketing of medical innovations, be they drugs or tests, is the initial research is limited in samples size and length of time. After a drug or a test comes to market, more data is collected expanding what we know about the drug or test.

Initial tests of drugs, for example, are done on 100s to 1000s of subjects. Side effects that are on the order of 1/100,000 or more doses don't come to light until after a drug comes to market. That's OK, it's just the limitations of reality, prescribers take this into account.

Same with lab tests. I find it difficult to believe that researchers involved in testing the reagents for this EPO test had the time or resources to study the test using stored urine. And the study I linked too showed heavy exercise could cause false positives in the test.

I have yet to see that these issues have been resolved. If they have, great, I'll change my opinion. And I admit to not having any significant amount of knowledge about the sport or Armstrong or the other evidence regarding his doping. But from a strictly medical scientific analysis of the test itself, I urge caution in the weight people are giving the results of this test.
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Old 28th August 2012, 11:40 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by halides1 View Post
IIRC the method of analysis includes a type of electrphoresis known as isoelectric focusing (IEF). If the sample degraded over time in such a way as to change its electrical charge charge, it would be expected to have a different mobility in the IEF experiment. There are a number of ways I could envision this happening. For example, asparagine residues in a protein degrade. If absolutely no degradation occurred over time, then this objection would be null. Don't take my comment too seriously; it is just a bit of hypothesizing after a long day at work. Has anyone checked whether the test remains valid for old samples?
One especially damning aspect of the study was that not only did the samples test positive, but that the pattern of elevated EPO matched the days of doping that you would expect to see in relation to the severity of the race stages. i.e. what a crooked doctor or knowledgable self-administrator would have chosen.

That the samples might have been systematically faulty in this way doesn't seem plausible.
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Old 29th August 2012, 12:45 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I doubt it. My experience with marketing of medical innovations, be they drugs or tests, is the initial research is limited in samples size and length of time. After a drug or a test comes to market, more data is collected expanding what we know about the drug or test.

Initial tests of drugs, for example, are done on 100s to 1000s of subjects. Side effects that are on the order of 1/100,000 or more doses don't come to light until after a drug comes to market. That's OK, it's just the limitations of reality, prescribers take this into account.

Same with lab tests. I find it difficult to believe that researchers involved in testing the reagents for this EPO test had the time or resources to study the test using stored urine. And the study I linked too showed heavy exercise could cause false positives in the test.

I have yet to see that these issues have been resolved. If they have, great, I'll change my opinion. And I admit to not having any significant amount of knowledge about the sport or Armstrong or the other evidence regarding his doping. But from a strictly medical scientific analysis of the test itself, I urge caution in the weight people are giving the results of this test.
There have been significant changes in anti-doping practice since Armstrongs run, the biggest probably being the improvements of the biological passport.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport

Now, I know no sport is 100% clean, but I'm reasonably confidant this and other measures have reduced doping by at least 75% from 1998 levels.
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Old 29th August 2012, 02:41 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
First: Armstrong is accused of taking EPO. From Wiki:



Second, you commit a strawman of your own. No one has to prove PED's enhance performance so that Armstrong's ban is justified. All one needs do is show he violated the rules. According to the rules, competitors are not allowed to use PEDs. Armstrong used them so he gets banned and loses his championships. End of story.

Too bad, so sad, Lance.
Now all you have to do is prove that he broke the rules that were in place at the time he competed and you're home free.

You're argument seems to be "no one could have won without doping, Lance won so he was doping".
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Old 29th August 2012, 06:23 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Now all you have to do is prove that he broke the rules that were in place at the time he competed and you're home free.

You're argument seems to be "no one could have won without doping, Lance won so he was doping".
That would be redundant as the USADA already did with the help of UCI, a French journalist and federal investigators.

So, we agree, Lance is guilty.
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Old 29th August 2012, 06:35 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Now all you have to do is prove that he broke the rules that were in place at the time he competed and you're home free.

You're argument seems to be "no one could have won without doping, Lance won so he was doping".
.
As everyone he competed with was doping, and he beat them all.... That is the reasonable conclusion.
Otherwise, all those dopers were just worsening their own physical conditioning by doping... but still finished ahead of non-dopers.
Doesn't compute.
Lance beat all those guys using standard doping techniques against competitors who were using standard doping techniques.
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Old 29th August 2012, 07:21 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
.
As everyone he competed with was doping, and he beat them all.... That is the reasonable conclusion.
Otherwise, all those dopers were just worsening their own physical conditioning by doping... but still finished ahead of non-dopers.
Doesn't compute.
Lance beat all those guys using standard doping techniques against competitors who were using standard doping techniques.
If everyone was doping then there were no non dopers.

You're using the same circular reasoning "you had to dope to win so if you won you must be doping".

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Old 29th August 2012, 08:06 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
If everyone -at his level- was doping then there were no non dopers.

You're using the same circular reasoning "you had to dope to win so if you won you must be doping".
.
Ftfy
The non-dopers couldn't win squat.

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Old 29th August 2012, 08:07 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
.
Ftfm
How do you know that Bradly Wiggins wasn't doping?
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Old 29th August 2012, 08:10 PM   #274
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Who?
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Old 29th August 2012, 08:12 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
.
Ftfy
The non-dopers couldn't win squat.
How do you know this?

Oh, I know, those who won must be doped because you have to be doped to win.
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Old 29th August 2012, 08:19 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
Who?
The winner of this year's TdF. By asking this question you reveal that you know nothing about the subject you've been arguing about.
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Old 29th August 2012, 08:43 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
That would be redundant as the USADA already did with the help of UCI, a French journalist and federal investigators.

So, we agree, Lance is guilty.
USADA on Friday banned the 40-year-old American for life and stripped him of his record seven Tour de France titles, but the UCI has said it wanted to see USADA's full explanation for the sanctions before acting.
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Old 29th August 2012, 08:56 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
that would be redundant as the usada already did with the help of uci, a french journalist and federal investigators.

So, we agree, lance is guilty.
wrong!
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Old 29th August 2012, 08:58 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
Who?
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Old 29th August 2012, 09:03 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
If everyone was doping then there were no non dopers.
But not everybody was. 87 samples, 13 positives, that leaves 74 clean.

6 of the positives were Armstrong's so let's say that 6 is the average number of samples from each competitor. That means, from the samples, 2-3 were doping and 11-12 weren't.

I have no sympathy for cheaters. No matter what justification is used, it always comes down to the fact that they didn't win.
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