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Tags "The Poltergeist" , poltergeists , William Roll

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Old 29th October 2012, 02:46 AM   #681
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
There's about a second in there of some light fixtures swaying. Whether that's supposed to be a recording of an event or a reproduction I don't know; my German is far too rusty.
There is some at the beginning, fixtures with broken light bulbs, swaying a bit, as if the poltergeists had just broken them.

The slight swaying is somewhat suggestive but no comment is made about that in this YouTube video.
Immediately after the swaying broken light fixtures the narrator says:
Quote:
What we didn't find is an answer to the question regarding the causes.
There's no footage what-so-ever of actual poltergeist activity in this YouTube video.

E.T.A.
For clarity, it concerns the video posted as such:
Originally Posted by cj.23 View Post
Yep. The issue is not that footage can not be got - but it is rarely convincing. Here is Rosenheim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1LjrnsH144
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Last edited by Daylightstar; 29th October 2012 at 03:17 AM. Reason: E.T.A. added.
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Old 29th October 2012, 08:45 AM   #682
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I recently watched a 4-part youtube video on the 1977 Enfield, UK "case" called "Interview with a Poltergeist". In the comments section of each video, unsubstantiated accounts by the participants were held as factual evidence, photographs of a little girl jumping off her bed were accepted uncritically as proof of supernatural levitation, and audio recordings/film of the girl ventriloquizing a spooky demon voice taken as real.

These appear to be the standards of evidence required by those who already believe. Eyewitness accounts and, at best, ambiguous recordings "prove" to the credulous that invincible spirit forces are at work in the world. Welcome to the Upper Paleolithic.
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Old 29th October 2012, 08:55 AM   #683
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Funny thing is, in a roundabout way I was almost invited here because I had an interesting story ....

1. That's not "funny" even in the sense of being ironic.

2. How can someone be "almost invited"? One is either invited or one is not. There is no gradation scale of invitation.

3. If one has an "interesting story" one tells it, and lets the audience decide whether it's interesting. One does not declare one's own story interesting, decline to tell it, and then vanish in a huff.
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Old 29th October 2012, 09:52 AM   #684
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Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
If one has an "interesting story" one tells it, and lets the audience decide whether it's interesting. One does not declare one's own story interesting, decline to tell it, and then vanish in a huff.

"I've got evidence but I'm not showing it to you" is not an unusual approach. See, for example, the threads in which people have claimed to know a totally authentic psychic, but then refused to name them.
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Old 9th November 2012, 05:13 AM   #685
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Lusikka, lots of people with varying levels of interest and time read these threads. Not everyone has the background to knowlegeably sift through the information out there. Why not post up what you think is the most convincing evidence for poltergeists?
I'd be interesting in seeing your short list of observed phenomena.
I am sorry for this delay, but cj.23 already gave some statistical information. I think the Rosenheim and Miami poltergeists are the most convincing evidence I know.

Now I can give some details, examples of the occurrences in the Rosenheim and Miami poltergeists. It was interesting to re-read my sources. There was much more stuff in these cases, the following phenomena are examples only. In English and German Wikipedia the information is very scarce.

In Rosenheim 1967/68, office of the lawyer Sigmund Adam:
- speaking clock was called more than six times per minute
- fluorescent tubes were turned 90 degrees in their sockets
- breakers went off without perceptible cause
- light bulbs were shattered, even with the filament remaining intact
- desk drawers were opened without being touched
- a 175 kg (358 lb) filing cabinet moved twice about one foot from the wall
- pictures hanging on the walls fell down

In Miami 1966/67, warehouse of the Tropication Arts:
- boxes and glass objects fell down from shelves
- the glass objects most often crashed to pieces
- a part of the objects moved rather long distances, even 36 feet
- small scale experimentation was done (target objects)
- at least 216 movements were recorded, no tricks detected
- only a few movements were actually seen, never in the starting stage

Yesterday I got the following articles about Rosenheim:
Resch, A. (1968) Der fall Rosenheim: Teil I-III. Grenzgebiete der Wissenschaft, 17,
241-249, 289-310, 339-346.
Resch, A.(1969) Der fall Rosenheim: Teil IV-V.Grenzgebiete der Wissenschaft, 18,
1-15, 49-60.

It will take a few days to read them, perhaps I will have more details to inform after that.
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Old 9th November 2012, 05:55 AM   #686
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
In Miami 1966/67, warehouse of the Tropication Arts:
- boxes and glass objects fell down from shelves
- the glass objects most often crashed to pieces
- a part of the objects moved rather long distances, even 36 feet
- small scale experimentation was done (target objects)
- at least 216 movements were recorded, no tricks detected
- only a few movements were actually seen, never in the starting stage
I'd need a lot more information than there is here in order to make any kind of real assessment, but none of this strikes me as unusal at all. Warehouse most likely means industrial estate. Industrial estate means lorries. Lorries mean vibrations. Vibrations can move things off shelves. Glass will often smash when dropped on the floor. Fragments of things which have smashed can move large distances.
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Old 9th November 2012, 06:30 AM   #687
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
In Miami 1966/67, warehouse of the Tropication Arts:
- boxes and glass objects fell down from shelves
- the glass objects most often crashed to pieces
- a part of the objects moved rather long distances, even 36 feet
- small scale experimentation was done (target objects)
- at least 216 movements were recorded, no tricks detected
- only a few movements were actually seen, never in the starting stage
I've worked in a distribution center for more than 25 years and I've seen any number of things fall and break seemingly inexplicably, live, after the fact, and on security cameras.

It's amazing how mundane the effect of gravity or momentum is when closely examined.

Last edited by Resume; 9th November 2012 at 07:28 AM. Reason: sentence structure
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Old 9th November 2012, 09:35 AM   #688
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
I think the Rosenheim and Miami poltergeists are the most convincing evidence I know.
Quote:
Rosenheim 1967/68
Quote:
Miami 1966/67,
1967 and 1968, really?
That is the best you got?
These poltergeists are not very active are they?
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Old 9th November 2012, 09:37 AM   #689
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Originally Posted by blabla View Post
1967 and 1968, really?
That is the best you got?
These poltergeists are not very active are they?
They were children of the 60s these geists . . . and now they're crotchety but silent.

Amazing how full-bodied apparitions have disappeared as well.
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Old 9th November 2012, 10:26 AM   #690
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Originally Posted by blabla View Post
1967 and 1968, really?
That is the best you got?
These poltergeists are not very active are they?
Yes, you are rihgt, unfortunately.

Thank you all of you for the comments, my expectations became fulfilled.
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Old 9th November 2012, 10:41 AM   #691
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
Thank you all of you for the comments, my expectations became fulfilled.

And for those of us who have been asking for objective evidence to support the claim that poltergeists exist, our expectations have been fulfilled as well.
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Old 9th November 2012, 11:26 AM   #692
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
Yes, you are rihgt, unfortunately.

Thank you all of you for the comments, my expectations became fulfilled.
Well, if your expectations were that objectively uncorroborated anecdotes weren't uncritically accepted, or that naturalistic explanations could be offered (if further data is available) I understand your fulfillment.

Me too.
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Old 9th November 2012, 11:28 AM   #693
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
And for those of us who have been asking for objective evidence to support the claim that poltergeists exist, our expectations have been fulfilled as well.
Yes, I understand that. But you certainly know that because poltergeists are implausible, impossible, ridiculous and so on so it is also impossible to get objective evidence of them.
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Old 9th November 2012, 11:33 AM   #694
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
Yes, I understand that. But you certainly know that because poltergeists are implausible, impossible, ridiculous and so on so it is also impossible to get objective evidence of them.
And all you have to do to prove the mean skeptics wrong is produce some unambiguous, objective evidence. Got any?
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Old 9th November 2012, 11:35 AM   #695
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
Yes, I understand that. But you certainly know that because poltergeists are implausible, impossible, ridiculous and so on so it is also impossible to get objective evidence of them.

No. Your special pleading stinks just as badly as it did when cj.23 's tried it. Here's what I know with some certainty: Nobody has ever provided any objective evidence for the existence of poltergeists, therefore it's reasonable to reject the claim that they do exist.
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Old 9th November 2012, 12:03 PM   #696
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
But you certainly know that because poltergeists are implausible, impossible, ridiculous and so on so it is also impossible to get objective evidence of them.
Lots of people thought that (to give just one example) rocks falling from the sky were implausible, impossible and ridiculous, but that didn't stop objective evidence being gathered for meteorites.

The only thing that makes it impossible to get objective evidence for a phenomenon that supposedly has a physical effect is that phenomenon's non-existence.
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Old 9th November 2012, 12:05 PM   #697
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
Yes, I understand that. But you certainly know that because poltergeists are implausible, impossible, ridiculous and so on so it is also impossible to get objective evidence of them.
If poltergeists exist, then there should be no problem getting objective evidence of them.

You say that the responses are what you thought they would be, implying that you're dissatisfied with those responses. I can't speak for anybody else, but if you could tell me what is unsatisfying about the response I gave, I'd appreciate it. It still seems like a plausible explanation to me. What information do you have about this specific case that makes you think that it's not?
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Old 9th November 2012, 02:31 PM   #698
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
If poltergeists exist, then there should be no problem getting objective evidence of them.

You say that the responses are what you thought they would be, implying that you're dissatisfied with those responses. I can't speak for anybody else, but if you could tell me what is unsatisfying about the response I gave, I'd appreciate it. It still seems like a plausible explanation to me. What information do you have about this specific case that makes you think that it's not?
What an interesting and funny avatar you have, congratulations.

There is a problem here: skeptics inevitably say all evidence is worth nothing notwithstanding how well the evidence is founded and how much there is evidence.

Your question is quite reasonable and I try to give a reasonable answer. Your post was:
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I'd need a lot more information than there is here in order to make any kind of real assessment, but none of this strikes me as unusual at all. Warehouse most likely means industrial estate. Industrial estate means lorries. Lorries mean vibrations. Vibrations can move things off shelves. Glass will often smash when dropped on the floor. Fragments of things which have smashed can move large distances.
I agree, you would need a lot more information to make a real assessment. There is a lot of information in the book "Poltergeists" by William Roll. The problem is that you are not really curious and interested to get that information. You don't read the book, because you want to use your limited spare time reading and writing on this forum and reading skeptical literature. You think it is much more useful and fun than read woo literature.

Your speculations are OK, but Roll reports how they were testing the vibration hypothesis by pushing and striking the shelves, without success. The fragments were also studied carefully, because the "throwing" direction could be determined on basis of the fragment fan spreading from the strike spot. Julio was once established to be innocent because of the direction of the fan. The glass objects could also be whole even after a long flight.
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Old 9th November 2012, 02:53 PM   #699
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
Your speculations are OK, but Roll reports how they were testing the vibration hypothesis by pushing and striking the shelves, without success. The fragments were also studied carefully, because the "throwing" direction could be determined on basis of the fragment fan spreading from the strike spot. Julio was once established to be innocent because of the direction of the fan. The glass objects could also be whole even after a long flight.
I am lost. Help me out please.
In what way does this cool story imply poltergeist activity?
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Old 9th November 2012, 02:58 PM   #700
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Lusikka, let me make this clear for you: there's no such thing as poltergeists. If you think I'm wrong, provide the evidence. Don't complain that the skeptics won't go and make your case for you.
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Old 9th November 2012, 03:43 PM   #701
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
What an interesting and funny avatar you have, congratulations.
Thank you. I made it using the record ability of an emulator. It's the old BBC Micro game Imogen.

Quote:
I agree, you would need a lot more information to make a real assessment. There is a lot of information in the book "Poltergeists" by William Roll. The problem is that you are not really curious and interested to get that information. You don't read the book, because you want to use your limited spare time reading and writing on this forum and reading skeptical literature. You think it is much more useful and fun than read woo literature.
Please don't tell me what I think. It's rude. And, besides, can you not see an irony in berating someone for being closed-minded while telling them what they think, feel, and find useful and fun? You've certainly made your mind up about me, based on 2 posts.

Quote:
Your speculations are OK, but Roll reports how they were testing the vibration hypothesis by pushing and striking the shelves, without success.
Pushing and striking shelves will create a different effect than causing them to vibrate will.

Quote:
The fragments were also studied carefully, because the "throwing" direction could be determined on basis of the fragment fan spreading from the strike spot. Julio was once established to be innocent because of the direction of the fan.
I don't know what information you're trying to convey in either of these sentences.

Quote:
The glass objects could also be whole even after a long flight.
Sometimes when you drop it, glass doesn't break. I still see nothing mysterious.
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Old 9th November 2012, 04:29 PM   #702
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Please don't tell me what I think. It's rude. And, besides, can you not see an irony in berating someone for being closed-minded while telling them what they think, feel, and find useful and fun?
You are right. Except that I nowhere said you are close-minded and I really don't think so. In my opinion it is not close-mindedness to have your stance against parapsychology.

In any case I am quite sure you have not read the book written by Roll. Perhaps you let me know why you have not read it?

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You've certainly made your mind up about me, based on 2 posts.
Not at all. It is not my habit to do so. It saves me from many troubles.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Pushing and striking shelves will create a different effect than causing them to vibrate will.
Yes, but by pushing and striking strongly you can get even stronger results. Making the shelves even vibrate in resonance.

Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
The fragments were also studied carefully, because the "throwing" direction could be determined on basis of the fragment fan spreading from the strike spot. Julio was once established to be innocent because of the direction of the fan.
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I don't know what information you're trying to convey in either of these sentences.
You must try more, with your thinking ability turned on. I don't think my English was too bad there.
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Old 9th November 2012, 04:54 PM   #703
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
If poltergeists exist, then there should be no problem getting objective evidence of them.
I think this needs to be reiterated; to those claiming poltergeists manifest themselves physically, there's no getting around this issue.

You must provide objective evidence or your claim will be rejected. Not anecdotes, not logical (allegedly) supporting arguments, but evidence of said physical manifestation.
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Old 9th November 2012, 05:07 PM   #704
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
You are right. Except that I nowhere said you are close-minded and I really don't think so. In my opinion it is not close-mindedness to have your stance against parapsychology.
Substitute "closed-minded" for whatever you like, and my point still stands.

Quote:
In any case I am quite sure you have not read the book written by Roll. Perhaps you let me know why you have not read it?
I had not heard of it, Roll, or the "warehouse of the Tropication Arts" until 2 1/2, 2 1/2 and 11 1/2 hours ago, respectively.

I do, however, had the book on order from Amazon for 2 1/2 hours now. I should have read the entry on this case within the week, assuming delivery is timely.

Quote:
Not at all. It is not my habit to do so. It saves me from many troubles.
Whether you think it's your habit or not, telling me what I'm interested in, and how I will behave based on 2 posts is exactly what you did. You dismissed my contributions to this thread based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever, and instead decided to tell me what kind of a person you believed me to be, simply because of the fact that I offered some basic, preliminary explanations for the evidence you had supplied.

Not a great way to debate, is it?

Quote:
Yes, but by pushing and striking strongly you can get even stronger results.
But not the same results.

Quote:
You must try more, with your thinking ability turned on. I don't think my English was too bad there.
Your English was fine. The content, however, is questionable.

"The fragments were also studied carefully, because the 'throwing' direction could be determined on basis of the fragment fan spreading from the strike spot." So? What were the results of this study? How were they studied? What relevance has direction to the supernatural? That sentence contains no actual information. It doesn't address any of the points I've made, and nor does it add to my understanding of the case. I'm sure you wanted it to either address something I'd said or add to my understanding of the case - but how? What information were you trying to convey to me?

"Julio was once established to be innocent because of the direction of the fan." Who is Julio? Innocent of what? How did a fan establish his innocence? Why do I care?

Again - what's the information you're trying to impart?
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Old 10th November 2012, 02:03 AM   #705
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Originally Posted by Andyman409 View Post
Why cant a Poltergeist researcher be a skeptic?
Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
Because they'll quickly come to the conclusion that it's a load of rubbish and find something better to do. Thus, the people who are most likely to be conducting such research are the people least able to do so.
Here I would add a qualifier. There are two very distinct reasons sceptics may be interested in paranormal research. I think this is what Baron hinted at early in the thread.

1. The phenomena themselves. Here I concur with PixyMisa. The phenomena are anecdotal and often the result of wildly unreliable observation. When studied objectively, they tend to rapidly fade away against background noise.
2. The psychology of the people who accept the reality of the phenomena and the psychology of those who do not. Why are sceptics and believers so different? (We, as sceptics may think of our view as "correct", but there are meta-questions to whether factual correctness is necessarily "best" in every case.)
This is a fascinating subject, with potential applications in all manner of areas. (I hate to say it, but marketing is an obvious one. If some people are inherently gullible, you can sell them different things, by different methods, from the things you can sell sceptics).

As for the question of the OP itself, my response is the hardline sceptic one. The phenomena do not exist and therefore are inexplicable. Most inexplicable things are imaginary. But imagination is a product of brains- and those are fascinating.

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Old 10th November 2012, 02:42 AM   #706
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^
Thanks for expressing so well what I think.


I've been catching up on the thread and see that little has changed.

No evidence has been shown as far as I can see, correct me if I'm wrong.
The reliance of poltergeist investigation on anecdotes and beliefs doesn't seem to have changed, either.

I'd expand the poltergeist subset to include stigmata and weeping statues and other religious phenomena involving physical manifestations of otherworldly sources.
I think it would help see the mindset of the believers in the paranormal.

Last edited by pakeha; 10th November 2012 at 04:01 AM. Reason: ETA clarifying my hideous grammar.
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Old 10th November 2012, 02:44 AM   #707
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Substitute "closed-minded" for whatever you like, and my point still stands.
All words have their specific meaning, let us take it into account. In my opinion "closed-minded" means a person who does not change his/her wrong opinion although he/she gets new objective information compelling to that change.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I had not heard of it, Roll, or the "warehouse of the Tropication Arts" until 2 1/2, 2 1/2 and 11 1/2 hours ago, respectively.

I do, however, had the book on order from Amazon for 2 1/2 hours now. I should have read the entry on this case within the week, assuming delivery is timely.
Fine, I appreciate that. But you have the Google and Wikipedia in different languages to let you know instantly. Google produced 13 500 hits when I typed "Miami poltergeist Julio".

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Whether you think it's your habit or not, telling me what I'm interested in, and how I will behave based on 2 posts is exactly what you did. You dismissed my contributions to this thread based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever, and instead decided to tell me what kind of a person you believed me to be, simply because of the fact that I offered some basic, preliminary explanations for the evidence you had supplied.
I have some objective, true information about you: you have sent here 2 400 posts, you are versed in skeptical thinking and you don't know much about parapsychology. I have discussed innumerable times with skeptics and they have told me why they are not interested about parapsychology. It is rather safe to guess that you cannot be very far from the mainstream of skepticism.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
"The fragments were also studied carefully, because the 'throwing' direction could be determined on basis of the fragment fan spreading from the strike spot." So? What were the results of this study? How were they studied? What relevance has direction to the supernatural? That sentence contains no actual information. It doesn't address any of the points I've made, and nor does it add to my understanding of the case. I'm sure you wanted it to either address something I'd said or add to my understanding of the case - but how? What information were you trying to convey to me?

"Julio was once established to be innocent because of the direction of the fan." Who is Julio? Innocent of what? How did a fan establish his innocence? Why do I care?

Again - what's the information you're trying to impart?
Well, let us take it more clearly:

1. If you have not seen a snowball or a lump of snow or something alike be thrown to the ground in an oblique angle so you can experiment with it. The snowball disintegrates and the fan-shaped trace shows you clearly the throwing direction. I wrote "throwing" because throwing was never observed in those 216 incidents.

2. Julio was suspected for throwing the objects and he was under strict surveillance. In that case the fan of the fragments was against him. So it is impossible that he would have thrown the object.
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Old 10th November 2012, 03:03 AM   #708
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post

Fine, I appreciate that. But you have the Google and Wikipedia in different languages to let you know instantly. Google produced 13 500 hits when I typed "Miami poltergeist Julio".
Oh, well, if that's the way you want to do it, a search for "poltergeists debunked' gave 2,700,000 results.
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Old 10th November 2012, 03:15 AM   #709
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Oh, well, if that's the way you want to do it, a search for "poltergeists debunked' gave 2,700,000 results.
Right, skeptics are born to win!
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Old 10th November 2012, 03:45 AM   #710
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Oh, well, if that's the way you want to do it, a search for "poltergeists debunked' gave 2,700,000 results.
In science it is always operated with facts, not with opinions of the big masses of general population.
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Old 10th November 2012, 03:48 AM   #711
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
All words have their specific meaning, let us take it into account. In my opinion "closed-minded" means a person who does not change his/her wrong opinion although he/she gets new objective information compelling to that change.
Which, judging by your posts, accurately describes your attitude towards me.

Quote:
Fine, I appreciate that. But you have the Google and Wikipedia in different languages to let you know instantly. Google produced 13 500 hits when I typed "Miami poltergeist Julio".
You have the burden of proof. You are supposed to be offering up what you consider to be the best evidence for poltergeists. If your argument relies on specific information, then it is up to you to provide it.

Quote:
I have some objective, true information about you: you have sent here 2 400 posts, you are versed in skeptical thinking and you don't know much about parapsychology.
That's information that's both objective and true, is it? Reads to me more like a couple of assumptions you've made.

Quote:
I have discussed innumerable times with skeptics and they have told me why they are not interested about parapsychology.
So you're judging me by the behavior of others, merely because I post on this forum?

Quote:
It is rather safe to guess that you cannot be very far from the mainstream of skepticism.
Except that you're actually wrong. And, even though you now know that this is incorrect, you're still maintaining that it's true. Sorry, but the term "closed-minded" fits perfectly, as far as I can see.

Quote:
Well, let us take it more clearly:

1. If you have not seen a snowball or a lump of snow or something alike be thrown to the ground in an oblique angle so you can experiment with it. The snowball disintegrates and the fan-shaped trace shows you clearly the throwing direction. I wrote "throwing" because throwing was never observed in those 216 incidents.
Yes, you've said all of this. This still doesn't impart any actual information to me. Which of my statements is this relevant to, and how does it relate to it?

Quote:
2. Julio was suspected for throwing the objects and he was under strict surveillance. In that case the fan of the fragments was against him. So it is impossible that he would have thrown the object.
Okay, that actually contains some information, although not much. But you haven't answered the most important question - so what?
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Old 10th November 2012, 04:05 AM   #712
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You have the burden of proof. You are supposed to be offering up what you consider to be the best evidence for poltergeists. If your argument relies on specific information, then it is up to you to provide it.
Thank you, but you or anybody else here cannot impose any obligations on me. I only give some information in case it would interest somebody. And it is always fun to discuss with people.
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Old 10th November 2012, 04:21 AM   #713
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Except that you're actually wrong. And, even though you now know that this is incorrect, you're still maintaining that it's true. Sorry, but the term "closed-minded" fits perfectly, as far as I can see.
Yes, possibly I have been wrong. It would be interesting to see your answers to the following questions:
- why have you been rather active here on this forum
- how do you differ from the mainstream of skepticism
- how much do you know about parapsychology
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Old 10th November 2012, 05:14 AM   #714
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
Thank you, but you or anybody else here cannot impose any obligations on me.
Absolutely. And you don't have to provide the evidence for why you think a case is convincing when asked to provide the most convincing evidence you think there is for poltergeists. But if you don't provide the evidence that you think is convincing, then you can't then blame others for failing to be convinced by it.

It's entirely up to you how strongly you want to make your case. If people aren't convinced by what you've said because you've chosen to leave out vital information, then that lack of conviction is down to you.
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Old 10th November 2012, 06:52 AM   #715
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
Right, skeptics are born to win!

Science was developed as the best way we know so far for obtaining an objective explanation about the universe we live in. People who believe poltergeists exist have reached their conclusion by relying on faith rather than science. No objective evidence has been provided to support the claim that poltergeists exist.

Skeptics weren't born to win. But if by "win" you mean hold the position that is objectively correct according to everything we know so far, skeptics are indeed winning. If you'd like to change that situation, all you have to do is bring some objective evidence to support the claim that poltergeists exist.
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Old 10th November 2012, 07:06 AM   #716
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
In science it is always operated with facts, not with opinions of the big masses of general population.

Claims that poltergeists exist, on the other hand, are apparently supported by numbers of Google hits...

Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
Fine, I appreciate that. But you have the Google and Wikipedia in different languages to let you know instantly. Google produced 13 500 hits when I typed "Miami poltergeist Julio".

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Old 10th November 2012, 08:01 AM   #717
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
Thank you, but you or anybody else here cannot impose any obligations on me.
Yes we can. You want us to believe poltergeists exist. Fine. We've told you what it will take. Put up or shut up.
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Old 10th November 2012, 09:11 AM   #718
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
Thank you, but you or anybody else here cannot impose any obligations on me. I only give some information in case it would interest somebody. And it is always fun to discuss with people.
Next time you go on a job interview, tell the interviewer that he/she cannot oblige you to convince him/her that they should hire you.
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Old 10th November 2012, 12:06 PM   #719
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Originally Posted by Sledge View Post
Yes we can. You want us to believe poltergeists exist. Fine. We've told you what it will take. Put up or shut up.
You have misunderstood what I want. I am not so foolish after many, many years that I would want you to believe anything. To take such a task is hopeless. Believe or not believe – your choice. But it is fun to discuss and it is sort of a lesson to meet you all here.
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Old 10th November 2012, 12:41 PM   #720
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Originally Posted by Lusikka View Post
But it is fun to discuss and it is sort of a lesson to meet you all here.
If you believe it is fun to discuss it, then why have you not answered the questions I've put to you about the case? Your last 3 posts have had nothing to do with the case you've wanted to discuss.
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