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Tags D.I.D. , Dr. Phil , false memory syndrome , Judy Byington , mind control , mpd , multiple personalities , recovered memory therapy , satanic ritual abuse

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Old 24th October 2012, 01:31 AM   #41
Orphia Nay
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Originally Posted by Altus View Post
The sad this is, it IS in the DSM. Don't want to go off topic, but there is a whole group of therapists including Ross and company who are very influential with the APA and have fought tooth and nail and succeeded in keeping this diagnosis in there. They are part of an organization called ISSTD (International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation) that probably has more malpractice suits (in the USA) collectively than any other professional health organization in history. On the other hand, there are a number of folks with some pretty impressive credentials in the profession who are fighting to get it out of the DSM. So far, the former is winning. Does not help that the head working group who advises the APA on this diagnosis is on record for hypnotizing people to discover their "alters".
We're both right, I think. MPD isn't in the DSM, but DID (Dissociate Identity Disorder) is. Unless I'm mistaken.
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Old 24th October 2012, 02:20 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
We're both right, I think. MPD isn't in the DSM, but DID (Dissociate Identity Disorder) is. Unless I'm mistaken.
You are correct. The ISSTD rebranded MPD after a boatload of lawsuits hit its membership. They also rebranded their "professional" association to eliminate MPD from their title. It's the usual suspects in the membership though...Ross, Kluft, and Satanic Ritual Abuse proponents like Valarie Stinason and Ellen P. Lacter who just presented at the ISSTD conference where social workers in the USA go for "continuing educational credits" and can pick up these delusional belief systems while getting professionally credited. The bulk of therapists in the USA are social workers. Google "The mystery of Carole Myers" for a gut wrenching story. These are the folks "teaching" therapists unchecked by the APA---because they are powerful within the APA. These are the folks Doug Mesner is attempting to address.
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Old 24th October 2012, 03:53 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by douglas mesner View Post
I wrote a pretty lengthy piece, in fact, about the similarities between abduction stories and satanic ritual abuse claims that you can find online if you google my name and the title, 'among the brain-washed and abused'.
I wrote this very short article in about 1990, about the same thing. I'm sure I wasn't the only one to notice the similarities.
I was active at the time in combatting the SRA myth and, yes, I got called a paedophile for it.
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Old 24th October 2012, 06:26 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Those who learn from history are doomed to watch others who didn't.
+1

I don't know whether to nominate this for pith or just the regular language award. So frustrating.
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Old 24th October 2012, 07:22 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post

I would hope Dr Phil is aware that there is no such thing as MPD. It's not in the DSM.
[/i]
===
Well, MPD is and isn't in the DSM. It's been renamed Dissociative Identity Disorder in what seems to have been an attempt to make it appear that there is some type of evolving science here. Or maybe it's to try and confuse people into thinking we're talking about something other than a debunked fad.
That's a great letter to the show though. At least now we'll know we're being ignored.
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Old 24th October 2012, 07:27 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Those who learn from history are doomed to watch others who didn't.
Do we just watch or do we get involved? Along those lines, many thanks to those of you who went to Byington's book "Twenty-two Faces" on Amazon and voted the critical reviews up and the positive ones down. Doug's fact-packed review is still not showing at the top of all the believers, but you've more than doubled his "helpful" votes. JREFers Rock!
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Old 24th October 2012, 07:41 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by sophia8 View Post
I wrote this very short article[/url] in about 1990, about the same thing. I'm sure I wasn't the only one to notice the similarities.
I was active at the time in combatting the SRA myth and, yes, I got called a paedophile for it.
That was a great piece. You got it exactly right. Budd Hopkins' ex-wife is now quite open about how credulous and even dishonest he was. OF COURSE you got called a paedophile for it. That's the absolutely infuriating thing. Dr. Phil's guest, Judy Byington, hasn't been able to do any better in rebutting my criticisms of her book than to claim that I am simply defending rapists and murders. It's the same for any critic who comes along. Because the satanic cult conspiracy theorists fly the false banner of child protection, any criticism -- even if it be aimed at the most ludicrous of supernatural propositions or unlikely of conspiracy theories -- simply establishes you as a paedophile. In fact, they are doing a massive dis-service to actual victims. They try to absorb them into their conspiracy theories. They take vulnerable people and feed them delusion. They hide behind the truly abused and use them as human shields so that their sick fantasies might not be exposed. They've dragged the names of memory researchers and experimental psychologists through the mud again and again. They've been so effective that many in the field fail to comment on the continued lunacy. I think it's one of the most foul, irrational movements around.

Last edited by douglas mesner; 24th October 2012 at 07:44 AM. Reason: clarity
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Old 24th October 2012, 07:44 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Back in the 80s, I was actually given a "training film" on "How to Spot Ritual Satanic Activity" that was produced by some ex-copper who had jumped on the Satanic bandwagon.....Quite amusing, actually...
Haven't heard anything since, unless I watch old X-files repeats....
In the early '90s, when I worked as an interpreter for the Deaf, an upper-level psych class had a guest speaker on the topic of Multiple Personality Disorder, who ended up being a nutjob who went on and on about ritual satanic nonsense. During the Q & A, one student noted that she was speaking of the alter-ego identified as the devil as if she believed it were the devil, and asked flat out if she believed these were actually devils, and the answer was yes, she did.

It was a shame too, because the class was otherwise rock solid--if a little boring. The instructor's lectures were very strictly descriptions and summaries of the research, including good descriptions of the methodologies. IIRC, she pretty much told the class to forget that entire guest lecture.
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Old 24th October 2012, 08:11 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by douglas mesner View Post
I suspect you read my own piece about him. I know it made its rounds, but if you see where I originally posted it on Process dot org, you'll note that Ross himself took a moment out to object to the piece in the comments. His rebuttal is so remarkably pathetic that I feel you'll agree that he only made himself look worse. There was hardly anything left to rebut, as I embedded scans of court documents, sworn affidavits, etc, into the piece itself. If you're interested, I have a site called Dysgenics dot com, and there is page there titled "evidence". In "evidence" you'll find the compiled Ross documents.
Yes sir, it was your article that I read i just misplaced the link. It was quite well written and researched, thank you. You were right to state at the beginning that her story was so unbelievable as to make the research links necessary. After all, her story is as crazy a conspiracy as any lunatic has ever woven and anyone would want desperately to believe that it is not true.

I'm sad to hear that this Ross monster has not been brought to justice. He is the sort of boogeyman who haunts the dreams of adults and it is all the more terrifying to know that he is real.
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Old 24th October 2012, 08:16 AM   #50
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Younger journalists may not remember the Satanic Panic well enough to know what they're peddling, but what's Dr. Phil's excuse? He's plenty old enough to remember the 80s, and with a background in clinical psychology he should know the history.

Douglas Mesner - brilliant letter. Now off to Amazon to thumbs up your review of this dangerous clap trap.
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Old 24th October 2012, 08:20 AM   #51
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I don't believe that DID is legit. I've looked into it a bit especially when the United State of Tara was on and the evidence reveals it is total BS.

I grew up in a way where I was terribly abused as a child. And I remember it all. You look at Jaycee Duggard and it's the same thing. While I do accept that in some cases of disassociation people can do things they wouldn't normally do, I really have a hard time believing any of this.

The people I have met in my own life who try to talk about repressed memories were both mistaken.

One was a sister who had been convinced by my mother (she of the FITH variety) that one of my friends had sexually molested her when she was a child. The thing is, the friend is actually my sister's age. So if she was five years old when this allegedly happened, then my friend would have been five years old as well, not a teenaged boy.

My sister has said numerous times that she believes it happened because explain "Why can't I remember what happened?" When I try to point out that it's most likely because nothing happened she can't grasp it. She realizes that it couldn't have been my friend but now thinks that some guy out there did this to her. The other thing is that I was with her at the time this allegedly happened but left her at the playground for ten minutes to run across the street and get ice cream from the truck. IMO she was traumatized at being abandoned and that is the source of the emotions.

But she to this day hangs on to her being sexually molested on a playground in broad daylight with people everywhere in a matter of ten minutes by a man that looks exactly like my friend older, but she doesn't remember any of it.
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Old 24th October 2012, 09:11 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
I don't believe that DID is legit. I've looked into it a bit especially when the United State of Tara was on and the evidence reveals it is total BS.
Sorry to hear about your childhood. And, you are spot on with a number of respected researchers who think trauma is more likely to be remembered than "repressed".

Colin Ross, who wrote the intro to the book 22 Faces, was a "consultant" on Tara. The only way this crap will stop is if enough rational people stand up and say BS! We are not talking waving crystals and murmuring mantras here. We are talking about people who believe in this stuff screwing up people for life.
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Old 24th October 2012, 09:33 AM   #53
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Not only is it screwing the people up, the accusations are screwing up the reputations of innocent people.

My other friend who doesn't remember but "knows" thinks her father sexually molested her when she was two years old. No evidence at all but she tells the entire world that this is true. I think it is repulsive.

I do think that unacknowledged trauma can cause people to seek out attention. I've found in my own life times where I want people to understand that I was traumatized when most people don't "get it." For example as a child I was kept in a basement and neglected for months at a time (over summer vacation) this would be times where I wasn't fed and I was abandoned in a dark unfinished basement. My sisters remember me as being "punished' or "sent to my room." So from their angle they are getting a picture that is much less traumatic than what it felt like for me.

I think that women who have these memories (and it's usually woman) often display a sense of neediness for attention in their real lives. They are suffering somehow and want attention. Perhaps they don't feel that they can get people to understand their feelings so they dramatize the level of victimhood they felt.

So to outsiders we'd say "your father was cold and withdrawn" to my friend it was her father horribly abused her. My sister felt abandoned and victimized and tries to parlay that into being abused.

I think it speaks to the need for people to validate the emotions of people who have experienced trauma. On the other hand I think people need to grow the eff up and stop playing the victim card relentlessly. As I've pointed out numerous times on here I feel that women are often encouraged to think of themselves as victims and this is very unempowering and damaging to society as a whole.
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Old 24th October 2012, 10:06 AM   #54
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My false memories make my life meaningful and impress others.

Like that time I was being beat up by Somali slave traders and I barely escaped by joining a drug-fueled child army. Sure, it was tough, but I'm tougher now because of it. (Now like me.)
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Old 24th October 2012, 10:29 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Not only is it screwing the people up, the accusations are screwing up the reputations of innocent people.

My other friend who doesn't remember but "knows" thinks her father sexually molested her when she was two years old. No evidence at all but she tells the entire world that this is true. I think it is repulsive.

I do think that unacknowledged trauma can cause people to seek out attention. I've found in my own life times where I want people to understand that I was traumatized when most people don't "get it."...
This is the truly horrible thing about this therapeutic fraud. Somebody with real problems stemming from real abuse may just as easily be absorbed into conspiracy theory and delusion as the product of bad therapy. After all, if you remember being abused as you were, who knows what you might be "repressing"? Soon, you'll have all new traumas to reconcile. And the level of indoctrination is frightening. When I try to point out the errors and irrationality of Recovered Memory Therapies to those who have been told that they've repressed their traumas, they all use the same language to dismiss.
1) They claim that my argument is abusive, and thus "triggering". Therefore it is in their best interests to not even consider what I am saying. Triggering, in the PTSD sense, is meant to define anything that acts as a cue to trigger uncomfortable memories, or cause a flashback in the damaged individual. It has been co-opted by Dissociative Disorder experts in multiple personalities to create an impenetrable shield against any information that might make them reconsider their position.
2) They accuse me having an "agenda". Of course, we all have agendas when we present an argument. Sometimes our agenda is nothing more than wanting the truth to be known and to see people stop getting hurt by misinformation. But that's not what they mean. This is their way of leveling the tired accusation that I am, in fact, protecting perpetrators of abuse.
3) They protest that the critics of DID/MPD have not worked in the "field", meaning they've never given therapy to the DID/MPD afflicted. Strictly speaking, this isn't true. People like Paul McHugh have taken on such clients and when he failed to humor their personality changes, they simply stopped.
4) They provide a lengthy laundry list of citations to studies "proving" the phenomenon. Never mind that the studies are almost always retrospective surveys of those who already had a belief in the phenomenon, and the others are often bad data, or data manipulated into false conclusions. Harrison Pope and Richard McNally have painstakingly documented the glaring flaws in all of the major studies.

Behind closed doors and protected by client privilege, these therapists feed people delusion as well as the dysfunctional thinking tools with which to ignore encroachments of logic.
Re-writing the autobiographical memory is the most powerful indoctrination tool. Most people don't realize, but Scientology, with its own "auditing" searches of of early (even pre-birth) traumas, is essentially this type of psychotherapy cult.
I'm very sorry to hear about your past, but I'm extremely proud to see you've kept your wits.
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Old 24th October 2012, 10:37 AM   #56
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Of course, they have no agenda.
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Old 24th October 2012, 11:08 AM   #57
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To clarify a point I made above:
"They protest that the critics of DID/MPD have not worked in the "field", meaning they've never given therapy to the DID/MPD afflicted. Strictly speaking, this isn't true. People like Paul McHugh have taken on such clients and when he failed to humor their personality changes, they simply stopped."
Of course, the point here is that DID/MPD doesn't exist in the clients of those who don't believe in the condition because the condition relies upon a therapy or social context that creates it.
It's similar to the argument that false memory research -- such as Elizabeth Loftus's experiments to implant false memories in subjects such as early memories of being lost in a mall -- are irrelevant for the fact that these aren't truly TRAUMATIC memories, and there is no evidence, the argument goes, that traumatic false memories can be implanted.
This isn't true, either, of course, but it seems like a safe place to bring the argument because nobody is going to approve an experiment to intentionally implant false memories of sexual abuse or satanic cult antics. However, Richard McNally at Harvard has demonstrated that traumatic memories of alien abduction act the same as real traumas in the minds of true believers. Also, similar to the Lost In The Mall experiment, subjects were made to create false memories of being attacked by a dog. (Lack of citation, I know, but still some number of posts off from being able to post links. This stuff is readily searchable though, if anybody is so inclined...)
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:07 PM   #58
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"Younger journalists may not remember the Satanic Panic well enough to know what they're peddling, but what's Dr. Phil's excuse? He's plenty old enough to remember the 80s, and with a background in clinical psychology he should know the history.

Douglas Mesner - brilliant letter. Now off to Amazon to thumbs up your review of this dangerous clap trap."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Whoops, meant to quote the above with the "quote" button.)

Dr. Phil is about ratings. He puts forward this "Dr." title but when he is sued, as he has been, claims he's an "entertainer".

Thanks to all who did the "thumps up" of Doug's review on Amazon of "Twenty-two Faces". I can't help but think Judy Byington is perplexed at the moment by the sudden surge in Doug's review "helpful" numbers. Maybe it's Satan!

Last edited by Altus; 24th October 2012 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:19 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Altus View Post
I can't help but think Judy Byington is perplexed at the moment by the sudden surge in Doug's review "helpful" numbers. Maybe it's Satan!
Judy Byington did forward the idea that I'm a Satanist (rather than actually replying to any of my criticisms) on some website that was discussing her book. I think she is seriously mentally disturbed.
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Old 24th October 2012, 01:48 PM   #60
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I'd like to have some false memories of my affair with George Clooney installed.
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Old 24th October 2012, 01:55 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by douglas mesner View Post
To clarify a point I made above:
"They protest that the critics of DID/MPD have not worked in the "field", meaning they've never given therapy to the DID/MPD afflicted. Strictly speaking, this isn't true. People like Paul McHugh have taken on such clients and when he failed to humor their personality changes, they simply stopped."
Of course, the point here is that DID/MPD doesn't exist in the clients of those who don't believe in the condition because the condition relies upon a therapy or social context that creates it.
It's similar to the argument that false memory research -- such as Elizabeth Loftus's experiments to implant false memories in subjects such as early memories of being lost in a mall -- are irrelevant for the fact that these aren't truly TRAUMATIC memories, and there is no evidence, the argument goes, that traumatic false memories can be implanted.
This isn't true, either, of course, but it seems like a safe place to bring the argument because nobody is going to approve an experiment to intentionally implant false memories of sexual abuse or satanic cult antics. However, Richard McNally at Harvard has demonstrated that traumatic memories of alien abduction act the same as real traumas in the minds of true believers. Also, similar to the Lost In The Mall experiment, subjects were made to create false memories of being attacked by a dog. (Lack of citation, I know, but still some number of posts off from being able to post links. This stuff is readily searchable though, if anybody is so inclined...)
There was a case years ago where a woman sued her father for using her in a satanic ritual and raping her. He didn't do it. The woman had many mental issues. Her psychiatrist helped her mount a massive law suit against him and on the show (a 20/20) type deal the interviewers basically showed the Dr that the information was wrong. The Dr. said he knew it didn't happen but part of his "therapy" was helping the client get closure on this.

It does piss me off as someone who went through what I did growing up. I am particularly sensitive to false rape accusations based on my own experiences.

I understand triggering because it's happened to me many times (even on here where I'm pretty open about things) but it really upsets me to see people co opt real trauma for false accusations.

I still have tremendous sympathy for the women who are going through this, because obviously they are traumatized in some way. But I get angry at people who facilitate lying.
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Old 24th October 2012, 02:06 PM   #62
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When using the services a therapist, as I did during my divorce, it's a good idea to 'pre-screen' the professional you plan on seeing. I was pretty up-front with the counselors I spoke with about my atheism and materialism. I found that the therapists who held idealist and theistic views were very frank about it, which I appreciated. I suppose one should add questions about repressed memories when they vet potential psychologists now days.
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Old 24th October 2012, 02:12 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
There was a case years ago where a woman sued her father for using her in a satanic ritual and raping her. He didn't do it. The woman had many mental issues. Her psychiatrist helped her mount a massive law suit against him and on the show (a 20/20) type deal the interviewers basically showed the Dr that the information was wrong. The Dr. said he knew it didn't happen but part of his "therapy" was helping the client get closure on this.

It does piss me off as someone who went through what I did growing up. I am particularly sensitive to false rape accusations based on my own experiences.

I understand triggering because it's happened to me many times (even on here where I'm pretty open about things) but it really upsets me to see people co opt real trauma for false accusations.

I still have tremendous sympathy for the women who are going through this, because obviously they are traumatized in some way. But I get angry at people who facilitate lying.
I often hear this excuse also -- that it really doesn't matter what the truth of the matter is because these "memories" be they true or false, need to be resolved either way. This ignores the accusation that these memories were the result of bad therapy and not preexisting manifestations of some other problem. However, even if they were, the truth absolutely DOES matter in how one treats the situation. To say that the truth of the "memory" has no bearing on the therapy (as Colin Ross essentially does in his introduction to 22 Faces) is the ultimate in reckless therapy. How can anybody say that it doesn't really matter whether it is true that you were abused by particular individuals or not? If it is NOT true, surely we wouldn't want to help cultivate a belief that it is. How could that possibly be therapeutic?
And it is quite apparent how ANTI-therapeutic it is. People I've spoken with who have been indoctrinated into this conspiracy theory are severely and obviously emotionally crippled, and sadly convinced that the therapy keeps them from being worse. However, it is obvious -- when the idea of "triggering" keeps them from considering disconfirming evidence, and they have been trained to view the world from a suspicious, paranoid framework that has extended whatever abuse they may possibly have suffered into a world-wide satanic plot -- that the "therapy" has greatly undermined their ability to think sanely and critically.
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Old 24th October 2012, 02:15 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Trish Randall View Post
I'd like to have some false memories of my affair with George Clooney installed.
We can remember it for you wholesale.


http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7..._You_Wholesale
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Old 24th October 2012, 02:29 PM   #65
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I know Roma found her way out of this rabbit hole. Are there other success stories?

It must be incredibly difficult. They must accept that so many things are lies:

Satanic Ritual Abuse
Recovered Memories
Multiple Personalities.

This is woo built on woo.
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Old 24th October 2012, 02:42 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by couchsloth View Post
I'm kinda surprised that this Satanic rituals/repressed-memories nonsense is still being taken seriously by so many.
What do these people think of the Daycare sex-abuse hysteria of the 1980's-90's?
Didn't they learn anything from these false cases of ritual sex abuse?
Or perhaps they just think those daycare workers got away with it.
Got away with it? Sure, if by "got away with it" you mean were unjustly jailed because quite a few of them were.
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Old 24th October 2012, 02:54 PM   #67
douglas mesner
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
I know Roma found her way out of this rabbit hole. Are there other success stories?

It must be incredibly difficult. They must accept that so many things are lies:

Satanic Ritual Abuse
Recovered Memories
Multiple Personalities.

This is woo built on woo.
Oh, yeah. I've spoken to a good number of success stories. I've interviewed some others on Process dot org. Jeanette Bartha underwent this therapeutic abuse at the hands of one Richard Hicks in Philadelphia. Now she has a website where she maintains information and news about psychiatric abuse. Meredith Maran wrote a book, My Lie, about coming to realize that her false memories were a lie that ruined her relationship with her father. Sheri Storm underwent this absurd therapy at the hands of a raving moron named Kenneth C. Olson, who also treated a woman named Nadeen Cool (whom he convinced had an alter of a duck. He also performed an exorcism on her). Both Storm and Cool snapped out of it and sued the clearly mentally defective Olson, however, he is still in practice.
There are countless others, and it has been terribly difficult for them to climb their way out of the quagmire of misinformation and delusion, especially as these have been instilled in them as their very identities. Often (like in joining a malicious cult) they have been convinced that their families are abusive, thus they cut ties with them. Then they re-establish a "family" with "support" people who cultivate their false beliefs with them. When they come to retract, they are turning their backs on everything. They probably have to come to grips with the idea that they have falsely accused a family member, who may or may not ever forgive them. The False Memory Syndrome Foundation acts as a resource and network for these people, and the amount of irresponsible misinformation the therapeutic frauds have put out about them is enormous. Of course, they are a CIA front, and they are strictly concerned with protecting abusers.

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Old 24th October 2012, 03:02 PM   #68
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Great, Doug!

Link to your site: http://www.process.org/discept/

False Memory Syndrome Foundation: http://www.fmsfonline.org/ ETA: I see James Randi is on the Scientific and Professional Advisory Board.
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Old 24th October 2012, 03:06 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Got away with it? Sure, if by "got away with it" you mean were unjustly jailed because quite a few of them were.
There's only one aspect of this which is even worse than the innocent being jailed for crimes which never existed outside of the false memories created by irresponsible "therapists", and that's the innocent being jailed for crimes which were committed while the guilty party got away.

The West Memphis Three case is a prime example of Satanic Panic perverting the course of a criminal case, the Wimbledon Common murder is another. I think there was also an element in the Meredith Kercher murder.

Then there's the sad spectacle of Noreen Gosch, whose son went missing at the age of 13, and thanks to Gunderson et al, she is convinced that he was kidnapped by the CIA and subjected to mind control yada yada.
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Old 24th October 2012, 03:18 PM   #70
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And wasn't there also a woman who accused her father of murdering her childhood friend after she'd fallen prey to false memory syndrome? He was convicted, iirc and then it was overturned on appeal. Sorry, can't remember the names involved.
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Old 24th October 2012, 03:27 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
...It does piss me off as someone who went through what I did growing up. I am particularly sensitive to false rape accusations based on my own experiences.
A few years back I recall overhearing a co-worker telling her friend that she just "knew" that her teenaged daughter's recent nightmare about "a man with no face" meant that her ex-husband (the child's father) must have sexually molested her. No other evidence, just the one, seemingly meaningless dream -- but that was enough apparently.

Not that she'd have an agenda or anything.
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Old 24th October 2012, 03:28 PM   #72
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There's a terrible case now where a young man is sitting in jail. All based on a false memory with absolutely NO evidence linking him to the crime.

It's sickening.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...in;contentBody
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Old 24th October 2012, 03:42 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
There's only one aspect of this which is even worse than the innocent being jailed for crimes which never existed outside of the false memories created by irresponsible "therapists", and that's the innocent being jailed for crimes which were committed while the guilty party got away.

The West Memphis Three case is a prime example of Satanic Panic perverting the course of a criminal case, the Wimbledon Common murder is another. I think there was also an element in the Meredith Kercher murder.

Then there's the sad spectacle of Noreen Gosch, whose son went missing at the age of 13, and thanks to Gunderson et al, she is convinced that he was kidnapped by the CIA and subjected to mind control yada yada.
!!! You mention Gunderson! I wrote a detailed little biography of Gunderson that I put together from his FBI file, News reports, and even conversations I personally had with the old fool! Alas, I think only 1 or 2 people read it. I was thinking about posting it as a topic in this forum when I'm able (though I'm not sure the etiquette in promoting your own material). I include James Randi being interviewed by Anderson Cooper regarding Sylvia Brown, where Cooper mentioned that Gunderson was quoted as saying the Brown is very accurate. "That's a senior FBI agent. Are you telling me he's wrong?" Anyway, the title of my piece is: "Ted Gunderson: Death of a Public Paranoid", and I'd love know what you think of it if you find the time to read it. He used his former FBI status to help spread delusional false memory based panic wherever he went.
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Old 24th October 2012, 03:44 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by douglas mesner View Post
!!! You mention Gunderson! I wrote a detailed little biography of Gunderson that I put together from his FBI file, News reports, and even conversations I personally had with the old fool! Alas, I think only 1 or 2 people read it. I was thinking about posting it as a topic in this forum when I'm able (though I'm not sure the etiquette in promoting your own material). I include James Randi being interviewed by Anderson Cooper regarding Sylvia Brown, where Cooper mentioned that Gunderson was quoted as saying the Brown is very accurate. "That's a senior FBI agent. Are you telling me he's wrong?" Anyway, the title of my piece is: "Ted Gunderson: Death of a Public Paranoid", and I'd love know what you think of it if you find the time to read it. He used his former FBI status to help spread delusional false memory based panic wherever he went.
Link: http://www.process.org/discept/2012/...blic-paranoid/
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Old 24th October 2012, 03:47 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by douglas mesner View Post
!!! You mention Gunderson! I wrote a detailed little biography of Gunderson that I put together from his FBI file, News reports, and even conversations I personally had with the old fool! Alas, I think only 1 or 2 people read it. I was thinking about posting it as a topic in this forum when I'm able (though I'm not sure the etiquette in promoting your own material). I include James Randi being interviewed by Anderson Cooper regarding Sylvia Brown, where Cooper mentioned that Gunderson was quoted as saying the Brown is very accurate. "That's a senior FBI agent. Are you telling me he's wrong?" Anyway, the title of my piece is: "Ted Gunderson: Death of a Public Paranoid", and I'd love know what you think of it if you find the time to read it. He used his former FBI status to help spread delusional false memory based panic wherever he went.
I'd be very interested to read it, I'm going to follow Prof Yaffle's link right now and read it.

Meantime, have you ever heard of "Dr" Dale Griffis, and if so what is your opinion on him?
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Old 24th October 2012, 04:14 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by douglas mesner View Post
!!! You mention Gunderson! I wrote a detailed little biography of Gunderson that I put together from his FBI file, News reports, and even conversations I personally had with the old fool! Alas, I think only 1 or 2 people read it. I was thinking about posting it as a topic in this forum when I'm able (though I'm not sure the etiquette in promoting your own material). I include James Randi being interviewed by Anderson Cooper regarding Sylvia Brown, where Cooper mentioned that Gunderson was quoted as saying the Brown is very accurate. "That's a senior FBI agent. Are you telling me he's wrong?" Anyway, the title of my piece is: "Ted Gunderson: Death of a Public Paranoid", and I'd love know what you think of it if you find the time to read it. He used his former FBI status to help spread delusional false memory based panic wherever he went.
I loved it! Very detailed and interesting. I was especially intrigued by the Macdonald material. I recently came across the Stoeckley confession and had mistakenly believed it might represent some basis for reasonable doubt. Now that you furnished its provenance, I can see this "evidence" can be pretty much dismissed as utterly bogus. As for Gunderson himself, he was delusional to be sure but he also seems to have had the wherewithal to make a second career out of it.
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Old 24th October 2012, 06:23 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
I'd be very interested to read it, I'm going to follow Prof Yaffle's link right now and read it.

Meantime, have you ever heard of "Dr" Dale Griffis, and if so what is your opinion on him?
Yeah, I know about Griffis, and he was just a silly panic purveyor. However, without digging through my notes, I'm hesitant to say what I "know" about him, as a lot of material I have on him is hearsay and I can't off-hand remember which egregious acts of his I more-or-less confirmed. I had many talks with a woman who used to work quite closely with him, and she had some remarkable things to say about Griffis being a con-man and being involved in outright criminal activity, but for various reasons I think I would be irresponsible to use her testimony uncritically.
I also had a lot of salacious hearsay reports about Gunderson and his sexual antics with his side-show of "brain-washed" former government/Illuminati sex-slaves. If I had gotten, say, one of the side-show to say that herself, or somebody who credibly claimed to witness it, I may have included that in my piece -- unfortunately, the best I got were people who were told by other people...
BTW, I think Griffis was taken on in a book -- perhaps the book that debunked Warnke...? I'll have to look it up...
I still have great material regarding Gunderson and his McMartin Preschool "investigation". I kind of put off writing the 2nd Gunderson piece because I literally think that with 2 more people reading the 1st piece, I doubled my reads from the previous months.

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Old 24th October 2012, 07:24 PM   #78
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Much of the difficulty around Ritual Satanic Abuse is related to an understanding of 'revovered memory'. Psychologists are notoriously slow with their research. Elizabeth Loftus, and only Elizabeth Loftus, gets cited all the time because she was only psychogist doing relevant research when RSA and revovered memory became issues. It's taken a very long time for research psychologists address the problem.

Some more recent papers that are interesting in this context are,
A New Solution to the Recovered Memory Debate
Compares people who report recovered memory of sexual abuse with people who report having been sexually abused but for various reasons have not thought about the incident for a long time. "They either failed to think about their abuse for many years or forgot their previous recollections, and they recalled them spontaneously after encountering reminders outside of psychotherapy." People who recalled these memories outside of therapy had the same rate of corroboration as people who never forgot their abuse. The conslusion is that "recalling childhood sexual abuse after many years is not the same thing as having recalled a previously repressed memory of trauma."

There are several papers that deal with accounts of recovered memory that were then retracted.
The Construction of False Memory Syndrome: The Experience of Retractors
This paper is not available on the net. I have a paper copy. If anyone is interested in it, send me a pm with your e-mail and I'll see if I can send it to you.
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Old 24th October 2012, 07:29 PM   #79
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I don't think a lot about things. That's what triggering can me to me. I'll start going along in a conversation and then sail off the rails in a way that's traumatic.

That I can understand. Or just a person shutting down or flipping out.

But repressed memories don't seem real in this regard.
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Old 25th October 2012, 12:37 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by douglas mesner View Post
Yeah, I know about Griffis, and he was just a silly panic purveyor. However, without digging through my notes, I'm hesitant to say what I "know" about him, as a lot of material I have on him is hearsay and I can't off-hand remember which egregious acts of his I more-or-less confirmed. I had many talks with a woman who used to work quite closely with him, and she had some remarkable things to say about Griffis being a con-man and being involved in outright criminal activity, but for various reasons I think I would be irresponsible to use her testimony uncritically.
I also had a lot of salacious hearsay reports about Gunderson and his sexual antics with his side-show of "brain-washed" former government/Illuminati sex-slaves. If I had gotten, say, one of the side-show to say that herself, or somebody who credibly claimed to witness it, I may have included that in my piece -- unfortunately, the best I got were people who were told by other people...
BTW, I think Griffis was taken on in a book -- perhaps the book that debunked Warnke...? I'll have to look it up...
I still have great material regarding Gunderson and his McMartin Preschool "investigation". I kind of put off writing the 2nd Gunderson piece because I literally think that with 2 more people reading the 1st piece, I doubled my reads from the previous months.

Dale Griffis was an expert witness for the prosecution in a death penalty case. The defendant was 19 years old and was convicted and sentenced to lethal injection.

I'd like to hear whatever you have to say about Dale Griffis.
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