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Tags D.I.D. , Dr. Phil , false memory syndrome , Judy Byington , mind control , mpd , multiple personalities , recovered memory therapy , satanic ritual abuse

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Old 28th October 2012, 09:32 AM   #201
Strawberry
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please contact: Pennsylvania State Police Trooper Aungst 814-696-6100 You may remain anonymous when submitting information. Agency Case Number: G01-0002607
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Old 28th October 2012, 09:51 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
I'm suddenly unable to comment. How surprising.

Could some one of you in the US please contact the police dept in question and tell them that this person claims to be an eyewitness to Kathleen Shea's murder? The contact details are all up there, all you have to do is lift the phone.
Your comments are showing up. I'm glad you posted them. I added a bit more background with a quote from Byington's press release.

Here's the last one I see from you posted at 10:45;
Quote:
Anybody in ABC4 managed to lift the phone yet? please contact: Pennsylvania State Police Trooper Aungst 814-696-6100 You may remain anonymous when submitting information. Agency Case Number: G01-0002607 If you don't contact the police it means you don't believe this eyewitness account of Kathleen Shea's murder. And if you don't believe it, why the hell are publishing it, Ms Nelson?
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Old 28th October 2012, 09:53 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Altus View Post
Civil and rational debate always stands up to crazy.
http://www.abc4.com/content/news/slc...dutF2O1Bg.cspx
Oh, and facts, facts, are the best...JREFers are rattling facts at the story more quickly than Byington can probably read the comments. She's not used to this. She's used to walking into a "news" interview and having a "journalist" let her rattle her crazy stick unchecked...no matter how outlandish the claim. This happened, as Doug said, with NPR and major Utah newspapers...it's deja vu all over again at ABC-4. It's a 'bout time we all put an end to it.
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Old 28th October 2012, 09:56 AM   #204
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Sooo you're a Pastafarian eh Altus ? I suspected that all along


http://www.abc4.com/content/news/slc...spx?p=Comments
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Old 28th October 2012, 09:59 AM   #205
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Yeah, **** her.

Have any of you people contacted the police number in question?
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Old 28th October 2012, 10:04 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Roma View Post
Sooo you're a Pastafarian eh Altus ? I suspected that all along


http://www.abc4.com/content/news/slc...spx?p=Comments
Whoa, nice move on the Ross court case you just posted on the site. Touche, sister!
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Old 28th October 2012, 10:04 AM   #207
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What are we doing here, standing around worrying about the game against Nebraska?
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Old 28th October 2012, 10:10 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
What are we doing here, standing around worrying about the game against Nebraska?
Well, I'm not contacting the tropper because he has a lot of real witnesses to deal with. Putting him in contact with Hill and Byington might make them squirm (which would be fun to watch, actually), but it won't do anything to solve a 48 year old murder and it will be a waste of his time.
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Old 28th October 2012, 10:11 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Well, I'm not contacting the tropper because he has a lot of real witnesses to deal with. Putting him in contact with Hill and Byington might make them squirm (which would be fun to watch, actually), but it won't do anything to solve a 48 year old murder and it will be a waste of his time.
I understand, but that's not your call. You have information, it is your duty to report it. Let the police sort out the truth from the lies.
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Old 28th October 2012, 10:22 AM   #210
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Excuse me? All I have is knowledge of a fantasy prone pair of women who are using a 48 year old cold case to pad out their preposterous story. Have you contacted the trooper? I would suggest that you're wasting his time and limited resources if you did, and I would also add that that is one more reason why I shouldn't bother. He'll only need to be told once if there's even a shred of fact to this BS.
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Old 28th October 2012, 10:28 AM   #211
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I would contact the state trooper in a heartbeat, but I'm sitting here in Ireland with no credit in my phone. I understand your reaction, but its really not your call - this woman claims to be an eyewitness to a murder. Specifically the murder of Kathleen Shea.

The business of sorting out whether or not this woman is a liar, (even though we all know she is), is not ours. Its an open criminal investigation, somebody needs to contact the police.
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Old 28th October 2012, 10:51 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
I would contact the state trooper in a heartbeat, but I'm sitting here in Ireland with no credit in my phone. I understand your reaction, but its really not your call - this woman claims to be an eyewitness to a murder. Specifically the murder of Kathleen Shea.

The business of sorting out whether or not this woman is a liar, (even though we all know she is), is not ours. Its an open criminal investigation, somebody needs to contact the police.
Doug sent me a message...he is away from the forum for a bit, but is curious about the issue himself and plans to contact the police tomorrow. Probably a better day for it as this is Sunday and staffing is not peak...much more likely to reach the proper folk tomorrow.
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Old 28th October 2012, 11:14 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by douglas mesner View Post
It makes me angry because I genuinely see it as an insult to survivors of child abuse who they take the liberty of hijacking their cause to shield their conspiracy theories from critical scrutiny.
I can't claim to represent any group or person other than myself. However, I am a survivor of child abuse which did not include rituals, cult indoctrination, or large-scale conspiracies (or small ones, for that matter), and I want to thank you for your efforts, and let you know that I appreciate the sentiments behind them and agree with them.

I am not intensively involved in the CSA support community for two reasons: firstly, because it seems I do pretty good on my own; and secondly (but primarily), because I am simply unable to immerse myself in an environment where literally anything goes. I fully recognize that some of the most unbelievable things can and have been done to children; and that what survivors need most of all is to be believed. At the same time, there are some stories that I've heard which are simply incredible - and not always because the events themselves are "difficult to believe"; sometimes it's just the people that are difficult to believe. And a support group is simply not the place to be calling people out and questioning them - that doesn't really help anyone. Watching that kind of thing happen will cause others to withdraw and feel too unsafe to participate; the point of a support group is to support, not challenge.

But it's not even that so much - if it were only that, I could stomach it. Hey, I'm not psychic; just because somebody sounds unconvincing to me doesn't mean it didn't happen, right? The thing I cannot abide, is that the unwritten and understandable rule that we don't question other survivors' histories, has over time come to extend to not questioning their present-day observations, particularly when it comes to theorizing and therapeutic techniques. And therefore there is widespread uncritical acceptance in the CSA support community of things I'm not so sure actually work, and things which I'm reasonably certain don't work at all. Hypnotic regression therapy, the concept of "body memories", techniques identified by various initials; participants emphasize their "successes" and "breakthroughs" using these techniques and (through peer pressure) are not allowed to be questioned or second-guessed at the risk of the questioner being labeled anti-constructive or unsupportive. People claiming to have witnessed things like buses full of children being brought to military bases for top government officials to molest are permitted to make their claims in full basically without opposition. Even gentle suggestive hints that there's room for skepticism when it comes to certain methods or theories can get an acidic response. Some of them aren't above suggesting that you aren't really an abuse survivor.

Charlatans, crackpots, and the just plain misguided are pretty much pulling the CSA support community around by its sympathetic ear, and without initials or a whole bunch of already-existing reputational weight in that group, there's little hope for change from within.

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Old 28th October 2012, 11:17 AM   #214
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If I thought that the Penn State AG would prosecute people who try to exploit child abductions for fun and profit, I'd contact them in a second. I can't and won't speak for others, but I don't consider contacting the State Trooper to be a productive use of his (or her?) time.
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Old 28th October 2012, 11:40 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
If I thought that the Penn State AG would prosecute people who try to exploit child abductions for fun and profit, I'd contact them in a second. I can't and won't speak for others, but I don't consider contacting the State Trooper to be a productive use of his (or her?) time.
Can't speak for Doug, but I think it has more to do with debunking Byington. She keeps parading outlandish "facts" around which journalists accept, sadly. Having a statement from an authority than contradicts Judy's claim might stop this crappola from spreading like manure...and potentially sucking more folks in. She's using this publicity to promote her website where she offers $25 "therapy" sessions. That can be an beginning for a larger derailment of someone's narrative.

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Old 28th October 2012, 11:50 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
If I thought that the Penn State AG would prosecute people who try to exploit child abductions for fun and profit, I'd contact them in a second. I can't and won't speak for others, but I don't consider contacting the State Trooper to be a productive use of his (or her?) time.
I understand your concern here. However, I genuinely view Byington and the promotion of her book as a clear and present danger as well. I feel that in calling the Penn State AG. They have either heard Byington's "evidence", or they have not. If Byington never contacted them, and nor has any of the media outlets covering her story, I see this as valuable information in the public interest. If Byington HAS contacted them, they should have already come to a determination regarding the value of her "evidence", and that, I think, is of interest as well. Byington seems to throw out a lot of outrageous claims, and while it's her job to prove these claims, enough people seem to be paying attention to her uncritically that I think it's worth following up on them to establish for even the most think-headed that Byington is an unreliable source.
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Old 28th October 2012, 11:52 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
just because somebody sounds unconvincing to me doesn't mean it didn't happen, right? The thing I cannot abide, is that the unwritten and understandable rule that we don't question other survivors' histories, has over time come to extend to not questioning their present-day observations, particularly when it comes to theorizing and therapeutic techniques. And therefore there is widespread uncritical acceptance in the CSA support community of things I'm not so sure actually work, and things which I'm reasonably certain don't work at all. Hypnotic regression therapy, the concept of "body memories", techniques identified by various initials; participants emphasize their "successes" and "breakthroughs" using these techniques and (through peer pressure) are not allowed to be questioned or second-guessed at the risk of the questioner being labeled anti-constructive or unsupportive. People claiming to have witnessed things like buses full of children being brought to military bases for top government officials to molest are permitted to make their claims in full basically without opposition. Even gentle suggestive hints that there's room for skepticism when it comes to certain methods or theories can get an acidic response. Some of them aren't above suggesting that you aren't really an abuse survivor.
This is great, valuable insight. Thank you so much.
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Old 28th October 2012, 11:57 AM   #218
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Did you notice that the video of the report is now on the site? Get it while you can...
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Old 28th October 2012, 12:01 PM   #219
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I have noticed that Byington hasn't made a second appearance in the discussion. Seems she's going to hope the criticism dies down and readers don't wade into the comments section.
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Old 28th October 2012, 12:08 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
I have noticed that Byington hasn't made a second appearance in the discussion. Seems she's going to hope the criticism dies down and readers don't wade into the comments section.
Well, I'm glad she made her one appearance anyway. I like that people can see that in the face of very specific, very legitimate criticisms, she only answers by claiming us to be Satan-worshipers. How can that strike anybody as anything other than insane? Knowing that that's the quality of her character, how is it credible to believe that the ABC affiliate had no indication of what kind of person they were working with? Byington is completely comfortable, it seems, spouting off with the most delusional rubbish one can imagine. What amount of editing did it take to make the story only as delusional as it was? And even then, they actually DID report the divine intervention! It's simply ponderous...
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Old 28th October 2012, 12:09 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by douglas mesner View Post
Did you notice that the video of the report is now on the site? Get it while you can...
I'd say we should source up screen shots of the entire site. Why don't folks post what pages they want to take shot of? When "management" arrives Starbucks in hand tomorrow they might decide this is a tad much for their brand and pull it.

Besides, I just emailed the CBS TV affiliate about this snafu of a story

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Old 28th October 2012, 12:23 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
If I thought that the Penn State AG would prosecute people who try to exploit child abductions for fun and profit, I'd contact them in a second. I can't and won't speak for others, but I don't consider contacting the State Trooper to be a productive use of his (or her?) time.
I have to agree with this. I could see it backfiring, too. If a detective contacted Byington, she would no doubt play it straight and offer her full cooperation. Then she might use that contact to burnish her credentials, announcing to her fan base that the police believe her story and she is working with them to solve this case.
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Old 28th October 2012, 12:25 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by douglas mesner View Post
This is great, valuable insight. Thank you so much.
Just to make sure I didn't give people the wrong impression, it's not that CSA support communities are rackets that push pseudoscience and conspiracy theory. By themselves they are (or would be) helpful and fulfill their missions well. It's that the rules and operating procedures they must go by in order to make them effective and useful to the individuals they serve, also make them mostly defenseless to being taken advantage of by these charlatans and publicity-seekers, who use them as tools to spread their BS. To a survivor, there's probably little to nothing that feels worse than being disbelieved. Knowing this, who wants to be the one to publicly say "I don't believe you" to another survivor? And if someone has dealt with being disbelieved in the past and is feeling more confident or empowered now, why would they not react and want to jump to the defense of someone who's having to deal with that now?
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Old 28th October 2012, 12:52 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by douglas mesner View Post
Well, I'm glad she made her one appearance anyway. I like that people can see that in the face of very specific, very legitimate criticisms, she only answers by claiming us to be Satan-worshipers. How can that strike anybody as anything other than insane? Knowing that that's the quality of her character, how is it credible to believe that the ABC affiliate had no indication of what kind of person they were working with? Byington is completely comfortable, it seems, spouting off with the most delusional rubbish one can imagine. What amount of editing did it take to make the story only as delusional as it was? And even then, they actually DID report the divine intervention! It's simply ponderous...
I understand your frustration but my experience is that most people have at least a tacit irrational belief in the supernatural and in forces of good and evil. Unfortunately most people probably think the critics (like you and others in this thread) are the insane and unhinged ones. Although these silent observers aren't necessarily on Judy Byington's side they definitely aren't on your side. They would dismiss your non-supernaturalist non-good/evilist view as completely delusional. I suppose if you can reach one or a few it would be better than reaching none or not even trying and I admire your effort.
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Old 28th October 2012, 12:56 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
I have to agree with this. I could see it backfiring, too. If a detective contacted Byington, she would no doubt play it straight and offer her full cooperation. Then she might use that contact to burnish her credentials, announcing to her fan base that the police believe her story and she is working with them to solve this case.
Yes, I hadn't even thought of that. She is demonstrably willing to ignore reality and exploit half-truths. Even if the Trooper called her an idiot and scolded her for wasting his time, she'd simply claim that she had "consulted extensively for the PA State Police Satanic Cold Case Task Force".

[Church Lady Voice] Let's see, who do we know who is a master deceiver of this caliber? Hmmmm, I don't know, could it be SATAN!?!? [/Church Lady Voice]
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Old 28th October 2012, 01:03 PM   #226
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I was googling the "22Faces" and found it mentioned in a lot of blogs out there. I have posted in the comments section of one so far (the ones that have elaborate registration frustrate me, so i skip those). I'll find a few more to comment on today as well. I figure the fewer unanswered and unchallenged stories of "recovered" memories out there the better. You guys may wish to spend some time in the blog/news comments sections as well.
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Old 28th October 2012, 01:09 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Yes, I hadn't even thought of that. She is demonstrably willing to ignore reality and exploit half-truths. Even if the Trooper called her an idiot and scolded her for wasting his time, she'd simply claim that she had "consulted extensively for the PA State Police Satanic Cold Case Task Force".

[Church Lady Voice] Let's see, who do we know who is a master deceiver of this caliber? Hmmmm, I don't know, could it be SATAN!?!? [/Church Lady Voice]
Perhaps, but I think it could avoid all such problems to simply not misrepresent my position. That is to say, I contact them as a journalist, and with the question of whether or not Byington ever tried contacting them about these claims. Fact is, Byington claims to be consulting for ritual abuse investigations anyway -- we stand to learn that she isn't, or that she's not taken seriously by almost anybody in law enforcement. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that she calls them once a week hysterical that her missing sock was taken by Satan's minions... or not at all, and they are appalled to learn to the whole shameful story.
I don't know... I'm still interested in everybody's thoughts regarding calling the Penn AG...?
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Old 28th October 2012, 01:34 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by douglas mesner View Post
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that she calls them once a week hysterical that her missing sock was taken by Satan's minions...
Dammit, and I've thought it was the washer all the time. Sorry, you just need to chuckle every now and then when I find myself doing the Watusi in the theatre of the absurd
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Old 28th October 2012, 01:37 PM   #229
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The Examiner does a good review of the book. The title of the article is "When Therapists are Lunatics". Very apt, I think.



Quote:
Fortunately for Hill, however, nobody required of her that the heartbreaking story of traumatic abuse that she would “recall” need make any sense, and the fact that it doesn’t seems to have completely escaped her biographer, Judy Byington.
ETA Oh Snap! That's your review Doug!
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Old 28th October 2012, 01:40 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by douglas mesner View Post
Perhaps, but I think it could avoid all such problems to simply not misrepresent my position. That is to say, I contact them as a journalist, and with the question of whether or not Byington ever tried contacting them about these claims. Fact is, Byington claims to be consulting for ritual abuse investigations anyway -- we stand to learn that she isn't, or that she's not taken seriously by almost anybody in law enforcement. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that she calls them once a week hysterical that her missing sock was taken by Satan's minions... or not at all, and they are appalled to learn to the whole shameful story.
I don't know... I'm still interested in everybody's thoughts regarding calling the Penn AG...?
Contacting the trooper as a journalist certainly sounds like a good idea. I am curious as well. I think it would be good to know if she'd contacted him, and if she did, what his opinion of her story was.
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Old 28th October 2012, 01:47 PM   #231
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For chits and giggles, I sent this off to the CBS affiliate...who knows, might spark some investigative rivalry?
------------------------------------------------------

Just wanted to let you know there's quite a kerfuffle over at ABC-4. It appears Kimberly Nelson might have taken the low road on a Satanic Panic story, despite being told by an online journalist who posted in the comments that he contacted her with quite a few facts that the story was entirley bogus. The comment section is full of facts on the real story by various posters, which appears to be that Byington, an unlicensed therapist in Utah (a mere felony) has been convincing this mentally unstable woman of outlandish things for a number of years. Not familiar with the Utah market but I thought the Fox affiliate out there was Fox13? Anyway, I pass this along in case it's of interest. Supposedly Byington is doing the Dr. Phil show next week Oct 31...or so her Amazon page says. Hard to tell. Debunking it might make for good investigative journalism, not to mention a "real" news story from a real news organization. Might also get "unlicensed" therapists like Byington off the streets of Utah. Lots of facts in the comments...they take awhile to read through...but real interesting stuff in there.

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/slc...spx?p=Comments

Oh, and this might have some bearing on the story http://www.deseretnews.com/article/6...ty.html?pg=all
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Old 28th October 2012, 02:12 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by douglas mesner View Post
Perhaps, but I think it could avoid all such problems to simply not misrepresent my position. That is to say, I contact them as a journalist, and with the question of whether or not Byington ever tried contacting them about these claims. Fact is, Byington claims to be consulting for ritual abuse investigations anyway -- we stand to learn that she isn't, or that she's not taken seriously by almost anybody in law enforcement. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that she calls them once a week hysterical that her missing sock was taken by Satan's minions... or not at all, and they are appalled to learn to the whole shameful story.
I don't know... I'm still interested in everybody's thoughts regarding calling the Penn AG...?
Unfortunately, no one is sitting at a desk, ready to take a phone call, whose job it is to stifle crackpots.

For all you know, you might get someone who listens to Coast-to-Coast AM and is prepared to take Byington seriously... someone like former FBI agent Ted Gunderson.

I agree that people have a superstitious, irrational streak. They may embrace whatever narrative suits their fancy, regardless of the facts. I also understand that CSA groups will instinctively rally to the support of anyone who claims to be a victim.

But, the history of the ritual abuses cases of the 80s and 90s is that fact and reason eventually prevailed over instinct. And it wasn't officials who did that. It was lawyers, yes. But behind the lawyers was a volunteer army of tormented souls, ordinary people who could not abide the intransigent stupidity of these cases, who would not shut up or go away.
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Old 28th October 2012, 02:17 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Altus View Post
I'd say we should source up screen shots of the entire site. Why don't folks post what pages they want to take shot of? When "management" arrives Starbucks in hand tomorrow they might decide this is a tad much for their brand and pull it.

Besides, I just emailed the CBS TV affiliate about this snafu of a story
Welp...it happened a little earlier. Gone baby, gone. Anyone else get "comments"? And this is my fiftieth post...how appropriate. I get to bring out the rainbow unicorn chittin' skittles. What a wild, fun ride it's been.
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Old 28th October 2012, 02:23 PM   #234
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I've got a blank page to the abc news link now , what have you guys done
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Old 28th October 2012, 02:30 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Roma View Post
I've got a blank page to the abc news link now , what have you guys done
It was Satan...
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Old 28th October 2012, 02:38 PM   #236
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Story's still there...comments are kaput. It was all a matter of time.
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Old 28th October 2012, 02:43 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Altus View Post
Story's still there...comments are kaput. It was all a matter of time.
Yep, I can see the story, but no comments. Damn, I hadn't read Byington's foray into Satan's den.
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Old 28th October 2012, 02:46 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Yep, I can see the story, but no comments. Damn, I hadn't read Byington's foray into Satan's den.
You just missed it by minutes. We had quite the fact-fest going on. On a positve note, look at my avatar...tah dah.
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Old 28th October 2012, 02:46 PM   #239
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At least Amazon comments should stay up.

So Stormy has posted a new one, and I learned a new word: iatrogenic (doctor-induced).

http://www.amazon.com/review/R2ATP6W...scussionBoards
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Last edited by Orphia Nay; 28th October 2012 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 28th October 2012, 02:46 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post

ETA Oh Snap! That's your review Doug!
Yeah, I wrote that review and it wasn't very widely read. Then I used all of those points and some new ones that had come up in the interim to write the open letter to Dr. Phil and THAT has gotten a massive amount of hits. That's the power of celebrity, I guess. That could be the silver-lining in all this: that Byington over-steps into the mainstream with her ridiculous story to the point that it can't be ignored, and the flood of criticism drags down the credibility of everybody who touched it. That's a hopeful best case scenario anyway.
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