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Tags alternate history , Nazi Germany history , World War II history

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Old 23rd October 2012, 03:25 PM   #81
StankApe
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Originally Posted by Mikeys View Post
Why would the economy collapse? In what way, with what consequences? Reparations had been cancelled, grain was flowing from the SU at bargain rates, the army was strong to negotiate deals. Who were the creditors?
Because most of their previous 6 million unemployed had been given state jobs creating their war machine. If no war ensued, they would have either been draining the coffers as redundant employees or the states unemployment rate would have gone back to where it was before.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 03:43 PM   #82
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If the war had waited until Donitz had his full compliment of submarines, we would all be singing "Deutschland Uber Alles"
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Old 23rd October 2012, 03:46 PM   #83
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hence the phrase " Now you've Donitz!!"
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Old 23rd October 2012, 03:47 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
But were they not deterred by the mauling they received at Soviet hands in 1939, in the undeclared Soviet-Japanese war in and around Mongolia?
That's one of the reasons they finally decided to go South, but there were still folks calling for an all out effort in the Northern Area even then. The Japanese were often victim's of "count the wins, ignore the losses" syndrome.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 03:49 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Mikeys View Post
The invasion of China started in 1937, the actual start of the 2 world war. I don't think Siberia was known for resources at the time, not much discovered yet. Oil fields were far away across Asia. Japanese combat armour was designed for the Pacific. Post colonial Japanese new order in south east Asia was what the Japanese were after.
I suggest you read the Japanese Monographs. Interesting reading.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 10:35 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
If the war had waited until Donitz had his full compliment of submarines, we would all be singing "Deutschland Uber Alles"

If the U-boats are more successful early on, the Allies then respond with countermeasures. More effort is put into developing radar and HF/DF to get it into service sooner and on more ships; more Liberators are diverted from other roles and put into long-range Atlantic patrols to close the "black gap"; escort carriers are pushed into service faster; destroyer, frigate, and corvette construction is given priority over other classes of warship. Given the vast amount of tonnage constructed of the mass-produced Liberty ships (some 38 million tons, or more than five times the total amount of merchant ship tonnage with which the U.S. entered the war), I'm not sure the Atlantic could ever have been closed long enough to starve Britain into submission.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 10:39 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
If the U-boats are more successful early on, the Allies then respond with countermeasures. More effort is put into developing radar and HF/DF to get it into service sooner and on more ships; more Liberators are diverted from other roles and put into long-range Atlantic patrols to close the "black gap"; escort carriers are pushed into service faster; destroyer, frigate, and corvette construction is given priority over other classes of warship. Given the vast amount of tonnage constructed of the mass-produced Liberty ships (some 38 million tons, or more than five times the total amount of merchant ship tonnage with which the U.S. entered the war), I'm not sure the Atlantic could ever have been closed long enough to starve Britain into submission.
Didn't Churchill write that capitulation was not far off at the worst of the U-boat war?
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Old 23rd October 2012, 10:53 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
Didn't Churchill write that capitulation was not far off at the worst of the U-boat war?

From what I recall, things were at times worrying, but in terms of the amount of tonnage that needed to be sunk for a given period of time in order to have the desired effect, the U-boats never really came all that close to achieving that figure. The U-boats also paid a heavy price for the success they did have.

Now, if the Type XXI enters service sooner and in significant numbers, then the Allies get a much tougher time. But the Type XXI only comes about because of the losses suffered by the conventional Type VII and IX.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 11:22 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Zowert View Post
I would like some opinions from everyone that knows a lot about the Second World War.

There has always been the question of 'what if' Germany won World War Two? When I first thought about this, I asked myself, "Well could Germany have won? Realistically.." The more I get to thinking about it, I believe Hitler could have won if he had done a few things differently.

1. Adolt Hitler should have let his generals call the shots. Let them mobilize troops when and where they needed them, as well as allow the Wermacht to retreat and regroup if need be.

2. Hitler should have never gotten himself into a war on two fronts. He actually had a war on three fronts during the height of the war; West Europe, East Europe/Russia and the Middle East/North Africa. He spared Britain and turned to the East, leaving the Western front vulnerable to an allied invasion.

Here is what I think Hitler should have done, if he were going to have any chance at conquering Europe, Russia and part of Africa. I would like to hear your battle plan for Germany too, what you think they should have done to win the war...

Hitler should have gone East first. I don't think France or Britain would have bothered intervening if Germany and the Soviet Union went to war. Especially if Hitler could get Italy and Japan to attack Russia with him. I think the Japanese would be willing to attack Russia from the Pacific, if the Germans and Italians invaded the Soviet union through Europe.

Hitler could have waited until the until the Spring of 1940, to avoid getting stuck in a Russian winter. By the Wermacht and Luftwaffe could have built up a massive force. Italy could send troops to Germany, where they would disguise the movements of Italy and Germany doing "war games". It may raise a red flag to the Soviets but if Italy could mobilize a few hundred thousand men in a week, there would be no real time for the Soviet Union to react.

Once 5 million German and Italian troops are in country, Japan could launch a major assault on Russia from the Pacific. Drawing the Red Army to the opposite side of the country. After about a week, most of the Soviets would be concentrated on the far East side of Russia and the largest land invasion in the history of mankind could take place. It would only take a day to roll through Poland and into the Soviet Union. The Luftwaffe could bomb Russian bases, factories and transportation routes, day and night. Relentless bombing.

If executed well enough, I don't see how the Soviets could keep from collapsing and losing the war by the end of summer 1940. Unless the Soviets got some help, but who would come to their rescue? Once the USSR is conquered, Hitler could move his forces back and strike whatever kind of deal the Japanese would like. I'm sure they would ask for assistance in a future war against the United States, where Hitler could say, "Wait until I conquer Europe. Then we will gang up on the Americans. I'll attack on the East coast U.S. and you can take them on the West."

With the Soviet Union out of the picture first, France and Britain would be in DEEP trouble. Unless they could get the United States involved. If the U.S. stays out of it, then Hitler could roll right through the French. The British would be a little tougher, but they'd eventually lose once Hitler could neutralize the British Navy and find a way across the English channel. Hitler could also re-arm Soviet POWs and send them to the front lines.

Once Europe is taken, the only thing left is the United States (and Canada) but Canada would have been fighting in Europe already, aiding the U.K. So its likely most of the Canadian military would have been destroyed by this time. If the U.S. had not gotten involved early, or at least started a massive military build-up once Hitler went after France and Britain. It's likely the Germans, Japanese and Italians could take the United States.

I know this plan seems unlikely, as one simple difference could change the entire outcome. Like France and Britain aiding the Soviet Union before they could be defeated. Or the United States getting involved in Europe before Hitler could take France, etc.

For the record, i'm not a Hitler lover. I think the guy was a complete nutjob and aside from Stalin, the most evil man in history. Anyway, how do you think Nazi Germany could have successfully conquered Europe or even the entire world? If you think it was possible, even if the odds were very slim..?
That only works if you assume Poland doesn't exist.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 11:25 PM   #90
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[opinion on]

The biggest thing Hitler could have done to give himself a chance to win the war would have been to keep the United States out of it. The USA had an incredibly vast industrial capacity that Germany had no hope of damaging. It might take six months or a year to tool up for full wartime production, but once that was done the USA could keep cranking out those ships and planes and tanks and guns and ammunition indefinitely. Germany simply could not win a war of attrition with the USA. IMO, they couldn't have won a war of attrition with the Soviets, either, but competent generalship (which Hitler had but did not heed) would have extended the war considerably and possibly enabled Germany to obtain a favorable peace settlement.

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Old 23rd October 2012, 11:37 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Mikeys View Post
Why would the economy collapse? In what way, with what consequences? Reparations had been cancelled, grain was flowing from the SU at bargain rates, the army was strong to negotiate deals. Who were the creditors?
The German economy was well into the hole before the start of the war. Capital works like the famed autobahns were virtually built with slave labor with over a 1000 construction and transport companies going bankrupt because they could not get paid for their work
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Old 23rd October 2012, 11:41 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
If the war had waited until Donitz had his full compliment of submarines, we would all be singing "Deutschland Uber Alles"
Would never have happened. To many resources were going into the wrong end of plan Z
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:50 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
If the war had waited until Donitz had his full compliment of submarines, we would all be singing "Deutschland Uber Alles"
Not the tired old argument that the Germans would have made everyone speak German...
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Old 24th October 2012, 01:57 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Simon666 View Post
Not the tired old argument that the Germans would have made everyone speak German...
We'd be singing it in English.

You know. To prove how "multicultural" us Nazis are.
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Old 24th October 2012, 01:58 AM   #95
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Actually I wouldn't be singing it, but those who were still around would be.

Last edited by Abdul Alhazred; 24th October 2012 at 02:00 AM.
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Old 24th October 2012, 02:26 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred View Post
Actually I wouldn't be singing it, but those who were still around would be.
They planned to exterminate the mad Arabs too, Abdul? I'm starting to like the Nazis more and more...

Last edited by Natan; 24th October 2012 at 02:28 AM.
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Old 24th October 2012, 03:16 AM   #97
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Hitler started a global conflict. There was no way he was going to win it. Ever. If he had kept it to a European conflict then maybe* things would have turned out differently. Everything after France was a day late and a dollar short.

* Even that's a big maybe and I doubt that it could ever have been contained to Europe anyway.

Also, Hitler was a nut.
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Old 24th October 2012, 03:33 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
All the Nazis had to do was stop being Nazis during the invasion of the Soviet Union. If they had painted it as a liberation of the oppressed, Germany could have gained huge support from the Ukraine and Belorussians. Instead their treatment of the local, managed to make them look worse than the Soviet leadership
Ding, ding, ding!

We have a winner!

Apart from numerous strategic mistakes, being a right-wing autocratic regime of an acceptable variety would have seriously decreased the will to fight them.

And mind you: most people found Mussolini acceptable.
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Old 24th October 2012, 04:38 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Simon666 View Post
They planned to exterminate the mad Arabs too, Abdul? I'm starting to like the Nazis more and more...
As if that was possible.
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Old 24th October 2012, 04:38 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
They probably could have "won" had they stopped before invading Russia.
Sorry, but I doubt that.

After all, Stalin was hoping that Hitler would get terribly bogged down in a war with Western Europe so that both sides would be so exhausted that Stalin could easily move in and take the whole pie for himself.

So, Germany would still loose the war, just in a different way.
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Old 24th October 2012, 05:04 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
They also could have gone after the radar stations a little harder. They did bomb a couple and didn't really see anything different, so they were never sure exactly how valuable the installations where
Yes, the failure of the German Electronic Reconnaissance efforts, including the flight of the Graf Zeppelin II, hurt them badly.

Originally Posted by Ian View Post
That's an important factor, Sceptic-PK. Your point is central to how das Uranverein fell way behind the Manhattan Project. I recently published my thesis on how this happened, despite the fact that Germany had been a major leader in physics since the nineteenth century, and Randi is cited in the thesis (because of nationalistic thinking that divided scientists based on a few pages he gave me on his upcoming book about how Blondlot allowed this to get in the way of real science).

Philipp Lenard and Johannes Stark, both Nobel prize winners in physics, argued that scientists in Germany should be doing "German physics" instead of "Jewish physics". These phrases make no sense. Electrons are electrons. However, it led to the purge of Jewish scientists in Germany in 1933, and Schrödinger was among physicists in Germany who were not Jewish but resigned in protest. This badly hurt the Nazis' capacity to draw from talent, and many of those scientists worked for the Allies.
There was a recent discussion of the German/Allied projects; the Germans didn't have the people, the resources or the political will to pursue nuclear research properly.

Originally Posted by DDWW View Post
Stop when they “liberated” Poland. Sign peace treaty with England, France.

Scrap Bismarck & Tirpitz, build more long range subs.

Develop 4 engine long range bomber. Develop ME 262, & V-rockets (“for weather research”) Continue atom bomb program.

Go for France & England in 1944+/-. Invade France. Nuke an English coastal town. Negotiate with Ireland & Scotland to stay out of war. Do not invade Russia. Let Stalin purge their army some more. Sign treaty/keep peace with Russia & USA and open trade talks. Germany needs oil, Russia needs tractors.

Just my opinion.
There is no way Germany could have afforded this. Plus they couldn't have developed nuclear weapons by 1944.
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Old 24th October 2012, 05:07 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
If the war had waited until Donitz had his full compliment of submarines, we would all be singing "Deutschland Uber Alles"
Sorry, but I am not so sure about that.

After all, it would have taken Germany about two years (and possibly longer) to complete its submarine fleet and during that time England and the USA would have been building anti-submarine aircraft and ships.

Also, German submarines and torpedos were a bit on the sub-par side when the war started (the German subs did not have Radar and their torpedos often malfunctioned), therefore I doubt that additional submarines would have created a German victory.
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Old 24th October 2012, 05:09 AM   #103
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A realistic strategy meeting would have looked like this.

Eddie: 'Welcome mein Fuhrer, take a seat. Before Clint Eastwood starts yelling at it haha.'
Hitler: 'I'm sorry, didn't get that.'
Eddie: 'Never mind. It's an inside joke from the future. What do I have here?'
Hitler: 'A map of the world?'
Eddie: 'That's right, a map of the world. Very astute, if I may say so. Now what is this big purple spot on the top right?'
Hitler: 'The USSR?'
Eddie: 'Correctemundo! That would be the ol' USSR.'
Hitler: 'I knew I had that right'.
Eddie: 'And looking at that spot, would you classify it as small, medium sized or big? Answer immediately, try not to over-think it.'
Hitler: 'Well, I'd say it's actually frigging huge.'
Eddie: 'An apt description.'
Hitler: 'Thank you.'
Eddie: 'Here's a fascinating factoid; a large part of that frigging huge country is actually 30 degrees Celsius below zero...'
Hitler: 'Really? That's incredibly cold.'
Eddie: '...in summer.'
Hitler: 'But it's full of Russians, right?'
Eddie: 'You say that like it's a good thing.'
Hitler: 'Well, it will no longer be full of Russians when I'm finished with it haha.'
Eddie; I don't know man, it's big, it's cold, it's full of Russians.'
Hitler: 'Finland kicked their ass. Clearly the lesson we should learn from this is that the Russian army is weak.'
Eddie: 'Or that invading a cold country in summer uniform is a bad idea, especially if it's defended by motivated army'.

Not that he would have listened.
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Old 24th October 2012, 06:35 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
A realistic strategy meeting would have looked like this.

Eddie: 'Welcome mein Fuhrer, take a seat. Before Clint Eastwood starts yelling at it haha.'
Hitler: 'I'm sorry, didn't get that.'
Eddie: 'Never mind. It's an inside joke from the future. What do I have here?'
Hitler: 'A map of the world?'
Eddie: 'That's right, a map of the world. Very astute, if I may say so. Now what is this big purple spot on the top right?'
Hitler: 'The USSR?'
Eddie: 'Correctemundo! That would be the ol' USSR.'
Hitler: 'I knew I had that right'.
Eddie: 'And looking at that spot, would you classify it as small, medium sized or big? Answer immediately, try not to over-think it.'
Hitler: 'Well, I'd say it's actually frigging huge.'
Eddie: 'An apt description.'
Hitler: 'Thank you.'
Eddie: 'Here's a fascinating factoid; a large part of that frigging huge country is actually 30 degrees Celsius below zero...'
Hitler: 'Really? That's incredibly cold.'
Eddie: '...in summer.'
Hitler: 'But it's full of Russians, right?'
Eddie: 'You say that like it's a good thing.'
Hitler: 'Well, it will no longer be full of Russians when I'm finished with it haha.'
Eddie; I don't know man, it's big, it's cold, it's full of Russians.'
Hitler: 'Finland kicked their ass. Clearly the lesson we should learn from this is that the Russian army is weak.'
Eddie: 'Or that invading a cold country in summer uniform is a bad idea, especially if it's defended by motivated army'.

Not that he would have listened.
I think this was an episode of one of those dreadful 50's/60's American schmaltzy comedies, either I Dream of Genie or Bewitched in which Larry Hagman goes back in time to plead with Napoleon not to invade Russia.

Of course, if you had seen that episode you would know that when you left and went back to the future, Hitler would have turned to Herman Goring and said something like,

Hitler: "I just had the weirdest conversation with some madman from the future who kept blathering on about an invasion of Russia. Who would dream of such a thing? That's the type of thing only a madman might do and...hey...wait a minute, I've got a plan which is so crazy no one would ever believe I would do it. Even Stalin, who's as paranoid as a 9/11 Truther, would never suspect it so it might just work!"

Goring: "9/11 Truther?"

Hitler: "Err...nevermind. In-joke from the future."
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Old 24th October 2012, 06:55 AM   #105
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You really need to define "victory" down for this to work.

The problem, as many have pointed out, is that the Nazi economy is built on a house of cards. Fundamental issues of hyper inflation are going to come back to bite Hitler in the ass. The recovery they achieved was based on public employment dedicated to the war effort and public works. You can't keep that up for very long.

Let's also do some hand waving and say that Hitler dedicates himself only to winning in Eastern Europe and for some reason Western Europe and the United States decide to just sit back and let this happen. Let's also assume that Germany can defeat the USSR. (All of these are pretty big assumptions and may not even be possible.)

So now it's 1943. The United States is involved in a war with Japan. France and England are cooling their heels, and Hitler has dominion over all of Eastern Europe. The problem Hitler now faces is that every single unit you have is going to have to be dedicated to keeping down insurrection in your conquered territory. Imagine a Vietnam of Afghanistan scenario times a thousand. No matter how bad the Soviets were, there's no puppet regime to can put in place that would be able to maintain order.

"Ah" you say "but with those extra few years you can build your first atomic bomb! Nazis win!"

Well, no.

So it's now 1947. Europe has decided to stay out of the war and is enjoying watching Hitler, with his crumbling economy and demoralized army, fall on his face. Hitler now faces discontent at home, disaster abroad. All of a sudden, Hitler announces on the radio that he has developed a super weapon. He tests this weapon on a city in the Ukraine. The world takes notice.

This would not lead to the surrender of Europe or the United States. Atomic weapons are, at this point, merely tactical weapons, not strategic. Europe has considerably more manpower, and their armies are intact. Over the past seven years, the Western world has created a strong deterrent should Germany turn her sights on her. Hitler faces a bind. He can't use his new bombs, unless he wants an unstoppable army driving right into Berlin within a matter of months. He can't sit there waiting, because now every nation on earth is developing their own atomic bombs. It's a new cold war.

How long can this go on? By 1950, Hitler is overthrown by his own people. Peace breaks out as Germany retreats to it's own borders, and eventually the government collapses like the Soviet Union would in our own time line.

This is the best case scenario. This is as close as you can get to Hitler "winning" the war. Another 5 years of existence, and Germany humbled at the end.
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Old 24th October 2012, 07:04 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Gbob View Post
The problem Hitler now faces is that every single unit you have is going to have to be dedicated to keeping down insurrection in your conquered territory.
Like in France? French resistance is greatly exaggerated. Imagine in the Soviet Union, with a little better treatment for the local populace as some German leaders advocated, the Germans could have slept tight not worrying about any insurrections. It's not THAT difficult to do a lot better than Stalin.
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Old 24th October 2012, 07:08 AM   #107
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Sorry for the long post, but here is my opinion on the subject ...

I think that for Germany to have won World War II a number of things would have to occur:

First, Germany should have switched to a war economy much sooner. Hitler avoided doing so in order to maintain his popular support.

Second, Germany should have kept researching, developing, and deploying advanced weapons. Like its jets, rockets, and nuclear programs ; Hitler avoided doing so since such things drained resources from other things that he wanted to develop, plus Hitler often had a real distrust of “Jewish physics”.

Third, Germany should have done much more to go to a mechanized army. Hitler wanted to do more in this direction, but that was very expensive, hence Germany was still using quite a few horses at the start, middle, and end of the war.

Fourth, Germany had waaay too much faith in its cryptology technology even though better systems were available at that time. By the end of the war, the British were able to decrypt German messages as fast, or even faster, than the Germans could.

Fifth, Germany need much better intelligence and planning regarding their invasion of the Soviet Union. Problems with weather, roads, railroads, ignorance about Soviet weapons, combined with the vast distances that needed to be covered combined to make the Eastern Front much more difficult than anyone in Germany ever expected.

Sixth, and what I feel is most important, is that for Germany to have won World War II, then Germany would have had to find some way to keep the Allies from joining forces. And while at first, Hitler correctly read the international situation which showed that no nation wanted to fight another war and that most nations had a great distrust of one another; however numerous and violent dangers coming from the Axis powers served quite well to form an anti-Axis alliance that was far more powerful than anything that Germany could do.

Further, please keep in mind that at the time Hitler was re-building the German military, other nations were re-building their military forces as well therefore Hitler realized that if he was going to win, then he would have to act before the militaries of other nations were more fully developed. So, Hitler would have to find a way to re-build his own military without causing the other nations to do likewise, which was very unlikely.

Therefore, I really do not think that Germany ever had much of a chance of winning World War II.
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Old 24th October 2012, 07:11 AM   #108
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The problem with occupation is that eventually the resistance becomes pretty good at what they do. The French resistance became more and more effective as they gained experience. Eastern Europe, under five years of Nazi occupation would be a nightmare. IEDS and suicide bombers would have become effective tools for occupied Asia. Given the nature of the Nazis, this would have led to greater and greater reprisals, and thus greater resistance.

Also, France was treated with kid gloves (relatively, of course. We're still talking Nazis here.). Hitler was far worse in Eastern Europe. Issues of rebellion was have been much more difficult.
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Old 24th October 2012, 07:35 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Gbob View Post

So now it's 1943. The United States is involved in a war with Japan. France and England are cooling their heels, and Hitler has dominion over all of Eastern Europe. The problem Hitler now faces is that every single unit you have is going to have to be dedicated to keeping down insurrection in your conquered territory. Imagine a Vietnam of Afghanistan scenario times a thousand. No matter how bad the Soviets were, there's no puppet regime to can put in place that would be able to maintain order.
Quoted for truth.

Even without mechanised units or planes, the Soviets could have created the worst asymmetrical warfare nightmare in world history.

And even if the Nazi's had been smart enough to court the local populations by being less brutal then Stalin (by not humiliating and killing them, duh!), this guerilla war could be directed from outside the occupied territory.

Looooooong vulnerable supply lines, vast stretches of land to hide in.
Mines, roadside bombs and sniper rifles would have had a huge impact. and it would never stop.
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Old 24th October 2012, 07:57 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Simon666 View Post
They planned to exterminate the mad Arabs too, Abdul? I'm starting to like the Nazis more and more...
What about the sane Arabs? As far as mad is concerned, Hitler exterminated all sorts of mad people, including flaxen-haired Aryan maidens. Gas vans were first employed, as far as I have read, to facilitate this enterprise. But don't let me spoil your touching love for Nazidom.
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Old 24th October 2012, 08:13 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Yes, the failure of the German Electronic Reconnaissance efforts, including the flight of the Graf Zeppelin II, hurt them badly.


There was a recent discussion of the German/Allied projects; the Germans didn't have the people, the resources or the political will to pursue nuclear research properly.


There is no way Germany could have afforded this. Plus they couldn't have developed nuclear weapons by 1944.

That is why I wrote +/- after 1944. The 4 engine bomber is developed as a passenger/transport plane as they did with the previous 2 engine HE111.

BTW: I do like the idea that Germany declares war on Japan and helps the USA. In return Germany gets access to oil and Pacific bases.

Last edited by DDWW; 24th October 2012 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 24th October 2012, 08:16 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Quoted for truth.

Even without mechanised units or planes, the Soviets could have created the worst asymmetrical warfare nightmare in world history.

And even if the Nazi's had been smart enough to court the local populations by being less brutal then Stalin (by not humiliating and killing them, duh!), this guerilla war could be directed from outside the occupied territory.

Looooooong vulnerable supply lines, vast stretches of land to hide in.
Mines, roadside bombs and sniper rifles would have had a huge impact. and it would never stop.
I have read accounts of Soviets doing just that. I have read of Germans occupying villages and EVERY building had booby traps wired up. The Partisan story in Russia is far less well known because Stalin had them shot at the end of the war
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Old 24th October 2012, 08:19 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by DDWW View Post
Stop when they “liberated” Poland. Sign peace treaty with England, France.

Scrap Bismarck & Tirpitz, build more long range subs.

Develop 4 engine long range bomber. Develop ME 262, & V-rockets (“for weather research”) Continue atom bomb program.

Go for France & England in 1944+/-. Invade France. Nuke an English coastal town. Negotiate with Ireland & Scotland to stay out of war. Do not invade Russia. Let Stalin purge their army some more. Sign treaty/keep peace with Russia & USA and open trade talks. Germany needs oil, Russia needs tractors.

Just my opinion.
How do you propose negotiating with Scotland in 1944?
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Old 24th October 2012, 08:25 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
How do you propose negotiating with Scotland in 1944?
Rudolph the red nosed Nazi never found the answer to that question lol
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Old 24th October 2012, 08:28 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
Rudolph the red nosed Nazi never found the answer to that question lol
What are you going to do in that situation? Walk into Westminster and say, will everyone from Carlisle or further south please leave, I want to negotiate with Scotland? Because that's the closest thing to a Scottish government you'll be able to find.
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Old 24th October 2012, 08:43 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Quote:
They probably could have "won" had they stopped before invading Russia.
Sorry, but I doubt that.

After all, Stalin was hoping that Hitler would get terribly bogged down in a war with Western Europe so that both sides would be so exhausted that Stalin could easily move in and take the whole pie for himself.

So, Germany would still loose the war, just in a different way.
It might have been likely that Stalin would have attacked Germany if Hitler hadn't moved first with Barbarossa.

However, had that happened, Russia might not have been as effective:
- Germany wouldn't have wasted as many troops as they did during the invasion, with some of their tactical mistakes. With more men they could put up a better resistance
- They could have spend more time and resources shoring up their defenses and supply lines.
- Although Russia was a dictatorship, its people might not have been as motivated to fight a war of pure aggression. (When gernany invaded, Russia could at least use propaganda to encourage people to "fight for the homeland". Telling them to "go die in a foreign country we decided to pick a fight with" might not be as useful.)

With those factors, its possible that any Russian attack would have been halted.
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Old 24th October 2012, 09:01 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by DDWW View Post
That is why I wrote +/- after 1944. The 4 engine bomber is developed as a passenger/transport plane as they did with the previous 2 engine HE111.

BTW: I do like the idea that Germany declares war on Japan and helps the USA. In return Germany gets access to oil and Pacific bases.
Except the 4 engine bomber was against their doctrine for the Luftwaffe, which was as tactical support arm for the army, not a strategic bombing force. German combat doctrine called for swift decisive strikes, they simply couldn't sustain long drawn out campaigns and they knew it. They did not envision a war with Britain, certainly not a long drawn out affair anyway where they would need heavy bombers. They certainly didn't forsee the Soviets uprooting and relocating entire industries beyond thee reach of their medium bombers.

The Germans did in fact start work on heavy bombers before the war but they faced all sorts of problems, see the He-177 article for more details.

As for Germany declaring war on Japan, the problems with that idea are legion, starting with the fact that the US was already supplying Germany's enemies in Europe, that Germany had applied pressure to Vichy France to grant bases to Japan in Indo-China, that Germany had nothing to offer in the Pacific, and of course that Roosevelt regarded Germany as a far greater threat than Japan. And as I say that's just a sample of the reasons why its a fantasy.
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Old 24th October 2012, 09:09 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by DDWW View Post
That is why I wrote +/- after 1944. The 4 engine bomber is developed as a passenger/transport plane as they did with the previous 2 engine HE111.

BTW: I do like the idea that Germany declares war on Japan and helps the USA. In return Germany gets access to oil and Pacific bases.
Germany could not have developed nuclear weapons by 1944. The lacked the scientists, engineers, technicians, heavy water, uranium and countless outher resources. Take a look at the resources that were used by the Manhattan Project.
Germany under the historical Hitler (or anyone close) could not have declared war on Japan.
German attempts to develop large bombers were uniformly a failure, especially true for something that could have carried a fission bomb of 1940s vintage.

Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
How do you propose negotiating with Scotland in 1944?
Plus Ireland was (mostly) neutral.
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Old 24th October 2012, 10:41 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Germany could not have developed nuclear weapons by 1944. The lacked the scientists, engineers, technicians, heavy water, uranium and countless outher resources. Take a look at the resources that were used by the Manhattan Project.
Germany under the historical Hitler (or anyone close) could not have declared war on Japan.
German attempts to develop large bombers were uniformly a failure, especially true for something that could have carried a fission bomb of 1940s vintage.


Plus Ireland was (mostly) neutral.
Remember these are all what would they need to do or what would have to occur, however improbable, not if they stay with present doctrine or historical mindset.

Or we can change the original question to: How can they win if nothing is different than what historically happened….(they don’t?).
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Old 24th October 2012, 10:53 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Simon666 View Post
Like in France? French resistance is greatly exaggerated. Imagine in the Soviet Union, with a little better treatment for the local populace as some German leaders advocated, the Germans could have slept tight not worrying about any insurrections. It's not THAT difficult to do a lot better than Stalin.
It is if you decide to murder the largest concentration of Jews in the world, and reduce the other peoples in the area to the status of slaves. Hitler wanted to plunder and exploit people, settle conquered land with ethnic German imperialist overlords, and turn the locals into helots. And you suggest a "little" better treatment ... ! A "lot" better wouldn't have been enough.
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