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Old 3rd November 2012, 07:23 AM   #121
joesixpack
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Originally Posted by Duffy Moon View Post


I did wonder though - how many people go for a first-time Reiki sesh and are told "Your chakras are in tip-top condition, no need for a follow-up treatment"?


Sorry for the slight derail.
Of course this never happens. The world is so polluted and full of "toxins" that everyone's chakras are blocked. It's amazing that we've been able to double our life expectancies over the last couple of centuries without unblocking our chakras.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 08:21 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Of course this never happens. The world is so polluted and full of "toxins" that everyone's chakras are blocked. It's amazing that we've been able to double our life expectancies over the last couple of centuries without unblocking our chakras.
I have no idea if this is legit but last week I took an online Chakra "test" by answering a bunch of questions. Every single Chakra was in perfect condition. And her "job" is to improve Chakras. I have no idea what this is all about but I got an A+. LOL!!!
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Old 3rd November 2012, 08:26 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
When you have a charge of static electricity from walking with your feet on carpeting, then touch something or someone with your finger, what happens? Does that sound stupid too?
That hurts !!! I get that in the grocery store and I hate it!!
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Old 3rd November 2012, 08:27 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Aha, so you were playing the congas.

My hands feel all sort of tingly after a bit of playing, so I see what you may have been experiencing.
What is a conga? Drums of some sort?
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Old 3rd November 2012, 08:29 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by resume View Post
wasn't this person, was it?
http://www.solaya.net/index.html
yes. That is absolutely the woman i met. Wooooow.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 09:40 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Deranged View Post
What is a conga? Drums of some sort?
Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conga

They're played on the pier and in the square, or used to be.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 12:15 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Deranged View Post
o m g Resume . YES, THAT IS HER !! I'M SHOCKED RIGHT NOW!! Pardon the pun. Great work. I am really excited. At first I thought, that looks like her except she's a blonde. But when I saw MALLORY SQUARE I knew it. Wow!!!
Originally Posted by Deranged View Post
yes. That is absolutely the woman i met. Wooooow.
Why have you responded to the same post twice? You've done it a few times now.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 02:20 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Deranged View Post
o m g Resume . YES, THAT IS HER !! I'M SHOCKED RIGHT NOW!! Pardon the pun. Great work. I am really excited. At first I thought, that looks like her except she's a blonde. But when I saw MALLORY SQUARE I knew it. Wow!!!
Take a close read of the website then tell me if you're buying anything that person is selling.
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Old 4th November 2012, 02:49 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Deranged View Post
What is a conga? Drums of some sort?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conga


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conga_line

ETA: Looks like I was beaten to the punch. Conga lines are more fun for a lot of people, though.
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Old 4th November 2012, 04:15 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Wasn't this person, was it?
http://www.solaya.net/index.html
Oh, well done, indeed.
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Old 5th November 2012, 01:49 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
That said, I would still suggest that the problem you're speaking of rests soundly with the assumptions that the systems in questions are based upon rather with either an issue with the understandability of the definition or its internal coherence.
And I would suggest that the problem is that you misuse the word "energy" in the same way as these other "systems".

Energy can be objectively measured, if it can't be objectively measured, it aint energy so stop calling it that.
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Old 5th November 2012, 02:51 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
And I would suggest that the problem is that you misuse the word "energy" in the same way as these other "systems".

Energy can be objectively measured, if it can't be objectively measured, it aint energy so stop calling it that.
Heh. I'm merely using common usage. A form of common usage that I already provided a link describing. Don't like it? I'd suggest taking it up with a much different audience.
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Old 5th November 2012, 04:03 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Heh. I'm merely using common usage. A form of common usage that I already provided a link describing. Don't like it? I'd suggest taking it up with a much different audience.
Aridas, do you believe that this 'subtle energy' (aka chi, prana, life force etc) that cannot be detected or measured exists? If so, why do you believe that it exists?
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Old 5th November 2012, 04:21 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by 23_Tauri View Post
Aridas, do you believe that this 'subtle energy' (aka chi, prana, life force etc) that cannot be detected or measured exists? If so, why do you believe that it exists?
At what point did I say either that it exists or that I believe that it exists? Unless you're arguing that one has to believe in something to be able to understand the concepts involved and/or discuss it?

A bit more directly... my position is, technically, neither. If something is unfalsifiable, like most of the versions, I tend to allow it as a possibility, but consider it to be meaningless. It's basically an extension of ignosticism to other, similar concepts.
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Old 5th November 2012, 04:22 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
At what point did I say either that it exists or that I believe that it exists?
You didn't, that's why I asked you the question.

Would you like to answer it please? A yes or a no will do fine. Thanks!
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Old 5th November 2012, 04:24 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Deranged View Post
I have no idea if this is legit but last week I took an online Chakra "test" by answering a bunch of questions. Every single Chakra was in perfect condition. And her "job" is to improve Chakras. I have no idea what this is all about but I got an A+. LOL!!!
Which chakra system did you use?
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Old 5th November 2012, 04:34 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by 23_Tauri View Post
You didn't, that's why I asked you the question.

Would you like to answer it please? A yes or a no will do fine. Thanks!
I did, in an edit to add more, given that no one else had posted when I started the edit and it was a fairly quick one. My apologies, I had initially misunderstood what you said, hence the answer that wasn't direct. On rereading, I saw my error and attempted to correct it quickly.

Still, to repeat the most relevant part...

A bit more directly... my position is, technically, neither. If something is unfalsifiable, like most of the versions, I tend to allow it as a possibility, but consider it to be meaningless. It's basically an extension of ignosticism to other, similar concepts.

To add to that, slightly, then, so I'm not just repeating myself, I allow the possibility of one or more being the case, if they're possible in the first place, but don't see good reason to assume or conclude that any of them actually are the case.
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Old 5th November 2012, 05:56 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
A bit more directly... my position is, technically, neither.
Technically?

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
If something is unfalsifiable, like most of the versions,
Most versions? Most versions of what? Energy? There's only one scientifically accepted 'version' of energy, and that is the ability to do work, usually measured in joules. What other versions are you referring to by 'most'? Do you mean anything that falls under the umbrella of 'spiritual energy'?

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
I tend to allow it as a possibility, but consider it to be meaningless. It's basically an extension of ignosticism to other, similar concepts.

To add to that, slightly, then, so I'm not just repeating myself, I allow the possibility of one or more being the case, if they're possible in the first place, but don't see good reason to assume or conclude that any of them actually are the case.
Did you say earlier that you were a Reiki healer? Therefore, I assume this is your job (or at least one of them). Are you telling me that you hold a job manipulating something about which the existence of which you are undecided? Or do you do your Reiki healing on people knowing full well at the back of your mind that it could just all be placebo effect? If so, does that not bother you?

Or to give an analogy, would an agnostic preach to a church congregation about the existence of god?
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Old 5th November 2012, 08:56 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by 23_Tauri View Post
Most versions? Most versions of what? Energy? There's only one scientifically accepted 'version' of energy, and that is the ability to do work, usually measured in joules. What other versions are you referring to by 'most'? Do you mean anything that falls under the umbrella of 'spiritual energy'?
I'll say 'spiritual energy,' and leave it at that, then, since you used the term. It's not like I haven't been clear what I'm talking about.


Originally Posted by 23_Tauri View Post
Did you say earlier that you were a Reiki healer?
No. I've received training in it, both theory and practice, though, and thus both done it and experienced it in the course of learning more forms of massage therapy. After all that, as I said, I'm quite willing to concede that most or all of the effects of Reiki are attributable to other causes than the energy manipulation that is claimed. This doesn't mean that the energy doesn't exist or that manipulation isn't happening, but rather that I don't see good reason to claim that it does or is.

Quote:
Therefore, I assume this is your job (or at least one of them). Are you telling me that you hold a job manipulating something about which the existence of which you are undecided? Or do you do your Reiki healing on people knowing full well at the back of your mind that it could just all be placebo effect? If so, does that not bother you?

Or to give an analogy, would an agnostic preach to a church congregation about the existence of god?
Right. Lots of assumptions here that don't bear much resemblance with reality. Sadly, massage therapy in any form is not my job or one of them. Outside of the training, I haven't really had reason to practice Reiki, and I've never charged for Reiki, regardless.

As for your attempted analogy, I'd say that it simply fails, and that it sounds like your emotion and incorrect preconceptions are clouding your judgement, given what it's a continuation of.
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Old 5th November 2012, 10:26 AM   #140
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Anyway, how about returning to the OP and lady on the pier?

From her website, which doesn't ment mention reiki
Quote:
You, too, can easily start living intuitively by trusting the guidance of your Higher Self, your soul. You were born with this divine and powerful gift of intuition. It is a muscle that needs strengthening like all other parts of your being. You can use it or let it atrophy. If you choose to live intuitively, it will assist you in understanding situations, people, and sometimes even animals. It will guide and protect you. Intuitive arts facilitate your living in a multidimensional reality. If you have the desire to tap into that mystical part of your being, and want guidance, contact me for us to work together. Through a consultation with Spirit Energy Guidance and Tarot card reading we can touch and unblock any unresolved issues, thus permitting you to receive your guidance clearly. Intuitive consultations work great over the phone for Spirit has no form.
Tarot, palm reading and spirit guidance- a heady mixture!
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Old 5th November 2012, 01:19 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
I'll say 'spiritual energy,' and leave it at that, then, since you used the term. It's not like I haven't been clear what I'm talking about.
As clear as it's possible to be about something for which there is no evidence of it existing.

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
No. I've received training in it, both theory and practice, though, and thus both done it and experienced it in the course of learning more forms of massage therapy.
Ok, that's clear; I was only seeking clarification. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
After all that, as I said, I'm quite willing to concede that most or all of the effects of Reiki are attributable to other causes than the energy manipulation that is claimed. This doesn't mean that the energy doesn't exist or that manipulation isn't happening, but rather that I don't see good reason to claim that it does or is.
So you'd say Reiki is most likely placebo, is that what you're saying? Or are you saying that "most or all of the effects of Reiki" are attributable to some other, unknown, unmeasurable and invisible force that isn't 'energy' (in the chi/prana/qi/New Age use of the word) and isn't placebo?

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Right. Lots of assumptions here that don't bear much resemblance with reality. Sadly, massage therapy in any form is not my job or one of them. Outside of the training, I haven't really had reason to practice Reiki, and I've never charged for Reiki, regardless.
I did say that it was an assumption. I apologise. From the way you were talking about Reiki in your posts #59 and #72 it sounded to me like it was what you did (paid or unpaid).

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
As for your attempted analogy, I'd say that it simply fails, and that it sounds like your emotion and incorrect preconceptions are clouding your judgement, given what it's a continuation of.
What is what a continuation of?
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Old 5th November 2012, 05:17 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Heh. I'm merely using common usage. A form of common usage that I already provided a link describing. Don't like it? I'd suggest taking it up with a much different audience.
Well actually I think you'll find that if you want to push BS esoteric nonsense it''ll be you that needs to do that with a different audience.

Notice that this is a sceptic forum where objective and scientific evidence is king, not wishy washy misuse of language by woo peddling hippies.

As for it being "common usage"... Sorry, but it simply isn't (except for it's use by those who commonly misuse the term).
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Old 5th November 2012, 05:23 PM   #143
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The link provided to describe esoteric energy appears to be a flashing neon sign that says "read me, I'm nonsense!"
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Old 5th November 2012, 05:32 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
The link provided to describe esoteric energy appears to be a flashing neon sign that says "read me, I'm nonsense!"
I have to admit I didn't read it all... I just didn't have enough energy to spare on such twaddle*.





* I obviously need my chakras dowsing and aligning to the local ley lines or something.
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Old 5th November 2012, 05:35 PM   #145
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I suspect it's karma from all those exploding kittens!
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Old 5th November 2012, 05:41 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by 23_Tauri View Post
So you'd say Reiki is most likely placebo, is that what you're saying? Or are you saying that "most or all of the effects of Reiki" are attributable to some other, unknown, unmeasurable and invisible force that isn't 'energy' (in the chi/prana/qi/New Age use of the word) and isn't placebo?
I'd say that the effects of Reiki are explainable without needing to resort to anything non-scientific or pseudo-scientific. I certainly know what I felt and experienced, for the record, but I don't have good reason to assume or conclude that the "energy" I felt was anything other than biological in origin. My personal biology, in particular.

Originally Posted by 23_Tauri View Post
What is what a continuation of?
Well...

Quote:
Or to give an analogy, would an agnostic preach to a church congregation about the existence of god?
Was, by the way you stated it, an attempt to rephrase the overall point of your questioning in the previous paragraph. In other words, it was a continuation of the thought process there.
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Old 5th November 2012, 05:55 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
Well actually I think you'll find that if you want to push BS esoteric nonsense it''ll be you that needs to do that with a different audience.
I was pushing it? Seriously? I'm pretty sure that my intentions and actual posts were nothing of the sort. Being able to discuss something does not mean that one is pushing it.

Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
As for it being "common usage"... Sorry, but it simply isn't (except for it's use by those who commonly misuse the term).
I've made known what usage is being used clearly and repeatedly. Even if it weren't in common usage which, sadly, it simply is, that would be enough to make this line of discussion somewhat pointless. At no point in this general discussion, for the record, have I claimed that I was using any other usage of the word.
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Old 5th November 2012, 06:22 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
I'd say that the effects of Reiki are explainable without needing to resort to anything non-scientific or pseudo-scientific. I certainly know what I felt and experienced, for the record, but I don't have good reason to assume or conclude that the "energy" I felt was anything other than biological in origin. My personal biology, in particular.
Pray tell me more, I'm all ears and you've got my full attention. What was this "biological in origin" phenomenon and what were its effects?
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Old 5th November 2012, 06:53 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by 23_Tauri View Post
Pray tell me more, I'm all ears and you've got my full attention. What was this "biological in origin" phenomenon and what were its effects?
Since I'm growing tired of this discussion, in general, I'll sum it up the phenomenon in two words. A feeling. The definite effects? I felt something. Nothing verifiable other than that.
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Old 5th November 2012, 08:58 PM   #150
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so in other words you have no evidence beyond your anecdote
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Old 5th November 2012, 09:30 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
so in other words you have no evidence beyond your anecdote
Evidence for what? I didn't make a positive claim that would require evidence. Except that spiritual energy, the supernatural, and other non-scientific explanations were not required. Given that what I said wouldn't even count as anecdotal evidence for that, I'm going to have to say that it's annoying to have positions and statements that I don't hold and didn't make projected onto me. Especially after I've gone out of my way to make it clear that they're not warranted. Repeatedly.
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Last edited by Aridas; 5th November 2012 at 09:41 PM. Reason: Minor alteration to the start of my response and some to the middle
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Old 5th November 2012, 09:41 PM   #152
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ahem... I believe above you will find you made claims of experiencing "spiritual energy"

I would link all of this stuff, but frankly I don't feel like doing your work for you.
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Old 5th November 2012, 09:57 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
ahem... I believe above you will find you made claims of experiencing "spiritual energy"

I would link all of this stuff, but frankly I don't feel like doing your work for you.
No. I didn't make the claim that I experienced spiritual energy. I made the claim that I experienced something that is likely being interpreted as spiritual energy, but that it can be reasonably explained without needing to resort to nonscientific explanations.
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Old 5th November 2012, 10:04 PM   #154
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no, you said "spiritual energy" then claimed to have received training and then danced around giving a firm answer on whether or not you thought it was just a placebo, real, or a load of malarky.


it's one of those 3 things you see, there's no such thing as all of these and nothing.

care to give us a solid response ?
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Old 5th November 2012, 10:18 PM   #155
Aridas
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
no, you said "spiritual energy"
And?

Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
then claimed to have received training
And I have.

Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
and then danced around giving a firm answer on whether or not you thought it was just a placebo, real, or a load of malarky.
I simply answered as honestly as logically possible. Reiki's effects are similar enough to a placebo's to make that the most logical explanation. That does not mean that the spiritual energy's not real, but it does mean that there's not good reason to claim that spiritual energy is real, based on that evidence. As for whether something's a load of malarky or not, if something's unfalsifiable, I generally don't even consider it worth a label like that. Hence why I pointed out that my position is, basically, ignosticism, previously.


Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
care to give us a solid response ?
Seriously, are you done with questions that could have been answered just fine with my previous posts?
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Last edited by Aridas; 5th November 2012 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 6th November 2012, 12:34 AM   #156
Pixel42
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FWIW Aridas, your position has always been clear to me. It's just that long time posters are used to the woos who come here misusing the language and dancing around the concept of evidence, and I can understand why some thought that's what you were trying to do.
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Old 6th November 2012, 12:55 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
And?



And I have.



I simply answered as honestly as logically possible. Reiki's effects are similar enough to a placebo's to make that the most logical explanation. That does not mean that the spiritual energy's not real, but it does mean that there's not good reason to claim that spiritual energy is real, based on that evidence. As for whether something's a load of malarky or not, if something's unfalsifiable, I generally don't even consider it worth a label like that. Hence why I pointed out that my position is, basically, ignosticism, previously.




Seriously, are you done with questions that could have been answered just fine with my previous posts?
Seems like you desperately want to believe in spiritual energy.
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Old 6th November 2012, 01:31 AM   #158
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
FWIW Aridas, your position has always been clear to me. It's just that long time posters are used to the woos who come here misusing the language and dancing around the concept of evidence, and I can understand why some thought that's what you were trying to do.
Thank you. I'm used to it, too, for the record, which is why I've made the extra effort to keep things as clear as possible.

Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Seems like you desperately want to believe in spiritual energy.
Seems like I desperately seek to adhere to logic and reason, rather than making unsupported claims and adding unnecessarily to the assumptions I make.
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Old 6th November 2012, 01:40 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
I was pushing it? Seriously? I'm pretty sure that my intentions and actual posts were nothing of the sort. Being able to discuss something does not mean that one is pushing it.
Linking to a page full of nonsense in order to justify misusing a word would be "pushing it", yes.

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
I've made known what usage is being used clearly and repeatedly.
Well no you haven't actually. I still haven't read a coherent response to the question Squeegee Beckenhiem asked you that originally lead to this exchange. In fact I'd go so far as to say that you've gone out of your way to not answer the question.

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Even if it weren't in common usage which, sadly, it simply is, that would be enough to make this line of discussion somewhat pointless. At no point in this general discussion, for the record, have I claimed that I was using any other usage of the word.
Every one of your responses so far has been very 'round the houses' and it seems to me that you deliberately want to keep gaps for people to put gods into.
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Old 6th November 2012, 01:46 AM   #160
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This seems to be overly complicated.

The OP only makes one simple claim:

"I felt static electricity flowing from her hands to mine"

Firstly and importantly, "static electricity" does not flow, so the use of term is inappropriate.

That only leaves some kind of placebo effect, expected or otherwise, as a scientific explanation. Any other explanation has to be on the level of the supernatural, which is also inappropriate, at least on a skeptic's website.

So I simply ask, what does the OP expect to gain by posting such a vague, nebulous and frankly, quite unimpressive claim?
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