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Tags honor killing , islam , pakistan , traditional societies

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Old 6th November 2012, 10:23 AM   #41
Professor Yaffle
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Originally Posted by westprog View Post
Those were girls who actually got pregnant, and who were obviously not killed.

(I'll leave aside the "so that makes it all right then...")
They weren't just for unwed pregnant girls:

Quote:
"Those places" were the Magdalene laundries: convents throughout Ireland that contained huge washing workhouses run by nuns, which were originally set up in the early 19th century as a refuge for prostitutes. A hundred years later they had become prisons to which Irish Catholic girls and young women "in moral danger" could be sent by their parish priest - the term covered anyone from single mothers (who had often become pregnant as a result of rape or incest) to girls who were simply high-spirited or "bold". Eventually the laundries would spread to England.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...962932185.html
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Old 6th November 2012, 10:27 AM   #42
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Found this

http://www.vawpreventionscotland.org...0Community.pdf

Advantages of honour

1 - Self-awareness/pride
In societies which are ordered around ideas of honour, upholding
perceived standards of behaviour can become the basis of a person’s
identity and positive self-image.

2 - Increased security and prospects for offspring
Families which conform to accepted standards of honour and moral
behaviour receive benefits in terms of a better future for their sons
who enjoy increased marriage and career prospects within their community.

3 - Improved contacts and business opportunities
Families which publicly uphold their honour usually gain increased social
status. This can result in better contacts within the community
which can lead to material benefits such as increased income for the
self-employed and greater trade for owners of shops and businesses.

4 - Providing stability in an changing/new environment
For immigrants arriving in the UK, vesting one’s identity in intangibles
such as traditional ideas of honour and pride can be safer than rooting
one’s reputation and social worth in terms of property, wealth and a
career.

4 - Sense of superiority (vis-à-vis members of other ethnic
groups, castes, religions)
For immigrants with low career prospects, investing in ideas of sexual
honour can provide a way to feel superior to strangers by measuring.

It is incredible that brutal (as is often the case) murder is considered to be an act that carries no dishonour. Then clearly protecting the existing culture is a major reason for such killings

Common ways in which honour can be damaged

1 - Defying parental authority
In many cultures, elder members of the family are expected to control
their children. Parents who publicly fail to do so may lose status in the
community as a result.

2 - Becoming ‘western’ (clothes, behaviour, attitude)
People from honour-based cultures often transform ideas of honour
into a pride in one’s origins and/or religion once they settle in ‘the
West’. Families who allow their children to assimilate into wider society
can be seen as betraying their origins, their community and their
ancestors.

3 - Women having sex/relationships before marriage
Many honour-based cultures put a high premium on a girl’s virginity
and sexual fidelity. Families whose women are believed to have extramarital
relationships (even of a non-sexual kind) can suffer a decline in
honour and social standing.

4- Use of drugs or alcohol
Drinking alcohol and using drugs not endorsed by religion, culture or
tradition can bring shame on families because their children are seen
as abandoning or rejecting the values of their parents and their community.

5 - Gossip
In many cases honour is damaged less by a person’s action than by
knowledge of that action becoming public knowledge. Rumours and
gossip – even if untrue – can damage the status of a family or an individual.

Lastly

"In many cases, families are less concerned with immoral acts, than with how these will affect how they are seen by their relatives and by other members of their community. As honour is an intangible asset dependent on a community’s perceptions, an ‘immoral’ act does not become shameful’ or ‘dishonourable’ until it becomes public knowledge. The consequences of damaging one’s honour or the honour of one’s family can be serious."
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Old 6th November 2012, 10:47 AM   #43
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Excellent link, Nessie.

The trouble I'm having is in finding something like a case study demonstrating the actual consequences of a loss of honor in any of these cultures. What is abundantly clear from the link you posted and everything which I've found is that the perception among those who commit honor killings is that the consequences will be real and severe.
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Old 6th November 2012, 11:00 AM   #44
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I will keep hunting, but yes so far I have no example of what happened to a family who did not kill their daughter when she dishonoured the family.
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Old 6th November 2012, 01:24 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
"In many cases, families are less concerned with immoral acts, than with how these will affect how they are seen by their relatives and by other members of their community. As honour is an intangible asset dependent on a community’s perceptions, an ‘immoral’ act does not become shameful’ or ‘dishonourable’ until it becomes public knowledge. The consequences of damaging one’s honour or the honour of one’s family can be serious."
This might be part of the difference between otherwise similar societies as to what the response is to private and public sin. A shame driven society will only be concerned with the public discovery of misbehaviour. A guilt driven society will consider undiscovered disgrace just as bad. Both can otherwise have superficially similar views.
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Old 6th November 2012, 02:29 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by westprog View Post
This might be part of the difference between otherwise similar societies as to what the response is to private and public sin. A shame driven society will only be concerned with the public discovery of misbehaviour. A guilt driven society will consider undiscovered disgrace just as bad. Both can otherwise have superficially similar views.
Are there guilt driven societies? I'm having a harder time understanding the distinction the more I think about it. On the one hand, I understand what you mean, but as I consider it more, guilt and shame are rather inextricably intertwined. I think "guilt" arises out of a fear of being discovered and shamed.
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Old 6th November 2012, 03:33 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Are there guilt driven societies? I'm having a harder time understanding the distinction the more I think about it. On the one hand, I understand what you mean, but as I consider it more, guilt and shame are rather inextricably intertwined. I think "guilt" arises out of a fear of being discovered and shamed.
I think that there's often a mixture of guilt and shame. However, I believe that guilt does exist, as something different to avoiding blame. I think most people posting here have things that they wouldn't do, even if they were sure that they would never be found out.
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Old 6th November 2012, 03:54 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I will keep hunting, but yes so far I have no example of what happened to a family who did not kill their daughter when she dishonoured the family.
Presumably such cases would not be considered newsworthy. As such you may have a long hunt.
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Old 6th November 2012, 04:27 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by 666 View Post
Presumably such cases would not be considered newsworthy. As such you may have a long hunt.
I don't know about Nessie, but I certainly don't expect it to be in the news. I've been looking in the anthropological studies and surveys. Not having much luck. The few papers that look promising seem to require that I shell out a few bucks.
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Old 6th November 2012, 04:59 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Are there guilt driven societies?
Yes, they are called Catholics.

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Old 6th November 2012, 05:04 PM   #51
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Any of the purveyors of the Original Sin idea creates the guilt-ridden.
I recall watching Jimmy Swaggart confess his sins... masterfully done.
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Old 6th November 2012, 06:32 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
Yes, they are called Catholics.

Up to a point. Ireland is far more guilt-driven than the Mediterranean countries, for example.
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Old 6th November 2012, 06:58 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
I'd also be interested in what punishment jref members think should be meted out to these horrid people.
Place the daughter's corpse in a shed with a bit of soil and a few insects. Place the parents on opposite sides, with their heads and arms locked in stocks at kneeling level. Use neck braces to lock their line of sight on the body. Supply oxygen and IV fluids laced with stimulants. Release them after the corpse has completely decomposed.

Too lenient?
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Old 6th November 2012, 08:03 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
Objective conditions change more quickly than culture. I think the Lamarckian evolution of culture allows for changes that may (obviously) occur in less than a a generation. Certain traits with negative selection pressure might persist, but only to a point. the greater the cost to individuals, the more quickly they will change.

Probably under horrid objective material conditions.
You're still skipping an important discovery about survival of the fittest. It's not just about changing conditions while it takes longer for genetics to catch up, though that is also another important factor.

Instead of survival of the fittest, think random mutation and natural selection 'pressures'. Some mutations have a neutral effect on survival. It's then random which are amplified and which die out. Some mutations have a negative survival impact but the effect is not absolute and random circumstances can result in the effect being amplified in spite of a negative survival effect. And a very positive survival trait can still fail to become established depending on circumstances.

Cultural traits almost certainly are subject to similar selection pressures. Would, for example, the maladaptive cultural war tactics of the Aztecs led to their demise had the Conquistadors not found and invaded their territories?

One can easily recall dozens of similar examples where a cultural trait developed in a negative direction but was not affected until some other major change occurred. Everything cultural is not necessarily directly survival pressure selected.
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Old 6th November 2012, 08:09 PM   #55
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Found this

http://www.vawpreventionscotland.org...0Community.pdf

Advantages of honour

1 - Self-awareness/pride
In societies which are ordered around ideas of honour, upholding
perceived standards of behaviour can become the basis of a person’s
identity and positive self-image.

2 - Increased security and prospects for offspring
Families which conform to accepted standards of honour and moral
behaviour receive benefits in terms of a better future for their sons
who enjoy increased marriage and career prospects within their community.

3 - Improved contacts and business opportunities
Families which publicly uphold their honour usually gain increased social
status. This can result in better contacts within the community
which can lead to material benefits such as increased income for the
self-employed and greater trade for owners of shops and businesses.

4 - Providing stability in an changing/new environment
For immigrants arriving in the UK, vesting one’s identity in intangibles
such as traditional ideas of honour and pride can be safer than rooting
one’s reputation and social worth in terms of property, wealth and a
career.

4 - Sense of superiority (vis-à-vis members of other ethnic
groups, castes, religions)
For immigrants with low career prospects, investing in ideas of sexual
honour can provide a way to feel superior to strangers by measuring.

It is incredible that brutal (as is often the case) murder is considered to be an act that carries no dishonour. Then clearly protecting the existing culture is a major reason for such killings

Common ways in which honour can be damaged

1 - Defying parental authority
In many cultures, elder members of the family are expected to control
their children. Parents who publicly fail to do so may lose status in the
community as a result.

2 - Becoming ‘western’ (clothes, behaviour, attitude)
People from honour-based cultures often transform ideas of honour
into a pride in one’s origins and/or religion once they settle in ‘the
West’. Families who allow their children to assimilate into wider society
can be seen as betraying their origins, their community and their
ancestors.

3 - Women having sex/relationships before marriage
Many honour-based cultures put a high premium on a girl’s virginity
and sexual fidelity. Families whose women are believed to have extramarital
relationships (even of a non-sexual kind) can suffer a decline in
honour and social standing.

4- Use of drugs or alcohol
Drinking alcohol and using drugs not endorsed by religion, culture or
tradition can bring shame on families because their children are seen
as abandoning or rejecting the values of their parents and their community.

5 - Gossip
In many cases honour is damaged less by a person’s action than by
knowledge of that action becoming public knowledge. Rumours and
gossip – even if untrue – can damage the status of a family or an individual.

Lastly

"In many cases, families are less concerned with immoral acts, than with how these will affect how they are seen by their relatives and by other members of their community. As honour is an intangible asset dependent on a community’s perceptions, an ‘immoral’ act does not become shameful’ or ‘dishonourable’ until it becomes public knowledge. The consequences of damaging one’s honour or the honour of one’s family can be serious."
It's one thing to find benefits for honor. It's quite another to look at the specifics such as honor killing. When you look at the details like pouring acid over a child who looked at a boy, the supposed benefits don't necessarily apply.
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Old 6th November 2012, 09:46 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's one thing to find benefits for honor. It's quite another to look at the specifics such as honor killing. When you look at the details like pouring acid over a child who looked at a boy, the supposed benefits don't necessarily apply.
That applies to many behaviours. The idea is that girls are sufficiently terrified by the prospect of being murdered that they will stay in line. The families which behave in this way will not benefit. The families willing to do so might.

Of course, many such cultural behaviours which make sense under some circumstances will often persist after circumstances change. That's why species go extinct.
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Old 6th November 2012, 10:22 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by westprog View Post
That applies to many behaviours. The idea is that girls are sufficiently terrified by the prospect of being murdered that they will stay in line. The families which behave in this way will not benefit. The families willing to do so might.

Of course, many such cultural behaviours which make sense under some circumstances will often persist after circumstances change. That's why species go extinct.
And, lots of cultural behaviors evolve that are not beneficial from the get go, whether circumstances change or not.
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Old 7th November 2012, 03:20 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
By this logic, you would have been OK with Hitler's final solution.

There are times when it is appropriate to consider another's cultural values as different but reasonable, and times where one can just say, that's wrong, I don't care what the involved people believe.
Wow. We're playing the 'Hitler' comparison card this early in the game? Please explain how not interfering with a culture that has been carrying out a practice at a family level (however barbaric) for probably hundreds of years, is the same as condoning the (relatively) overnight attempted ethnic cleansing of millions by their own Government?

Logic is great when used logically...
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Old 7th November 2012, 03:26 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
You and I certainly agree that these crimes take place in a much different cultural milieu, and I think we both agree that they should be examined in that light. I'm just quibbling.
I mostly agree. I would say that I personally think that for Honour Killing to even be a viable option suggests to me it is an acceptable solution in some of these cultures.

I don't think you're quibbling at all - you make some interesting points.
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Old 7th November 2012, 05:07 AM   #60
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I would say that it is odd there are no news stories about a family who brought shame on themselves by not punishing a daughter who had dishonoured them.

Surely it would be big news and needed news to remind all families of the consequences of not punishing an act of dishonour.
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Old 7th November 2012, 06:52 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I would say that it is odd there are no news stories about a family who brought shame on themselves by not punishing a daughter who had dishonoured them.

Surely it would be big news and needed news to remind all families of the consequences of not punishing an act of dishonour.
Not necessarily. Many beliefs persist with little or no objective evidence to support them. I would have to agree with you that this belief s a very costly one to entertain, but I think you could find other examples in other cultures of extreme measures taken to comply with certain cultural mores and taboos.

Skeptic Ginger makes some good points about cultural evolution. Certain cultural elements may nave no adaptive benefit, yet they persist. Culture is a very conservative thing. It will not change until objective conditions make it impossible not to.
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Old 7th November 2012, 06:56 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I would say that it is odd there are no news stories about a family who brought shame on themselves by not punishing a daughter who had dishonoured them.

Surely it would be big news and needed news to remind all families of the consequences of not punishing an act of dishonour.
Maybe - maybe not. Though I'd suggest that awarding a 2 year jail sentence to a woman who slit her own daughters wrists, then bludgeoned her to death for good measure shows a certain lack of regard for the severity of the act.
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Old 7th November 2012, 07:25 AM   #63
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It maybe a case that there are so few instances of not killing for honour because the honour system is so ingrained in the culture.

I am so glad I am not a woman in those places. What a horrible, ****** life many must have to endure.
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Old 7th November 2012, 07:28 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It maybe a case that there are so few instances of not killing for honour because the honour system is so ingrained in the culture.

I am so glad I am not a woman in those places. What a horrible, ****** life many must have to endure.
Agreed; by western standards. Do they know any different though, if being downtrodden as a woman is the cultural norm?
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Old 7th November 2012, 07:38 AM   #65
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I am sure they do now, especially with access to the internet to see how other women get to live their lives. The campaign for education for Afghan girls is one of the few things we have got right in invading that country

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19911341

yet there are people who hate that idea

http://www.cnn.co.uk/2012/08/02/worl...ool/index.html

"People are crazy," said Razia Jan, founder of a girls' school outside Kabul. "The day we opened the school, (on) the other side of town, they threw hand grenades in a girls' school, and 100 girls were killed.

"Every day, you hear that somebody's thrown acid at a girl's face ... or they poison their water."

There were at least 185 documented attacks on schools and hospitals in Afghanistan last year, according to the United Nations. The majority were attributed to armed groups opposed to girls' education."
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Old 7th November 2012, 09:29 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It maybe a case that there are so few instances of not killing for honour because the honour system is so ingrained in the culture.

I am so glad I am not a woman in those places. What a horrible, ****** life many must have to endure.
.
Goddamn right! And yet, western women will go there for whatever reasons.
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Old 7th November 2012, 09:32 AM   #67
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In my neighborhood, Arabic women walk around every day all by themselves. And they drive cars!
And the hijab disappears over time.
No one who observes them thinks they need to be raped/murdered just for doing that.
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Old 7th November 2012, 10:19 AM   #68
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There was a family holiday to Turkey a while back, which i could not go to as I was working. Everyone said they were very shocked how even in that secular state it was clear women were marginalised and expected to be mothers, not go out except during the day to shop and to keep pretty much covered up.

But the Turkish men would happily consort with bikini clad or topless women from the UK or Germany where the bulk of the tourists came from, many drank and the hypocrisy was startling in its blatancy. Yet their culture made it all OK.
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Old 7th November 2012, 01:34 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Wow. We're playing the 'Hitler' comparison card this early in the game? Please explain how not interfering with a culture that has been carrying out a practice at a family level (however barbaric) for probably hundreds of years, is the same as condoning the (relatively) overnight attempted ethnic cleansing of millions by their own Government?

Logic is great when used logically...
Your defense was whatever was legal/the norm in the country said events occurred in.

If you want to clarify now and add in only social, not governmental acts, fine. How do you feel about killing albinos and harvesting their body parts for rituals in some African countries? Burning people accused of witchcraft? Hey, it's their culture, who are we to interfere?

How about selling your prepubescent girl children into sex slavery? That's a cultural norm in some parts of the world. Can't pay the bills? Sell off a couple of the kids to a carpet factory owner who needs a labor source.
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Old 7th November 2012, 01:38 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Agreed; by western standards. Do they know any different though, if being downtrodden as a woman is the cultural norm?
I take it the "male" in your moniker reflects your gender?
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Old 7th November 2012, 02:25 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Call me a 'Cultural Apologist', but that's their way. I don't have to like it or agree with it, but that doesn't give me any right to interfere. They will be punished accordingly if they have contravened their laws.

If they do this in a country that is not theirs where 'honour killing' is (quite rightly) treated as a primitive act of murder, and whose laws they have chosen to abide by, and are governed by whether they like it or not, then they should suffer the full force of those laws.
Again, the "crime" committed by the Pakistani girl whose parents murdered her by pouring acid on her, was that she looked at a boy. Again, her parents showed no remorse over murdering their own child.

Again, the Palestinian girl whose mother murdered her because she was pregnant out of wedlock had been impregnated as a result of her two brothers raping her. Did you miss that little detail?

Again, hundreds of Pakistani women are murdered in the name of "honor" every year. Young people in India murdered for such things as marrying someone of a different caste are about 1,000 per year. The young woman beaten to death by her own father in Palestine was a Christian who married a Muslim. So much for the religions of love and peace.

Perhaps I'm being ethnocentric in being appalled by such acts. Guess what: I have no problem with that aspect of my feelings of moral superiority over these people and their cultures. What I find particularly appalling about these honor killings is the gratuitous cruelty involved in them. The horrid couple who killed their 15 year-old daughter for looking at boys didn't do her in with a bullet in the head or sleeping pills or even snapping her neck. Rather, they slowly killed her by pouring acid on her.

My response to such crimes would be an automatic death penalty for all perpetrators - without exception. If my solution seems harsh, consider that nuclear arsenals have fallen into the hands of countries once part of the Soviet Union, quite possibly cultures of the sort that mete out gratuitously cruel death to those who don't conform to their cultural standards.

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Old 7th November 2012, 02:29 PM   #72
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There are certain cultural acts which cannot be accepted, cannibalism is one that has been pretty much ended. I think honour killings should also be ended, no matter what the feels of those who practice it are.
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Old 7th November 2012, 11:47 PM   #73
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Here is another article on honor killings in the Near East, this example from Jordan is another one involving a girl who disgraced her family by having been raped by one of her brothers (from the article, emphasis added):

On May 31, 1994, Kifaya Husayn, a 16-year-old Jordanian girl, was lashed to a chair by her 32-year-old brother. He gave her a drink of water and told her to recite an Islamic prayer. Then he slashed her throat. Immediately afterward, he ran out into the street, waving the bloody knife and crying, 'I have killed my sister to cleanse my honor.' Kifaya's crime? She was raped by another brother, a 21-year-old man. Her judge and jury? Her own uncles, who convinced her eldest brother that Kifaya was too much of a disgrace to the family honor to be allowed to live."[1] The murderer was sentenced to fifteen years, but the sentence was subsequently reduced to seven and a half years, an extremely severe penalty by Jordanian standards.

However, it turns out that in this case the brother who murdered her actually felt some reorse for what he had done (from the article, emphasis added):

A Jordanian murdered his sister who was raped by another brother. The family tried initially to save its honor by marrying the victim to an old man, but this new husband turned her into a prostitute and she escaped from him. The murderer confessed that if he had to go through it all again he would not kill her, but rather would kill his father, mother, uncles, and all the relatives that pressured him to murder and led him to jail. Instead of killing his sister and going to jail, he said he should have "tied her with a rope like a goat and let her spend her life like that until she dies.

So this ***hole would have liked to have shown his raped sister mercy by making her live like a goat for the rest of her life.

Here's another example from the article:

A young Palestinian who murdered his sister who had been sexually assaulted: "Before the incident, I drank tea and it tasted bitter because my honor was violated. After the killing I felt much better... I don't wish anybody the mental state I was in. I was under tremendous mental pressure."

Poor baby! He was under "tremendous mental pressure"! I wonder what sort of pressure his poor raped sister was under.

ETA: I did a Google images search on honor killing and found a lot of gruesome pictures. However this picture of teenage sisters Amina and Sarah Said is far more damning (though I'm not necessarily a fan of the website on which I found the picture). These two girls were born in Texas of an Egyptian Muslim father and a Christian mother. Apparently, their father shot them (multiple times) to death for having Christian boyfriends.

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Old 8th November 2012, 01:08 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
Again, the "crime" committed by the Pakistani girl whose parents murdered her by pouring acid on her, was that she looked at a boy. Again, her parents showed no remorse over murdering their own child.

Again, the Palestinian girl whose mother murdered her because she was pregnant out of wedlock had been impregnated as a result of her two brothers raping her. Did you miss that little detail?

Again, hundreds of Pakistani women are murdered in the name of "honor" every year. Young people in India murdered for such things as marrying someone of a different caste are about 1,000 per year. The young woman beaten to death by her own father in Palestine was a Christian who married a Muslim. So much for the religions of love and peace.

Perhaps I'm being ethnocentric in being appalled by such acts. Guess what: I have no problem with that aspect of my feelings of moral superiority over these people and their cultures. What I find particularly appalling about these honor killings is the gratuitous cruelty involved in them. The horrid couple who killed their 15 year-old daughter for looking at boys didn't do her in with a bullet in the head or sleeping pills or even snapping her neck. Rather, they slowly killed her by pouring acid on her.

My response to such crimes would be an automatic death penalty for all perpetrators - without exception. If my solution seems harsh, consider that nuclear arsenals have fallen into the hands of countries once part of the Soviet Union, quite possibly cultures of the sort that mete out gratuitously cruel death to those who don't conform to their cultural standards.
I think you misunderstand me - I'm talking about those who commit 'Honour Killings' being punished by law; not the social/religious 'crimes' of the victims.
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Old 8th November 2012, 01:26 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Your defense was whatever was legal/the norm in the country said events occurred in.
Yes, so how was the holocaust 'the norm'?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
If you want to clarify now and add in only social, not governmental acts, fine. How do you feel about killing albinos and harvesting their body parts for rituals in some African countries? Burning people accused of witchcraft?
I think it's both disgusting and primitive.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Hey, it's their culture, who are we to interfere?
Correct. Who gives us the right to interfere in another countries cultural matters? What do you propose to do about stopping 'Honour Killings' - send an armed force into Pakistan and enforce the law at gunpoint? Get your Government to impose sanctions on Pakistan until they comply with your way of thinking, and conform to your standard of what is socially acceptable?

Is it Hitler comparison time again?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How about selling your prepubescent girl children into sex slavery? That's a cultural norm in some parts of the world. Can't pay the bills? Sell off a couple of the kids to a carpet factory owner who needs a labor source.
Don't agree with that either. What's your point?
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Old 8th November 2012, 01:28 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There are certain cultural acts which cannot be accepted, cannibalism is one that has been pretty much ended. I think honour killings should also be ended, no matter what the feels of those who practice it are.
'Ended' now there's a loaded word...

How was cannibalism 'ended', and how do you propose to 'end' Honour Killings?
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Old 8th November 2012, 01:29 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I take it the "male" in your moniker reflects your gender?
Yup. This matters because...?
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Old 8th November 2012, 05:00 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
'Ended' now there's a loaded word...

How was cannibalism 'ended', and how do you propose to 'end' Honour Killings?
I do not subscribe to your negative attitude and total respect to all of these campaigns to stop honour killings

http://www.stophonourkillings.com/

http://www.irinnews.org/Report/26461...honour-killing

http://commit.tigweb.org/wake-up-cam...honor-killings

there are others as well.

In Scotland there has been many a male who has found himself locked up for domestic violence who comes from a country were such and honour killings are accepted. They make appeals, as do their wives that it is their culture and no action should be taken against the husband. The response is it is not acceptable in Scotland and you have to respect that.

Honour killings is the top of the iceberg that is abuse and oppression of women in many countries, that goes from no education or jobs, to taking beatings and arranged marriages.

Anyone of who even suggests it is OK because it what they do is vile in my eyes.
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Old 8th November 2012, 05:14 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I do not subscribe to your negative attitude and total respect to all of these campaigns to stop honour killings

http://www.stophonourkillings.com/

http://www.irinnews.org/Report/26461...honour-killing

http://commit.tigweb.org/wake-up-cam...honor-killings

there are others as well.

In Scotland there has been many a male who has found himself locked up for domestic violence who comes from a country were such and honour killings are accepted. They make appeals, as do their wives that it is their culture and no action should be taken against the husband. The response is it is not acceptable in Scotland and you have to respect that.

Honour killings is the top of the iceberg that is abuse and oppression of women in many countries, that goes from no education or jobs, to taking beatings and arranged marriages.

Anyone of who even suggests it is OK because it what they do is vile in my eyes.
It is not OK. I have never said it is 'OK'. I have also said earlier that if they commit these crimes in another country they have moved to, they should be punished to the full extent of the law of that country - just as in the example you gave in Scotland.

My point is how do you propose to stop this from happening in other cultures, and how do you justify interfering with another culture? What gives you the right to tell these people how to conduct their lives, just because you don't like it?

Many Islamic cultures don't like our Western culture. What would your reaction be if an Islamic Delegation visited Scotland and said that your way of life was disgusting to them and they wished to see Sharia Law imposed on Scotland? Would you like that?
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Old 8th November 2012, 05:25 AM   #80
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I have shown you one way by supporting local campaigns to stop it.

Honour killings and suppression of women is way worse than anything we get up to in our Western Culture that Muslims may not like. They get upset about pineapples being labeled Mohammad. That is clearly different form pouring acid over and killing a daughter who brings supposed shame when she was raped by a male relative.

People in our own Western Culture thankfully stepped in and campaigned against something wholesomely evil that our culture was doing and stopped it. Slavery.
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