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Tags honor killing , islam , pakistan , traditional societies

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Old 9th November 2012, 07:09 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
'Allowed'?! That IS their culture. You make it sound like it was a conscious decision on the part of all males to become sexists a few years ago.

Rewind our culture 1000 years; were we being deliberately sexist in our treatment of women or was it just the cultural norm? Are you seriously suggesting that every male was deliberately sexist?
No one is saying you're incorrect in much what you type; the wiggle is what to do to bring about change, since a number of us have witnessed change in less time than might be imagined.
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:23 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
There's your quote from the perspective of a culture that believes killing a female child is the only way to maintain family honour.

I merely used the Chinese as an example of a large, powerful nation that wouldn't have too much trouble 'policing the world' if they wanted to. The question I'm raising is not why they would do it, but what if they DID do it - what would give them the right to do so?
That is a fail as female nudity is not on the same level as killing them in the name of a misplaced honour.

If you are such the expert, why do they not kill the rapists sibling, the one who really has shamed the family by being a incestuous rapist?
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:25 AM   #163
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When I started in police work back in the late 60s, working predominantly in a lower-middle-class neighborhood full of industrial workers, domestic assaults and abuse were very, very common.
The scenario was so similar as to be almost comical; Friday night hubby would take his paycheck to the bar, get snortin' drunk, then come home and the inevitable fight with the wife would end up with the house torn up and the lady of the house at least beaten up and sometimes hospitalized.
This was so common that during a trip to the local supermarket on Monday you'd see a large percentage of the checkout ladies sporting fresh makeup to cover black eyes and bruises.
It was unusual to go a weekend without a report, and the vast majority of these incidents are not reported.
The women never prosecuted. Not during the 10 years I was on that department. Not one. I had women who were hospitalized, who suffered detached retinas, broken jaws, teeth knocked out....
We had a mandatory three-day "cooling off" period back then before warrants could be applied for.
You'd call the woman on the third day.... They were no longer interested in prosecution. Hubby was the only support for the family. He'd apologized. He'd bought gifts. He'd promised not to do it again....
All those tired old things you see them putting into the plot-lines of SVU....All dead-on true.
Homicides were not uncommon.

Then, in the late 70s, the domestic-abuse laws were (finally) changed. Now, if there is even the slightest evidence of an assault, the husband is arrested. And it's a serious charge; not a "common assault" such as used to be the case.
There are ongoing consequences.
As a result, the level of domestic violence has considerably dropped off, and though it's still a problem, it seems to us in police work that this notion that it's unacceptable behavior is becoming common knowledge in the communities.
One can only hope....
I can't speak as to how deeply this sort of behavior is part and parcel of human nature and a by-product of the way domestic situations are structured and societal pressures and all that...
I have read enough to know that spousal abuse, spousal murder, psychological abuses, and all those related things are common all over the world.
I listened to an NPR segment on the problem in Japanese society... Apparently very bad, with the women up until recent times virtually powerless.
Likewise in various Latin countries; Brazil being singled out in several articles with an extremely high homicide rate and until recently almost no prosecution for homicides committed "in the heat of passion".
There may be human societies free of this; I don't know.
The anthropologist Marvin Harris speculated that domestic abuse started once we moved into discrete housing; where things could be done behind closed doors rather than in front of the whole tribe....

Last edited by Bikewer; 9th November 2012 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:26 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Actually working for me, with me, and around me are:

Three Iraqis (one muslim, 2 assyrian)

2 Pakistani muslims

2 Indian hindis

1 Indian muslim

Syrian assyrian

A number of catholic Mexicans

3 pentecostal Mexicans.

I've worked with, for and around a number of different Middle-Eastern (and beyond) cultures for nearly 40 years; my MIL worked and lived in Kuwait and Saudi for a number of years and I'm friends with her friends as it were.

I am sadly only bi-lingual in Spanish.

Resume's resume so to speak.

You may now continue with your regularly scheduled imagined superiority.
Imagined superiority? You're the one suggesting that all people of a certain culture are sexists by choice, and that they should adhere to your values.

Let's just say that in the last 4 years I have spent nearly 2 in Afghanistan, and leave it there.

I speak a tiny amount of Pashto, but have always spoken to the Afghan males through an interpreter, as these people do not speak a single word of English. They are so far removed from what we would consider society, they would not even recognise a can of coke. These are some of the most hospitable people I have met, and they would go hungry in order to feed me and my group to ensure their reputation.

These same people who have absolutely no ill-will towards Westerners, opened fire on an American patrol. Luckily, nobody was killed, and an extremely tense situation was avoided. Why did these people open fire on the Americans? Because one of the soldiers copped a mouthful of dust and turned his head and spat. Just as they were passing the village mosque. He didn't spit ON it, he accidentally spat in that direction. Honour demanded that he be killed for that insult. It was certainly nothing personal, and nothing to do with race, etc. That is simply their way of life.

The same person who would leave himself hungry to feed me, as a matter of honour, pride and reputation treated his wife like a servant. Are you, Mr "I'm Absolutely Qualified To Judge An Entire Culture Based on Meeting Some Immigrants, and Knowing a Friend of a Friend Who Once Spent a Year in the Middle East" seriously going to tell me this man - and many, many like him - was deliberately being sexist for kicks, and it was nothing to do with the culture he was raised in?
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:34 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Imagined superiority? You're the one suggesting that all people of a certain culture are sexists by choice, and that they should adhere to your values.

Let's just say that in the last 4 years I have spent nearly 2 in Afghanistan, and leave it there.

I speak a tiny amount of Pashto, but have always spoken to the Afghan males through an interpreter, as these people do not speak a single word of English. They are so far removed from what we would consider society, they would not even recognise a can of coke. These are some of the most hospitable people I have met, and they would go hungry in order to feed me and my group to ensure their reputation.

These same people who have absolutely no ill-will towards Westerners, opened fire on an American patrol. Luckily, nobody was killed, and an extremely tense situation was avoided. Why did these people open fire on the Americans? Because one of the soldiers copped a mouthful of dust and turned his head and spat. Just as they were passing the village mosque. He didn't spit ON it, he accidentally spat in that direction. Honour demanded that he be killed for that insult. It was certainly nothing personal, and nothing to do with race, etc. That is simply their way of life.

The same person who would leave himself hungry to feed me, as a matter of honour, pride and reputation treated his wife like a servant. Are you, Mr "I'm Absolutely Qualified To Judge An Entire Culture Based on Meeting Some Immigrants, and Knowing a Friend of a Friend Who Once Spent a Year in the Middle East" seriously going to tell me this man - and many, many like him - was deliberately being sexist for kicks, and it was nothing to do with the culture he was raised in?
Who said for kicks? But it is indeed by choice because I've witnessed that choice changing.

It seems to me that perhaps you're more interested in being right on the internet than much of anything else.

But again, I'm biased in favor of not honor murdering.

I'll leave it to Mr. Right on the Internet to correct any gross errors I may have typed.
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:34 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That is a fail as female nudity is not on the same level as killing them in the name of a misplaced honour.
Oh god, you really don't get it do you?! Of course it isn't to US! How do you think one of these guys would react if his daughter walked down the main village street in a bikini?!

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
If you are such the expert, why do they not kill the rapists sibling, the one who really has shamed the family by being a incestuous rapist?
You. Have. Got. To. Be. Kidding. Me.

Because it's not his fault! The daughter was probably leading him on, but that's by the by. She has to die, because she is no longer pure; no man will touch her, and is therefore a HUGE source of shame and dishonour! His culture demands she be killed!
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:37 AM   #167
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It amazing what some people will do for a free lunch.
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:37 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Who said for kicks? But it is indeed by choice because I've witnessed that choice changing.

It seems to me that perhaps you're more interested in being right on the internet than much of anything else.

But again, I'm biased in favor of not honor murdering.

I'll leave it to Mr. Right on the Internet to correct any gross errors I may have typed.
I am also against Honour Killing.

Ah, so it's Ad Homs and a bit of poisoning the well instead of addressing any of the points I made? Suit yourself.
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:39 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It amazing what some people will do for a free lunch.
OK; you don't get it. Understood.
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:39 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Oh god, you really don't get it do you?! Of course it isn't to US! How do you think one of these guys would react if his daughter walked down the main village street in a bikini?!



You. Have. Got. To. Be. Kidding. Me.

Because it's not his fault! The daughter was probably leading him on, but that's by the by. She has to die, because she is no longer pure; no man will touch her, and is therefore a HUGE source of shame and dishonour! His culture demands she be killed!
Yeh, right

I don't care that you were given a free lunch and so you now defend their culture as if you are the only one who really understands it.
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:41 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
I am also against Honour Killing.

Ah, so it's Ad Homs and a bit of poisoning the well instead of addressing any of the points I made? Suit yourself.
I agree with some of your points.

I don't agree when you stomp your feet and insist I agree because you know all sides of the equation, because you don't.
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:43 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Yeh, right

I don't care that you were given a free lunch and so you now defend their culture as if you are the only one who really understands it.
Oh dear god... You cannot be serious. I have had free lunches in Kosovo, Bosnia and Afghanistan, for varying reasons. The point - which you simply cannot see - is not that I ate free, but the emphasis these people place on honour and reputation.

I despair that I had to even explain that.
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:46 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
I agree with some of your points.

I don't agree when you stomp your feet and insist I agree because you know all sides of the equation, because you don't.
I wasn't stomping my feet. I'm pointing out to you that in my experience actually among these type of cultures, there is no such thing as 'sexism' by choice. It is absolutely culturally second nature.

I'm not about to get into a pissing contest over it.
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:50 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
I'm not about to get into a pissing contest over it.
That's kinda rich.
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:54 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
That's kinda rich.
Well when you write-off an entire culture incorrectly based on limited experience, in order to prove your point, you didn't leave me much of a choice.
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:54 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Not the greatest source, this is an issue world wide, but it stems mainly from the Middle East

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#South_Asia

Honor killings are directed mostly against women and girls and are most prevalent in Middle Eastern and South Asian Islamic cultures.

It really is about power and honour

"A complicated issue that cuts deep into the history of Arab society. .. What the men of the family, clan, or tribe seek control of in a patrilineal society is reproductive power. Women for the tribe were considered a factory for making men. The honour killing is not a means to control sexual power or behavior. What's behind it is the issue of fertility, or reproductive power."

"The right to life of women in Pakistan is conditional on their obeying social norms and traditions."

"... the predominantly Kurdish area of Turkey, has so far shown that little if any social stigma is attached to honor killing. It also comments that the practice is not related to a feudal societal structure, "there are also perpetrators who are well-educated university graduates. Of all those surveyed, 60 percent are either high school or university graduates or at the very least, literate."

It is purely about the culture system and honour and there appears to be no economic or religious belief reason behind it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izzat_%28honor%29

"Izzat (Hindi-Urdu Farsi: इज़्ज़त or عزت) refers to the concept of honor prevalent in the culture of North India and Pakistan.[1] It applies universally across religions (Hindu, Muslim and Sikh), communities and genders.[2][3][4] Maintaining the reputation of oneself and one's family (especially women) is part of the concept of izzat, as is the obligatory taking of revenge when one's izzat has been violated."
Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Oh dear god... You cannot be serious. I have had free lunches in Kosovo, Bosnia and Afghanistan, for varying reasons. The point - which you simply cannot see - is not that I ate free, but the emphasis these people place on honour and reputation.

I despair that I had to even explain that.
I despair that you have not read the research into the topic I did at the very start of this thread. I understand izzat and I have enjoyed middle eastern people's great hospitality. I have also cringed at the way the women are sometimes treated by the men.

I despair that you are presently arguing from a point where you think you are the only one who gets this.
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:56 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Well when you write-off an entire culture incorrectly based on limited experience, in order to prove your point, you didn't leave me much of a choice.
Again, your opinion is yours.

Have a good time thinking you're right on the internet.

ETA:

Just a wiggle about "writing off an entire culture," because frankly the comment pisses me off; I'm commenting on observations I've made. You have no frikken clue about the cultures I associate with, break bread with, drink with; how *********** dare you assume anything based on an internet conversation in which you claim a correspondent is lacking understanding. I understand quite a bit, and I experience quite a bit and my Iraqi, Pakistani, Mexican and other friends and coworkers are fine fellows, with some odd quirks and a few rather noxious beliefs.

I would imagine they think the same about me.

Last edited by Resume; 9th November 2012 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 9th November 2012, 07:59 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Again, your opinion is yours.

Have a good time thinking you're right on the internet.
It speaks volumes that your only response to that has been an Ad Hom.

Enjoy the rest of your day!
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:01 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I despair that you have not read the research into the topic I did at the very start of this thread. I understand izzat and I have enjoyed middle eastern people's great hospitality. I have also cringed at the way the women are sometimes treated by the men.

I despair that you are presently arguing from a point where you think you are the only one who gets this.
Then going by your replies above I can only conclude that you're exercising an ill-judged sense of humour; trolling; or back-pedalling.
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:02 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Well when you write-off an entire culture incorrectly based on limited experience, in order to prove your point, you didn't leave me much of a choice.
That is an interesting point.

If we right off the honour killings, domestic violence, lack of education for women and inequality between the sexes, are we righting off the whole culture?
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:03 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Again, your opinion is yours.

Have a good time thinking you're right on the internet.

ETA:

Just a wiggle about "writing off an entire culture" because it pisses me off. You have no frikken clue about the cultures I associate with, break bread with, drink with; how *********** dare you assume anything based on an internet conversation in which you claim a correspondent is lacking understanding.
I didn't assume anything. It's all there in black and white where you left it.
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:04 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Then going by your replies above I can only conclude that you're exercising an ill-judged sense of humour; trolling; or back-pedalling.
The feeling is mutual.
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:13 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
I didn't assume anything. It's all there in black and white where you left it.
As are your observations which you imagine are the correct ones.

You don't like it when people disagree with your opinions, do you?
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:17 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The feeling is mutual.
OK. I can point out several examples of you appearing to troll. If you show me yours, I'll show you mine.
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:18 AM   #185
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I think it's important to note here that NO ONE is expressing support for honor killings. The issue here is the idealist moral judgment being cast on the members of a particular culture (or more properly, cultures) for living within the expectations and confines of that culture.

It is easy for me to say that I wouldn't kill my daughter for dishonoring my family, sitting here in a culture where family honor carries little weight, but it would take a level of courage far outside of the bell curve to openly defy one of my own major cultural taboos. There isn't a lot of free will involved here. The "moral" condemnation of people who's morality is vastly different from our own is like condemning a person for not using the same monetary system we do.

No one is advocating that the horrible practice be allowed to continue unchecked. What is being argued is that culture can be changed from within, and trying to change if from without is generally counterproductive.
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:20 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That is an interesting point.

If we right off the honour killings, domestic violence, lack of education for women and inequality between the sexes, are we righting off the whole culture?
Rather than a pissing contest, which you declined earlier, how about continuing with the topic?

Would their whole culture collapse if they stopped hour killings?
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:20 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
As are your observations which you imagine are the correct ones.

You don't like it when people disagree with your opinions, do you?
It doesn't bother me in the slightest. Believe it or not, it doesn't even bother me when people resort to Ad Homs and hot air because they've run out of argument, but can't bear to stop typing.
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:24 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Rather than a pissing contest, which you declined earlier, how about continuing with the topic?

Would their whole culture collapse if they stopped hour killings?
I was coming to your point, but I had to nip out. I'm also aware I seem to have missed some of your other comments among the flurry.

So... No, of course their culture wouldn't collapse, and I have never suggested it would. My point is, it is their culture - can you tell me who or what gives us the mandate to police those elements of it that don't conform to our standards?
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:25 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Rather than a pissing contest, which you declined earlier, how about continuing with the topic?

Would their whole culture collapse if they stopped hour killings?
Most likely it would if you eliminated the entire concept of family honor.
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:26 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
I think it's important to note here that NO ONE is expressing support for honor killings. The issue here is the idealist moral judgment being cast on the members of a particular culture (or more properly, cultures) for living within the expectations and confines of that culture.

It is easy for me to say that I wouldn't kill my daughter for dishonoring my family, sitting here in a culture where family honor carries little weight, but it would take a level of courage far outside of the bell curve to openly defy one of my own major cultural taboos. There isn't a lot of free will involved here. The "moral" condemnation of people who's morality is vastly different from our own is like condemning a person for not using the same monetary system we do.

No one is advocating that the horrible practice be allowed to continue unchecked. What is being argued is that culture can be changed from within, and trying to change if from without is generally counterproductive.
Oh god thank you... I thought I was going mad. Am I that bad at putting my point across?!
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:28 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
I think it's important to note here that NO ONE is expressing support for honor killings. The issue here is the idealist moral judgment being cast on the members of a particular culture (or more properly, cultures) for living within the expectations and confines of that culture.

It is easy for me to say that I wouldn't kill my daughter for dishonoring my family, sitting here in a culture where family honor carries little weight, but it would take a level of courage far outside of the bell curve to openly defy one of my own major cultural taboos. There isn't a lot of free will involved here. The "moral" condemnation of people who's morality is vastly different from our own is like condemning a person for not using the same monetary system we do.

No one is advocating that the horrible practice be allowed to continue unchecked. What is being argued is that culture can be changed from within, and trying to change if from without is generally counterproductive.
There is a Satanic presence who has been expressing understanding to the point of sympathy for honour killings and misrepresenting others such an aquatic monster by claiming they know nothing and want to force change by external measures.

Our societies have undergone huge changes for the better for women's rights and welfare in the past 50 years. Go further back and women had few rights and were their husbands property and would be disowned for a child out of wedlock, whilst the man got off scot free.
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:35 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There is a Satanic presence who has been expressing understanding to the point of sympathy for honour killings
Enough. Show me where I have expressed sympathy with regard to Honour Killings, or condoned them in any way, or withdraw that comment and apologise.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
and misrepresenting others such an aquatic monster by claiming they know nothing and want to force change by external measures.
Your quote above this one demonstrates how little you appear to understand what I am saying.
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:36 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
I was coming to your point, but I had to nip out. I'm also aware I seem to have missed some of your other comments among the flurry.

So... No, of course their culture wouldn't collapse, and I have never suggested it would. My point is, it is their culture - can you tell me who or what gives us the mandate to police those elements of it that don't conform to our standards?
The same one that made us put an end to slavery in our own Western World. That saw serdom end in Russia. That meant campaigns against head hunting have worked to a high degree in China as imposed by the Chinese. Or how Sati was banned by the British in India in 1829, but even before that certain Indian rulers banned it from happening.
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:40 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There is a Satanic presence who has been expressing understanding to the point of sympathy for honour killings and misrepresenting others such an aquatic monster by claiming they know nothing and want to force change by external measures.

Our societies have undergone huge changes for the better for women's rights and welfare in the past 50 years. Go further back and women had few rights and were their husbands property and would be disowned for a child out of wedlock, whilst the man got off scot free.
LOL @ "Satanic presence"

No, what the Great Satan and I are saying is that calling it an immoral act is a completely meaningless statement. It's like saying contracts and sales are invalid if not transacted under a full moon. Our definition of "morality" is based on our rather lax social structure. We all like it, but it's not the only one out there. There are much more rigid social structures with much greater emphasis on family and community cohesion. Likewise, their definition of "morality" is based on their social framework. You can't just jump in and pull one single item out without upsetting the entire applecart. A lot of things have to change in order for this one item to be excised. I would go on more, but I have to get the kids to school...back soon.
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:46 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The same one that made us put an end to slavery in our own Western World. That saw serdom end in Russia. That meant campaigns against head hunting have worked to a high degree in China as imposed by the Chinese. Or how Sati was banned by the British in India in 1829, but even before that certain Indian rulers banned it from happening.
No, you're not answering my question. Listing a series of historical events doesn't answer the question; who or what gives us the mandate to police elements of foreign cultures that don't meet our standards?
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:47 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Enough. Show me where I have expressed sympathy with regard to Honour Killings, or condoned them in any way, or withdraw that comment and apologise.



Your quote above this one demonstrates how little you appear to understand what I am saying.
You have been saying we have no right to interfere in the culture of honour killings. So honour killings will remain, unless that culture itself decides to change.

Considering how long such cultures have been going that seems very unlikely. The existing internal campaigns in those cultures to stop honour killings have only come about because of the influence of the West, as women have seen there is another way and they are not at fault when they glance at a boy or get raped by their brother. I have shown links to the UN and Oxfam supporting the campaigns in those cultures. I have found nothing of a campaign that sprang up without external influences.

So if you say leave them alone as we have no right or mandate, by doing so you say the honour killings will just have to continue.

Then you point out that in other ways their culture is acceptable, such as the duty of hospitality as if that further supports your argument not to interfere.

I say that is wrong and we should interfere, but only with the part that is clearly unacceptable no matter what they (as in the men rather than the women as they have no influence over what happens) think.
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:51 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
LOL @ "Satanic presence"

No, what the Great Satan and I are saying is that calling it an immoral act is a completely meaningless statement. It's like saying contracts and sales are invalid if not transacted under a full moon. Our definition of "morality" is based on our rather lax social structure. We all like it, but it's not the only one out there. There are much more rigid social structures with much greater emphasis on family and community cohesion. Likewise, their definition of "morality" is based on their social framework. You can't just jump in and pull one single item out without upsetting the entire applecart. A lot of things have to change in order for this one item to be excised. I would go on more, but I have to get the kids to school...back soon.
I understand it is immoral to us and not to them. In any case there are very rigid social structures elsewhere in the world, including in the Middle East, where honour killings are not accepted.

We upset our own apple cart to the benefit of the whole of society by abolishing slavery. We recognised ourselves that it was wrong and did something about it. I do not see why we should wait around for those cultures who honour kill to do the same. It is called learning from your mistakes.
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:55 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
It doesn't bother me in the slightest. Believe it or not, it doesn't even bother me when people resort to Ad Homs and hot air because they've run out of argument, but can't bear to stop typing.
No, what bothers you are observations that disagree with your predetermined conclusion. You ought to consider them because I've discovered that when doing so, you often learn something.

I highly recommend it.
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Old 9th November 2012, 08:56 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
No, you're not answering my question. Listing a series of historical events doesn't answer the question; who or what gives us the mandate to police elements of foreign cultures that don't meet our standards?
My point is that no one person or thing gives us the mandate. History has shown us that certain events and persons in the right place and time cause a tipping point where a society changes. Rather than wait to for that to happen in the likes of Afghanistan, we are right to take action to try and influence and cause that tipping point right now.
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Old 9th November 2012, 09:00 AM   #200
SatansMaleVoiceChoir
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You have been saying we have no right to interfere in the culture of honour killings. So honour killings will remain, unless that culture itself decides to change.

Considering how long such cultures have been going that seems very unlikely. The existing internal campaigns in those cultures to stop honour killings have only come about because of the influence of the West, as women have seen there is another way and they are not at fault when they glance at a boy or get raped by their brother. I have shown links to the UN and Oxfam supporting the campaigns in those cultures. I have found nothing of a campaign that sprang up without external influences.

So if you say leave them alone as we have no right or mandate, by doing so you say the honour killings will just have to continue.
So where was I showing sympathy?

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Then you point out that in other ways their culture is acceptable, such as the duty of hospitality as if that further supports your argument not to interfere.
Please show me where I said any aspect of their culture was acceptable. I'll wait.

I used the duty of hospitality - and other examples - to show how deeply ingrained the concept of honour and reputation is in their culture; not to suggest that this is - or any aspect of their culture is - acceptable. Do you now understand?
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