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Old 22nd November 2012, 11:53 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
This is not worth replying to (its also largely incoherent).
You're the one who applied the word "probably", and later as "discussed to death" to fly off on some tangential rant, right?
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Old 22nd November 2012, 11:55 AM   #362
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Avalon, do you think Xtians act more morally than atheists?
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Old 22nd November 2012, 12:01 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
I will also say that I'm confused of this response. All I can gather at this point is a massive anthropomorphizing of 'science'. Can anyone elucidate?
When in doubt, attack?
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Old 22nd November 2012, 12:14 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
The first is whether good and evil are arbitrary. They're not -- that is to say, what is good and what is evil is hard-wired into the fabric of reality.
I admit I skipped a page or two...did we get to the part where Avalon backed up this claim with actual evidence or at least something more than a tortured analogy?
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Old 22nd November 2012, 12:18 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles View Post
I admit I skipped a page or two...did we get to the part where Avalon backed up this claim with actual evidence or at least something more than a tortured analogy?
We haven't got to that part yet.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 12:25 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Garnabby View Post
When in doubt, attack?
Are you implying that I'm attacking you? Or is science attacking theism or what?

With no snark, I am trying to figure out what your point is. If you don't care to attempt to clarify your statements, that's okay, but please don't presume that everyone else understands you because I happen to be the only one to declare my confusion.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 12:25 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
We haven't got to that part yet.
Nor ever will.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 01:01 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
We haven't got to that part yet.
Cool. I haven't missed anything yet.

Do you never wonder why the theists are so damn keen to let us in on their big secrets? They know all this stuff, they seem like they want me to believe it too, but they never quite get round to putting the cards on the table and showing me what they promise.

I guess they're busy people.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 01:02 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles View Post
Cool. I haven't missed anything yet.

Do you never wonder why the theists are so damn keen to let us in on their big secrets? They know all this stuff, they seem like they want me to believe it too, but they never quite get round to putting the cards on the table and showing me what they promise.

I guess they're busy people.
Delusions shared are delusions multiplied.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 01:03 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles View Post
Cool. I haven't missed anything yet.

Do you never wonder why the theists are so damn keen to let us in on their big secrets? They know all this stuff, they seem like they want me to believe it too, but they never quite get round to putting the cards on the table and showing me what they promise.

I guess they're busy people.
Their only evidence is a primitive version of Harry Potter so they don't have many cards to put on the table.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 02:40 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
How's willful ignorance working out for you?
Yours? It's frustrating, I admit, but I won't give up on you. I'm ever hopeful that you'll give up your childhood delusions.

Quote:
It must be boring talking to people without bothering to actually listen to anything they say.
I'll have to take your word for it.

Quote:
I guess the satisfaction you get for tripping them up with your simplistic questions makes up for it.
Not as much as the satisfaction you get from not answering them. How can questions trip up the truth?

Quote:
He shouldn't be.
No, I hold no illusions that you'll be able to do more than make unfounded assertions.

Ok, enough word play. Any chance of you actually providing evidence for your favorite brand of sky daddy and that obeying its whims is a universal good?
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Old 22nd November 2012, 03:13 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Their only evidence is a primitive version of Harry Potter so they don't have many cards to put on the table.
Every time they put their cards on the table we see they're bluffing. Oddly they still try to claim the pot.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 03:22 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Every time they put their cards on the table we see they're bluffing. Oddly they still try to claim the pot.
Nothing sadder than when a liar starts believing their own lies.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 05:02 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Are you implying that I'm attacking you? Or is science attacking theism or what?
Well, i think that stuff would be more overly-anthropomorphic than someone who usually refers to himself as "i", and (above) declares that humans per se "take themselves [beyond] too-seriously".

Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
If you don't care to attempt to clarify your statements, that's okay.
Not sure that that's what you, or the others, really want. It's odd how everyone has "made up its mind", but while "the jury is still out". Eg, the "I'm okay, you're okay" series of books puts that time frame at about 4 to 5 years of age. And, has to literally be millions of long-forgot (but "endlessly" paraphrased) message-board pages scattered across the internet... and scarcely a sincere reply of the sort, "My god, I didn't know that. I was such a fool. Thank you for sharing."

Beyond what i have written here, in its limited scope, skipping to an answer at the back of an algebra book, well, isn't quite the same as to an actual working theory of everything. How could such be even the work of one author, let alone one's to "lay title to"? But mainly, people like to "make their own mistakes", perhaps an odd "excuse" for not really looking for such in specific, or even in general, anyway.

And i like to openly "talk to myself" a lot. Motivation, and sometimes to jiggle something into place (to finally discover what that something was).

P.S. No philosophers/scientists were killed in the researching of this post. Lol.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 05:10 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Nothing sadder than when a liar starts believing their own lies.
Or, when you realize that you have to first know the truth.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 05:29 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Garnabby View Post
Or, when you realize that you have to first know the truth.
What truth would that be?
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Old 22nd November 2012, 05:49 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles View Post
Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
The first is whether good and evil are arbitrary. They're not -- that is to say, what is good and what is evil is hard-wired into the fabric of reality.

I admit I skipped a page or two...did we get to the part where Avalon backed up this claim with actual evidence or at least something more than a tortured analogy?

The magical stuff the religious believe can't be backed up with actual evidence. Unfortunately tortured analogies are pretty much all the faithful have. Also unfortunately, the typical theist doesn't seem to have the honesty to simply admit their silly beliefs are a matter of faith and can't be supported with evidence.

The answer to your question is no actual evidence has been, or ever will be provided. We will not get an honest, reasoned response from AvalonXQ, and the assertion will remain unsupported.

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Nothing sadder than when a liar starts believing their own lies.

You can say that again.
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Old 23rd November 2012, 01:26 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Garnabby View Post
You're the one who applied the word "probably", and later as "discussed to death" to fly off on some tangential rant, right?


Well that just continues to be "incoherent".

There's nothing left to discuss. The inescapable fact is that scientists do not normally reference earlier philosophers, because the earlier philosophical beliefs are not directly relevant to the science .
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Old 23rd November 2012, 03:48 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
You still aren't answering the question that is asked. Is it moral behavior to commit genocide and murder millions in a global flood?
Yes, if the innocent are sent to heaven which a just God would do. The bible says God is just.
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Old 23rd November 2012, 04:02 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Bart Ehrman believes Jesus certainly existed, so Christians (who believe morality comes from Jesus) can claim morality does not come from an imaginary being (imaginary being was the wording mentioned in the quote I responded to.)
Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Does his belief {Ehrman} make the existence of Jesus more likely?
Depends on how much you value the opinion of skeptic Bart Ehrman.

If Barack Obama said he saw an alien in his bedroom last night, I would think it would be more likely to be true than if some unknown person off the street said the same thing to me.
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Old 23rd November 2012, 04:30 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Yes, if the innocent are sent to heaven which a just God would do. The bible says God is just.
The bible says a lot of things.
So does the koran, the torah and every other religious text.
Proof.. that's where they are short on.

Coming back to your little godwin.
You claim that without absolute morality we cannot judge the nazi regime for its crimes.
Yet I cannot help but notice you never explained why appearantly the absolute morality in germany during the nazi years was different from the absolute morality of the western world, as there were no major revolts in germany during that time, indicating noone really felt immoral acts were being performed.
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Old 23rd November 2012, 04:31 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Yes, if the innocent are sent to heaven which a just God would do. The bible says God is just.
Quite an important little "if" there.......

The existence or otherwise of that "if" can be used by terrorists and despots to justify the mass murder of civilians, by your logic.

Mike
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Old 23rd November 2012, 04:51 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Yes, if the innocent are sent to heaven which a just God would do. The bible says God is just.
Literally, kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out!

That being the case its probably best just to slaughter newborn babies before they get the chance to sin too much.
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Old 23rd November 2012, 06:56 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Yes, if the innocent are sent to heaven which a just God would do. The bible says God is just.
Is it moral behavior to fly an airplane into a building killing 3000 if god says it is just?
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Old 23rd November 2012, 06:57 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Depends on how much you value the opinion of skeptic Bart Ehrman.
That's a good point. Do you value the opinion of Bart Ehrman?
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Old 23rd November 2012, 07:01 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Yes, if the innocent are sent to heaven which a just God would do. The bible says God is just.
So really abortion just means all those souls go straight to heaven without ever experiencing the pain and suffering of the world or being exposed to the possibility that they will fail to accept Jesus as their backstage pass to the pearly gates.

Properly viewed, abortionists may save more souls than Jesus, and may be more moral than Jesus to boot. THEIR sacrifice is to burn in hell for all eternity, while Jesus just dropped in for a couple of days, said "the hell with this" and split.

Or, since they're saving all those souls, maybe a just God sneaks them into heaven too. In which case, I guess they're not QUITE as moral as Jesus, but still exemplary role models.
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Old 23rd November 2012, 09:39 AM   #387
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The imperfections in the mammalian reproductive process sends 50% of all those conceived to heaven, within about the first month after conception.
Lots of sin-free zygotes up there.
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Old 23rd November 2012, 02:51 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
The imperfections in the mammalian reproductive process sends 50% of all those conceived to heaven, within about the first month after conception.
Lots of sin-free zygotes up there.
Must be hard for them to sing God's praise, though.
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Old 23rd November 2012, 09:48 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Garnabby View Post
And i like to openly "talk to myself" a lot. Motivation, and sometimes to jiggle something into place (to finally discover what that something was).
Okay, I'll just let you two get back to it then.
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Old 24th November 2012, 08:34 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
The inescapable fact is that scientists do not normally reference earlier philosophers, because the earlier philosophical beliefs are not directly relevant to the science.
More faulty logic, to say the least, lol.
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Old 24th November 2012, 08:37 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Okay, I'll just let you two get back to it then.
Thank you, the pleasure's all mine.
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Old 24th November 2012, 08:38 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
What truth would that be?
There are no absolutes, except for what absoluteness is... everything.
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Old 24th November 2012, 08:57 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Garnabby View Post
There are no absolutes, except for what absoluteness is... everything.
Can I get a different fortune cookie, this one doesn't make any sense.
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Old 24th November 2012, 09:37 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Garnabby View Post
There are no absolutes, except for what absoluteness is... everything.
The Magic 8 Ball says:

Reply hazy Try again.
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Old 25th November 2012, 12:04 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Garnabby View Post
There are no absolutes, except for what absoluteness is... everything.
A suffusion of yellow.
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Old 25th November 2012, 05:33 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
That's a good point. Do you value the opinion of Bart Ehrman?
Well {Bart Ehrman} says "Jesus certainly existed" in his latest book. He also said there are solid reasons to believe Judas betrayed Jesus. I agree with those. He also says that he is an agnostic leaning more to Jesus not being divine -- I don't agree with that.

Last edited by DOC; 25th November 2012 at 05:46 AM. Reason: add Ehrman's name
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Old 25th November 2012, 05:36 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Well he says "Jesus certainly existed" in is latest book. He also said there are solid reasons to believe Judas betrayed Jesus. I agree with those. He also says that he is an agnostic leaning more to Jesus not being divine -- I don't agree with that.
So he's right when he agrees with you and wrong when he doesn't?

Seems like the only opinion you value is your own.
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Old 25th November 2012, 07:12 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Well {Bart Ehrman} says "Jesus certainly existed" in his latest book. He also said there are solid reasons to believe Judas betrayed Jesus. I agree with those. He also says that he is an agnostic leaning more to Jesus not being divine -- I don't agree with that.
Only valuing someone's opinion when it agrees with your own is very shallow and minimizes your argument. Since you've cited Bart Ehrman, you must also agree with his opinion that there was no divine Jesus. I agree with you, Jesus may have existed. Many Jesusii may have existed as itinerant preachers since the name Jesus and itinerant preachers abounded. I also agree with your citation of Bart Ehrman's opinion that none of them was divine.

Now that we've established that Jesus wasn't divine, can you answer the original question of why you believe a mortal man is the basis for morality? As a follow on question, where did morals come from before that?
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Old 25th November 2012, 08:04 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Now that we've established that Jesus wasn't divine, can you answer the original question of why you believe a mortal man is the basis for morality? As a follow on question, where did morals come from before that?

And why was that particular mortal man a better model for morality than, say, Mohandas Gandhi, or even Genghis Khan?
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Old 25th November 2012, 08:10 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
And why was that particular mortal man a better model for morality than, say, Mohandas Gandhi, or even Genghis Khan?
Xtians steadfastly ignore the moral nature of other religions/cultures. It invalidates "No Jesus, no good!".
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