ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 13th November 2012, 07:58 AM   #161
godless dave
Great Dalmuti
 
godless dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,027
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Which ones in particular do you have in mind? Link me to them or lay out the model in detail so we can skeptically evaluate it scientifically.
They could have loaded the stones on wagons.

They could have slid them on the ground.

They could have rolled them on logs.

What more detail do you need? Moving stones is like moving any other heavy, solid object.
__________________
"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm
godless dave is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 08:09 AM   #162
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
tsig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 33,950
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Because I can't reach it, or think of how else to reach it easily without getting help.
Your needs do not create an obligation on anyone else but I'd suggest a topical ointment, if itch persists or suddenly increases in intensity, see a health professional.
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 08:10 AM   #163
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,164
Has anyone seen my 2 foot thick razor blade? I gotta go to Lebanon.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 08:21 AM   #164
godless dave
Great Dalmuti
 
godless dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,027
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Apart from the occasional informative link, everything else is just noise and a waste of time.
Maybe that's because your question is a waste of time.

We already know how the Romans quarried and moved stones, and how they built things with them.

We already know how older cultures quarried, moved, and built with stones.
__________________
"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm
godless dave is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 08:22 AM   #165
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,164
The OP missed this one, which should really have ended the thread.

Originally Posted by Moss View Post
Just to be a bit of an asinus ager : Vitruvius and his de architectura. Book ten specifically. People underestimate Roman engineering a lot.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 08:23 AM   #166
Zeuzzz
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,240
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
We already know how the Romans quarried and moved stones, and how they built things with them.
We haven't even gotten to the evidence of who built them and when yet. We are still stuck on the science.
Zeuzzz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 08:28 AM   #167
godless dave
Great Dalmuti
 
godless dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,027
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
We haven't even gotten to the evidence of who built them and when yet. We are still stuck on the science.
Why does that matter?

What "science" are we stuck on? Are you familiar with the expression "re-inventing the wheel"? It's appropriate here, since whoever built this structure may well have used wheeled vehicles to transport the stones and cranes with pulleys to lift them.
__________________
"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm
godless dave is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 08:28 AM   #168
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 12,012
Are we still in Roman times?
Cause I like the bronze balls solution. (Both meanings.)

Modern forms get us to 20,000 psi.
marplots is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 08:46 AM   #169
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 12,012
Now that I think about it, I wouldn't roll it at all. On the few occasions where I had to move very heavy things by myself, walking it seemed much easier.

That guy who builds monuments in his back yard had the right idea -- spin to win.
marplots is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 08:47 AM   #170
GeeMack
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,241
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Reading is my primary way of getting information. Documentaries take too long for information and they tend to be biased, I learn't that very soon in my degree and stuck just to the designated textbooks. I have cognitive dissonance in this area, having read one book from a Roman historian about these, and another from an historian that dated them at 4000-8000BC. In my mind, the Roman historians evidence was circumstantial and the other books evidence was much more empirical when it came to stone-masonry and the potential cultural architects of the stones.

We have not even gotten into that part though, I am still waiting for a) a complete model to be proposed by someone, that has any evidence of it being used b) A model with specifics that I can actually apply physics and maths to to see if it works.

You have been given several plausible methods for moving and lifting massive stones. The mystery is not in the ancients constructing large buildings from huge stones. The mystery is in a contemporary adult human being in the year 2012 who has apparently been through enough education to read and write in English, who has undoubtedly been exposed to rudimentary science and likely the physics of simple machines, and who cannot assemble a few methods already provided into a complete model.

Like we used to say when someone would ask for a cigarette then follow immediately by asking for a light: You want a kick in the chest to get you started, too?

Quote:
Geemack is still keeping his top secret solution top secret, so it's more a waiting game for his easy 'one minute solution with six people', at this point.

I just figure if it takes you 100 times longer than the minute it took me, I'm 100 times smarter. How many minutes has it been now?

Quote:
Since another user kindly worked out some data on the properties of wood I was able to expand the model and test it's veracity. But no one else has given a model, just a few words and ideas.

And your "expansion" of the model was not an analysis. It was a hand-waved dismissal.

Quote:
I'm stumped for ideas extremely incredulous and willfully ignorant, the canal idea is redundant the stone is too heavy (I worked it out) and the pig fat idea is a nice idea but has yet to be applied to a mode of transportation for me to factor in what effect the lesser friction would actually have.

Edited by kmortis:  Removed personal comments


Edited by kmortis:  Removed previously moderated content and response to same


Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Why not?

I haven't dismissed any out of hand.

Wrong. That is exactly what you've been doing.

Quote:
I have just done the science for two of them and shown them highly unlikely.

No, you haven't. As I said, your pretending to be all sciency about it does not constitute doing science.

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Castro, Senor Pointy and Dancing David are the only people that have actually helped this thread progress.

I'm trying to help the thread progress by helping you learn how to do this critical thinking stuff the JREF is so famous for. But applying it is something that you simply must do for yourself.

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
We haven't even gotten to the evidence of who built them and when yet. We are still stuck on the science.

Again, no. The person stuck on the science is not we. Fact is, we could quite probably lift that Stone of the Pregnant Woman with just the 39 other people who have participated in this thread and a pile of shovels. And we wouldn't need your help at all!

Last edited by kmortis; 14th November 2012 at 06:11 AM.
GeeMack is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 08:49 AM   #171
Tolls
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,559
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Are we still in Roman times?
Cause I like the bronze balls solution. (Both meanings.)

Modern forms get us to 20,000 psi.
That's why I mentioned the Thunderstone a couple of pages ago.
I mean that's more than 50% heavier than the Baalbek stones that were actually moved to the site. Moved 10x further overland.

Since people have shown that log rollers would be no problem in terms of crushing, then this is solved.

The ground is (at worst) flat between the two sites, and possibly drops. Just look at a topographical map.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 09:23 AM   #172
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 35,989
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
You just made a mistake on the last one, that would be for 0.25% not 0.01%

In reality though considering geometrical constraints on the rollers, to be practical they would have to be as near to perfectly circular as possible. If they were perfectly circular then your 0.01 number would be more close to the truth, and the psi for that would be 165,000 psi.
Sure but the rollers are wood, they do not have to be perfect, and in fact the contact areas are likely to closer to 10-15% and therefore the pressure would be much less.

There is a reason the rollers work, they do not have to be perfect at all, they are likely to be oblate at best. And at 10-15% the pressure si going to be well withing the parameters, now actually teh situation is considerably more complex, you have the contact area of the rollers and that surface is teh one that bears the weight, this was just a cuff estimate.

Why would a compressed log have anywhere near .01% in contact at the top and ground, you mean .0001 the surface is in contact? More like .1 to .15

Do you really think a rubber tire on a car only contacts .0001?
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 09:25 AM   #173
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 35,989
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Appeal to authority noted.
Ah, that is why you never cited why a 800 ton object would crush wooden rollers.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 09:37 AM   #174
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 35,989
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
A model that works, scientifically. I'm waiting for Geemacks model he's been keeping up his sleeve for so long and been so vocal about in this thread. You can wait with me if you want. Any plausible model that holds up to scrutiny is fair game.
And you still havene't shown at all why wooden rollers, a smooth earth road and ramped earth wouldn't work at all, given that they could have even had a pully, much less blocks or winches.

Wood to wood which is the coefficieant for sledge to rollers is given as wood-wood 0.4-0.6 (unlubricated) 0.15...0.2 (lubricated)

http://www.tribology-abc.com/abc/cof.htm

so that would be (160 tonnes x .4) for lateral motions or 40 tonnes, so 40 humans = 1 tonne, 80 humans=.5 tonne, 160:.25, 320:.125, 640:.0625=126.5 lbs, 1280 humans=63.5 lbs.

So if you get 1280 humans pulling on a rope tied around the stone, and it is on a sledge on wooden rollers, they each have to pull 63.5 lbs.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 09:42 AM   #175
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,164
Here's some interesting analysis:

http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/extr...transportation
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 10:57 AM   #176
Tomtomkent
Philosopher
 
Tomtomkent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,690
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Appeal to authority noted.
Nope. An appeal to authority would be if I said "X knows more about this than you, so you are wrong."

What I instead did was asked if you had contacted any of the groups who study such topics while you were researching your webpage.

I assuming from this response the answer is none. Otherwise it would have been reasonable for you to say "I spoke to these groups and discount their experiments or proposed methodology because..."
__________________
@tomhodden

Never look up an E-book because this signature line told you. Especially not Dead Lament (ASIN: B00JEN1MWY). Or A Little Trouble (ASIN: B00GQFZZQW).
Tomtomkent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 10:58 AM   #177
Tomtomkent
Philosopher
 
Tomtomkent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,690
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Evidence would be great thanks. This statement seems contrary to many sources.
You mean other than the souce being discussed in the post I was responding directly to?
__________________
@tomhodden

Never look up an E-book because this signature line told you. Especially not Dead Lament (ASIN: B00JEN1MWY). Or A Little Trouble (ASIN: B00GQFZZQW).
Tomtomkent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 10:59 AM   #178
Zeuzzz
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,240
Edited by kmortis:  Removed personal comment


What do you think of Castros calculation above?

I think he's pretty much proved that rolling is feasible, as 13mm of contact per roller seems within the adequate elastic limit of the wood. The wood would be at it's breaking point, and this is technically the upper limit, so extreme care would have to be taken lowering on the megalith simultaneously and totally evenly to each log. The smoothness of the road would also factor in but that would become nearly negligible once the stone gains momentum and reaches a constant velocity. The only mild issue is the force needed for the initial period of acceleration, as long as the road can take it it should be easy to get to the base of the structure from there.

Last edited by kmortis; 14th November 2012 at 06:13 AM. Reason: Removed to comply with Rule 12
Zeuzzz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:01 AM   #179
Zeuzzz
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,240
Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
What I instead did was asked if you had contacted any of the groups who study such topics while you were researching your webpage.

I read up on archeologists and historians accounts of it. The only caveat for who I decided to get my information from was that they had to have personally visited the site themselves and not just read about it in a history book. That way you eliminate any print bias.
Zeuzzz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:02 AM   #180
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,164
Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
Nope. An appeal to authority would be if I said "X knows more about this than you, so you are wrong."

What I instead did was asked if you had contacted any of the groups who study such topics while you were researching your webpage.

I assuming from this response the answer is none. Otherwise it would have been reasonable for you to say "I spoke to these groups and discount their experiments or proposed methodology because..."
Copying and pasting large tracts of text from other websites isn't "researching" a webpage. Nearly every sentence on that page came from somewhere else, as you can easily tell by googling the sentences, and looking at the grammar and writing style vs. the OP.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:03 AM   #181
Tomtomkent
Philosopher
 
Tomtomkent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,690
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
What have you thought this thread has been about? The existence or non existence of a random hill next to the pregnant stone?! Really?
So why argue that there is no hill? Why ignore the fact there is a hill, which mean the stone could be moved my methods already described?
__________________
@tomhodden

Never look up an E-book because this signature line told you. Especially not Dead Lament (ASIN: B00JEN1MWY). Or A Little Trouble (ASIN: B00GQFZZQW).
Tomtomkent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:06 AM   #182
Silly Green Monkey
Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness
 
Silly Green Monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,819
Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Your article says 'bedrock'. What foundations would be below bedrock?
If they excavated the Roman temple down to bedrock as your article claims, on what other building's foundations could they be building? What foundations would be below bedrock?

According to the picture you posted, using the person as scale, there look to be gaps between those rocks big enough to shove my leg into.
__________________
Normal is just a stereotype.
Silly Green Monkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:10 AM   #183
Tomtomkent
Philosopher
 
Tomtomkent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,690
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
We haven't even gotten to the evidence of who built them and when yet. We are still stuck on the science.
Apart from all that Roman stuff found beneath the stones.

Roman stuff under an artefact= Arteface built during, or after the romans.

We already know how the Romans moved big stones.

You speak a lot about people not helping this thread progress, I would suggest that is because you yourself ignore or belittle others.

For example, I made two posts now directing you to actual archeaologists who know about this stuff, and asking who you contacted for your research. How about you answer those, or will it be an obstacle to admit you have not? Even after you have apparently made definate statements of why conventional methods would not work. I assume those statements were evidence based? Or just an assumption?

If you wish for the discussion to progress, you may actually want to start by finding out if your "mystery" is a mystery, if your claims to handwave and discount methods are valid, or just woo you may have recycled in good faith.
__________________
@tomhodden

Never look up an E-book because this signature line told you. Especially not Dead Lament (ASIN: B00JEN1MWY). Or A Little Trouble (ASIN: B00GQFZZQW).
Tomtomkent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:10 AM   #184
GeeMack
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,241
Edited by kmortis:  Removed previously moderated content and repose to same


Quote:
What do you think of Castros calculation above?

I think he's pretty much proved that rolling is feasible, [...]

Please remember, only one person here had an issue with the possibility of rolling. And it wasn't me. You recall that this stuff isn't such a mystery to those of us who have applied some critical thinking and who are aware of the work advantage provided by simple machines.

Quote:
[...] as 13mm of contact per roller seems within the adequate elastic limit of the wood. The wood would be at it's breaking point, and this is technically the upper limit, so extreme care would have to be taken lowering on the megalith simultaneously and totally evenly to each log. The smoothness of the road would also factor in but that would become nearly negligible once the stone gains momentum and reaches a constant velocity. The only mild issue is the force needed for the initial period of acceleration, as long as the road can take it it should be easy to get to the base of the structure from there.

So it's not a mystery to you any longer either. You see, despite your dedicated resistance, you have learned something.

Last edited by kmortis; 14th November 2012 at 06:14 AM.
GeeMack is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:11 AM   #185
Lukraak_Sisser
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,982
We will also never know what clothes these people wore, where they bought them, what they ate on the 35th day of construction, what they called their lovers in private and many many other things.
Does that mean we don't know the constructors existed?
The stones are there. There have been many methods suggested, all of which were available to the locals at the time, all of which have been proven to work up until recent times.
When we stopped using them because we invented better ways of moving stuff about.

The ancient cultures were every bit as ingenious as we are, but they did not have the accumulated data we now have. Because they *provided* that data in the first place. There is also the fact that while modern technology could easily move such rocks about, we no longer see any reason to do so.
Lukraak_Sisser is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:17 AM   #186
Tomtomkent
Philosopher
 
Tomtomkent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,690
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
I read up on archeologists and historians accounts of it. The only caveat for who I decided to get my information from was that they had to have personally visited the site themselves and not just read about it in a history book. That way you eliminate any print bias.
Yeah... Very good. But I asked who you contacted in your research.

Want to answer that one?

By the way, why is visiting a site a caveat for an experiment on the stress testing of wooden rollers? It seems an odd caveat for feasibility studies. Or for knowledge of the methods and materials used by ancient cultures to move large stones.

It is an unecessery bias to impede yourself with. What is it you think means that the laws of physics works differently in this particular location to other engineering projects?
__________________
@tomhodden

Never look up an E-book because this signature line told you. Especially not Dead Lament (ASIN: B00JEN1MWY). Or A Little Trouble (ASIN: B00GQFZZQW).
Tomtomkent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:19 AM   #187
Zeuzzz
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,240
Edited by kmortis:  Removed previously moderated content and response to same


Quote:
So it's not a mystery to you any longer either. You see, despite your dedicated resistance, you have learned something.

Everything is a mystery until you learn about it.

There are two ways to look at the world, one as if nothing is a miracle, the other is as if everything is a miracle. I should probably put that in quotes but I expect people know who said it.

If you don't think there are mysteries or unexplained miracles happening outside your knowledge base yet to be fully understood scientifically or rationally then you can get complacent in your own self importance.

Somewhere something incredible is waiting to be known.

Don't ask me where. But I'm gonna find it

Last edited by kmortis; 14th November 2012 at 06:14 AM.
Zeuzzz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:23 AM   #188
Tomtomkent
Philosopher
 
Tomtomkent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,690
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Everything is a mystery until you learn about it.
Yes. Which is why the "Boring" chap is actually encouraging you to learn by pointing you in the right direction instead of just stating the answer straight out.

Perhaps at some point you will answer my questions so we can see what you have actually done to learn about this other than allegedly copy and paste swathes of unattributed quotes.
__________________
@tomhodden

Never look up an E-book because this signature line told you. Especially not Dead Lament (ASIN: B00JEN1MWY). Or A Little Trouble (ASIN: B00GQFZZQW).
Tomtomkent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:23 AM   #189
godless dave
Great Dalmuti
 
godless dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,027
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
If you don't think there are mysteries or unexplained miracles happening outside your knowledge base yet to be fully understood scientifically or rationally then you can get complacent in your own self importance.
I'm sure there are countless mysteries outside my knowledge base.

How the Romans moved stones is not one of them.
__________________
"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm
godless dave is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:27 AM   #190
Lukraak_Sisser
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,982
Somehow electrical wires managed to end up in my ceiling. Its a mystery!

And there is this weird thing with what looks to be two long poles connected to two other long poles with a pivot with cross bars in between the long poles nearby, but I've not seen it used, so I have no clue what its for.

Seriously, the romans didnt even bother to leave records about building, thats how utterly mundane it was for them.
While there are probably mysteries out there, how to build big monuments is not among them.
Lukraak_Sisser is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:29 AM   #191
Zeuzzz
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,240
Who exactly built them is still largely a mystery though.
Zeuzzz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:33 AM   #192
Zeuzzz
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,240
Weirdly raising the huge blocks into place twenty foot up would require less effort than transporting them from the quarry. About half as much energy in total. Lift one side, add dirt. Lift the other, add dirt. Then slide into place after refining the edges.
Zeuzzz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:33 AM   #193
Tomtomkent
Philosopher
 
Tomtomkent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,690
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Who exactly built them is still largely a mystery though.
Evidence points towards Romans, unless you can offer alternate evidence or reasons to discount the possibility.

Why do you think it is particularly mysterious? Whom do you think is most likely?
__________________
@tomhodden

Never look up an E-book because this signature line told you. Especially not Dead Lament (ASIN: B00JEN1MWY). Or A Little Trouble (ASIN: B00GQFZZQW).
Tomtomkent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:34 AM   #194
Tomtomkent
Philosopher
 
Tomtomkent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,690
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Weirdly raising the huge blocks into place twenty foot up would require less effort than transporting them from the quarry. About half as much energy in total. Lift one side, add dirt. Lift the other, add dirt. Then slide into place after refining the edges.
Why does that appear weird to you?

How did you calculate the comparative energies?
__________________
@tomhodden

Never look up an E-book because this signature line told you. Especially not Dead Lament (ASIN: B00JEN1MWY). Or A Little Trouble (ASIN: B00GQFZZQW).
Tomtomkent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:36 AM   #195
Zeuzzz
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,240
Basic leverage and moments around the COG.

I think you are taking my use of the word weirdly way too literally.
Zeuzzz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:54 AM   #196
Tomtomkent
Philosopher
 
Tomtomkent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,690
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Basic leverage and moments around the COG.

I think you are taking my use of the word weirdly way too literally.
Well i seems odd you can compare which requires more energy before you have established what you consider viable methods. How do you know one task is not carried out in a far more efficient way, meaning although the base energy to move the block is higher, there is less wasted energy in implementation?
__________________
@tomhodden

Never look up an E-book because this signature line told you. Especially not Dead Lament (ASIN: B00JEN1MWY). Or A Little Trouble (ASIN: B00GQFZZQW).
Tomtomkent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:57 AM   #197
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 12,012
By the way, I forgot to ask: how do they know the stone is pregnant?
marplots is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 11:58 AM   #198
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,164
It has carvings for pickles and chocolate?
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 12:02 PM   #199
GeeMack
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,241
Last Thursday evening we were here...
Originally Posted by GeeMack - 8th November 2012, 10:46 PM View Post
I looked at the photo of that "Pregnant Stone" and thought for a moment about how I would get something like that let's say 20 feet off the ground and straddling a couple of upright stones one at each end. It took me about a minute to figure out a way to do it with a crew of a half dozen people and a couple of shovels. Period. No ropes, no timbers, no oxen, no rollers, and no magic or aliens required.
.. and today we arrive here...
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz - 13th November 2012, 12:33 PM View Post
Weirdly raising the huge blocks into place twenty foot up would require less effort than transporting them from the quarry. About half as much energy in total. Lift one side, add dirt. Lift the other, add dirt. Then slide into place after refining the edges.

You're getting closer, but you're still missing a crucial element. So far it only took you four and a half days, or roughly 6000 times longer than it took me, so far. But go ahead, continue. A high school football team could quite possibly raise that stone 20 feet in a few days. But pretty obviously they aren't going to just reach under one end and lift it up while a few of the guys shovel dirt under it.

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
What useful have you added to the thread then?

I prodded you to think instead of feeding you an answer to a relatively simple puzzle. Duh. Now try refining your explanation.

Oh, and you're welcome.
GeeMack is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2012, 12:34 PM   #200
Zeuzzz
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,240
Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
How do you know one task is not carried out in a far more efficient way, meaning although the base energy to move the block is higher, there is less wasted energy in implementation?

No one here has stated it. If they have and I have missed it then please point that out.
Zeuzzz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:15 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.