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Old 16th November 2012, 03:58 AM   #281
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I've just reread your FFB entry, Zeuzzz, and couldn't help noticing this:
Quote:
...There is tantalising evidence to show that some of the earliest archaeologists and European travellers to visit Baalbek came away believing that the Great Platform was much older than the nearby Roman temples.

For instance, the French scholar, Louis F licien de Saulcy, stayed at Baalbek from 16 to 18 March 1851 ... French archaeologist Ernest Renan, who was allowed archaeological exploration of the site by the French army during the mid nineteenth century.(40)
You rely on 19th century witnesses here.
Even that description by Michel Alouf comes from 1900
http://archive.org/details/geschichtevonba00alougoog
Why not look to more recent sources?

Apart from http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=200342
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Old 16th November 2012, 12:37 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Pouring!
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Old 16th November 2012, 02:13 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post

That was me. I was banned shortly after. It was hilarious. No freedom of speech or freedom of opinion if you disagree with a moderator on that forum. There is a moderator from there that posts here too, she finds the freedom of speech here highly annoying and constantly rants about it. Doubly amusing.
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Old 16th November 2012, 02:16 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Why not look to more recent sources?

Less cultural bias I find. If you visit something already 'knowing' the Romans built it what sort of conclusions do you think you are most likely to draw about who its architects were?
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Old 16th November 2012, 02:53 PM   #285
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Because those more recent that 'know' it have found the evidence to support what they 'know' rather than guessing or making it up to suit their own preconceptions.
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Old 16th November 2012, 03:45 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
That was me. I was banned shortly after. It was hilarious. No freedom of speech or freedom of opinion if you disagree with a moderator on that forum. There is a moderator from there that posts here too, she finds the freedom of speech here highly annoying and constantly rants about it. Doubly amusing.

Yeah. Persecution and censorship. Wahhh.

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Less cultural bias I find. If you visit something already 'knowing' the Romans built it what sort of conclusions do you think you are most likely to draw about who its architects were?

Have you been to the temple at Baalbek, observed it with your own eyes, done a hands-on, in person study of it? Or is everything you've written about it filtered through, let's see, how'd you word that?...
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
[...] the inherent print bias that is endemic in a lot of history books or educational systems.
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Old 16th November 2012, 03:49 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
Have you been to the temple at Baalbek, observed it with your own eyes, done a hands-on, in person study of it? Or is everything you've written about it filtered through, let's see, how'd you word that?...

In case you memory is really as bad as it appears, I will quote my previous reply to you, as it relates to print bias and forums.

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
No I am engaging in print bias myself here, but this is a forum not a historical record, I however am not contributing to print bias even if I am engaging in it, as I have selected only grassroot people that have not learn it only from books via print bias as my primary references.
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Old 16th November 2012, 04:10 PM   #288
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So the reply to this question...
Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
Have you been to the temple at Baalbek, observed it with your own eyes, done a hands-on, in person study of it?
... is this...
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
No I am engaging in print bias myself here, [...]
And as pakeha noted...
Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
You rely on 19th century witnesses here.
Even that description by Michel Alouf comes from 1900
http://archive.org/details/geschichtevonba00alougoog
Why not look to more recent sources?
You've written from sources with an inherent print bias. You admit to adding another layer of print bias on top of that. And there's over 100 years of advances in the sciences of archaeology and geology, and 100 years of historical data gathering and research since some of your sources wrote their print biased material.

Other than expressing incredulity and curiosity, is there any actual point to your pursuing this thread?
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Old 16th November 2012, 04:22 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Less cultural bias I find. If you visit something already 'knowing' the Romans built it what sort of conclusions do you think you are most likely to draw about who its architects were?
Are you saying the excavations realised at Baalbeck in the last 112 years are culturally biased and therefor worthless?
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Old 17th November 2012, 03:33 AM   #290
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I suppose he doesn't like it when the advances made by German and French archeology in the Middle East and Mediterranean result in less grandiose mystery.
Why am I so sarcastic on that point? Because among other institutions the Deutsches Archäologisches Institut and the relevant universities with their archeology departments (Among them Freiburg, Tübingen, Heidelberg, Leipzig and probably a lot of others I just haven't had that much contact with.) are not just going by book. They are both sponsors and participants of the excavations in the Middle East and the Mediterranean.
There are rarely any excavations in Iraq, Turkey, Libanon or Egypt going on that do not involve at least some of their archeologists.
Many advancements in dating technologies and stratigraphy are due to this involvement. Because they blend theory and practical application of theory.
I'm sorry, but I take their relevant authority over grassroots people any day of the week because I know what they do.
Disclosure: the latter is partially due to me being friends with some of the students and teachers of the aforementioned universities. I'll be honest on that.
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Old 17th November 2012, 12:22 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Don't read institutes. Take their views into consideration certainly. Read the accounts of people that have actually been there. Which is what I did and ended up with a very different picture than establishment views. All the text in the OP (or the link) is from people that have actually visited in person and studied it first hand. Avoid print bias at all costs and you can't go far wrong.
I have the impression what you've read are quotations of those 19th century writers cited in modern works.


Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
No I am engaging in print bias myself here, but this is a forum not a historical record, I however am not contributing to print bias even if I am engaging in it, as I have selected only grassroot people that have not learn it only from books via print bias as my primary references.
Again, are you quoting the writing of those people or citing references to them via Colin Wilson's work?
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Old 20th November 2012, 01:08 AM   #292
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Zeuzzz?
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Old 20th November 2012, 04:19 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Are you saying the excavations realised at Baalbeck in the last 112 years are culturally biased and therefor worthless?
Perhaps they can't be distorted to suit his beliefs?
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Old 20th November 2012, 08:07 AM   #294
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I have no beliefs. I've changed my opinion in this thread as soon as i'm presented with adequate evidence to the contrary.

What was the question?
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Old 20th November 2012, 08:12 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
What was the question?
Why you insist there are "mysteries" while you ignore the historical and archaeological record, instead focusing on crackpots who have "been there."
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Old 20th November 2012, 08:17 AM   #296
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Which "historical and archaeological record", from who and when, and with links to sources if you be so kind.
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Old 20th November 2012, 08:34 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Why you insist there are "mysteries" while you ignore the historical and archaeological record, instead focusing on crackpots who have "been there."
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Which "historical and archaeological record", from who and when, and with links to sources if you be so kind.
Dodge.

You were asked about mysteries and instead of answering you ask about records.

Until you tell us what the mysteries are no one can show you any records about them.
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Old 20th November 2012, 08:47 AM   #298
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Nope, you seem so sure of your views you should be backing up your thought processes with the hard evidence you based it on in the first place.

You can't shift the burden of proof to the person asking questions.
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Old 20th November 2012, 08:49 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Nope, you seem so sure of your views you should be backing up your thought processes with the hard evidence you based it on in the first place.

You can't shift the burden of proof to the person asking questions.
No. First what are the mysteries? It's your thread title. You've ignored every historical and archaeological cite in the thread, so I'm not wasting time there.
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Old 20th November 2012, 08:58 AM   #300
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Have a nice day.

The mystery is who built the huge stones that the Romans later built the temple of Jupiter on.
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Old 20th November 2012, 09:01 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Have a nice day.

The mystery is who built the huge stones that the Romans later built the temple of Jupiter on.
The Romans, unless you offer substantial evidence they did not or could not have laid the foundation.

Again, this thread is effectigvely hamstrung by your seeming reluctance to move beyond your bias and learn about the methods of stone cutting and moving methods of various cultures to see which is the best fit for an object. Instead you have your object and steadfastly insist there is a mystery because of your cherry picked sources.
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Old 20th November 2012, 09:03 AM   #302
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Evidence of me ignoring evidence please.

Maybe I missed it but I believe I have addressed each plausible piece of information people have posted.
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Old 20th November 2012, 09:03 AM   #303
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I never thought of stones as being "built." Am I missing something?
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Old 20th November 2012, 09:10 AM   #304
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The mined stones were built into a large structure.
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Old 20th November 2012, 09:16 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
The mined stones were built into a large structure.
OK. So your mystery is who mined (?), moved and laid the stones there? Specifically the foundation? How about a diagram or photo with an arrow indicating which stones are mysterious?
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Old 20th November 2012, 12:09 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
I'm not asking you to read minds. That would be magic. Figure it out. I did.
That's a pretty crappy way to respond. He's said he couldn't figure it out. Intellectual honesty suggests that you should either explain your answer or stop claiming that you know how it was done.
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Old 20th November 2012, 12:44 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Evidence of me ignoring evidence please.
Your statement that you only accept the evidence of writers who have been on site, which by necessity means you have not contacted any specialist in the mining of, or moving of, building materials in the Roman or Pre-Roman era who will likely be more familiar with the methodology of building and mining than those who are studying, and presumably specialised, in temples.
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Old 20th November 2012, 01:52 PM   #308
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Well, Zeuzzz, you have yet to show those mysterious stones are actually pre-Roman.

Several things you've neither answered yet nor commented on:
Originally Posted by pakeha View Post

You've also ignored my point here:
Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
I've just reread your FB entry, Zeuzzz, and couldn't help noticing this:

You rely on 19th century witnesses here.
Even that description by Michel Alouf comes from 1900
http://archive.org/details/geschichtevonba00alougoog
Why not look to more recent sources? ...

Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
I have the impression what you've read are quotations of those 19th century writers cited in modern works. ...
Again, are you quoting the writing of those people or citing references to them via Colin Wilson's work?
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Old 20th November 2012, 01:55 PM   #309
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FYI, that ingentaconnect link has a session ID, so doesn't work anymore.
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Old 20th November 2012, 02:03 PM   #310
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^
Thanks for the heads up!
here's a working link:
http://www.academia.edu/1154782/Mast...ose_buildings_
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Old 20th November 2012, 02:04 PM   #311
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Some things are harder to find than others:
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home..._num_54_1_6623

https://play.google.com/books/reader...thuser=0&hl=en

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00001/art00003

Have fun reading.

Harte

Last edited by Harte; 20th November 2012 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 20th November 2012, 03:27 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
That's a pretty crappy way to respond. He's said he couldn't figure it out. Intellectual honesty suggests that you should either explain your answer or stop claiming that you know how it was done.

Intellectual honesty suggests that you actually understand what has been discussed before you jump in with criticisms like that which are unfounded.
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Old 20th November 2012, 05:01 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Have a nice day.

The mystery is who built the huge stones that the Romans later built the temple of Jupiter on.
But the evidence shows Roman artifacts and methods all the way down. What stones are you talking about?
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Old 20th November 2012, 05:19 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Crikey I need a translator for you Dafydd.

We are talking about the non roman origins of the foundation that the Romans later built the temple of Jupiter on. The part of the building with the huge 800-1000 tonne blocks in it.

No I don't have another theory for moving the blocks past what has been suggested.

Do you?
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
But the evidence shows Roman artifacts and methods all the way down. What stones are you talking about?
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Old 20th November 2012, 05:34 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
Intellectual honesty suggests that you actually understand what has been discussed before you jump in with criticisms like that which are unfounded.
Well, no problem, then. I understood well enough to know that your response was horsepuckey.

Honestly, if you can't see anything wrong with repeating (at least thrice) that you know how they did it and he should figure it out and no, you won't tell him, then I guess I'm not sure what to say. From where I sit, that's not the response of an honest and forthright correspondent.

It's a perfectly childish tactic. Honestly, it is.
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Old 20th November 2012, 06:00 PM   #316
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To be fair, he's just trying to get Zeuzzz to think. This seems to be an admirable goal.
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Old 20th November 2012, 06:24 PM   #317
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Well I'm stumped as I've continually said, and I need a long awaited hand.

If the solution remains top secret then Geemack will have to go on ignore for not contributing anything educational on an educational forum.

Thanks for the above links, I'm looking into them.
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Old 20th November 2012, 06:26 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Well, no problem, then. I understood well enough to know that your response was horsepuckey.

Honestly, if you can't see anything wrong with repeating (at least thrice) that you know how they did it and he should figure it out and no, you won't tell him, then I guess I'm not sure what to say. From where I sit, that's not the response of an honest and forthright correspondent.

It's a perfectly childish tactic. Honestly, it is.
One should perhaps avoid using the word "horsepucky" in a post accusing somebody of a childish tactic....
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Old 20th November 2012, 06:55 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Well, no problem, then. I understood well enough to know that your response was horsepuckey.

Honestly, if you can't see anything wrong with repeating (at least thrice) that you know how they did it [...]

There's a word that describes an untrue comment like the one you made there.

Quote:
[...] and he should figure it out and no, you won't tell him, then I guess I'm not sure what to say. From where I sit, that's not the response of an honest and forthright correspondent.

The lack of honesty is in your misrepresenting what I've said.

Quote:
It's a perfectly childish tactic. Honestly, it is.

Honestly? It seems your notion of what constitutes honesty is somewhat different than that of the other participants here. Here's some helpful advice: Go re-read the thread, most particularly all my comments, before posting again here. Your persistent misrepresentation of what I've written is not an honest way to engage in a dialog, and frankly it looks pretty foolish.
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Old 20th November 2012, 07:06 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Well I'm stumped as I've continually said, and I need a long awaited hand.

Are you familiar with the work advantage we can get from using simple machines? It's physics. I think I mentioned how I learned about them sometime around 5th grade, but then the science classes I was in might have been slightly advanced.

Quote:
If the solution remains top secret then Geemack will have to go on ignore for not contributing anything educational on an educational forum.

Education has little to do with feeding people answers and much to do with helping them learn how to think.
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