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Tags civil rights , gender identity , law enforcement issues , privacy , transgender

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Old 11th November 2012, 08:29 PM   #1
Mercurial Artism
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Pre-op Transwoman Using Women's Locker Room; Parents of Schoolgirls Object

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/C...177055311.html

Quote:
OLYMPIA, Wash. -- A controversial decision by Evergreen State College officials to let a transgender student to use the women's locker room has brought up issues of civil rights, state laws and how best to protect children.

At the center of the issue is a 45-year-old student who was born a man but identifies as a woman. The student uses the women's locker room at the college's indoor pool. Angry parents contacted the police after a young girl saw the transgender student naked inside the locker room.

As a compromise, the college put up "privacy curtains" and allowed the transgender student to continue using the women's facilities.

...
Apparently they have girls ages 6-18 using the college's facilities. In general, I support trans people being recognized as the gender they're transitioning to, but I have serious reservations about the enforcement of gender identity laws in this particular type of situation. There is no way to tell whether someone you don't know personally is truly trans or just a straight man dressing up and pretending he's trans to use the women's locker room (unless they'd had surgery). If a trans person hasn't had genital surgery, you just have to go on their word that they're telling the truth that their gender identity is female. Trans women would tell the truth and say yes; perverts would lie and say yes.
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Old 11th November 2012, 08:50 PM   #2
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Wow. A bunch of girls saw a naked guy.

I'm sure they're traumatized for life, now.
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Old 11th November 2012, 08:59 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Wow. A bunch of girls saw a naked guy.

I'm sure they're traumatized for life, now.
What was a guy doing in the women's locker room? And naked, too? Isn't that illegal?!?
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Old 11th November 2012, 09:01 PM   #4
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It's a college. Why were all those little girls there????
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Old 11th November 2012, 09:04 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
It's a college. Why were all those little girls there????
Local elementary and high schools will often use nearby college facilities to teach swimming classes.

EDIT: I remember doing it very vividly as a child in elementary school because I had, and still have, man-boobs and was embarrassed to have to take my shirt off in front of the other children.
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Old 11th November 2012, 09:04 PM   #6
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Angry parents contacted the police after a young girl saw the transgender student naked inside the locker room.

Usually when a grown man willfully exposes himself to little girls, there is an arrest, sentence, and said grown man is placed on a sex offender registry so everyone can be aware of his predilections.

Apparently being transgender means you're above the law. How nice. Maybe tomorrow I'll go down to the gym at the local universities and wander around the women's locker room. "No, don't mind me and my wang, I'm female where it counts: on the inside. Pass the shampoo?"
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Old 11th November 2012, 09:09 PM   #7
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Usually when a grown man willfully exposes himself to little girls, there is an arrest, sentence, and said grown man is placed on a sex offender registry so everyone can be aware of his predilections.
In general, I agree. But a college locker room is a place where all kinds of adult people are often walking around in various stages of undress. So, to me, the question is why the girls were in there?

Sharing the swimming pool and such is fine; but why a locker room?

Unless times have changed a lot, college girls brought college guys...by the droves. So the fact there was a naked guy in the women's locker room -transgender or not- is no reason (to me) for surprise. In fact, I'm more shocked there was only one.
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Old 11th November 2012, 09:15 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Wow. A bunch of girls saw a naked guy.

I'm sure they're traumatized for life, now.
Worst thing ever, right?
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Old 11th November 2012, 09:27 PM   #9
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Eh... Flame suit on.

Call me crazy... But I reckon that boys are boys and girls are girls and the difference between the two is not limited to genitals. I have been absolutely hounded on this forum for admitting that gender exists.

I can understand why a person would be physically one gender and 'feel' that they are another, that alone shows that gender is more than sexual organs.

But if you got the boy parts you go to the boys locker room. I don't see why this is a violation of his civil rights. If I, a boy inside and out, were to use the girls locker room I would be (and should be) prosecuted. But if I am a pre-op transgender it is suddenly OK? I don't get that. I think the girls were not out of line to say that they were made to feel uncomfortable.

Come on man, just use the boys locker room.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
<snip>

EDIT: I remember doing it very vividly as a child in elementary school because I had, and still have, man-boobs and was embarrassed to have to take my shirt off in front of the other children.
They are not man boobs. They are pecs.
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Old 11th November 2012, 09:36 PM   #10
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Quote:
But if you got the boy parts you go to the boys locker room. I don't see why this is a violation of his civil rights. If I, a boy inside and out, were to use the girls locker room I would be (and should be) prosecuted. But if I am a pre-op transgender it is suddenly OK? I don't get that. I think the girls were not out of line to say that they were made to feel uncomfortable.
I do agree with that. He should use the men's locker room. But...I still say if you send your young daughter into a college locker room where you can reasonably expect to find naked adult women, whatever their virgin eyes get filled with is...YOUR problem.

Of course, someone suggested he willfully exposed himself, and that does put a different complexion on it. But he was just stepping out of the showers or changing in an area designated for it, I have no idea why he should be expected to know the room was suddenly going to fill with children.
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Old 11th November 2012, 09:52 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
What was a guy doing in the women's locker room? And naked, too? Isn't that illegal?!?
DragonLady was mistaken. It wasn't a guy. It was a girl who happened to have a penis and testicles.

Get with the times, dude!
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Old 11th November 2012, 09:54 PM   #12
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Just an FYI on this, the transgender women I know think this person should be bounced out of the locker room.
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Old 11th November 2012, 10:09 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Just an FYI on this, the transgender women I know think this person should be bounced out of the locker room.

I think he should be prosecuted.

Maybe some time in a jail cell will motivate him to pull his head out of his ass.
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Old 11th November 2012, 11:04 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I do agree with that. He should use the men's locker room. But...I still say if you send your young daughter into a college locker room where you can reasonably expect to find naked adult women, whatever their virgin eyes get filled with is...YOUR problem.
I imagine grown naked men are not a sight that parents can reasonably be expected to foresee their children encountering in the womens' locker room.
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Old 12th November 2012, 01:40 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by foxholeatheist View Post
Eh... Flame suit on.

Call me crazy... But I reckon that boys are boys and girls are girls and the difference between the two is not limited to genitals. I have been absolutely hounded on this forum for admitting that gender exists.

I can understand why a person would be physically one gender and 'feel' that they are another, that alone shows that gender is more than sexual organs.

But if you got the boy parts you go to the boys locker room. I don't see why this is a violation of his civil rights. If I, a boy inside and out, were to use the girls locker room I would be (and should be) prosecuted. But if I am a pre-op transgender it is suddenly OK? I don't get that. I think the girls were not out of line to say that they were made to feel uncomfortable.

Come on man, just use the boys locker room.



They are not man boobs. They are pecs.
In order to get qualification for Genital Reassignment Surgery, most transexuals NEED to live as their 'target' gender for a year or so (in most jurisdictions). M2F transexuals HAVE to use the girl's locker room, despite them still having boy parts.

I don't know whether or not making others feeling comfortable is a valid excuse at all. I felt uncomfortable to undress numerous times in my life because of the presence of a creepy person, but was required to do so anyway.
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Old 12th November 2012, 01:46 AM   #16
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The person had two options: Use the boys room or girls room. He, physically at least, was a boy.

Using the boys room would have been a none event. Using the girls room exposed him to young girls.

I have never heard of that requirement. What does it mean to live as your target gender? Alternate how you pee? I think common sense should play a role here and this person did not use it.
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Old 12th November 2012, 03:00 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by foxholeatheist View Post
But if you got the boy parts you go to the boys locker room. I don't see why this is a violation of his civil rights. If I, a boy inside and out, were to use the girls locker room I would be (and should be) prosecuted. But if I am a pre-op transgender it is suddenly OK? I don't get that. I think the girls were not out of line to say that they were made to feel uncomfortable.

I know I'm not supposed to bring up homosexuality in a transgender thread. So just to be clear I'm not equating anything here. Different things entirely. Etc.

Anyway this* is very close to an argument I had months ago with, of course, a republican/christian/anti-Obama person.

They claimed they were against gays in the military, the ending of DADT, solely because the armed forces were now going to have to have 4 barracks at every base instead of two. The old ones: one for men, one for women. And 2 new ones: one for lesbians, one for gays.




*"this" being the topic of this thread, not foxholeatheist's post, obviously. That is just the post that made me remember it.
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Old 12th November 2012, 03:20 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by mikedenk View Post
Usually when a grown man willfully exposes himself to little girls, there is an arrest, sentence, and said grown man is placed on a sex offender registry so everyone can be aware of his predilections.

Apparently being transgender means you're above the law. How nice. Maybe tomorrow I'll go down to the gym at the local universities and wander around the women's locker room. "No, don't mind me and my wang, I'm female where it counts: on the inside. Pass the shampoo?"
The think is it all depends on the situation. You don't see nudist camps being raided for that. There is a difference between exposing yourself for sexual reasons and because you are changing.

why not charge the men some of them their own fathers exposing themselves to boys in the mens locker room?
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Old 12th November 2012, 03:48 AM   #19
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Why is it assumed this person is "pre-op"? I saw nothing in the OP link that indicated this. Many trans people are no-op.
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Old 12th November 2012, 04:05 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by foxholeatheist View Post
Eh... Flame suit on.

Call me crazy... But I reckon that boys are boys and girls are girls and the difference between the two is not limited to genitals. I have been absolutely hounded on this forum for admitting that gender exists.

I can understand why a person would be physically one gender and 'feel' that they are another, that alone shows that gender is more than sexual organs.

But if you got the boy parts you go to the boys locker room. I don't see why this is a violation of his civil rights. If I, a boy inside and out, were to use the girls locker room I would be (and should be) prosecuted. But if I am a pre-op transgender it is suddenly OK? I don't get that. I think the girls were not out of line to say that they were made to feel uncomfortable.

Come on man, just use the boys locker room..
Unless you're gay if course.
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Old 12th November 2012, 04:08 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by foxholeatheist View Post
The person had two options: Use the boys room or girls room. He, physically at least, was a boy.

Using the boys room would have been a none event. Using the girls room exposed him to young girls.

I have never heard of that requirement. What does it mean to live as your target gender? Alternate how you pee? I think common sense should play a role here and this person did not use it.
Depends on what non genital surgery and drugs she had. She might well have breasts which would then be an issue with the mens room.
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Old 12th November 2012, 04:37 AM   #22
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And what about the hermaphrodites? Where are they supposed to shower?

I say **** it. Have one communal shower area: Everyone gets in, gets their business done. You can frisk people outside for phones/cameras if you need to.
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Old 12th November 2012, 05:03 AM   #23
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Hypothetically, should a dude who looks like a naked woman, breast implants and all, like totally passable, be walking around nude and showering in the men's locker room that's open to young boys?

What about a transgender woman with a surgically added johnson? Should they shower where little girls can see them?

Is it simply the chance this transgender might be attracted to young children, but you don't mind the chance as much if they're homo sexually attracted to children?

Should all adults be segregated from children in locker rooms, or just the opposing gender? If it's just the opposing gender, why? Is it the children seeing the naked body of the other sex, or is it the risk of an adult being sexually attracted to children?

If it's the risk of an adult being sexually attracted to children, then why let same sex adults and children see each other naked in locker rooms?

Why single out transgenders as possible perverts?

Or if it's just seeing the other sex naked and not a matter of sexual attraction, why let children see people who look like the opposing gender naked but just aren't because you know they aren't?

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Old 12th November 2012, 05:05 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by commandlinegamer View Post
And what about the hermaphrodites? Where are they supposed to shower?

I say **** it. Have one communal shower area: Everyone gets in, gets their business done. You can frisk people outside for phones/cameras if you need to.
Ah, the Battlestar Galactica route.
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Old 12th November 2012, 05:13 AM   #25
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hm....Didn't they have a teachers changing room? We did in my swimclass. If a girl (or boy) were having body issues, they would get a permission to use said room after the teacher. Couldn't the same have been done here?
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Old 12th November 2012, 05:54 AM   #26
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Eeeeek! A penis!
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Old 12th November 2012, 05:59 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by elgarak View Post
In order to get qualification for Genital Reassignment Surgery, most transexuals NEED to live as their 'target' gender for a year or so (in most jurisdictions). M2F transexuals HAVE to use the girl's locker room, despite them still having boy parts.
Or what?
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Old 12th November 2012, 06:00 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by The_Fire View Post
hm....Didn't they have a teachers changing room? We did in my swimclass. If a girl (or boy) were having body issues, they would get a permission to use said room after the teacher. Couldn't the same have been done here?
In college? I have only seen things like that in elementary or high school locker rooms. I have not seen this at pools, gyms and so on. I would be surprised to see it at a college.
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Old 12th November 2012, 06:28 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Local elementary and high schools will often use nearby college facilities to teach swimming classes.
Local elementary and high schools stop that, and the danger that schoolgirls might see a weewee is gone. Problem solved.
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Old 12th November 2012, 06:29 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by elgarak View Post
In order to get qualification for Genital Reassignment Surgery, most transexuals NEED to live as their 'target' gender for a year or so (in most jurisdictions). M2F transexuals HAVE to use the girl's locker room, despite them still having boy parts.
And who is going to find out? Do their doctors have private investigators following them to make sure they live as the other gender 24/7? I'm a woman who has used the men's room plenty of times, and where I pee has nothing to do with my gender.
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Old 12th November 2012, 06:45 AM   #31
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The fact that this is a trans woman only serves to obfuscate the main issue: locker rooms are horribly designed and offer no privacy whatsoever. It's not a good environment for anyone who, for one reason for another, doesn't want to see other people or doesn't want be seen.

But as far as sexual abuse is concerned, if you are OK with an adult cis woman being naked around your kids, but not with an adult trans woman or even with a cis man, the question you have to be asking isn't, "What do I need to do to enforce my feelings?" You need to ask yourself why the hell you are comfortable with the adult cis woman being naked there. Have you seen any data suggesting they are less likely to be abusive? Or conversely: do you have any data to support the myth that trans women are more likely to be predatory in bathrooms, or that "pretending to be trans" is an actual strategy used by rapists in the real world?

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Old 12th November 2012, 06:46 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by commandlinegamer View Post

I say **** it. Have one communal shower area: Everyone gets in, gets their business done. You can frisk people outside for phones/cameras if you need to.

This. One species, one song and shove your sexual hang ups up the orifice of your choice.
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Old 12th November 2012, 07:47 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by commandlinegamer View Post
And what about the hermaphrodites? Where are they supposed to shower?

I say **** it. Have one communal shower area: Everyone gets in, gets their business done. You can frisk people outside for phones/cameras if you need to.
This. If you're worried about someone getting their rocks off seeing you naked, it seems ridiculous to assume it would only be members of the opposite sex you need to worry about.
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Old 12th November 2012, 08:13 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by elgarak View Post
In order to get qualification for Genital Reassignment Surgery, most transexuals NEED to live as their 'target' gender for a year or so (in most jurisdictions). M2F transexuals HAVE to use the girl's locker room, despite them still having boy parts.

I don't know whether or not making others feeling comfortable is a valid excuse at all. I felt uncomfortable to undress numerous times in my life because of the presence of a creepy person, but was required to do so anyway.
Pretty sure a clinic would not disqualify you from reassignment surgery because you used the men's locker room in order to avoid exposing your genitals to little girls. That would be fairly petty and unsympathetic. Any clinic or doctor in such a field will understand the legal issues in play here; they're not idiots.
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Old 12th November 2012, 08:20 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Sledge View Post
This. If you're worried about someone getting their rocks off seeing you naked, it seems ridiculous to assume it would only be members of the opposite sex you need to worry about.
It's more of a logical deduction thing. A naked woman in the women's locker room could be in there to perv at all the girls; but she could also be in there because it's the women's locker room and all females have to use it when using the pool. Conversely, there's no situation in which a male would ever need to be naked in the women's locker room, because there's a male locker room for that purpose; therefore, it is logical to deduce that a naked male in the women's locker room is there for prurient reasons.
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Old 12th November 2012, 08:30 AM   #36
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I know quite a few trans women who pass immaculately, but haven't had the surgery yet. Using the men's locker room causes them to involuntarily out themselves, and puts them at the very real risk of assaulted or murdered. I don't blame them for staying out of men's spaces.

The pre-op tg people I've known who use locker rooms will generally change in a private area, like a bathroom, to be as discrete as possible. I knew another person who wore her gym clothes under her regular clothes, so that she could put her things away in the lockerroom without showing bare skin at all.

Originally Posted by Half Centaur
Why single out transgenders as possible perverts?
Pretty much, as soon as there's a label you can apply to someone which makes them "the other" or "not in the rightful place", they are viewed with suspicious and malicious intent no matter who they are.

The belief that trans people are sexual predators in private spaces is not based on the actual behavior of trans people in private spaces. Its based on the irrational fear of "the other".

And, as often as I've heard the joke "I'm a man and I can just pretend to be a woman to gawk at boobies all day", those kinds of attitudes are harmful to tg people. It reinforces the predator stereotype, and undermines a person's transition as a careless random choice executed with no thought or tact whatsoever. In reality, if someone were to do that, they'd be arrested; if they don't have a history with a gender therapist, HRT, if no one can back them up that they're really living full time for some interval of time, they have no plausible deniability to claim that they weren't committing a crime, no plausible case that they were even transgender in the first place. (Odds are, even a cisgender woman gawking at boobies all day would be asked to leave for harassing others).

100 times out of 100, a trans person is more afraid of other people in the locker room (and justifiably so) than the other way around. Most of them just want to get in, get out as quickly as possible, without drawing attention to themselves or making others feel uncomfortable.
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Old 12th November 2012, 08:38 AM   #37
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If you have a big enough towel, what's the problem?

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Old 12th November 2012, 08:39 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Wow. A bunch of girls saw a naked guy.

I'm sure they're traumatized for life, now.
And yet, there is no problem when they sit down and watch something as awesome as the Walking Dead.

No wonder the rest of the world thinks Americans are crazy.

I dunno, I kinda do agree with the OP though. Who says a guy isn't acting like that on purpose? I know of someone who SAYS he's gay. But I am about 99.9% positive he's not.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The think is it all depends on the situation. You don't see nudist camps being raided for that. There is a difference between exposing yourself for sexual reasons and because you are changing.

why not charge the men some of them their own fathers exposing themselves to boys in the mens locker room?
I am not one bit surprised to see that the person behind the name "mikedenk" thinks it is illegal to "expose" yourself to a child.

I've already told him that is not true in another thread.

YMCA's across America have grown men showering while naked, and there are always little boys present. Literally: There. Is. Nothing. Wrong. With. That. Period.

Like I said, no wonder the rest of the world thinks Americans are nuts.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Eeeeek! A penis!
Nominated!

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Old 12th November 2012, 08:45 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Wow. A bunch of girls saw a naked guy.

I'm sure they're traumatized for life, now.
Ummm... I think the issue is more that the guy saw women/girls naked, rather than the other way around.

Not everyone is a "nudist" or is willing to let just anyone see them without clothes. Some people had concerns that a guy might be falsely using the "I'm really a woman trapped in a man's body" as a way to see naked females in the locker room.

Not sure how reasonable such a claim is... I'd have to know the number of people who well and truly are true transexuals, and compare that to the number of people who might falsely claim to be one.
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Old 12th November 2012, 08:53 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
I know quite a few trans women who pass immaculately, but haven't had the surgery yet. Using the men's locker room causes them to involuntarily out themselves, and puts them at the very real risk of assaulted or murdered. I don't blame them for staying out of men's spaces.

The pre-op tg people I've known who use locker rooms will generally change in a private area, like a bathroom, to be as discrete as possible. I knew another person who wore her gym clothes under her regular clothes, so that she could put her things away in the lockerroom without showing bare skin at all.


Pretty much, as soon as there's a label you can apply to someone which makes them "the other" or "not in the rightful place", they are viewed with suspicious and malicious intent no matter who they are.

The belief that trans people are sexual predators in private spaces is not based on the actual behavior of trans people in private spaces. Its based on the irrational fear of "the other".

And, as often as I've heard the joke "I'm a man and I can just pretend to be a woman to gawk at boobies all day", those kinds of attitudes are harmful to tg people. It reinforces the predator stereotype, and undermines a person's transition as a careless random choice executed with no thought or tact whatsoever. In reality, if someone were to do that, they'd be arrested; if they don't have a history with a gender therapist, HRT, if no one can back them up that they're really living full time for some interval of time, they have no plausible deniability to claim that they weren't committing a crime, no plausible case that they were even transgender in the first place. (Odds are, even a cisgender woman gawking at boobies all day would be asked to leave for harassing others).

100 times out of 100, a trans person is more afraid of other people in the locker room (and justifiably so) than the other way around. Most of them just want to get in, get out as quickly as possible, without drawing attention to themselves or making others feel uncomfortable.

While I mostly agree with what you said, I'd like to say that what the highlighted part is talking about actually, in my opinion, reinforces the predator stereotype of heterosexual males generally much more than cisgender people.
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