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#1 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,141
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A doctor on why late abortion should remain legal
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/the-...d-remain-legal
Dr Frances Marks worked as a child psychiatrist from 1975 to 1998. As a consultant at London hospital she advised on the impact of late abortions. My most memorable experience as a medical student occurred in the 1960s, some time before the 1967 Abortion Act made terminations legal in the UK. It was winter, 6am, and I was still asleep. The phone rang and a voice ordered me up to join the ambulance of the obstetric flying squad. We arrived at a cheap hotel in Finsbury Park, north London; our patient was a plump young girl with auburn hair and the creamy skin of a Rubens nude. She lay unconscious on a single bed, her bewildered parents to one side. The GP was a tired gaunt man, who told us that his examination indicated that she had had an illegal abortion some time in the last 48 hours. Her blood pressure was dangerously low. |
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#3 |
Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 4,222
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When late ones are not available, what is left but illegal ones?
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#5 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 41,834
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The reason late abortion should remain legal is that sometimes late terminations are the only humane way to deal with certain foetal abnormalities and situations which threaten the life of the mother.
Advocating for late abortions in order to pander to women too disorganised to sort themselves out during the first trimester is appalling. Rolfe. |
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#6 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 16,893
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Moreover, if abortions are illegal, then women will be less likely to avail themselves of all the services that medical care provides, which includes counseling that could actually help her resolve her issues without having to resort to abortion.
The last thing you want for a woman in dire straights and an unwanted pregnancy is to feel they need to resolve their problem on their own. She may feel her only recourse is to abort. However, if she can do it through a legally allowed process, she may be able to talk to people who can help her realize there are other options. IOW, keeping late term abortions legal may help reduce their numbers. |
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#7 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 41,834
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It may also encourage women to shilly-shally and procrastinate. Thus leading to the appalling situation where a healthy baby capable of being born alive and surviving is removed from the uterus and then killed.
There's a lot of euphemistic talk going on around this subject, for example describing a three-month foetus as a "ball of cells", which it certainly is not. There may be situations where killing a late-term foetus is the least worst option, but allowing that willy-nilly as a substitute for contraception is not one of them. Rolfe. |
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#8 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
Posts: 14,581
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#9 |
Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Emily's shop
Posts: 17,580
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In the vast majority of abortions after 18 weeks, the delay was due to the woman not knowing they were pregnant in the early stages:
http://www.mariestopes.org.uk/docume...20abortion.pdf It is hardly being "too disorganised to sort themselves out". |
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#10 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 41,834
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Fair enough, I agree that hard cases make bad law. I'm still not persuaded that this sort of situation is sufficient to open the door to all and sundry to delay a decision on a social abortion until the baby is viable.
Rolfe. |
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#11 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,455
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There's no 'may' about it. Clinics (in the UK at least) already do that.
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"Nature is floods and famines and earthquakes and viruses and little blue-footed booby babies getting their brains pecked out by their stronger siblings! ....Nature doesn't care about me, or about anybody in particular - nature can be terrifying! Why do they even put words like 'natural' on products like shampoo, like it's automatically a good thing? I mean, sulfuric acid is natural!" -Julia Sweeney |
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#12 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 41,834
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Also, I'm confused about the "remain" part. Termination isn't allowed after 24 weeks. If this is an argument that it ought to be, I have to say I'm not persuaded. It's a story about something that happened many years ago under entirely different circumstances, and I don't see its relevance to 2012 at all.
Rolfe. |
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#13 |
Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Emily's shop
Posts: 17,580
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Yes it is - but only in certain circumstances:
-if it is necessary to save the woman's life -to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman -if there is substantial risk that if the child were born, s/he would have physical or mental abnormalities and be seriously handicapped Also, by "late" abortions, the author seems to be referring to those performed between 20 and 24 weeks - in response to the suggestion that the limit be reduced to 20 weeks: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/the-...bortion-rights |
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#14 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 41,834
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Indeed, and quite right too. It wasn't clear to me that this was what the OP was referring to. If it was, I'm far from convinced that it's a good example to use.
Rolfe. |
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#15 |
Cythraul Enfys
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,089
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Since I fully and absolutely support abortion at any point the woman chooses that option, I am in full agreement!!!! I accept no kind of argument that provides for any left. AND I truly enjoy little kids!!!!!!!! That has no bearing on the woman's choice and my support of it!!
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#16 |
Cythraul Enfys
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,089
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DUPLICATE - by accident and lack of normal warning!!!
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#17 |
Cythraul Enfys
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,089
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#18 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 41,834
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Any time at all? Even a week or two before the due date? How are you thinking of killing the baby in that situation?
Rolfe. |
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#19 |
Banned
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,877
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I promise you would change your view as you assist a late term abortion and watch or actually perform the killing of a crying viable infant. Know how they do that? They sever the spine with a strong pair of scissors...just at the hairline on the back of the neck.
Sure there are rare necessary situations...but mostly it is as Rolfe describes...messing about in some sort of denial. |
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#20 |
Misanthrope of the Mountains
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 23,320
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Obviously it isn't always feasible. And the reality is that very few women would abort late if it is available.
Scrambling the brain ought to do the trick. I'm aware of how they kill the baby. Doesn't change my opinion that it should be an option. |
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#21 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 41,834
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Frankly, I'm appalled. Actually, I don't know words strong enough to express how appalled I am.
Have the damn baby and give it up for adoption. How can any woman live with herself in later life knowing that she'd done that to her own baby? Rolfe. |
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#22 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 516
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Human babies are born pretty underdeveloped in the first place - they are by no means what we recognize as "human" in terms of cognitive development. I feel a lot more sympathy for dogs or cats, for example, when they are old enough to be curious, wide-eyed little critters. So no, I can't see why late term abortions are considered such a huge ethical conundrum. Newborn humans aren't just "a lump of cells", but they behave with less sophistication than cows, which incidentally we eat every day.
I'm not saying that killing newborn babies should be legal, by the way. We have to draw the line somewhere, and birth seems to be a pretty safe place to do it. |
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#24 |
Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Emily's shop
Posts: 17,580
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Maybe because there is a separate thread on it:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=247794 |
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#25 |
Emeritus
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 13,534
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Thanks, I had been looking for the thread and couldn't find it!
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