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Old 9th December 2012, 10:24 AM   #361
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Rose, I'm surprised that you enjoyed reading the bible. I read it, too, many years back. I'm glad for you, I suppose, but as for me, reading it from cover to cover made me sometimes physically sick. The horrors and the tortures and the acts committed in there in I Am's name are many times utterly horrifying and sickening.

Moses is one that sticks in my mind, but there are so many horrible things all over that book that I was troubled for years. I still am, actually.

For me, the small amount of 'beauty' in it cannot come close to overshadowing the utter atrocities and outright genocide.

However, I am reading your posts with interest and I thank you for your honesty. I personally agree with others here, especially Skeptic Ginger, but I truly appreciate the time and effort you are putting into your responses.
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Old 9th December 2012, 10:27 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Ah, nice try. But the difference is, along with failed scientific hypotheses were many many many successful ones.

Not a single god myth has ever turned out to be true.
Are you sure about that? Or is this scientific faith at work?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

You said you believe in miracles. That suggests you believe in things that haven't been shown to actually occur.
There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever.
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Old 9th December 2012, 10:34 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Minarvia View Post
Rose, I'm surprised that you enjoyed reading the bible. I read it, too, many years back. I'm glad for you, I suppose, but as for me, reading it from cover to cover made me sometimes physically sick. The horrors and the tortures and the acts committed in there in I Am's name are many times utterly horrifying and sickening.

Moses is one that sticks in my mind, but there are so many horrible things all over that book that I was troubled for years. I still am, actually.

For me, the small amount of 'beauty' in it cannot come close to overshadowing the utter atrocities and outright genocide.

However, I am reading your posts with interest and I thank you for your honesty. I personally agree with others here, especially Skeptic Ginger, but I truly appreciate the time and effort you are putting into your responses.
Yes there are many parts of it that are pretty much NSFR. I view it as both history and literature, with a lot of philosophy thrown in. The KJV version reads almost like poetry to me. The Gospel of John, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Book of Revelation are pretty good ones.

I appreciate your kind comments as well.
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Old 9th December 2012, 10:44 AM   #364
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Catching up on a few pages here. I love your posts as always, Skeptic Ginger.

Rose Montague
What I'd really like to know is WHY you believe. However, I shall quite understand if you choose not to answer because in the six years or so Ive been posting on various forums, I don't think I've ever read an actual answer to that!
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Old 9th December 2012, 10:58 AM   #365
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As the longest night of the year fast approaches I celebrate the Yule by lighting and speaking a brief prayer both when I wake up in the morning and before I go to sleep. This ritual has both ties to Hannukkah and the Advent, chasing away the dark of the approaching Winter Solstice both with light and aspects of life such as the holly, mistletoe and Christmas tree. And I will celebrate Christmas with my family, mostly Christians, with lots of food, hopefully not turkey this year, probably some Southern dishes, or maybe a big thick juicy steak.

It's a great time to be thankful for what we have, regardless of your religion (or lack of).
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Old 9th December 2012, 11:19 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
Catching up on a few pages here. I love your posts as always, Skeptic Ginger.

Rose Montague
What I'd really like to know is WHY you believe. However, I shall quite understand if you choose not to answer because in the six years or so Ive been posting on various forums, I don't think I've ever read an actual answer to that!
I can't believe that nobody in all these threads in this section has answered this question. Perhaps the answers were just not satisfactory to you?

In any case, I don't mind giving you my feelings on this. First, I sense something more to the universe, something that is not physical. The presence of God is all around us and within us as far as I am concerned. I think that most people that truly believe in God have a similar feeling. Second, it makes more sense to me that there is a creator and a god that does care and interact with Her creation. And third, I have seen miracles in my life and I believe because I have seen it. Some might not consider these things miracles, but I do. Fourth, I have a deep respect for nature and the universe. It is bigger and more awesome than I can imagine. The alternatives of randomness and luck just don't feel right to me. And fifth, I can't imagine death is the end. Here is my banner from my facebook page. Death has another thing coming, imo.
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Old 9th December 2012, 11:27 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What question do you think she can ask that I can't answer?

Because I'm an atheist, not an agnostic. I think people who ask if gods exist ask the wrong question. The question to ask is, what best explains god beliefs? And the answer is, the evidence overwhelmingly supports the conclusion, gods are human generated fiction.

The evidence supports my conclusions. Rose has no evidence at all.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How does saying god did it answer that question?

I'm not saying I know, but adding a god layer doesn't add a thing.
That question, obviously, not the one you choose as a later example, but the one you admit to not knowing in the post I was referring to, to which you are now objecting.

I obviously agree that the evidence does not support a god. but I also agree with your at least occasional admission that you do not know all the answers, but that this does not mean we must name a god to provide them gratis.
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Old 9th December 2012, 11:46 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
I didn't take the OP as talking about the Christian God. The topic was what do JREF religious believers believe . Religious covers a lot of territory. However, I enjoyed reading the bible and there are concepts in there that I think are sound. I feel the same way about some of the other religions and I love some of the rituals involved in practicing one's religion. I think it is a great way to focus on our spiritual side regardless of what the practical aspects of a religion are. My current beliefs would probably be described as a form of Neopaganism although I still adhere to the one God theory (with different aspects).

As I posted earlier I believe God spoke. The Word was the beginning for the universe. I believe in respect for our creator through forms of worship, ritual, and prayer. I believe in miracles.
Well, I guess I shouldn't have just assumed which god you mean, and I apologize for that, but the same argument holds for any other deity or cosmic intelligence or whatever. We can do the same exercise for Odin, or Azathoth from Lovecraft's myth, or for the FSM or the Ceiling Cat. Or if you prefer goddesses, well, same deal.

Even if I were to grant that there must be something -- or heck, let's even grant there must be someONE -- who caused the big bang. there are a LOT of gaps between 'we don't know where the energy for the Big Bang came from' and, basically, 'I know it was THIS specific deity.' As long as you have any specific deity in mind, or any specific attributes for that deity, the same question applies: how do you know? How do you get from not knowing anything about some cosmic event to knowing that it's a god/goddess/great-spirit/cosmic-intelligence/whatever which specifically likes X and dislikes Y? How do you get from 'he's whatever caused the Big Bang' to, say, 'he's deeply hurt if you're gay' for the Christian God, or for your deity, well, whatever he/she/it likes or dislikes?

All I'm saying is that 'god did it' isn't some general answer that fits everything, as it just introduces more gaps than there were without a god there at all.
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Old 9th December 2012, 12:02 PM   #369
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But ok, you say first there was the Word.

I assume you have some explanation for what that is or how it works. After all, the question is what you believe. So, what does that Word do for a living?

I have a feeling it might be different from the Word that John got from Philo. The Greeks' concept of Logos wasn't "word" as in speech or dictionary words, that was Lexis. The Logos is the root word for Logic, and actually meant more like Reason by the time of John. It was the Reason that basically keeps the world working. It was what kept the sun rising every morning, and the planets moving, and the crops growing and everything. I suppose nowadays we wouldn't be too far in terms of observable effects from that original meaning if we called it Physics. (Though probably far in terms of the woowoo heaped on it.)

Philo also clearly believed that this Logos was also anthropomorphic, and in fact humans were created in the image of the Logos not the Father god. In fact the Philo version of the Logos was a second God entirely. John just took it and put a Logos=Jesus in the equation.

But I find that most people nowadays don't really believe that any more.

So, ok, what does your version of the Word look like?
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Old 9th December 2012, 12:26 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
Are you sure about that? Or is this scientific faith at work?


Yes. Science does not rely on faith. If you are not sure then show us a god myth that is true, and has been proven to be true.
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Old 9th December 2012, 01:16 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
But ok, you say first there was the Word.

I assume you have some explanation for what that is or how it works. After all, the question is what you believe. So, what does that Word do for a living?

I have a feeling it might be different from the Word that John got from Philo. The Greeks' concept of Logos wasn't "word" as in speech or dictionary words, that was Lexis. The Logos is the root word for Logic, and actually meant more like Reason by the time of John. It was the Reason that basically keeps the world working. It was what kept the sun rising every morning, and the planets moving, and the crops growing and everything. I suppose nowadays we wouldn't be too far in terms of observable effects from that original meaning if we called it Physics. (Though probably far in terms of the woowoo heaped on it.)

Philo also clearly believed that this Logos was also anthropomorphic, and in fact humans were created in the image of the Logos not the Father god. In fact the Philo version of the Logos was a second God entirely. John just took it and put a Logos=Jesus in the equation.

But I find that most people nowadays don't really believe that any more.

So, ok, what does your version of the Word look like?
It's a beautiful passage but not what I was referring to. I will call it the original word, the prime word God Spoke. Meaning let's get the show on the road.
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Old 9th December 2012, 01:42 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
As the longest night of the year fast approaches I celebrate the Yule by lighting and speaking a brief prayer both when I wake up in the morning and before I go to sleep. This ritual has both ties to Hannukkah and the Advent, chasing away the dark of the approaching Winter Solstice both with light and aspects of life such as the holly, mistletoe and Christmas tree. And I will celebrate Christmas with my family, mostly Christians, with lots of food, hopefully not turkey this year, probably some Southern dishes, or maybe a big thick juicy steak.

It's a great time to be thankful for what we have, regardless of your religion (or lack of).
How sweet.

I'm an Atheist. This week I have three volunteer duties, two at the homeless shelter, the other at the soup kitchen. Next Saturday is an all-day Habitat For Humanity build.


Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
...interact with Her creation...
Her?

The Bible mentions God as female? Where is this located in Scripture?
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Old 9th December 2012, 01:43 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Yes. Science does not rely on faith. If you are not sure then show us a god myth that is true, and has been proven to be true.
"An honest man, armed with all knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going."

My personal opinion and the opinion of many scientists is that it takes faith to believe life is possible without a deity. I think non-believing scientists display a better example of faith than does the believer.

"The precision is as if one could throw a dart across the entire universe and hit a bullseye one millimeter in diameter on the other side."

There is no proof of a creation involving no God, so yes, science is relying on faith when they deny the possibility of God.

"I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science."
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Old 9th December 2012, 01:48 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
Are you sure about that? Or is this scientific faith at work?
It's how overwhelming evidence works.

Are you sure that if you see a new species of dog you know it is a mammal? How many mammals do you need to see before you can assume certain features (hair, warm-blooded, vertebrate and, in the female, milk production) on a newly discovered animal mean you can call it a mammal?

The point is, we draw these kinds of conclusions all the time. No one says, you have to prove the negative before you can say all new species with these features are mammals. We've seen enough mammals to now draw a conclusion about all of them, including the ones we have not yet seen.


Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever.
But you cannot cite one that stands the test of critical analysis, can you? Why does the million dollar challenge go unclaimed?
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Old 9th December 2012, 01:51 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Elypsis44 View Post
How sweet.

I'm an Atheist. This week I have three volunteer duties, two at the homeless shelter, the other at the soup kitchen. Next Saturday is an all-day Habitat For Humanity build.

Her?

The Bible mentions God as female? Where is this located in Scripture?
I am not sure why everybody just assumes Christian. The concept of God as having both aspects of male and female is a pagan one, primarily Wicca. The creative aspect is female, imo.

You are doing a good thing. I am sure your service to these worthy causes is appreciated.
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:01 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
Yes there are many parts of it that are pretty much NSFR. I view it as both history and literature, with a lot of philosophy thrown in. The KJV version reads almost like poetry to me. The Gospel of John, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Book of Revelation are pretty good ones..
Yowza!

My most gross out parts are the stories of blaming women for sin, God preferring animal sacrifice in the Cain and Able story, the story of Lot where he prefers throwing his daughters to a mob, his wife is destroyed by God for a minuscule and arbitrary failure and the daughters are then blamed for the father's incest, God "hardens Pharaoh's heart so he can order a slew of first borns killed, God encourages the slaughter of the Amalekites except wants his side to keep virgins for later rape, and on and on and on....

I don't recall any 'favorite' parts in the version I read.
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:03 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
As the longest night of the year fast approaches I celebrate the Yule by lighting and speaking a brief prayer both when I wake up in the morning and before I go to sleep. This ritual has both ties to Hannukkah and the Advent, chasing away the dark of the approaching Winter Solstice both with light and aspects of life such as the holly, mistletoe and Christmas tree. And I will celebrate Christmas with my family, mostly Christians, with lots of food, hopefully not turkey this year, probably some Southern dishes, or maybe a big thick juicy steak.

It's a great time to be thankful for what we have, regardless of your religion (or lack of).
Do you know, it is possible to keep and enjoy the rituals while doing away with the mythical belief aspects?
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:06 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yowza!

My most gross out parts are the stories of blaming women for sin, God preferring animal sacrifice in the Cain and Able story, the story of Lot where he prefers throwing his daughters to a mob, his wife is destroyed by God for a minuscule and arbitrary failure and the daughters are then blamed for the father's incest, God "hardens Pharaoh's heart so he can order a slew of first borns killed, God encourages the slaughter of the Amalekites except wants his side to keep virgins for later rape, and on and on and on....

I don't recall any 'favorite' parts in the version I read.
Let not your heart be troubled SG. You don't have to read it again. I thought the same thing with A Clockwork Orange. There may be something in there of value but I don't see it. Some people think it is classic literature. I think it is trash but maybe it is just me.
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:08 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Do you know, it is possible to keep and enjoy the rituals while doing away with the mythical belief aspects?
Yes, nothing wrong with that, imo. Belief is a matter of choice as is the ritual.
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:11 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
That question, obviously, not the one you choose as a later example, but the one you admit to not knowing in the post I was referring to, to which you are now objecting.

I obviously agree that the evidence does not support a god. but I also agree with your at least occasional admission that you do not know all the answers, but that this does not mean we must name a god to provide them gratis.
Why would you think I believe I know all the answers? You've misread something somewhere.

Perhaps I confused you with this question:
Originally Posted by SG
What question do you think she can ask that I can't answer?
I consider, "I don't know", to be an answer.

The point I was making was that filling the knowledge gap with, "god-did-it", is no more of an answer than "I don't know".

What existed before the Big Bang? Gobbledygook and green cheese, obviously. Magic mice got bored and decided to mix the two together and voilá, the Universe and time began.

Are you any further along using that answer than you'd be with, "I don't know"?
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:14 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
... or the Ceiling Cat.
There's a Ceiling Cat?!

Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
...All I'm saying is that 'god did it' isn't some general answer that fits everything, as it just introduces more gaps than there were without a god there at all.
Exactly.
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:15 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Why does the million dollar challenge go unclaimed?
I need a hero.

"Great wonder grew in hall
At his hue most strange to see,
For man and gear and all
Were green as green could be."
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:22 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
"An honest man, armed with all knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going."

My personal opinion and the opinion of many scientists is that it takes faith to believe life is possible without a deity. I think non-believing scientists display a better example of faith than does the believer.
Yes, there are indoctrinated scientists. That doesn't make your "almost a miracle" claim even close to being true. People studying the abiogenesis phase of evolution theory would clearly beg to differ.

Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
"The precision is as if one could throw a dart across the entire universe and hit a bullseye one millimeter in diameter on the other side."
This apology has been addressed ad nauseum elsewhere. I'll leave it at that.


Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
There is no proof of a creation involving no God, so yes, science is relying on faith when they deny the possibility of God.
There's no proof it wasn't a lot of things, mice and green cheese and Ceiling Cats come to mind.


Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
"I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science."
I find it difficult to understand the cognitive dissonance it must take for someone who understands the scientific process to exclude god beliefs from critical analysis.
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:23 PM   #384
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Rose, every unlikely event, of which there are many all the time, can be looked at in retrospect and seen as miraculous. The origin of life is very unlikely indeed, but here we are: it only had to happen once in the long history of a mind bogglingly huge universe for us to sit here hoping we're something special that a special God did instead of settling for the comfortless statistics that we see working all the time.

You can go ahead and presume a god if it makes you happy and keeps you from feeling alone in the universe, but for others it's no more necessary for life than it is for explaining why some lucky dude won Powerball last week.
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:24 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
Let not your heart be troubled SG. You don't have to read it again. I thought the same thing with A Clockwork Orange. There may be something in there of value but I don't see it. Some people think it is classic literature. I think it is trash but maybe it is just me.
Reading it again isn't the issue. Millions of people worshipping such a woman demeaning/devaluing god myth is what troubles me.
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:26 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
Catching up on a few pages here. I love your posts as always, Skeptic Ginger. ...
Thank you. It's nice to know I don't only piss people off.
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:27 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes, there are indoctrinated scientists. That doesn't make your "almost a miracle" claim even close to being true. People studying the abiogenesis phase of evolution theory would clearly beg to differ.
It's a conspiracy.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This apology has been addressed ad nauseum elsewhere. I'll leave it at that.
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There's no proof it wasn't a lot of things, mice and green cheese and Ceiling Cats come to mind.
I like green eggs and ham.


Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I find it difficult to understand the cognitive dissonance it must take for someone who understands the scientific process to exclude god beliefs from critical analysis.
Ditto.
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:29 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Rose, every unlikely event, of which there are many all the time, can be looked at in retrospect and seen as miraculous. The origin of life is very unlikely indeed, but here we are: it only had to happen once in the long history of a mind bogglingly huge universe for us to sit here hoping we're something special that a special God did instead of settling for the comfortless statistics that we see working all the time.

You can go ahead and presume a god if it makes you happy and keeps you from feeling alone in the universe, but for others it's no more necessary for life than it is for explaining why some lucky dude won Powerball last week.
Are you saying your view on this might change if life was shown to exist on other planets? Just curiosity.
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:38 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yowza!

My most gross out parts are the stories of blaming women for sin, God preferring animal sacrifice in the Cain and Able story, the story of Lot where he prefers throwing his daughters to a mob, his wife is destroyed by God for a minuscule and arbitrary failure and the daughters are then blamed for the father's incest, God "hardens Pharaoh's heart so he can order a slew of first borns killed, God encourages the slaughter of the Amalekites except wants his side to keep virgins for later rape, and on and on and on....

I don't recall any 'favorite' parts in the version I read.
Yes, indeed. I was troubled by all those things and like you say, "on and on and on." And I agree with you on probably everything you've said, SK. I wish I had even a tenth of your brains for these sorts of threads. I can only read and hope to learn a bit one day and actually add something of value.

I can say, however, that Rose is being a real champ, here. She's taking on a lot and doing her best to respond coherently and understand every question she's being tossed.

Rose, I studied a bit of Wicca in my time and also read the bible. I don't know if it is scripture per say, and I know you weren't necessarily referring to it when you say, "She." Wicca does indeed have the female creation aspect, iirc. However, I think the bible says something along the lines of -

"created them in His image; male and female." That is what makes it seem, at least imo, that the "His" is just a pronoun default. It really should be a "she-he-it" sort of thing.
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:39 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Thank you. It's nice to know I don't only piss people off.


And here I was thinking it was your hobby!
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:40 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Minarvia View Post
Yes, indeed. I was troubled by all those things and like you say, "on and on and on." And I agree with you on probably everything you've said, SK. I wish I had even a tenth of your brains for these sorts of threads. I can only read and hope to learn a bit one day and actually add something of value.

I can say, however, that Rose is being a real champ, here. She's taking on a lot and doing her best to respond coherently and understand every question she's being tossed.

Rose, I studied a bit of Wicca in my time and also read the bible. I don't know if it is scripture per say, and I know you weren't necessarily referring to it when you say, "She." Wicca does indeed have the female creation aspect, iirc. However, I think the bible says something along the lines of -

"created them in His image; male and female." That is what makes it seem, at least imo, that the "His" is just a pronoun default. It really should be a "she-he-it" sort of thing.
The Christian idea of the Trinity is but different aspects of one god as well.

I appreciate your comments.
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:41 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
Are you saying your view on this might change if life was shown to exist on other planets? Just curiosity.
I can't wait for the response, but for me I'd say my view that there are no creator god/s will not change. Life on other planets would just tell me that in this vast Universe a sprinkling of life here and there is not only welcome, but fascinating. It does not lead me to thinking that a god put them there, just that the planets were in their own "Goldilocks Zone."
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:42 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
The Christian idea of the Trinity is but different aspects of one god as well.

I appreciate your comments.
Ditto!
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:50 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Minarvia View Post
Yes, indeed. I was troubled by all those things and like you say, "on and on and on." And I agree with you on probably everything you've said, SK. I wish I had even a tenth of your brains for these sorts of threads. I can only read and hope to learn a bit one day and actually add something of value.
Thank you.


Originally Posted by Minarvia View Post
I can say, however, that Rose is being a real champ, here. She's taking on a lot and doing her best to respond coherently and understand every question she's being tossed.
I agree. I like when these discussions remain so civil.


Originally Posted by Minarvia View Post
"created them in His image; male and female." That is what makes it seem, at least imo, that the "His" is just a pronoun default. It really should be a "she-he-it" sort of thing.
Actually, the Bible says God created Adam in God's image and made Eve to keep Adam company. There are two creation stories in Genesis:

The one you cited:
Quote:
1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Technically that only says man was in God's image.

Then there is the second creation story version most people cite:
Quote:
2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:53 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
What I'd really like to know is WHY you believe.
I know this wasn't aimed at me, but as an answer...

Because I have seen, experienced, and met people to whom too many things have happened that simply can't be rationalised away.

For instance, I clearly heard my sister yelling at me to watch out for a car, something that prevented me being hit by it, except she was over 10km away visiting my Grandmother at the time. When I have brought it up before, the general consensus of the skeptic body’s wisdom is that it simply didn't happen, but since I was there and the skeptic body wasn't, I can say categorically, it did. And it's not the only thing I have personally experienced, though I'm not going to go into detail of other things here.

Talking with others I have heard a number of incredible stories which I have zero reason to doubt, often because there were other witnesses to the events as well, and they really had no reason to lie about it, in fact lying about it and then being caught out would have seriously harmed their standing.

Now none of these things are scientifically testable, it doesn't work on a demand and measure scale of things, in fact a lot of it can't be measured in any way. However, when it actually occurs to you and you're left sitting, or standing, there realising that what you just experienced is not possible based on the current scientific understanding of the laws of the Universe, then either you throw away some of the laws, of you accept that just maybe there is something beyond what we can perceive, something that exists outside of our own time and space, and yet can still interact with it.
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Old 9th December 2012, 02:53 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Minarvia View Post


And here I was thinking it was your hobby!
I was born social-skills challenged. Been working on that for years.
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Old 9th December 2012, 03:19 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I know this wasn't aimed at me, but as an answer...

Because I have seen, experienced, and met people to whom too many things have happened that simply can't be rationalised away.

For instance, I clearly heard my sister yelling at me to watch out for a car, something that prevented me being hit by it, except she was over 10km away visiting my Grandmother at the time. When I have brought it up before, the general consensus of the skeptic body’s wisdom is that it simply didn't happen, but since I was there and the skeptic body wasn't, I can say categorically, it did. And it's not the only thing I have personally experienced, though I'm not going to go into detail of other things here.

Talking with others I have heard a number of incredible stories which I have zero reason to doubt, often because there were other witnesses to the events as well, and they really had no reason to lie about it, in fact lying about it and then being caught out would have seriously harmed their standing.

Now none of these things are scientifically testable, it doesn't work on a demand and measure scale of things, in fact a lot of it can't be measured in any way. However, when it actually occurs to you and you're left sitting, or standing, there realising that what you just experienced is not possible based on the current scientific understanding of the laws of the Universe, then either you throw away some of the laws, of you accept that just maybe there is something beyond what we can perceive, something that exists outside of our own time and space, and yet can still interact with it.

There are two answers given now. Anyone else?
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Old 9th December 2012, 03:36 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
There are two answers given now. Anyone else?
Anecdotes, not real answers.
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Old 9th December 2012, 03:45 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Why don't the aliens ever give documentary evidence to the abductees?
Originally Posted by tsig View Post
They never respect them in the morning.
What, and no cigarette after?
Originally Posted by blobru View Post
All (except me) hail the Bacon-hating Deity!
It appears that Jesus, as with a few other rules, was able to mitigate the bacon hating as a matter of spirit versus letter of the law.

Or, maybe, he didn't even consider it a question, didn't thus address it, and thus left it to his first generation team to figure it out.

Looks like the Holy Spirit is OK with bacon.
So far. Maybe that was an inner meaning of salt of the earth.
Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
I didn't say this. I think it is highly arrogant to think the universe was created for us.
Of the religions that I have any familiarity with, it only appears that the Earth was created for us. Venus was apparently only created for incredibly hot babes, and they were so hawt that the whole planet overheated. Talk about woman caused global warming!
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Anecdotes, not real answers.
They were answers.
That you don't care for them does not render them not an answer. Who are you to demand that there be raisins in those answers for you to consider them "real" answers. Do you want a kilt as well, amigo?

I note the usual dog pile, the usual interesting posts by Hans, and not much else.

Standard religion thread. Rose has been very gracious.

I miss cj23
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Old 9th December 2012, 03:53 PM   #400
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Ok, so there was some word, in the dictionary sense, that God spoke before finally getting to work on the big bang. I assume it's as good a start as any.

So, did this word play any particular role? Or was just God saying some irrelevant word, like, say, stubbing his toe in the dark before he created light and going, "<bleep>!"?

Does the universe respond to voice commands? Can we do it too?

For that matter, given that the universe didn't even exist yet, how does it take commands before existing?

What form or nature would this word have? Not only there isn't any medium in which sound would propagate yet, but there wasn't even space and time in which that would take place. So how did God speak there?

For that matter, since there was no time and space, where was God? He couldn't have been IN this universe before he created said universe. Is there a bigger universe where God is? Who created that one then? Is there a bigger god over all gods? Is it turtles... err... gods all the way down?

Etc.

You were saying before you wanted to see some mixed discipline of science and theology. But the science part wouldn't even be able to start doing anything, unless the hypotheses and premises are clearly defined.
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