ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags john edward , mediums , psychics

Reply
Old 26th November 2012, 01:03 PM   #161
often mrunderstood
Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 216
Imagine what information one could get from a person's facebook account for example (or youtube).

I have heard that some people will even post stupid, mundane things there. Like the purchase of a new appliance. (not saying that happened here, but it could be a great source for things they "couldn't know")

Still waiting for a reason to go to your blog. Talking to the dead. Sheesh!

Last edited by often mrunderstood; 26th November 2012 at 01:05 PM.
often mrunderstood is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 01:16 PM   #162
LashL
Goddess of Legaltainment™
Administrator
 
LashL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 34,057
Originally Posted by quarky View Post
OMG!

I've never actually watched one of these 'readings' before.
I don't know why I checked out your link.
Was that one abnormally bad, or is it more typical?

I've (obviously) never played around with this sort of manipulation, but I honestly feel I could have done much better than JE on that one.

Yeah, that does indeed look pretty abysmal to me, too. I mean, seriously. He asks her early on whether there's anyone else there and she looks to her left and says her son is in the other room. Five minutes later, after non-stop high speed chatter in which he throws all kinds of other nonsense into the mix, JE asks her if she has a little boy. She says he's not little. Then he pretends that it's her dead parents referring to the 'younger male'. Then he asks if there's a room to her left - as if she hadn't just telegraphed that already when she specifically said she had a son in the other room while looking to her left.

No, her grandfather didn't hang himself. That becomes 'intubation' (only after her already telling him that two of her family members died of cancer, and there's a pretty good chance of intubation being involved). Then he suggests that she was there while her mother was intubated (she wasn't) and he goes on as if she had actually said yes instead of no and tells her that her mother wants her to know that it wasn't as bad as it looked, didn't hurt.

Nobody named Jennifer or Jenny or Jenna Marie or Jenny Margaret.

No pink roses; it's a snow globe from Disney. He asks if it has some connection to her mother or sister. Well, gee, this woman is there for the specific purpose of "connecting" with her dead relatives so what are the odds that the thing she has in front of her while she's doing this might have something to do with her dead relatives?

He's wrong about which of her sister and her mother died first.

She says that she was at Disney with her sister and that they used a motorized cart for her sister and he comes up with the stunning revelation that they didn't have to wait in line. Duh.

No pirate connection. Then he yaks about being at Disney with his own grandmother on the pirate ride.

McDonald's - no. So he yaks about his own fast food crap.

Fast food holiday - no. So he yaks about his own food hangups and his own childhood and his own family some more.

Pretty pathetic, really.
LashL is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 01:26 PM   #163
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,840
Reading the blog is actually interesting, Robin explains more detail.

Here's the thing about the Valerie Harper connection. He said "there's a Valerie Harper connection" not "You just bought tickets to Valerie Harper's show"

Now even if he didn't look up tourists coming in to buy tickets, which I don't think he could have done so quickly, he didn't say tickets.

Valerie Harper was an actress on the Mary Tyler Moore show, she's not a super famous actress but she was on a popular show. The tickets were a coincidence.

Years ago I worked in my ex husband's thrift store and I had an incident like this happen where a couple walked in and were looking around the store. I had never met them before and went up to the man who was looking through shirts. I had just recently moved the "pink men's shirts" to another section. He was looking and not actually looking at the shirts but scanning the rack, so I went up and asked him if he was looking for the pink man's shirts. He did a double take and called his wife up and said it was a sign. He was looking at the shirts but the mother had just died and requested that she be buried in a pink shirt. He took it as a psychic connection.

A sign from mom.
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 01:32 PM   #164
Garrette
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,475
Originally Posted by Robin Stettnisch View Post
I have nothing to do with the Patch news site other than my blog...ANYONE...no jokes please : )...can blog for free and I get nothing back from it...
Okay. I withdraw my implications to the contrary. Thanks for straightening that out.

Originally Posted by Robin Stettnisch
unless of course you count the sheer satisfaction of knowing I may be spreading a little "Light"....
Satisfaction of some sort is, I suppose, the main reason nearly everyone goes on the internet.

Originally Posted by Stettnisch
As far as John Edward goes...my description is accurate ...
I believe that you think it is accurate, and I acknowledge that it is possible it is accurate, but I insist that it is likely not accurate. In fact, it can't really be accurate since you haven't even provided close paraphrases. The verbiage matters. The specifics matter. Tell me, please, in all your research about mediums and cold reading did you run across much about the fallibility and malleability of memory? It is pertinent, too.

Originally Posted by Stettnisch
you think it must not be...so we agree to disagree.
Not really. See above.

Originally Posted by Stettnisch
Now if anyone is willing to read my other blog involving my deceased Nana "Is it Just a Dream...Or Something More?"
I would be very curious to hear your explanation of how I knew about the slippers. Assuming of course you don't think my Nana told me herself. And with this crowd I'd say that's a pretty safe bet! : )
http://yorktown-somers.patch.com/blo...something-more
Please don't do this. Far too many believers come here and play the psychic version of whack-a-mole. Pick your best "proof" and stick with it. When you can't defend the best proof, admit it, but don't just pretend the discussion never happened and run off to another example that is suddenly the best proof.

Here is my perception of your position and discussion so far. Despite how I know it must seem, it is not meant as an insult. I am sure that you felt when you came here that you had covered all the logical and rational bases and were being open and fair about everything.


I have proof of life after death.

I have demands on my time, but you skeptics don't, so do my work for me.

I have experience of these things, but you skeptics don't.

Those who believe in psychics I don't believe in are wrong.

Those who don't believe in psychics I believe in are wrong.

I am not closed-minded but you skeptics are.

I want to talk about Gary Schwartz's book unless you skeptics actually know something about it.

I cannot be fooled but you guys are the arrogant ones.

Well, okay, when pressed for details I admit that my anecdote is indistinguishable from a contradictory anecdote but you skeptics should at least consider it anyway even though I won't consider the possibility I am wrong.


I reiterate that this post really isn't an insult. You seem intelligent enough and quite pleasant and definitely sincere. Yet you seem simultaneously to suffer from the myopia of the believers who mistakenly think that emotional significance coupled with a layman's knowledge of psychic readings are sufficient to defend against self deception. They are not.

As someone on your blog states, though with different intent: "There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy." That includes ways to be fooled and to fool yourself.
__________________
My kids still love me.
Garrette is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 01:33 PM   #165
Robin1
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 749
Sorry forgot to sign off earlier...like I said new to this. Will be back when I can. Didn't realize quite what I was getting into here... : )
Robin1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 01:37 PM   #166
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 44,969
Originally Posted by Robin Stettnisch View Post
Ok, now my kids are going to be mad...Why are there no presents Mommy?...well darlings Mommy got obsessed and trapped on a life after death thread...
K... NO way for John Edward to know about fridge or Valerie Harper connection or tooth in pocket...no talking about any of it before or during event...NO We did NOT offer ANY info to John or hints while being read...we didn't fill out any forms or talk to anyone there. Seating was random. Fridge and Valerie Harper statements made directly to me and my brother NOT thrown out to the entire group of 75 people just waiting for someone to bite. THAT is the proof...problem is not lack of proof but the lack of ability of some to even entertain the notion of life after death could ever be a possibility...EVER. Cause most certainly if you coud entertain that ridiculous notion you could also entertain the notion that communication is possible. NOW, I gonna go Chris..oh forget it..I gonna sit here and wait for responses...
You really don't want to look at how cold reading works, do you?

Edward throws out generalities and believers fill in the specifics. It's very convincing but it's also done by magicians who disclose how it is done after fooling an audience into thinking, "How could he/she possibly have known that?"
__________________
(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Pubbie Party, Repubs "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 01:38 PM   #167
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,840
Well come back. We're not new to this. A person who makes a living at psychic readings from beyond has done research and dedicates his or her time to focusing on the readability of people. Not just the individual but the crowd.

Any public speaker does the same thing. I teach adults and I always can tell when a person doesn't understand what I am talking about. I will regularly bring in information about the students themselves to help them understand the topic from a more personal perspective.

When I go to do presentations my first question is always "who is the audience." I try to find out information and "read the room."

Ex. If talk about an anecdote about raising kids and I see people smile in a knowing way or shake their head I know they have kids. If someone looks bored I think they don't. I'm usually 99 % correct in doing this.

Even comedians do this.
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 01:40 PM   #168
Garrette
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,475
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Reading the blog is actually interesting, Robin explains more detail.

Here's the thing about the Valerie Harper connection. He said "there's a Valerie Harper connection" not "You just bought tickets to Valerie Harper's show"

Now even if he didn't look up tourists coming in to buy tickets, which I don't think he could have done so quickly, he didn't say tickets.

Valerie Harper was an actress on the Mary Tyler Moore show, she's not a super famous actress but she was on a popular show. The tickets were a coincidence.

Years ago I worked in my ex husband's thrift store and I had an incident like this happen where a couple walked in and were looking around the store. I had never met them before and went up to the man who was looking through shirts. I had just recently moved the "pink men's shirts" to another section. He was looking and not actually looking at the shirts but scanning the rack, so I went up and asked him if he was looking for the pink man's shirts. He did a double take and called his wife up and said it was a sign. He was looking at the shirts but the mother had just died and requested that she be buried in a pink shirt. He took it as a psychic connection.

A sign from mom.
I mentioned before that according to Robin JE did not specifically say anything about tickets or a Broadway show. Not only was Valerie Harper on the MTM Show, she had her own two shows after that and was a pretty big television name for a while. Given that Robin herself is just about in that generation that would know Valerie Harper (a few years older would be better but not necessary), I assume her brother is in the same age range, possibly older. That means if he simply admitted liking any of the three shows that were fairly popular in the late 60s and the 70s it would have been a hit.

Robin, can you confirm, please, that you don't want to talk about The Afterlife Experiments? I don't want to presume anything; you may simply be overwhelmed with the number of responses. If you do want to talk about it, I can try to find the previous analyses I have done on the book.
__________________
My kids still love me.
Garrette is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 01:40 PM   #169
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,518
Originally Posted by Robin Stettnisch View Post
Sorry forgot to sign off earlier...like I said new to this. Will be back when I can. Didn't realize quite what I was getting into here... : )
You don't have to "sign on" or "sign off" in a thread. As you can see, it continues merrily along in your absence. Post whenever you like.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 01:41 PM   #170
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,169
The basic Wikipedia entries on readings and John Edward contains details of him being found out

"A 2001 Time article reported that psychic John Edward allegedly used hot reading on his television show, Crossing Over, where an audience member who received a reading was suspicious of prior behavior from Edward's aides, who had struck up conversations with audience members and asked them to fill out cards detailing their family trees.[5] In December 2001, Edward was alleged to have used foreknowledge to hot read in an interview on the television show Dateline, where a reading for a cameraman was based on knowledge gained in conversation some hours previously, yet presented as if he was unaware of the cameraman's background"

and a lack of accuracy

"Choosing the first reading from a two hour tape of edited shows as a sample, magician and skeptic James Randi found that just three of twenty three statements made by Edward were confirmed as correct by the audience member being read, and the three statements that were correct were also trivial and nondescript.[17]"

Sorry Robin, but all you have is one experience which has been shown to be right using a technique that has been exposed ages ago. Also for Wikipedia this time from the entry on cold readings

"Some performers who use cold reading are honest about their use of the technique. Lynne Kelly, Kari Coleman,[7] Ian Rowland,[8] and Derren Brown[9] have used these techniques at either private fortune-telling sessions or open forum "talking with the dead" sessions in the manner of those who claim to be genuine mediums. Only after receiving acclaim and applause from their audience do they reveal that they needed no psychic power for the performance, only a sound knowledge of psychology and cold reading.

In an episode of his Trick of the Mind series broadcast in March 2006, Derren Brown showed how easily people can be influenced through cold reading techniques by repeating Bertram Forer's famous demonstration of the personal validation fallacy, or Forer effect."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_reading

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edward
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 01:44 PM   #171
Garrette
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,475
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The basic Wikipedia entries on readings and John Edward contains details of him being found out

"A 2001 Time article reported that psychic John Edward allegedly used hot reading on his television show, Crossing Over, where an audience member who received a reading was suspicious of prior behavior from Edward's aides, who had struck up conversations with audience members and asked them to fill out cards detailing their family trees.[5] In December 2001, Edward was alleged to have used foreknowledge to hot read in an interview on the television show Dateline, where a reading for a cameraman was based on knowledge gained in conversation some hours previously, yet presented as if he was unaware of the cameraman's background"

and a lack of accuracy

"Choosing the first reading from a two hour tape of edited shows as a sample, magician and skeptic James Randi found that just three of twenty three statements made by Edward were confirmed as correct by the audience member being read, and the three statements that were correct were also trivial and nondescript.[17]"

Sorry Robin, but all you have is one experience which has been shown to be right using a technique that has been exposed ages ago. Also for Wikipedia this time from the entry on cold readings
This is important.

Robin, do you think John Edward is always authentic or has he ever cheated in some way?

If so, why, and how do you tell the difference?

If not, how do you explain the misses such as in the linked video?
__________________
My kids still love me.
Garrette is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 01:44 PM   #172
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,169
Originally Posted by Robin Stettnisch View Post
Sorry forgot to sign off earlier...like I said new to this. Will be back when I can. Didn't realize quite what I was getting into here... : )
I hope we have not upset you, but I suspect we probably have by our actions. Forums can be pretty harsh places to discuss something close to your heart.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 01:46 PM   #173
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 44,969
Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Robin, any chance that you'll go back to John Edward for another session? If so, an accurate transcript of exactly what was said would be very helpful in showing others that he isn't simply cold reading, that he is genuinely getting his information from beyond and not pumping you for it. A recording would be awesome.
Just go to youtube. Edward had a TV program for a while. There is plenty of evidence he's just a good cold reader.
__________________
(*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Pubbie Party, Repubs "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 01:52 PM   #174
quarky
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 20,135
Originally Posted by LashL View Post
Yeah, that does indeed look pretty abysmal to me, too. I mean, seriously. He asks her early on whether there's anyone else there and she looks to her left and says her son is in the other room. Five minutes later, after non-stop high speed chatter in which he throws all kinds of other nonsense into the mix, JE asks her if she has a little boy. She says he's not little. Then he pretends that it's her dead parents referring to the 'younger male'. Then he asks if there's a room to her left - as if she hadn't just telegraphed that already when she specifically said she had a son in the other room while looking to her left.

No, her grandfather didn't hang himself. That becomes 'intubation' (only after her already telling him that two of her family members died of cancer, and there's a pretty good chance of intubation being involved). Then he suggests that she was there while her mother was intubated (she wasn't) and he goes on as if she had actually said yes instead of no and tells her that her mother wants her to know that it wasn't as bad as it looked, didn't hurt.

Nobody named Jennifer or Jenny or Jenna Marie or Jenny Margaret.

No pink roses; it's a snow globe from Disney. He asks if it has some connection to her mother or sister. Well, gee, this woman is there for the specific purpose of "connecting" with her dead relatives so what are the odds that the thing she has in front of her while she's doing this might have something to do with her dead relatives?

He's wrong about which of her sister and her mother died first.

She says that she was at Disney with her sister and that they used a motorized cart for her sister and he comes up with the stunning revelation that they didn't have to wait in line. Duh.

No pirate connection. Then he yaks about being at Disney with his own grandmother on the pirate ride.

McDonald's - no. So he yaks about his own fast food crap.

Fast food holiday - no. So he yaks about his own food hangups and his own childhood and his own family some more.

Pretty pathetic, really.
What really amazed me was that the caller seemed ok with it.

The only analogy I can come up with is a defense of a Catholic priest who only molested my child a little bit.
quarky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 01:52 PM   #175
meg
psychic reader
 
meg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kansas USA
Posts: 1,791
Has anyone else ever noticed that when you see pictures of John Edward doing his schtik, the audience never seems to be encumbered with the trappings that people normally always have with them, like hats, coats, jackets, scarves, purses, etc? Where do you suppose all that stuff is?

It seems to me, that if I had recently bought a refrigerator, chances are quite good that I might still have a receipt, an ad flier, or maybe an extended service warranty paper in my purse or jacket pocket. And likewise, if I had just called my friend and talked about booking tickets for a Valerie Harper show, there might very well be a note in my jacket pocket about that, or maybe a news clipping about the Valerie Harper show, or an ad for the show.

Charlatans has used the "have assistants search the coat room" trick to find out "amazing" things about their audience for 150 years. I don't see why John Edward couldn't use a similar tactic. I read somewhere that at least some audiences had to go through bag scanning and x ray machine lines in order to get into the show. Perhaps these lines/machines were there looking for more than just guns..

Just a thought.
__________________
"I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
—Alan Greenspan

Last edited by meg; 26th November 2012 at 02:23 PM. Reason: Removed the "s" from John Edward
meg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 01:53 PM   #176
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,840
What is interesting to me and very telling in John Edwards video where he bombs completely is that he didn't say "I'm not really able to get a read on you." Obviously he couldn't read the woman. If a person is a true psychic he's not going to go down a path that he doesn't see clearly. In this case is shows me that he is feeling his way blind most of the time anyway and so by the time it became really apparent that he didn't have a clue, he was too invested to back out.

This indicates that he operates the same way every single time. Otherwise he would have recognized his limitations immediately.
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 01:54 PM   #177
GeeMack
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,237
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Let me guess.

1. You fully describe your experience to the best of your recollection

2. A comment is made suggesting a plausible mundane explanation for what you described

3. You add a detail to your story that you didn't bother to mention in your original description which appears to rule out that explanation

4. Goto 2

What do you think this is? A discussion about poltergeists? Alien craft? Looking through people's clothing and flesh to see their kidneys inside them?
GeeMack is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 01:58 PM   #178
Garrette
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,475
Originally Posted by meg View Post
Has anyone else ever noticed that when you see pictures of John Edwards doing his schtik, the audience never seems to be encumbered with the trappings that people normally always have with them, like hats, coats, jackets, scarves, purses, etc? Where do you suppose all that stuff is?

It seems to me, that if I had recently bought a refrigerator, chances are quite good that I might still have a receipt, an ad flier, or maybe an extended service warranty paper in my purse or jacket pocket. And likewise, if I had just called my friend and talked about booking tickets for a Valerie Harper show, there might very well be a note in my jacket pocket about that, or maybe a news clipping about the Valerie Harper show, or an ad for the show.

Charlatans has used the "have assistants search the coat room" trick to find out "amazing" things about their audience for 150 years. I don't see why John Edwards couldn't use a similar tactic. I read somewhere that at least some audiences had to go through bag scanning and x ray machine lines in order to get into the show. Perhaps these lines/machines were there looking for more than just guns..

Just a thought.
I don't know if that applies to JE's group sessions or not, but you are correct about the general method. They also send assistants to look in cars parked out front. I recommend Lamar Keene's "The Psychic Mafia." There's more out there, too, but that is an excellent starting point.

Also, I understand that "Psychic Blues" by Mark Edward is worth a read. I have not personally read it yet, but it is on my list.
__________________
My kids still love me.
Garrette is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 01:59 PM   #179
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,840
Originally Posted by meg View Post
Has anyone else ever noticed that when you see pictures of John Edwards doing his schtik, the audience never seems to be encumbered with the trappings that people normally always have with them, like hats, coats, jackets, scarves, purses, etc? Where do you suppose all that stuff is?

It seems to me, that if I had recently bought a refrigerator, chances are quite good that I might still have a receipt, an ad flier, or maybe an extended service warranty paper in my purse or jacket pocket. And likewise, if I had just called my friend and talked about booking tickets for a Valerie Harper show, there might very well be a note in my jacket pocket about that, or maybe a news clipping about the Valerie Harper show, or an ad for the show.

Charlatans has used the "have assistants search the coat room" trick to find out "amazing" things about their audience for 150 years. I don't see why John Edwards couldn't use a similar tactic. I read somewhere that at least some audiences had to go through bag scanning and x ray machine lines in order to get into the show. Perhaps these lines/machines were there looking for more than just guns..

Just a thought.
In my own personal experience as a teacher, this is completely unnecessary to do. If you can read people, most people are pretty predictable. It's not just reading the person, it's reading a room. I read the room all the time when I teach in order to create a meaningful connection and build trust with my students.

Watching another person's reaction to a conversation to the person you are talking to, gives information about that person as well.

Because I'm hearing impaired I pay much more attention to what's going on with the people in the room by body language than an average teacher does.

Ex. A person picks up their water bottle, sees it is empty and puts it back down. That's a clue to take a break, if they want water perhaps others do as well.

Little tiny things that you can simply observe go far in reading your clients.

If I did this for a living I could make a fortune I am sure. The key is the eagerness with which the client approaches the situation.

I doubt that if JE was resorting to such covert methods that by now someone would not have revealed them either by anonymous comments online or whatnot.

You don't need to be sneaky in order to read people. You don't need to look them up online or anything like that.
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 02:07 PM   #180
desertgal
Illuminator
 
desertgal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,091
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
I'm quite interested in your experience and I hope you don't let the rabid dog cynics here throw you off of returning. I really resent the snide attitude that people have towards new members.
Yeah. Those cynics. Going all snide after the OP decided they were close minded after only one post. How dare those rapid dogs? It would've been much more reasonable for them to suggest that the OP share and discuss her story HERE.

Oh, wait. Seems most of them did exactly that.
desertgal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 02:09 PM   #181
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,840
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...971721/?page=1

Interesting, with stomach cancer the idea that buying a better refrigerator is something that has already had a study done.

Another one
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00011/00009823

Quote:
We used an ecological approach to determine the correlation between vegetable, fruit and salt intakes, refrigerator use, and gastric cancer mortality
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury

Last edited by truethat; 26th November 2012 at 02:12 PM.
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 02:10 PM   #182
Garrette
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,475
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
In my own personal experience as a teacher, this is completely unnecessary to do. If you can read people, most people are pretty predictable. It's not just reading the person, it's reading a room. I read the room all the time when I teach in order to create a meaningful connection and build trust with my students.

Watching another person's reaction to a conversation to the person you are talking to, gives information about that person as well.

Because I'm hearing impaired I pay much more attention to what's going on with the people in the room by body language than an average teacher does.

Ex. A person picks up their water bottle, sees it is empty and puts it back down. That's a clue to take a break, if they want water perhaps others do as well.

Little tiny things that you can simply observe go far in reading your clients.

If I did this for a living I could make a fortune I am sure. The key is the eagerness with which the client approaches the situation.

I doubt that if JE was resorting to such covert methods that by now someone would not have revealed them either by anonymous comments online or whatnot.

You don't need to be sneaky in order to read people. You don't need to look them up online or anything like that.
I would agree that JE frequently and perhaps predominantly does not resort to those methods, but I would be surprised if he does not do it sometimes. In fact, we know he does because of his hot read of the camera man in that expose of however many years ago.
__________________
My kids still love me.
Garrette is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 02:11 PM   #183
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,840
Originally Posted by desertgal View Post
Yeah. Those cynics. Going all snide after the OP decided they were close minded after only one post. How dare those rapid dogs? It would've been much more reasonable for them to suggest that the OP share and discuss her story HERE.

Oh, wait. Seems most of them did exactly that.
The comments were rude considering it is a new poster. Happens all the time on here.
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 02:30 PM   #184
desertgal
Illuminator
 
desertgal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,091
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
The comments were rude considering it is a new poster. Happens all the time on here.
Which comments? Between her first and second post, there were only two comments. One could be taken as cynical and honest. The second encouraged the OP to critically approach her own topic. She rudely responded that the two posters were completely close minded because neither of them wanted to wade through her blog and hundreds of comments THERE in order to discuss the topic she introduced HERE.

Then we were told that, since she has an advanced degree in library science, she clearly has done more research than anyone else about psychic mediums. Or words to that effect. For an educated woman, her reasoning is a little vague.

Following that, she continually offered "JE really, really is authentic and every other medium is really, really fake" without any attempt at critical discussion, and some juvenile attempts at guilt trips over this thread depriving her children of Christmas presents or some such.

It's true there are times when rudeness happens here unnecessarily. There are other times, such as now, when the newcomer immediately assumes an adversarial position and/or refuses to consider the opposing viewpoints they read, and it tends to put people off.

Yet many people encouraged her to discuss her own topic critically. Several, yourself included, were willing to read about her experience and discuss it if she was willing to post it. She refused.

Her blog and comments, which she wants everyone to read THERE before she will discuss it HERE, don't offer anything but an anecdotal account that she then amends in her comments. There's no transcript of her reading with John Edward. There's not even a date when it took place. Her "discussion" here has contained nothing but "I saw JE. He said this and this and this. Oh, wait, and this and that and this. He was right. He really, really was. If you don't agree with me, you are close minded and wrong."

So, why should she be handled with kid gloves?

Last edited by desertgal; 26th November 2012 at 02:33 PM.
desertgal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 02:38 PM   #185
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,840
For someone to dismiss her experience without even reading about it is definitely closed minded. We've made up our minds.

The fair thing to do if you want to reply (which you are not required to do) would be to read the blog and comment back.

There is an epidemic on this site of people deciding to play "sledgehammer the newbie into oblivion" instead of just reading the post and evaluating the information.

Most of us are very familiar with John Edwards and she posted about her experience coming from a cynical point of view. She was very cynical. Then she had an experience that changed her mind.

Obviously she was looking for an experience that would change her mind. And she's believing it. We all have things like this that happen in our lives. There's no need to treat her like an idiot for doing so.

Btw Robin as far as the fingerprints go, that is a very common discussion in buying a new fridge. My sister and I had the exact same one when she didn't get the chrome fridge that she wanted. Fingerprints on chrome are a PITA. So it's not evidence of anything more than common sense.
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 02:41 PM   #186
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
 
RoboTimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Prosperity, AZ
Posts: 25,214
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Most of us are very familiar with John Edwards
Except for his name.
RoboTimbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 02:46 PM   #187
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,518
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
For someone to dismiss her experience without even reading about it is definitely closed minded. We've made up our minds.

The fair thing to do if you want to reply (which you are not required to do) would be to read the blog and comment back.
I prefer Garrette's posts, as they don't "sledgehammer" anyone, merely give her some hints on how this place works. It's not a traffic-builder for your blog; it's a discussion forum. Discuss.

Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
I suspect a drive-by spamming, but just in case:

No, thanks. I will read your links after you sufficiently summarize and discuss it here and read the resources we will provide you to describe confirmation bias, the tricks of mediums like John Edward, and other effects that mislead the unsuspecting into erroneous belief. I also ask that you explain how you, personally, distinguish between fake psychics (I assume you acknowledge that some exist) and the allegedly real psychics like John Edward.

Otherwise, not interested, thanks.
Originally Posted by Robin Stettnisch View Post
Wow, another completely closed-mind! "Not interested" in even reading my link? How does anyone expect to learn ANYTHING without being open to a new opinion and experience?
Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
I will say it again in a different way: If you wish to discuss your experience here, then discuss it here. If, after hearing your discussion I feel your argument may have merit, I will go to your link, but not before.

Or perhaps I could just post links to the Skeptic's Dictionary. Will your open mind read all of those before we discuss anything?
Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Or to put it still another way:

This is a discussion forum, not a go-to-this-link-before-I-even-talk-about-the-specifics forum. And I will happily engage you in the proper definition of open vs. closed minded and whether you or I fit that definition more closely.
It's worth noting that the above back-and-forth took place before there was a working link to the OP's blog. None of us closed-minded meanies could have even read it if we had wanted to.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 02:47 PM   #188
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,840
We're all adults here. Reading her blog is simple. Click read and come back and post. If you are not willing to read the blog then you shouldn't bother commenting in the thread.
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 02:50 PM   #189
desertgal
Illuminator
 
desertgal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,091
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
For someone to dismiss her experience without even reading about it is definitely closed minded. We've made up our minds.
Nonsense. Garrette was not "dismissing her experience". Try reading ALL of his post.

Quote:
The fair thing to do if you want to reply (which you are not required to do) would be to read the blog and comment back.
No, SHE introduced the topic. The fair thing to do would be as Garrette initially suggested:
Quote:
No, thanks. I will read your links after you sufficiently summarize and discuss it here and read the resources we will provide you to describe confirmation bias, the tricks of mediums like John Edward, and other effects that mislead the unsuspecting into erroneous belief. I also ask that you explain how you, personally, distinguish between fake psychics (I assume you acknowledge that some exist) and the allegedly real psychics like John Edward.
Now, do you find anything unreasonable about his suggestion? We ALL have busy lives. SHE chose to bring the topic here. It's called meeting us all halfway.

Quote:
There is an epidemic on this site of people deciding to play "sledgehammer the newbie into oblivion" instead of just reading the post and evaluating the information.
Or the OP could simply post the salient points of her experience HERE and invite the members HERE to discuss it HERE. We're not talking about posting a lengthy dissertation. "I saw him, he said this and that and this" would have sufficed. She could have even copy/pasted her own words from her blog. Two clicks.

Quote:
Most of us are very familiar with John Edwards...
John Edward.

Quote:
...and she posted about her experience coming from a cynical point of view. She was very cynical. Then she had an experience that changed her mind.
Which she refuses to critically examine.

Quote:
Obviously she was looking for an experience that would change her mind. And she's believing it. We all have things like this that happen in our lives. There's no need to treat her like an idiot for doing so.
I don't believe anyone here is treating her like an idiot for believing. I believe there are some who are exasperated at her flat refusing to examine her experience critically, and rejecting any attempts by others to do so.

This is a forum dedicated to critical thinking. She came here with no evidence to support her claim, regardless of where the anecdote was posted, and then rejected any effort at critical thinking, either on her own behalf or from other people.

Once again, why should she be treated with kid gloves?

Last edited by desertgal; 26th November 2012 at 03:00 PM.
desertgal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 02:53 PM   #190
meg
psychic reader
 
meg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kansas USA
Posts: 1,791
Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
I don't know if that applies to JE's group sessions or not, but you are correct about the general method. They also send assistants to look in cars parked out front. I recommend Lamar Keene's "The Psychic Mafia." There's more out there, too, but that is an excellent starting point.

Also, I understand that "Psychic Blues" by Mark Edward is worth a read. I have not personally read it yet, but it is on my list.
I would just like to second this recommendation. "The Psychic Mafia" is indeed an excellent and enlightening read about how these tricksters work.
__________________
"I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
—Alan Greenspan
meg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 02:56 PM   #191
Resume
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,813
Originally Posted by Robin Stettnisch View Post
Considering the rapidity of your response I must guess you did not actually read the blog or any of the comments. The truth is... a completely closed-mind is a very dangerous mindset.
Originally Posted by Robin Stettnisch View Post
Wow, another completely closed-mind! "Not interested" in even reading my link? How does anyone expect to learn ANYTHING without being open to a new opinion and experience?
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
The comments were rude considering it is a new poster. Happens all the time on here.
Check out her second and third posts.

Seems to be giving what she received in return.
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 02:57 PM   #192
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,518
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
We're all adults here. Reading her blog is simple. Click read and come back and post. If you are not willing to read the blog then you shouldn't bother commenting in the thread.
I'm still not qualified to post here, as I've only read about 100 of the 300+ comments, some of which are quite long.


Originally Posted by Robin Stettnisch View Post
For all those seeking the "Truth " about life after death as well as the possibility of communicating with those who have crossed over please read about my experience with psychic medium John Edward. You must ALSO read all the comments to get more details and the full picture. Just google "Proof of life after death Yorktown" or here is the direct link:
yorktown-somers.patch.com/blog.../proof-of-life-after-death
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 02:57 PM   #193
Alphaba
Optical Allusion
 
Alphaba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 536
Nicely complementing cold and hot reading, the interwebz can no longer be underestimated. I'm sure many of you already know the following video, but for those who do not it is worth watching "Amazing mind reader reveals his 'gift'":

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


And to read the explanation.

Last edited by Alphaba; 26th November 2012 at 02:59 PM.
Alphaba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 02:57 PM   #194
Resume
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,813
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
We're all adults here. Reading her blog is simple. Click read and come back and post. If you are not willing to read the blog then you shouldn't bother commenting in the thread.
Her "blog" was slow loading and glitchy for me; a summary wasn't all that difficult a request.
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 03:00 PM   #195
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,518
never mind.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 03:05 PM   #196
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,840
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I'm still not qualified to post here, as I've only read about 100 of the 300+ comments, some of which are quite long.
Not really, it doesn't take that long. It's actually important because in debating her you can see lots of details she misses.

For example her brother Doug, Occam Jr. says that he came to NYC and read in the paper that Valerie Harper was having a show and that there is no way John Edwards could have known that.

Except for the fact that it was in the paper.

So imagine the reading like this


You have a Valerie Harper connection.....Brother didn't buy tickets but remembers reading it in the paper or seeing the billboard for her show, he shrugs and doesn't react because he could care less about Valerie Harper.

So JE moves on to another point. Because he stopped there it was a reaction, it was a hit.


A good way to challenge him would be to say "OH wow! Yes" to almost everything he said and see how the discussion unfolds from there. Because if you can give him clues with your body language he will go right along with it.
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 03:23 PM   #197
Aepervius
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 9,679
Originally Posted by Robin Stettnisch View Post
Communicating with those who have crossed over is not the same as talking to someone on your iphone with a crystal clear connection...and that has been explained in more detail in the comment section of my blog...which is why I will respectfully ask you and all on this thread to ACTUALLY read my blog and ALL the comments because many if not all of your points have ALREADY been addressed there. Then perhaps we can discuss and cover some new ground.
See, all fake medium / fraud function with cold reading or hot reading.

Yeah medium pretend it is not easy , so that they feed you question and you provide them details. For example they say "I see A, P, maybe X" then you answer "Do you mean HA ?" And they answer "yes indeed HA" and then the *perception* stays with the victim that the fraud said the correct statement from the starts. Whcih is why you need the transcript without anything beeing removed / deleted/ summarized you need word for word what you were told. And before you start saying "but not in my case !", the problem is that due to emotional atatchement your brain *already* biased the asnwer whichw ere told to you to match your expectation. That's cold reading.

Hot reading is even worst, they ask a sitter to ask you a few simple question to enable identify you simply research on you (which has become much easier with internet) and find info, and those response are communicated to the fraud. Since the audience is probably fully of people they will always have one or two which are easier to get info from.

Now you pretend you had a *good* reading.

But ehre is the deal : without having a 100% fidel transcript, and without knowing what you told them before and during the seance , all we can tell "cool story bro, but J edward is a fraud he was caught red handed using cold/hot reading". And yourself have no evidence against that, because hey, no real trnascript or say tape showing what was really said.

Last edited by Aepervius; 26th November 2012 at 03:25 PM.
Aepervius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 03:31 PM   #198
truethat
Penultimate Amazing
 
truethat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,840
It seems that people are responding to Robin's situation with generalizations that did not occur in her situation. So while it is clear that something was amiss, we can't just toss it altogether with unrelated examples.

In her example she says she didn't give her name. So if she didn't give her name then how did they do research on her?

How were the tickets paid for?
__________________
“People who say they don't have time to read simply don't want to.”

― Julie Rugg, A Book Addict's Treasury
truethat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 03:40 PM   #199
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
 
RoboTimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Prosperity, AZ
Posts: 25,214
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
It seems that people are responding to Robin's situation with generalizations that did not occur in her situation. So while it is clear that something was amiss, we can't just toss it altogether with unrelated examples.

In her example she says she didn't give her name. So if she didn't give her name then how did they do research on her?

How were the tickets paid for?
There's nothing at all to be done with it. It's an anecdote. It will be forever unfalsifiable. Just as we were to read all of the comments on her blog, no matter what is asked or suggested, there will be additional details which will explain away whatever the doubt is about.

If she has another session with him and records it, we can at least have something to work with.

All you can say about an anecdote is, "Cool story, bro (or sis)."
RoboTimbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2012, 03:46 PM   #200
Squeegee Beckenheim
Philosopher
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 9,646
Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
If she has another session with him and records it, we can at least have something to work with.
Except, of course, that she says that she's been to several of his shows so, by now, she'll be a familiar face and he will know details about her.
Squeegee Beckenheim is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:08 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.