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Old 28th November 2012, 04:57 PM   #1
CplFerro
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When will men and women dress and act the same?

Instead of doing well at dressing and acting like they're members of a noticeably different species? I mean this in light of the ongoing question of how much the intrinsic psychologies of men and women resemble each other, as opposed to being divorced by culture. Men tend to act and dress differently than women and vice versa. Will this ever change, or will "culturally-imprinted" differences persist forever? Will feminism ever win in its stated goal of equality, leading to popular androgyny? Tell me what you think (and keep the stand-ups coming).

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Old 28th November 2012, 05:07 PM   #2
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Since when did equal mean identical?
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Old 28th November 2012, 05:23 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Instead of doing well at dressing and acting like they're members of a noticeably different species? I mean this in light of the ongoing question of how much the intrinsic psychologies of men and women resemble each other, as opposed to being divorced by culture. Men tend to act and dress differently than women and vice versa. Will this ever change, or will "culturally-imprinted" differences persist forever? Will feminism ever win in its stated goal of equality, leading to popular androgyny? Tell me what you think (and keep the stand-ups coming).

Cpl Ferro
I sure as hell hope that day never comes. Androgyny is boring, and equality shouldn't be the same thing as equivalence. You know what you get with androgyny in fashion? You get a living Hell:
http://www.lileks.com/institute/70s/sears1973/7.html
http://www.lileks.com/institute/70s/sears1973/10.html
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Old 28th November 2012, 05:28 PM   #4
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It obviously varies by culture, but on a day to day basis in the US I'd say millions of girls wear jeans and hoodies just like the guys (though they are usually tighter, but it seems some guys have embraced that trend, I could do a whole thread on that topic ).

I've never heard of feminism advocating androgyny. I think it is more against enforced social expectations, like requiring females to wear make-up and heels. So the "ideal" world would not be everyone dressed the same, but everyone dressed without arbitrary gender rules.

(Obviously this doesn't take into account that the gender rules are not entirely detached from the person's desires.)
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Old 28th November 2012, 06:37 PM   #5
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I will split the OP's question into two parts: When will men and women start dressing the same? And, when will men and women start acting the same?

Well, for a decent-sized chunk of America for a decent-sized chunk of the time, they already do: a t-shirt or sweatshirt, and jeans or athletic pants; comfortable, usually athletic, shoes. This is not to say that a given individual doesn't sometimes dress "according to gender" or that some people don't avoid this casual, comfortable unisex style; but especially in the under-50 crowd, there is much less emphasis on the kinds of fashion that are in essense gender uniforms. Also, for many businesses, the uniforms for the men and women are nearly identical (except for being cut to fit the different distribution of weight). Add in the creeping obesity of American culture, and there is even less wardrobe difference.

One immediate response to that part of the OP's post is, however, What are you asking? How does feminist request for equality translate to androgyny? Men who are paid alike for doing the same job don't all dress alike; people who receive the same access to promotions, or are given loans with the same qualifications, don't have any reason to dress the same or similarly. I think there's a misunderstanding of 'what feminists are after' here.

On to part two: When will men and women act alike? NEVER. There are specific differences in biology and in psychology between the sexes. Experiments with pooled, non-parental childcare; with 'gender neutral' toys and activities, etc don't result in strikingly different trends in how males and females act. As in any inherent difference, we are talking trends and specific individuals may be outliers; but the overall division is clear. (There are many, many books on this topic, and more studies being done all the time.) The impact of sex hormones on a developing child are large, significant, and lasting. Also, socialization is never going to be identical for boys and girls--even if that were somehow desirable it would not be attainable. The caregivers are going to have their own context of male/female that will influence them, however much they'd like to "treat everyone the same."

Again, one is moved to ask: How did "equal" become translated to "the same"? Let me use an analogy: In a sporting event like an Olympic race, the venue has been laid out in such a way, the starts are staggered in such a way, the allowable drugs and supplements have been policed in such a way, as to try to make the opportunity for each athlete to win the race EQUAL. This does not, by any conceivable rationalization, mean that we should expect everyone to finish in the same time! (Bonus sidebar: Name the sports where men and women compete against each other as equals. Hint: It's a summer games event.)

Equality has to do with fairness, with opportunity, and with not limiting the return a person can get on their efforts. It may, in some contexts, even mean 'staggering the start' in recognition that the inside lane is shorter from start to finish than the outside lane. That's why programs like pre-K 'headstart' for lower income kids is a good idea; it's the most effective way to make sure that children born into a metaphorical outside lane still have a good chance to finish at the top if they run the fastest race.

But equality of opportunity, fairhanded dealing, honest judging, and reasonable payment for work done does NOT mean that everyone will be somehow the SAME -- in their esthetics, their behavior, or even their income. People with drive, with initiative, and with self-promotion skills and inclination (one area where women tend to fall short) will tend to make more in a congruent position, because they've achieved more and made sure the boss knows about it.

Just my thoughts, Miss_Kitt


ETA The equestrian events! Dressage, jumping, driving, and 'three day' events all have men and women (and, for that matter, stallions, mares, and geldings) competing against each other. A team event does not have any limitations or exclusions on what the gender of the human athletes need be, either: A team could be all female, or male, or some mix.
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Last edited by Miss_Kitt; 28th November 2012 at 06:41 PM. Reason: forgot to include answer to bonus question
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Old 28th November 2012, 07:06 PM   #6
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Never.
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Old 28th November 2012, 07:29 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Never.
^^^ This.

And that's a good thing.
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Old 28th November 2012, 07:31 PM   #8
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Why bring women down to our level?
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Old 28th November 2012, 07:39 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Never.
Why, just today I was pondering how women could stand eating with their feet and skipping everywhere they went.
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Old 28th November 2012, 07:45 PM   #10
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My daughter wears jeans and carries a heavy toolbag to work every single day; my son wears a kilt.

And what Hokulele said.
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Old 28th November 2012, 07:46 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Since when did equal mean identical?
^This.
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Old 28th November 2012, 07:55 PM   #12
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Should we all wear dresses? Or shall women all wear tuxedos. Because making us all gender neutral would suck and we'd look like Romulans or something. Or J'naii *shudders*

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Old 28th November 2012, 08:05 PM   #13
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Perhaps one day we won't tie behavior and appearance to sex. Sally wears a dress because she bloody feels like it, not because she's a woman and it's a woman thing to wear. Billy wears a dress because he bloody feels like it, and who gives a damn? It's clothing. Big freaking deal.

I'm the same sex whether I'm wearing "male" clothes, "female" clothes, or nothing at all. I can't think why we imbue inanimate objects with attributes only possessed by humans. And transient ones, at that. What one century sees one way another sees completely opposite. In the past, men wore skirts and robes. Heck, our precious Founding Fathers not only had pony-tailed hair, but they wore wigs on top! Not to mention the silk stockings and high heels. Before them, it was men in hose. Before that, robes and smocks, and before that skirts again.
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Old 28th November 2012, 08:08 PM   #14
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Hmmmmmphhhhh.........

If my son wore a dress I'd sit him down in front of the pitcher box and make him watch Walker,Texas Ranger until he grew a pair!!!!!!!
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Old 28th November 2012, 08:17 PM   #15
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Change will always happen. I grieve for the day when both sexes and all cultures/ethnicities behave the same.

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Old 28th November 2012, 08:18 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
Hmmmmmphhhhh.........

If my son wore a dress I'd sit him down in front of the pitcher box and make him watch Walker,Texas Ranger until he grew a pair!!!!!!!
How about John Wayne movies?
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Old 28th November 2012, 08:22 PM   #17
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John Wayne? son, have you not heard of Chuck Norris?
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Old 28th November 2012, 08:24 PM   #18
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"notably different species"

What?
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Old 28th November 2012, 08:45 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Instead of doing well at dressing and acting like they're members of a noticeably different species? I mean this in light of the ongoing question of how much the intrinsic psychologies of men and women resemble each other, as opposed to being divorced by culture. Men tend to act and dress differently than women and vice versa. Will this ever change, or will "culturally-imprinted" differences persist forever? Will feminism ever win in its stated goal of equality, leading to popular androgyny? Tell me what you think (and keep the stand-ups coming).

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The word equality means equal under law, not look alike.
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Old 29th November 2012, 06:20 AM   #20
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Well, I do love wearing 36DD bras but my pecs don't quite fill them properly. I also love wearing women's panties but they don't quite accommodate my genitals so they wear out pretty fast. And while I do have gorgeous eyelashes that would be perfect for mascara, my facial hair grows way too fast to make other makeup "work". Ditto for my hairy legs and pantyhose (and I'd need a dozen Gillette Venus razors just to shave one leg below the knee). And when I use the ladies room in public places, I get called a pervert, a freak or a sex offender (and they call security on me). And it's really hard to find a good pair of high heels in my size.

All kidding aside, there's too many "forces" at work to make androgyny the one-size-fits-all way of life.
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Old 29th November 2012, 07:45 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Lowpro View Post
Why bring women down to our level?
Why put women on a pedestal?
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Old 29th November 2012, 07:56 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
John Wayne? son, have you not heard of Chuck Norris?
Chuck Norris is a wussy. Chuck Norris wears Jack Bauer pajamas.

Women may wear any style of clothing they wish, they will still attract the attention of men. I have no trouble identifying a woman in "man clothes", and am usually pleased by the sight.
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Old 29th November 2012, 08:13 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
Hmmmmmphhhhh.........

If my son wore a dress I'd sit him down in front of the pitcher box and make him watch Walker,Texas Ranger until he grew a pair!!!!!!!
"He sure is handsome, daddy!"
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Old 29th November 2012, 08:45 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Why put women on a pedestal?
Easier to see up the skirt that way.

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Old 29th November 2012, 09:04 AM   #25
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How much of gender is determined by what we wear? Certain clothing styles, fabrics, colours even, are perhaps seen as more suitable for one sex than the other. But that varies from culture to culture and time to time.

All other things being equal (i.e. no-one were offended by a particular mode of dress), if everyone wore whatever they wanted, would it matter?

Another thing to consider, if all clothing were unisex, would transvestites be confused?
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Old 29th November 2012, 09:32 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Instead of doing well at dressing and acting like they're members of a noticeably different species? I mean this in light of the ongoing question of how much the intrinsic psychologies of men and women resemble each other, as opposed to being divorced by culture. Men tend to act and dress differently than women and vice versa. Will this ever change, or will "culturally-imprinted" differences persist forever? Will feminism ever win in its stated goal of equality, leading to popular androgyny? Tell me what you think (and keep the stand-ups coming).

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Old 29th November 2012, 09:41 AM   #27
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Most women I know dress similarly to most men I know. Only times they really dress differently is when they're going out or something like that.

Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
Hmmmmmphhhhh.........

If my son wore a dress I'd sit him down in front of the pitcher box and make him watch Walker,Texas Ranger until he grew a pair!!!!!!!
I was nearly in agreement with you. Maybe if you had used one more exclamation point?

It's a bit strange, though.

Women wearing traditional male clothes, like tuxedos, suits, etc: Sexy!

Men wearing traditional female clothes, like a dress: Sick weirdo who needs to "grow a pair".

Why is this?
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Old 29th November 2012, 10:17 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Miss_Kitt View Post
I will split the OP's question into two parts: When will men and women start dressing the same? And, when will men and women start acting the same?

Well, for a decent-sized chunk of America for a decent-sized chunk of the time, they already do: a t-shirt or sweatshirt, and jeans or athletic pants; comfortable, usually athletic, shoes. This is not to say that a given individual doesn't sometimes dress "according to gender" or that some people don't avoid this casual, comfortable unisex style; but especially in the under-50 crowd, there is much less emphasis on the kinds of fashion that are in essense gender uniforms. Also, for many businesses, the uniforms for the men and women are nearly identical (except for being cut to fit the different distribution of weight). Add in the creeping obesity of American culture, and there is even less wardrobe difference.

One immediate response to that part of the OP's post is, however, What are you asking? How does feminist request for equality translate to androgyny? Men who are paid alike for doing the same job don't all dress alike; people who receive the same access to promotions, or are given loans with the same qualifications, don't have any reason to dress the same or similarly. I think there's a misunderstanding of 'what feminists are after' here.

On to part two: When will men and women act alike? NEVER. There are specific differences in biology and in psychology between the sexes. Experiments with pooled, non-parental childcare; with 'gender neutral' toys and activities, etc don't result in strikingly different trends in how males and females act. As in any inherent difference, we are talking trends and specific individuals may be outliers; but the overall division is clear. (There are many, many books on this topic, and more studies being done all the time.) The impact of sex hormones on a developing child are large, significant, and lasting. Also, socialization is never going to be identical for boys and girls--even if that were somehow desirable it would not be attainable. The caregivers are going to have their own context of male/female that will influence them, however much they'd like to "treat everyone the same."

Again, one is moved to ask: How did "equal" become translated to "the same"? Let me use an analogy: In a sporting event like an Olympic race, the venue has been laid out in such a way, the starts are staggered in such a way, the allowable drugs and supplements have been policed in such a way, as to try to make the opportunity for each athlete to win the race EQUAL. This does not, by any conceivable rationalization, mean that we should expect everyone to finish in the same time! (Bonus sidebar: Name the sports where men and women compete against each other as equals. Hint: It's a summer games event.)

Equality has to do with fairness, with opportunity, and with not limiting the return a person can get on their efforts. It may, in some contexts, even mean 'staggering the start' in recognition that the inside lane is shorter from start to finish than the outside lane. That's why programs like pre-K 'headstart' for lower income kids is a good idea; it's the most effective way to make sure that children born into a metaphorical outside lane still have a good chance to finish at the top if they run the fastest race.

But equality of opportunity, fairhanded dealing, honest judging, and reasonable payment for work done does NOT mean that everyone will be somehow the SAME -- in their esthetics, their behavior, or even their income. People with drive, with initiative, and with self-promotion skills and inclination (one area where women tend to fall short) will tend to make more in a congruent position, because they've achieved more and made sure the boss knows about it.

Just my thoughts, Miss_Kitt


ETA The equestrian events! Dressage, jumping, driving, and 'three day' events all have men and women (and, for that matter, stallions, mares, and geldings) competing against each other. A team event does not have any limitations or exclusions on what the gender of the human athletes need be, either: A team could be all female, or male, or some mix.
While it is perfectly acceptable in most circles (in the US anyway) for women to wear traditionally male clothing, the reverse is not really the case. If I (a male) were to walk around in a black satin dress, I think it would draw some unfavorable comments.
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Old 29th November 2012, 10:20 AM   #29
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Will never act completely the same. We're biologically different.
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Old 29th November 2012, 10:40 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Miss_Kitt View Post
I will split the OP's question into two parts: When will men and women start dressing the same? And, when will men and women start acting the same?

Well, for a decent-sized chunk of America for a decent-sized chunk of the time, they already do: a t-shirt or sweatshirt, and jeans or athletic pants; comfortable, usually athletic, shoes. This is not to say that a given individual doesn't sometimes dress "according to gender" or that some people don't avoid this casual, comfortable unisex style; but especially in the under-50 crowd, there is much less emphasis on the kinds of fashion that are in essense gender uniforms. Also, for many businesses, the uniforms for the men and women are nearly identical (except for being cut to fit the different distribution of weight). Add in the creeping obesity of American culture, and there is even less wardrobe difference.

One immediate response to that part of the OP's post is, however, What are you asking? How does feminist request for equality translate to androgyny? Men who are paid alike for doing the same job don't all dress alike; people who receive the same access to promotions, or are given loans with the same qualifications, don't have any reason to dress the same or similarly. I think there's a misunderstanding of 'what feminists are after' here.

On to part two: When will men and women act alike? NEVER. There are specific differences in biology and in psychology between the sexes. Experiments with pooled, non-parental childcare; with 'gender neutral' toys and activities, etc don't result in strikingly different trends in how males and females act. As in any inherent difference, we are talking trends and specific individuals may be outliers; but the overall division is clear. (There are many, many books on this topic, and more studies being done all the time.) The impact of sex hormones on a developing child are large, significant, and lasting. Also, socialization is never going to be identical for boys and girls--even if that were somehow desirable it would not be attainable. The caregivers are going to have their own context of male/female that will influence them, however much they'd like to "treat everyone the same."

Again, one is moved to ask: How did "equal" become translated to "the same"? Let me use an analogy: In a sporting event like an Olympic race, the venue has been laid out in such a way, the starts are staggered in such a way, the allowable drugs and supplements have been policed in such a way, as to try to make the opportunity for each athlete to win the race EQUAL. This does not, by any conceivable rationalization, mean that we should expect everyone to finish in the same time! (Bonus sidebar: Name the sports where men and women compete against each other as equals. Hint: It's a summer games event.)

Equality has to do with fairness, with opportunity, and with not limiting the return a person can get on their efforts. It may, in some contexts, even mean 'staggering the start' in recognition that the inside lane is shorter from start to finish than the outside lane. That's why programs like pre-K 'headstart' for lower income kids is a good idea; it's the most effective way to make sure that children born into a metaphorical outside lane still have a good chance to finish at the top if they run the fastest race.

But equality of opportunity, fairhanded dealing, honest judging, and reasonable payment for work done does NOT mean that everyone will be somehow the SAME -- in their esthetics, their behavior, or even their income. People with drive, with initiative, and with self-promotion skills and inclination (one area where women tend to fall short) will tend to make more in a congruent position, because they've achieved more and made sure the boss knows about it.

Just my thoughts, Miss_Kitt


ETA The equestrian events! Dressage, jumping, driving, and 'three day' events all have men and women (and, for that matter, stallions, mares, and geldings) competing against each other. A team event does not have any limitations or exclusions on what the gender of the human athletes need be, either: A team could be all female, or male, or some mix.
Dear Miss_Kitt,

I'm responding to the feminism I have imbibed, which--and the Swedish gender-neutral social experiments are a result of this--assert that men and women have no non-cultural mental differences.

(There is another part of feminism that expresses misandry to such a degree they appear to be asserting that there is a "manichean essentialism" between the sexes.)

If men and women are, at birth, psychologically identical, and if stereotypical male and female behavioural and sartorial differences are wholly a result of cultural conditioning, then why wouldn't we expect, once those cultural norms have been overthrown, to see the sexes acting and dressing the same?

Can you recommend the best book, study, or website that nails sex-psychology differences to the wall?

Cpl Ferro
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Old 29th November 2012, 11:02 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Almo View Post
Will never act completely the same. We're biologically different.
Dear Almo,

Do you have any books, studies, or websites to back that up? I remember a recent public television show featuring neuroscientists who claim there is no meaningful difference between male and female brains. If what you're saying is true, it's hardly been proven definitively in the public sphere.

Cpl Ferro
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Old 29th November 2012, 02:10 PM   #32
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Brains are subject to natural and sexual selection.

If your neuroscientists are right, Darwin is wrong, at least on sexual selection in humans.

I suspect what they actually said is that there is very little consistent major structural difference discernable by current technology - and that what there is, is not strictly divided along gender grounds.
Androgens can and do "sexualise" behaviour- and behaviour involves brains.

What may (and likely is) true is that the systematic differences between male and female brains are actually swamped by variation between individuals of either sex, but that doesn't mean there is no consistent gender difference.

Bear in mind too that even two structurally identical brains will develop differently if exposed to different chemical concentrations. While not apparent on a CAT scanner, the output of the two might be very distinct.
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Old 29th November 2012, 02:14 PM   #33
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Male and female will dress identically when we are all bisexual.
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Old 29th November 2012, 02:22 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
John Wayne? son, have you not heard of Chuck Norris?
I was setting up a "Repo Man" joke. Man do I feel old now.
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Old 29th November 2012, 02:23 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
While it is perfectly acceptable in most circles (in the US anyway) for women to wear traditionally male clothing, the reverse is not really the case. If I (a male) were to walk around in a black satin dress, I think it would draw some unfavorable comments.
Depends on how nice your legs are, I suppose.
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Old 29th November 2012, 02:40 PM   #36
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About the same time Lyndon LaRouch becomes President...
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Old 29th November 2012, 02:57 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
Chuck Norris is a wussy. Chuck Norris wears Jack Bauer pajamas.

.
Chuck Norris once had a drill sergeant tell him to drop and give him 20, that's how we got the moon

Last edited by StankApe; 29th November 2012 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 29th November 2012, 02:58 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Dear Almo,

Do you have any books, studies, or websites to back that up? I remember a recent public television show featuring neuroscientists who claim there is no meaningful difference between male and female brains. If what you're saying is true, it's hardly been proven definitively in the public sphere.

Cpl Ferro
You saw a show once? Ha ha.

He said "biologically different". Some people have a penis, others a vagina. There are many books with pictures that prove this.

If politically correctness gets that far I don't wanna be around.
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Old 29th November 2012, 02:59 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Piscivore View Post
I was setting up a "Repo Man" joke. Man do I feel old now.
Yer not old! I just forgot the line! (I assume you are referring to the great Alex Cox film starring Emilio Estevez and the great Harry Dean Stanton)

Love it! just haven't seen it in years.
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Old 29th November 2012, 03:21 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
Hmmmmmphhhhh.........

If my son wore a dress I'd sit him down in front of the pitcher box and make him watch Walker,Texas Ranger until he grew a pair!!!!!!!
Why make him wait? You can buy a beautiful pair of breasts for him at the local plastic surgeon.
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