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Old 2nd December 2012, 01:29 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Are there any psychotropic plants that grow in African grasslands?

Well that is an interesting question. Much more worthy of investigation that the mushrooms, if you ask me.
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Old 2nd December 2012, 03:00 PM   #162
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Well, I have tried many different drugs and none of them gave me a higher than normal sex drive. In fact, they took my mind off sex and onto other more cerebral things.

Of course, this is anecdote, just like everything Zeuzzz brings up.

Zeuzzz, without scientific studies to back it up, why on earth do you think this is science? Have you considered studying evolution and writing a paper for peer review about this?
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Old 2nd December 2012, 03:53 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Spaghetti View Post
Well, I have tried many different drugs and none of them gave me a higher than normal sex drive. In fact, they took my mind off sex and onto other more cerebral things.

Of course, this is anecdote, just like everything Zeuzzz brings up.

Zeuzzz, without scientific studies to back it up, why on earth do you think this is science? Have you considered studying evolution and writing a paper for peer review about this?
Amphetamines have a reputation for producing this effect.
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Old 2nd December 2012, 06:33 PM   #164
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Rape's role in evolution, imho, is extremely strong, yet seldom mentioned.
It makes us uncomfortable.

Maybe the same is true with drugs.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 02:22 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
One place psilocybin mushrooms do not grow is dry grassland. These include low moisture levels and high sunlight; both characteristics that are the opposite of what is favoured by mushrooms.

As it happens, primitive humans lived on African grasslands, not in damp forests.

Thus, early humans did not live in the same habitat as psilocybin mushrooms, making it exceedingly improbable that they had any significant impact on our evolution.

Did you include Psilocybe cubensis transkei and Psilocybe Natalensis in your consideration ?

I have seen Natalensis in 600mm rainfall /year grassland areas.

I have seen transkei grow on cowdung in <500mm/year rainfall areas.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 02:29 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
Well that is an interesting question. Much more worthy of investigation that the mushrooms, if you ask me.
An area than can do with more research, yes.

Acacias contain DMT, along with various other actives.



The source presumably need not be plant-based ?

When looking into this some time ago, I recall reading reports of regular typical DMT-effects experienced by African tribes during their initiation hunt of a Giraffe followed by the consumption of the raw neck-marrow.

Possibly by chance, a significant portion of the giraffe's diet consists of the DMT-rich acacia leaves ?
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Old 3rd December 2012, 02:50 AM   #167
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I don't think what is in doubt it that our asters eat only usual fruit. But they no doubt starting to experiment will all sorts, when low eoughthey could see mimosa hostiles root-bark, cubensis, natural fros, grassland, syrian rue, coca leaves, cannabis, etc would have been loved once initially discovered.

As our culture still goes with the 60's LSD campiang most people still quote qround, now we don't have too much intercultural and anti drug eduction to esuage people off them inpartially. The reasons kids are still told from as yoults; about drugs especially (NOT BOOZE OR FAGS THO! [but why the way are also drugs too, and some of the most additive ones]) is hysterical.

Last edited by Zeuzzz; 3rd December 2012 at 02:54 AM.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 02:51 AM   #168
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^
I'll never look at a giraffe again without remembering that post.

Originally Posted by Libra View Post
Did you include Psilocybe cubensis transkei and Psilocybe Natalensis in your consideration ?

I have seen Natalensis in 600mm rainfall /year grassland areas.

I have seen transkei grow on cowdung in <500mm/year rainfall areas.
Interesting.
Could any of these candidates have been found in African grasslands 190,000 BCE?
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Old 3rd December 2012, 03:21 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Spaghetti View Post
Well, I have tried many different drugs and none of them gave me a higher than normal sex drive. In fact, they took my mind off sex and onto other more cerebral things.

Of course, this is anecdote, just like everything Zeuzzz brings up.

Zeuzzz, without scientific studies to back it up, why on earth do you think this is science? Have you considered studying evolution and writing a paper for peer review about this?

I do have scientific studies. But the trouble with me posting such here when numerous people have asked from all directions for scientific studies is like me killing on bull of a charging heard. I'd rather wait here till the commonest part I should include or the eidence for is dead. If I supply choose one of many now, randomly, not onlywill others demand Ignored their questioning, other will likely just add more to me to find, seems to be trend. OF a never winning cycle.

I'll probably just speak to Dinwar soon unless someone else come up with a solid argument against it.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 03:24 AM   #170
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This entire discussion has jogged a distant memory
Robert Graves, of course.
What Food the Centaurs Ate (Steps: Cassell & Co., 1958

Anyway, Zeuzzz, how about the cave art you've promised us?
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Old 3rd December 2012, 04:18 AM   #171
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Is it just me, or have Zuezzz's last three posts been noticeably less coherent than his previous ones? The cause of this is something that I can only speculate on.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 05:33 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by quarky View Post
Rape's role in evolution, imho, is extremely strong, yet seldom mentioned.
It makes us uncomfortable.

Maybe the same is true with drugs.
Well except for one thing the penalty for rape in most ancient (extended from historic records) societies is death.

Most H/G groups frown upon the practice and kill the perpetrator.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 05:36 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
I do have scientific studies. But the trouble with me posting such here when numerous people have asked from all directions for scientific studies is like me killing on bull of a charging heard. I'd rather wait here till the commonest part I should include or the eidence for is dead. If I supply choose one of many now, randomly, not onlywill others demand Ignored their questioning, other will likely just add more to me to find, seems to be trend. OF a never winning cycle.

I'll probably just speak to Dinwar soon unless someone else come up with a solid argument against it.
Yup, no evidence of the widespread depiction of mushrooms in cave art.

You come to a critical thinking forum and act surprised when people ask you to substantiate your ideas. color me shocked.

Maybe the issue is that you don't have the data and you don't have the evidence to support your argument.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 05:40 AM   #174
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I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised by Zeuzzz' cave art connection.
Google was disappointing, to say the least.
Maybe dogpile is a better choice here.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 06:54 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Well except for one thing the penalty for rape in most ancient (extended from historic records) societies is death.

Most H/G groups frown upon the practice and kill the perpetrator.
To be fair, that was usually within their own group. Not to mentiont hat some would kill the victim, rather than the perpetrator (or both).

Anyway, I suspect quarky might be discussing actions taken against neighboring tribes.

Just guessing, though.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 07:35 AM   #176
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Oh, dear.
This post
Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
^
I'll never look at a giraffe again without remembering that post. ...
was in reply to

Originally Posted by Libra View Post
...When looking into this some time ago, I recall reading reports of regular typical DMT-effects experienced by African tribes during their initiation hunt of a Giraffe followed by the consumption of the raw neck-marrow.

Possibly by chance, a significant portion of the giraffe's diet consists of the DMT-rich acacia leaves ?
and not Zeuzzz' evasion of complying with their offer to show us cave art in relation to magic mushroom consumption:

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
I don't think what is in doubt it that our asters eat only usual fruit. But they no doubt starting to experiment will all sorts, when low eoughthey could see mimosa hostiles root-bark, cubensis, natural fros, grassland, syrian rue, coca leaves, cannabis, etc would have been loved once initially discovered.

As our culture still goes with the 60's LSD campiang most people still quote qround, now we don't have too much intercultural and anti drug eduction to esuage people off them inpartially. The reasons kids are still told from as yoults; about drugs especially (NOT BOOZE OR FAGS THO! [but why the way are also drugs too, and some of the most additive ones]) is hysterical.
This post seems to be begging to be in CT.
Anyway.
Cave art, Zeuzzz?
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Old 3rd December 2012, 08:08 AM   #177
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Well I am using mainly pictures from Stammet, and he's traveled the worlds He a mycologist, and any other scientists generally too, they have found out much. In case I can't be bothered to poast each one here is the album with them all in http://www.mediafire.com/?7atxepwh7s8d1

These all tend to be 4000 BC to modern day, cultures were well enough be equipped to create such long lasting evidence. by the, and most avrt on them (although useful, if far more to criticism and alternative 'our ancients were superstitious religious fools' type arguments.

(note: all pics now on my pritvate server)



http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushroo...arcotics.shtml
(food article in all)
Quote:
The paramedical use of the hallucinogens

An important aspect of psychotomimetic agents, which lies beyond the scope of natural science, is their paramedical use. Already pertaining to this is the use of magic drugs such as teonanàcatl and ololiuqui for cultic and divinatory purposes which dates back from time immemorial and which is still found in various cultures. The use of psychotomimetics as "consciousness-expanding ", "mind-altering" drugs by nonmedical circles in our Western hemisphere today, which is also based on the scarcely describable, profound, almost magical psychic effects of these compounds, is also related in a certain sense to their cultic use.

There are fluent transitions from the strictly scientific medical-biological tests with these compounds, their use in psychological studies as educational aids, as tools for learning more about the potentialities of the human mind, and in studies on the nature of religious and mystical experiences, to their misuse as substitutes for intoxicants and for "kicks" in teenager and hippy circles. As an example of a study on the nature of mystical consciousness with the aid of a psychedelic drug the investigation of Pahnke ( [66] ) may be mentioned. He analysed the effect of psilocybin on students of theology during a Good Friday service of worship, with respect to the enhancement of the religious experience, and this enabled him to determine reactions that correspond to the criteria of a real mystical experience.

Aside from authors like Aldous Huxley who approved or even recommended chemical psychostimulants such as LSD, psilocybin and mescaline as modern forms of cultic drugs and as admissible aids in the human striving for transcendency, there are a number of others who consider such use of psychotomimetics an aberration. This opinion is expressed, for example, by Zaehner of Oxford in his book "Mysticism, Sacred and Profane" ([67] ).

Under the influence of psychotomimetic agents the sensitivity of our senses and the experience of sensory perceptions, which determine our conception of the universe, as well as the experience of our own personality, are changed. What corresponds to the reality : the everyday impression often perceived by dulled senses, or a picture of the world perceived by stimulated nerves and brain centres, sometimes experienced in ecstasy ? It is precisely because of the overwhelming impression of reality of these pictures and the accompanying feeling of unity with the universe that many persons believe the extraordinary condition elicited by these compounds to be a true mystical experience. On the other hand the opinion that, by the ingestion of a chemical substance, it may be possible to attain new knowledge or even insight of a religious nature in an easy way without moral or mental effort is difficult to reconcile with traditional views.

Refs:
066 W. N. Pahnke, Thesis, Harvard Univ. Cambridge, Mass., June 1963.
067 R. C. Zaehner, "Mysticism, Sacred and Profane ", Clarendon, Oxford, 1957.




Shiva out with mushrooms:










http://www.mushroomstone.com/somaintheamericas.htm
Quote:
Over the years there has been a lot of speculation among scholars concerning the true identity of the mystery plant in the Rig Veda called Soma, the only plant known to have been deified in the history of human culture, (Furst, 1972:201). While the hymns about Soma have come down to us through time, the botanical identity of Soma remains a mystery. Theories abound as to Soma's forgotten identity, yet among Vedic and Hindu scholars Soma is believed to be a species of Ephedra.

We know from the sacred texts called the Rig Veda that Soma was an intoxicating plant worshiped as both a god and holy beverage by a people who called themselves Aryans. The Aryans, who introduced their Soma religion into the Indus Valley civilization around 1600 B.C.,believed that sacrifices were necessary to keep the world in balance, which they believed were necessary. This balance was maintained through the acts of ritual sacrifice and the offering of a hallucinogenic drink called Soma, and Haoma among the ancient Persians of Iran. After closely examining the archaeological and historical evidence, we find many parallels between the ancient Vedic religion of East India, with the mythology and religion of the Americas.

The prevailing anthropological view of ancient New World history is that its indigenous peoples developed their own complex cultures independent of outside influence or inspiration. Any suggestions to the contrary have been generally dismissed as either fanciful, racist, or demeaning. The peoples of the New World, scholars have argued, were fully capable of developing their own civilizations as sophisticated as any found in Asia or the West. Today trans-oceanic contact between the hemispheres is still considered highly unlikely despite the exception of the Viking outpost discovered in Newfoundland in the 1960's, and the recent awareness that early humans reached far distant Australia by boat as many as 50,000 years ago. After viewing the visual evidence presented below, readers of this study may wish to challenge this view of New World history with a more open-minded acknowledgement of the capability of ancient peoples to explore their environment and disperse their intellectual heritage to its far corners. [...]

Old cave art:







A few references on this page if you the dates and names of some of the historical discoverers. http://www.mushroomstone.com/somaintheamericas.htm





e.com/view/?pdpwvg758w743kc]


[/url]
















http://people.tribe.net/4bfc7525-8501-4fb8-9746-7e81472b6b37/blog/1353647c-8191-48d9-a849-7ec3862bba6d
Quote:
The transformational features of the mushroom also have a historical meaning, though not one that you’ll find in many history books. Ethnobotanist and "psychonaut" Terence McKenna put forth, in his book Food for the Gods, the theory that psychoactive mushrooms were a crucial catalyst in our rapid evolution. The human brain tripled in size over several million years; the hallucinogenic compound DMT (di-methyl-tryptamine), found in the mushrooms and other plants used by shamans, is one of the chemical factors that McKenna theorizes played a role: "We literally may have eaten our way to higher consciousness." DMT is also naturally produced in small amounts in the pineal gland, notably in deep dream states and at birth and death.







One the oldest intact sculptures, from around they Egyptian era:









Can I copy some of the mushroom and psychedelic inspired aret from caves and rocks from prehistory Hamans times, or is that going to get a series of "oh it looks like a nubby, it must be a bunny!" type dismissals?

If so I'll just stick to the science papers by Nichols, Stammets, et al.

Last edited by Zeuzzz; 3rd December 2012 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 09:12 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
To be fair, that was usually within their own group. Not to mentiont hat some would kill the victim, rather than the perpetrator (or both).

Anyway, I suspect quarky might be discussing actions taken against neighboring tribes.

Just guessing, though.
Sure but my guess, and it is a guess, is that froced sex prior to agrarian warfare and slavery was rather low. The Yanamamo not excluded.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 09:14 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Well I am using mainly pictures from Stammet, and he's traveled the worlds He a mycologist, ...If so I'll just stick to the science papers by Nichols, Stammets, et al.
And the paleolithic cave art?
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Old 3rd December 2012, 09:38 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Well I am using mainly pictures from Stammet, and he's traveled the worlds He a mycologist, and any other scientists generally too, they have found out much. ...
Well, that was fun.
I never knew a feline nose could be confused with a mushroom.
Nor that lingam stones could be confused with mushrooms.

None of those illustrations really address the subject of the thread, though.
Remember?
Shrooms as an evolutionary factor?
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Old 3rd December 2012, 10:35 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
Can I copy some of the mushroom and psychedelic inspired aret from caves and rocks from prehistory Hamans times, or is that going to get a series of "oh it looks like a nubby, it must be a bunny!" type dismissals?
I've already mentioned the two oldest paintings you list (thought they happen to be drawings taken from some photographs which makes them slightly less reliable than they otherwise would be and I am not sure if I have ever seen original photographs*) and mentioned that my objection to them is that they aren't even older than 10000.


* I think I know what book to find them in. It's on Google books but does not seem to be viewable and I'm not about to buy it. I do wonder if the drawings are good reproductions or embellished. In particular, I am hoping that the most famous of these photographs is not sourced from the one below:


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Old 3rd December 2012, 10:37 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
To be fair, that was usually within their own group. Not to mentiont hat some would kill the victim, rather than the perpetrator (or both).

Anyway, I suspect quarky might be discussing actions taken against neighboring tribes.

Just guessing, though.
Absolutely. Genghis Khan's descendents weren't exactly conceived in love.
In the U.S., the fantasy is that black slaves raped white women. The opposite is mostly true. Slave masters raped their female slaves. It wasn't even a crime.

This is where we get most of the light-skinned Afro-Americans.
Our president is the exception to the rule.
This area of genetics is still mostly taboo.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 10:41 AM   #183
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It's one thing to show evidence for the importance of the mushroom in the ritualistic and spiritual history of primitive man (and I doubt if many of us here would deny that) and something completely different to make the leap to evolution.

Think of what you are saying:

I take mushroom and knock up a nice primitive lady. We have kids, are you alleging that due to my mushroom taking during conception that I have somehow transferred a "smart gene" to my offspring? Isn't this akin to saying that because I had a large hamburger before sexy time that I will have "beefier" kids?

Heck, unless you can first prove that Magic Shrooms have the ability to alter DNA I don't think you have much of a case.

Unless you are talking about a cultural rather than genetic evolution.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:34 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
Think of what you are saying:

I take mushroom and knock up a nice primitive lady. We have kids, are you alleging that due to my mushroom taking during conception that I have somehow transferred a "smart gene" to my offspring? Isn't this akin to saying that because I had a large hamburger before sexy time that I will have "beefier" kids?

Heck, unless you can first prove that Magic Shrooms have the ability to alter DNA I don't think you have much of a case.

Unless you are talking about a cultural rather than genetic evolution.
I don't think that's what anyone would be saying (though I could be mistaken). It would be more like a cultural revolution. One cannot be considered in isolation from the other, however. A cultural evolution can also (and almost certainly will) drive a genetic evolution. If the culture results in the re-valuing of certain skills and behaviors (which, hypothetically might have been unleashed by psychedelic experiences, in this case*) then evolution may end up favoring the individuals who express them and if these characteristics have a genetic component then you've just altered the course of biological evolution.

If, for instance, the psychedelic experience allowed a richer expression of shamanism and this elevated the status of some people who would otherwise have to compete with Mongo (who take down paleolithic horse with single punch to head) on Mongo's terms, then you might have enhanced their reproductive success and diminished Mongo's (Mongo sad now ). A shift in perspective (which may be achieved with psychedelics), when mirrored in the prevailing cultural forces, could do such a thing.

The Black Monolith in 2001 Space Odissey does not change the genetics of our ancestors. It changes their way of thinking. However, not everyone is as able, genetically, to make as full use of what the Black Monolith has to offer. Once their way of thinking has been changed, so have the evolutionary pressures been changed (both due to sexual selection and because the unleashed potential of being clever now results in a much greater survival advantage). The mere contact with the Black Monolith changes who the winners and losers are. That's biological evolution.

It remains a just so story, though. Nothing to see here (sorry, Zeuzzz).


* Note that the whole nonsense about enhanced visual acuity (which I don't necessarily believe) resulting in a survival advantage does nothing to biological evolution. Biological evolution has two legs: differential survival and reproduction and heritability. If you have one without the other you do not have biological evolution. If taking mushrooms allowed you to evade predators better or to have better hunting success it would still not affect evolution unless it were the case that taking psychedelic mushrooms had a reasonably strong genetic component (which is not impossible, but I doubt it). Presumably it might set the stage to some later, mushroom catalyzed cultural evolution. It would be this cultural evolution which would be of evolutionary significance.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:48 AM   #185
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Well, the OP states that primitive man may have taken shrooms BEFORE they went hunting to improve visual acuity, I'm assuming he would then suggest that those who used, would have been better hunters, and thus more "fit" to reproduce. Thus creating more offspring who would be brought up in the culture of "psychedelic hunting".

Anyone who has taken psychedelic mushrooms and can tell you that their spatial sense was improved is either selling something or has taken too many to the point of delusion.

Hunting on shrooms would make you alarmed at the slightest twig movement, twitchy, probably noisy and easily confused. Plus, when you are seeing tracers ff of every moving object, I doubt if your aim is going to be worth a darn either.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:56 AM   #186
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In the 60's, the hippy chicks went for the psychedelic guys. As most of you probably know, those hippy chicks were the best of babes; the finest examples of human evolution to be found.

Yet, they took birth control pills, and contributed very little to our present degraded human.

Hippies suck.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 12:19 PM   #187
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Don't these hallucinogens cause issues in fetal development?
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Old 3rd December 2012, 12:37 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
Well, the OP states that primitive man may have taken shrooms BEFORE they went hunting to improve visual acuity, I'm assuming he would then suggest that those who used, would have been better hunters, and thus more "fit" to reproduce. Thus creating more offspring who would be brought up in the culture of "psychedelic hunting".

Anyone who has taken psychedelic mushrooms and can tell you that their spatial sense was improved is either selling something or has taken too many to the point of delusion.

Hunting on shrooms would make you alarmed at the slightest twig movement, twitchy, probably noisy and easily confused. Plus, when you are seeing tracers ff of every moving object, I doubt if your aim is going to be worth a darn either.
Hunting while tripping! It's not going to happen.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 12:38 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Maus View Post
Don't these hallucinogens cause issues in fetal development?
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_health4.shtml

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...-birth-defects
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Old 3rd December 2012, 12:45 PM   #190
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I can't imagine hunting while tripping, but I can imagine pondering new approaches to it whilst in an altered state, especially if I was hungry, and other guys were doing the killing.

I might be mistaken, but many H/G tribes made room for a shaman, or medicine man, who was mostly exempt from warfare and hunting expeditions. Some American Indian cultures embraced a special role for the gay guy in the group...one that served a significant function in the overall survival of the group.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 12:52 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Maus View Post
Don't these hallucinogens cause issues in fetal development?
Did you read this, or something?

It wouldn't be surprising if chemicals which affect neurotransmitter signaling affected development of a brain which is almost certainly affected by neurotransmitter signaling. What the implications of this, if any, would be to evolution I do not know. I do know they are not going to directly change genetics.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 01:22 PM   #192
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If ancient men had done a lot of hunting whilst tripping then we would not be here now.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 01:27 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by quarky View Post
I can't imagine hunting while tripping, but I can imagine pondering new approaches to it whilst in an altered state, especially if I was hungry, and other guys were doing the killing.

I might be mistaken, but many H/G tribes made room for a shaman, or medicine man, who was mostly exempt from warfare and hunting expeditions. Some American Indian cultures embraced a special role for the gay guy in the group...one that served a significant function in the overall survival of the group.
Man, gay guys get all the chicks!
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Old 3rd December 2012, 01:34 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
^
I'll never look at a giraffe again without remembering that post.



Interesting.
Could any of these candidates have been found in African grasslands 190,000 BCE?
Originally Posted by Libra View Post
Did you include Psilocybe cubensis transkei and Psilocybe Natalensis in your consideration ?

I have seen Natalensis in 600mm rainfall /year grassland areas.

I have seen transkei grow on cowdung in <500mm/year rainfall areas.


Both of these species appear to be limited to South Africa.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 01:47 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by quarky View Post
Absolutely. Genghis Khan's descendents weren't exactly conceived in love.
In the U.S., the fantasy is that black slaves raped white women. The opposite is mostly true. Slave masters raped their female slaves. It wasn't even a crime.

This is where we get most of the light-skinned Afro-Americans.
Our president is the exception to the rule.
This area of genetics is still mostly taboo.
Um, the scales you are discussing are hardly evolutionary.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 03:02 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
And the paleolithic cave art?
I should have seen that earlier & replied. There are no pictures of cave art in the images which Zeuzzz hotlinked to. There are, however, two drawings from photographs of cave art. They are from some caves in Algeria and, for our purposes, they are not that old. I've known about them for a bit (I've had a couple of T-shirts with the bee masked shaman for years which I made myself*). I'd be curious to see the actual source photographs.






* Later, I found that Paul Stamets sells pretty much the same thing I made:


So much for originality (but what can you expect when you are shamelessly lifting something from 10000 years ago?). However, mine has a caption describing it as a drawing of a photo of a Tassili cave painting and gives proper credit to the artist, Terence McKenna's wife.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 03:16 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Um, the scales you are discussing are hardly evolutionary.
Not sure about that.
In warfare; even the most primitive sort, rape was encouraged as a way to demoralize the enemy, as well as mess up its genetic 'purity'.
It is still quite common.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 04:58 PM   #198
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Zeuzzz, your photos are why I scoffed at your use of cave art as proof of your idea. First, it's NOT proof--at best it merely shows that they were familiar with the stuff. Second, it's subject to interpretation. In order to get magic mushrooms out of any of that you need to focus on a few parts and ignore others. They are obviously highly stylized, and the culture's dead so we can't ask the reason behind those stylistic choices. ANY interpretation can be supported by those bits of artwork, so they're not evidence of anything. It's certainly not objective proof that anyone ate anything to alter their senses at any time (I'm not doubting that people did, I'm just saying that what you've presented in no way constitutes proof of it).

Originally Posted by quarky
Not sure about that.
In warfare; even the most primitive sort, rape was encouraged as a way to demoralize the enemy, as well as mess up its genetic 'purity'.
It is still quite common.
That has nothing to do with biological evolution. It may have social impacts, but biologically it's probably meaningless (inter-racial procreation was almost certainly already going on in neighboring groups, and even low-levels of interbreeding can have large impacts over time, certainly large enough to wash out one-time occurrences like rape).
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Old 3rd December 2012, 05:20 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
everytime I see your posts, I think "I wonder if he ever invented a perpetual student machine" lol (though perpetual student machine would be a decent band name)
It's called "Postgraduate Studies".
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Old 3rd December 2012, 05:32 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Zeuzzz View Post
(a bunch of stuff)
Not going through all of it, but after skimming, there is a lot of stuff that is out of date, or misconceptions perpetuated as fact.

One specific example:
Quote:
Over the years there has been a lot of speculation among scholars concerning the true identity of the mystery plant in the Rig Veda called Soma, the only plant known to have been deified in the history of human culture, (Furst, 1972:201). While the hymns about Soma have come down to us through time, the botanical identity of Soma remains a mystery. Theories abound as to Soma's forgotten identity, yet among Vedic and Hindu scholars Soma is believed to be a species of Ephedra.
It's not a mystery, it's Ephedra sinica, sometimes combined with opium and/or cannabis; which was commonly used as a stimulant by many cultures.

And as for the "mushroom" art, how do you know those are actually depictions of mushrooms, and not, say, Shivalinga?
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