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Old 11th December 2012, 12:50 PM   #121
gumboot
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Really? Strange that I can't find the Greater German Reich on the map. Or the Italian Social Republic. Or the Empire of Japan. Even the French State seems to have dissolved somehow.
The countries still exist. And you do realise Japan is still ruled by an Emperor, right?
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Old 11th December 2012, 12:59 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
The argument is simply that culture is, to a large degree, a response to circumstances: that modern democracy evolved not as a continuation of the ancient greek tradition, but rather as a response to the world as it was at the time that it developed

The fact that the individuals involved referenced old ideas and were even influenced by them doesn't suggest that those ideas were themselves instrumental in that development

Your problem here is two-fold:

1) I said that preservation of the Ancient Greek culture eventually resulted in the development of Western Civilisation. Democracy constitutes only one element of our culture, so this fixation on democracy is unwarranted.

2) To argue that Democracy spontaneously and independently re-emerged is to totally ignore the democratic and cultural ideals and values that persisted, and directly resulted in the reestablishment of democracy.
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Old 11th December 2012, 01:06 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by DrDave View Post
Star Wars. Made millions
^WIN
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Old 11th December 2012, 01:09 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Hey perhaps you might want to think about this. Its a hypothetical but....

There are two identical American airliners sitting on the tarmac at a US airport. They are both going to the destination you are travelling to, both departure times are the same, as are the arrival times at your destination i.e. it doesn't matter which one you decide to get on.

You see 5 young Arab men boarding plane "A"

You see 5 young Israeli men boarding plane "B"

I know which one I'll be boarding, do you?

I doubt I'd be able to tell the difference between 5 Israelis and 5 Arabs since they're both Semitic.
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Old 11th December 2012, 03:23 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
Your problem here is two-fold:

1) I said that preservation of the Ancient Greek culture eventually resulted in the development of Western Civilisation. Democracy constitutes only one element of our culture, so this fixation on democracy is unwarranted.
Sorry, that was meant only as one example of the general idea

Quote:
2) To argue that Democracy spontaneously and independently re-emerged is to totally ignore the democratic and cultural ideals and values that persisted, and directly resulted in the reestablishment of democracy.
No, it's simply to suggest that they were not causative in that reestablishment
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Old 11th December 2012, 03:36 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I was simply inferring a conclusion from Corsair's previous post. No civilians, no war. It is not I who am saying this, but Corsair 115: no civilians, no economy, no military, no war.

You could win by killing every civilian that supports the war effort. But that is of course is not desirable from a political perspective, nor is it possible to achieve in any practical sense. So instead the goal is to destroy the economic underpinnings which support the war effort.

That takes on one of two paths: direct and indirect. The direct method is to attack those targets which contribute directly to the war effort: armaments factories, oil refineries, chemical manufacturing, railways and other transportation infrastructure, and other critical components. The indirect way is to attack the wider urban area causing generalized dislocation and disruption rather than any damage to specific installations. The former method is best done in daylight, the latter at night. Which is pretty much how the American and British bombing efforts unfolded (with some degree of overlap).

The point is that the targets selected—for either the direct or indirect approach—are civilian operated and/or occupied. The only way civilians could not have been affected by strategic bombing would have been to not do any at all. Which would have limited the air forces to tactical roles only—and the enemy's production would have continued on unhindered. An industrialized nation-state has a prodigious production capacity if left unchecked...
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Old 11th December 2012, 04:20 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Hey perhaps you might want to think about this. Its a hypothetical but....

There are two identical American airliners sitting on the tarmac at a US airport. They are both going to the destination you are travelling to, both departure times are the same, as are the arrival times at your destination i.e. it doesn't matter which one you decide to get on.

You see 5 young Arab men boarding plane "A"

You see 5 young Israeli men boarding plane "B"

I know which one I'll be boarding, do you?
So there are no such things as Israeli Arabs? Dear me!
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Old 11th December 2012, 04:23 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
The point is that the targets selected—for either the direct or indirect approach—are civilian operated and/or occupied. The only way civilians could not have been affected by strategic bombing would have been to not do any at all. Which would have limited the air forces to tactical roles only—and the enemy's production would have continued on unhindered. An industrialized nation-state has a prodigious production capacity if left unchecked...
But couldn't we have just sent the Police to arrest Hitler? Why did all the other people have to die? It just makes the US and UK look so bloodthirsty. Why don't soldiers understand that the most important high ground is the moral high ground?
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Old 11th December 2012, 06:27 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
I doubt I'd be able to tell the difference between 5 Israelis and 5 Arabs since they're both Semitic.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
So there are no such things as Israeli Arabs? Dear me!

FFS its just a hypothetical. Why try pulling technicalities when you must surely understand what I am getting at.

But if you insist....

the five young Arab men boarding plane "A" are Muslim. You know this because you recognise them from when you were doing some contract work at the local mosque last week...

the five young Israeli men boarding plane "B" are Jewish. You know this because you recognise them from when you were doing some contract work at the local synagogue last week...

Put it another way, when was the last time a bunch of Israeli Jews hijacked an American airliner and flew it into a building.

Answer

Never.
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Last edited by smartcooky; 11th December 2012 at 07:00 PM.
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Old 11th December 2012, 06:58 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
FFS its just a hypothetical. Why try pulling technicalities when you must surely understand what I am getting at.

But if you insist....

the five young Arab men boarding plane "A" are Muslim. You know this because you recognise them from when you were doing some contract work at the local mosque last week...

the five young Israeli men boarding plane "B" are Jewish. You know this because you recognise them from when you were doing some contract work at the local synagogue last week...

Put it another way, when was the last time a bunch of Israeli Jews hijacked an American airliner and fews it into a building.

Answer

Never.
So you'd never get on a plane with any of the billion muslims in the world because 19 of them hijacked a few planes and flew them into buildings once?

Personally I think those odds of not getting blown up are pretty damn good myself.
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Old 11th December 2012, 08:32 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I think the war that most cemented the character and nature of the human world would have to be the (theorized) hunting to extinction of neanderthals by cro-magnons. Our visceral hatred of the natural world, of anything that reminds us of our animal roots, our fear of strangers, and our insanely racist idea of manifest destiny all spring from our victory over neanderthals.
What would a world without "manifest destiny" look like? What would we not be doing?
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Old 11th December 2012, 10:12 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
FFS its just a hypothetical. Why try pulling technicalities when you must surely understand what I am getting at.


We understand exactly what you're getting at. It's racist, and bigoted, and stupid. Why on earth would I assume all Muslim Arabs are terrorist hijackers just because a bunch of Muslim Arabs were terrorist hijackers in a single incident ten years ago?

Let's play your game though, shall we?

If you saw five Cubans boarding an American airliner, and five Muslim Arabs boarding another airliner, which would you pick?
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Old 11th December 2012, 11:01 PM   #133
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smartcooky, you give me the impression that you don't fly very often, to conjure up such a bizarre "thought" experiment.

I would be entirely indifferent to which flight I get on.
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Old 12th December 2012, 01:21 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
FFS its just a hypothetical. Why try pulling technicalities when you must surely understand what I am getting at.

But if you insist....

the five young Arab men boarding plane "A" are Muslim. You know this because you recognise them from when you were doing some contract work at the local mosque last week...

the five young Israeli men boarding plane "B" are Jewish. You know this because you recognise them from when you were doing some contract work at the local synagogue last week...

Put it another way, when was the last time a bunch of Israeli Jews hijacked an American airliner and flew it into a building.

Answer

Never.
I don't now why everyone has gotten this answer wrong. You go with the airline with the flight attendants with the biggest tits. Jeez - you people must never travel.

(That's in lieu of a serious response which the question does not merit. It assumes that it's a miracle that I've lived this long because there's been at least one Muslim on every flight I've been on in the last three decades. I can gather that by the sheer number of believers in Islam in the world and the destinations and airlines I fly on.)

Back on topic:

As others have mentioned, it depends on your view of what a "successful" war would entail.

If the object is killing the other guy and laying waste to his homeland, I'd have to argue the U.S. Civil War. If it's killing off or subjugating the other guy and taking over his land/country, then it's pretty hard to argue with the wars the Khan boys.

Except that the European conquest of the Americas, as mentioned above, would likely surpass the Mongolian hegemony in terms of scope and importance, as those cultures have been completely subdued, killed off, or replaced. In short, the Mongolian conquests were rolled back. The Spanish? Not so much. Spain got thrown out, but the culture and peoples they left behind are the same, only with different flags they salute.

But I'm sure there have been some classic tribal and cultural conflicts that literally wiped out the other country and/or people. Southeast Asia had quite a few of their ancient kingdoms and sub-cultures just rolled up by the winning sides, as did a number of tribal groups in Africa and South America.
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Old 12th December 2012, 02:41 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
We understand exactly what you're getting at. It's racist, and bigoted, and stupid.
Its not racist, and bigoted, and stupid; its the REALITY of a post-911 world.

Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
Why on earth would I assume all Muslim Arabs are terrorist hijackers just because a bunch of Muslim Arabs were terrorist hijackers in a single incident ten years ago?
I'm not asking you TO assume anything; I'm asking YOU what you assume.

And do you really think that 911 was a a one-off, "single" incident. Are you that naive?

Well, for the furtherance of your education, here are a few "highlights" of the last 40 or so years. This lot is just the tip of the iceberg....

1968
June 5 - U.S. presidential candidate Robert Kennedy murdered by Palestinian Sirhan Sirhan, in Los Angeles, which causes further terrorist attacks, as Arab terrorist groups demanded his release.

1970
Sept. 6 - “Skyjack Sunday” in Jordan. 3 planes (TWA, Swissair, Pan Am) en route to the U.S. hijacked, 400+ hostages, planes blown up in Jordan, Governments agreed to PFLP’s demands, released terrorists from jails and hostages released.

1972
Sept. 5 - Munich Olympic Games massacre. Palestinian terrorists seize eleven athletes in the Olympic Village in Munich. One American, nine hostages and five terrorists killed,

1974
Sept. 8 - TWA Flight 841 exploded from bomb in cargo hold, all 88 passengers killed. Arab terrorists claimed responsibility.

1976
June 27 - Air France airliner hijacked, forced to fly to Uganda. 258 passengers and crew held hostage. Three passengers killed. July 4th, Israeli commandos rescue the remaining hostages. (this was made into a movie - "Victory at Entebbe"

1979
Nov. 4 - Arab Terrorists seize the U.S. Embassy in Tehran and take 66 American diplomats hostage. 13 freed, but the remaining 53 held until their release on January 20, 1981 - 444 days - at the inauguration of President Ronald Reagan.

1981
May 13 - Pope John Paul II seriously wounded in assassination attempt in Rome, Italy, by terrorist Mehmet Ali Agca.

Oct. 6 - Egyptian President Anwar Sadat machine gunned to death by Islamic Jihad in Cairo for working for peace. 7 others killed, 28 wounded. The assassins are later executed.

1983
April 18 - CIA’s Middle East Director, and 83 others are killed, 120 injured in truck bomb on the US Embassy in Lebanon.

Sept. 29 - Gulf Air Flight 771 is bombed by Arab terrorists killing all 166 aboard.

Oct. 23 - Simultaneous suicide truck bombs in Lebanon: 1st crashed into lobby of US Marine Corps Headquarters, 241 Marines dead, 82 seriously injured - and 2nd was French compounds killing 58 paratroopers.

Dec. 12 - US Embassy in Kuwait targeted to destroy the building with a truck bomb, attack foiled by guards and the device killed 5 people and injured 80.

1984
Mar. 9 - Car bomb kills 80 (22 Americans) and wounds more than 200 civilians when it drove past the checkpoint at the U.S. Embassy in Awkar.

Apr. 12 - Hizballah bombed restaurant adjacent to US Air Force base in Torregon Spain, 18 servicemen killed and 83 Americans wounded.

Sept. 20- US embassy in the Beirut is bombed - 2 servicemen and 23 employees are killed, 21 Americans injured including the U.S. and British Ambassadors. 50+ Lebanese were injured.

Oct. 7 - Islamic Terrorists seize the Italian cruise liner, Achille Lauro, during a cruise in the Mediterranean, taking more than 700 people hostage for 3 days. A wheelchairs-bound American, Leon Klinghoffer, was murdered in front of other hostages by throwing him in the ocean.

1988
Dec. 21 - Pan Am Flight 103 - Boeing 747 from London to New York, blown up over Lockerbie, Scotland, by a bomb planets by Islamic terrorists. All 259 passengers and 11 on the ground were killed.

1993
Feb. 26 - World Trade Center in New York badly damaged by a massive bomb by Islamic terrorists. The van bomb was planted in an underground garage and left 6 people dead and 1042 injured and almost $US 1 billion in damage.

1996
April 19 - Eighteen Greek tourists were gunned down near the historic Pyramids in Egypt by Islamic terrorists aiming to destroy the country’s tourist industry.

June 25 - Islamic terrorists attack tourists in Luxor, Egypt, killing 71 people, most of them vacationers. Same aim as April 19 attacks above.

1997
Jan. 2 - Major cities worldwide and U.S. get letter bombs with Egyptian postmarks at newspaper bureaus in DC, New York, London, Riyadh, S.A., and Leavenworth, KN. Experts defused all but the 1 in London, injuring 2.

Jan. 7 to 21st - Islamic terrorist rampage during these 14 days with car bombs and beheadings in Algiers, total of 238 dead, 139 wounded.

April - Terrorists behead innocent civilians this whole month with a total of 272 murdered and over 100 injured. Knives, axes and chainsaws were used and many of the bodies were burned while still alive.

Sept. 18- 9 German tourists killed when Muslims fire bombed bus in Cairo, Egypt. Same aim as above to try to destroy Egyptian tourism

Nov. 17 - 58 western tourists killed and 30 injured in gun attack at historic monuments in southern Egypt. 6 of the Islamic terrorists are killed in shoot out with police. Same aim as above to try to destroy Egyptian tourism.

1998
Aug. 7 - Simultaneous bombs in US Embassies in Kenya, and Tanzania, heavily damaged by massive attacks. In the Nairobi attack 292 people were killed, including 12 Americans, and 5,000 injured. 10 people were killed and 86 injured in Tanzania incident for a total of 302 dead, 5086 injured within an hour.

2000
Oct. 12 - A suicide boat exploded next to the U.S.S. Cole (guided-missile destroyer), blowing a hole 40 feet in diameter, killing 17 American sailors and injuring 39.

2001
Sep 11 - enough said

2006
A group of young Pakisatini Islamic men from east London plot to blow up at least 10 US transatlantic airliners leaving Heathrow in 2006, using explosives disguised as soft drinks. The plot was foiled by the British Police, and others.


Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
Let's play your game though, shall we?

If you saw five Cubans boarding an American airliner, and five Muslim Arabs boarding another airliner, which would you pick?
Either one. It doesn't make much odds really!
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Old 12th December 2012, 07:45 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
FFS its just a hypothetical. Why try pulling technicalities when you must surely understand what I am getting at.

But if you insist....

the five young Arab men boarding plane "A" are Muslim. You know this because you recognise them from when you were doing some contract work at the local mosque last week...

the five young Israeli men boarding plane "B" are Jewish. You know this because you recognise them from when you were doing some contract work at the local synagogue last week...

Put it another way, when was the last time a bunch of Israeli Jews hijacked an American airliner and flew it into a building.

Answer

Never.
NOt yet, anyway, so of course in the real world, if the five Arabs are allowed on a plane, it's pretty likely they will have been vetted up and down and sideways by the authorities, while the Israelis have been waved through, just as you would do. Since I would rather fly with the best-checked arabs in the world than with unknown Israelis who might be the kind of fanatics who killed Yitzak Rabin, the choice is clear. Besides, if everyone else thinks like you, I'll get a better seat.
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Old 12th December 2012, 07:59 AM   #137
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Anyone fancy listing IRA (hell, let's throw in Loyalist ones) attacks?
Yep, never get on a plane with an Irishman...or a train, or an automobile...
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Old 12th December 2012, 08:53 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Anyone fancy listing IRA (hell, let's throw in Loyalist ones) attacks?
Yep, never get on a plane with an Irishman...or a train, or an automobile...
Also, avoid black Fedex workers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705
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Old 12th December 2012, 11:50 AM   #139
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Perhaps I am old enough to hold a more cynical view of the situation in the Middle East. Having been deployed there during my 20 years in the military has allowed me to see first hand some of the bloody horrible, murderous and disgusting things that these Islamic fanatics do to each other and to others, things that your average American sitting at home in the comfort of his lounge watching CNN's "sanitised" version of what goes on there, has absolutely no idea about.

Encountering an enemy who wants to kill you, and your family and everyone like you because, despite the fact that you both believe in the same God, you don't worship Him in precisely the same way that he does, is a very unpleasant experience. Being shot at is not funny.

In the Jewish v Muslim conflict, I unashamedly take the side of the Jews. They have been the victims of oppression and genocide at the hands of others for over 2000 years. I never used to take this view before I deployed there, but I do now. Anyone who really wants to be educated about this ought to read the following books...

Jesus and Israel by Jules Isaac
Jesus: The Cold Case by Bryan Bruce (there is also a TV documentary made by NZ's TV One)

(NOTE: These are NOT religious books)

The Jews just want to be left in peace to live in an area of their homeland. Is it really that much to ask?
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Old 12th December 2012, 02:17 PM   #140
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@smartcooky:

I side with the Israelis almost every time, I'm just not willing to say that anything they do is beyond reproach.

As far as the list of terrorist incidents you described, it does not get you any closer to a good answer on risk management when dealing with a randomly selected Arabic (or Muslim, for that matter). You are making a fundamental error in conditional probability.

Given someone you already know is a terrorist, the chances are currently quite high that they are a Muslim extremist.

However, compare the probability that randomly selected Muslim A and randomly selected non-Muslim B are terrorists, then the difference is so small as to be a waste of time worrying about. There are far more likely risks worth your concern.
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Old 12th December 2012, 03:39 PM   #141
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I don't dispute what smartcooky says, but I missed the connection to the subject of successful wars.

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm View Post
That would be considered extremely successful, had the Allies started it.
The fact that one side in a war didn't start it doesn't mean they can't succeed in it.

However, I'm sticking with my original answer because we'll have to wait a couple dozen centuries to compare WWII's results with Qin's.
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Old 12th December 2012, 08:19 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its not racist, and bigoted, and stupid; its the REALITY of a post-911 world.
No it isn't.



Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I'm not asking you TO assume anything; I'm asking YOU what you assume.
The question was framed in such a way that it suggested there was only one obvious answer.



Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And do you really think that 911 was a a one-off, "single" incident. Are you that naive?
Well yes, it's the only time Radical Islamic terrorists have hijacked a US-originated airliner that I'm aware of so, yes it is a one-off incident.



Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well, for the furtherance of your education, here are a few "highlights" of the last 40 or so years. This lot is just the tip of the iceberg....
I am quite familiar with Radical Islamic terror. I don't need any "educating" from you, particularly as your "list" shows a woeful grasp of the facts. Most of your listed attacks weren't even carried out by Islamic Arab terrorists.
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Old 12th December 2012, 08:37 PM   #143
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Surely a "successful" war (if indeed there is such a thing) has to be one in which one side trounces the other so thoroughly that there can be no question of its success. What is success for one side, usually translates to failure for the other. On this count, the "Paraguayan War" (a.k.a. "The War of the Triple Alliance" (1864 - 1870) has to count as one of the best examples.

At is end,it is estimated that between two-thirds and three-quarters of the population were killed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Triple_Alliance

Its a longish article. As I read elsewhere on the net, give yourself plenty of time read this because there will be a number of WTF moments as you wonder what the hell the Paraguayan Government and military were thinking.
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Old 12th December 2012, 08:40 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
No it isn't.
In MY opinion it is.

Quote:
The question was framed in such a way that it suggested there was only one obvious answer.
Really? Obvious to you perhaps, but others chose a different answer. Funny that!!

Quote:
Well yes, it's the only time Radical Islamic terrorists have hijacked a US-originated airliner that I'm aware of so, yes it is a one-off incident.
I spy a straw-man argument

I am quite familiar with Radical Islamic terror. I don't need any "educating" from you, particularly as your "list" shows a woeful grasp of the facts. Most of your listed attacks weren't even carried out by Islamic Arab terrorists.[/quote]

Which ones, and who were they if they weren't Islamic terrorists. Lets see what YOUR grasp is on "the facts"
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Old 12th December 2012, 08:47 PM   #145
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"In the Jewish v Muslim conflict, I unashamedly take the side of the Jews. They have been the victims of oppression and genocide at the hands of others for over 2000 years. I never used to take this view before I deployed there, but I do now. Anyone who really wants to be educated about this ought to read the following books..."

Bull. So educate me.

No one has been more of a champion of Israel than the US. I respect Israels right to exist. But America won't be able to afford it much longer. At what point do they take care of themselves? And how many times can we intervene only to have them stick their middle finger in our face? Will it ever end? How?

There has never been any success there at all.
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Old 12th December 2012, 09:19 PM   #146
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Israel was the cause of 9/11. Debate it all you want.

Almost 3,000 Americans died. Lets not even get into how many have died in the wars since. Do they appreciate it? Because Netanyahu doesn't act like it.They need to show some dang respect for our country and how we have made it possible for them to even exist. We will keep supporting them even though they act like naughty children. But will they ever be grateful? I doubt it.

One more thing. They need to show some gad dang respect for our President.
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Old 12th December 2012, 09:46 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its not racist, and bigoted, and stupid; its the REALITY of a post-911 world.



I'm not asking you TO assume anything; I'm asking YOU what you assume.

And do you really think that 911 was a a one-off, "single" incident. Are you that naive?

Well, for the furtherance of your education, here are a few "highlights" of the last 40 or so years. This lot is just the tip of the iceberg....

1968
June 5 - U.S. presidential candidate Robert Kennedy murdered by Palestinian Sirhan Sirhan, in Los Angeles, which causes further terrorist attacks, as Arab terrorist groups demanded his release.

1970
Sept. 6 - “Skyjack Sunday” in Jordan. 3 planes (TWA, Swissair, Pan Am) en route to the U.S. hijacked, 400+ hostages, planes blown up in Jordan, Governments agreed to PFLP’s demands, released terrorists from jails and hostages released.

1972
Sept. 5 - Munich Olympic Games massacre. Palestinian terrorists seize eleven athletes in the Olympic Village in Munich. One American, nine hostages and five terrorists killed,

1974
Sept. 8 - TWA Flight 841 exploded from bomb in cargo hold, all 88 passengers killed. Arab terrorists claimed responsibility.

1976
June 27 - Air France airliner hijacked, forced to fly to Uganda. 258 passengers and crew held hostage. Three passengers killed. July 4th, Israeli commandos rescue the remaining hostages. (this was made into a movie - "Victory at Entebbe"

1979
Nov. 4 - Arab Terrorists seize the U.S. Embassy in Tehran and take 66 American diplomats hostage. 13 freed, but the remaining 53 held until their release on January 20, 1981 - 444 days - at the inauguration of President Ronald Reagan.

1981
May 13 - Pope John Paul II seriously wounded in assassination attempt in Rome, Italy, by terrorist Mehmet Ali Agca.

Oct. 6 - Egyptian President Anwar Sadat machine gunned to death by Islamic Jihad in Cairo for working for peace. 7 others killed, 28 wounded. The assassins are later executed.

1983
April 18 - CIA’s Middle East Director, and 83 others are killed, 120 injured in truck bomb on the US Embassy in Lebanon.

Sept. 29 - Gulf Air Flight 771 is bombed by Arab terrorists killing all 166 aboard.

Oct. 23 - Simultaneous suicide truck bombs in Lebanon: 1st crashed into lobby of US Marine Corps Headquarters, 241 Marines dead, 82 seriously injured - and 2nd was French compounds killing 58 paratroopers.

Dec. 12 - US Embassy in Kuwait targeted to destroy the building with a truck bomb, attack foiled by guards and the device killed 5 people and injured 80.

1984
Mar. 9 - Car bomb kills 80 (22 Americans) and wounds more than 200 civilians when it drove past the checkpoint at the U.S. Embassy in Awkar.

Apr. 12 - Hizballah bombed restaurant adjacent to US Air Force base in Torregon Spain, 18 servicemen killed and 83 Americans wounded.

Sept. 20- US embassy in the Beirut is bombed - 2 servicemen and 23 employees are killed, 21 Americans injured including the U.S. and British Ambassadors. 50+ Lebanese were injured.

Oct. 7 - Islamic Terrorists seize the Italian cruise liner, Achille Lauro, during a cruise in the Mediterranean, taking more than 700 people hostage for 3 days. A wheelchairs-bound American, Leon Klinghoffer, was murdered in front of other hostages by throwing him in the ocean.

1988
Dec. 21 - Pan Am Flight 103 - Boeing 747 from London to New York, blown up over Lockerbie, Scotland, by a bomb planets by Islamic terrorists. All 259 passengers and 11 on the ground were killed.

1993
Feb. 26 - World Trade Center in New York badly damaged by a massive bomb by Islamic terrorists. The van bomb was planted in an underground garage and left 6 people dead and 1042 injured and almost $US 1 billion in damage.

1996
April 19 - Eighteen Greek tourists were gunned down near the historic Pyramids in Egypt by Islamic terrorists aiming to destroy the country’s tourist industry.

June 25 - Islamic terrorists attack tourists in Luxor, Egypt, killing 71 people, most of them vacationers. Same aim as April 19 attacks above.

1997
Jan. 2 - Major cities worldwide and U.S. get letter bombs with Egyptian postmarks at newspaper bureaus in DC, New York, London, Riyadh, S.A., and Leavenworth, KN. Experts defused all but the 1 in London, injuring 2.

Jan. 7 to 21st - Islamic terrorist rampage during these 14 days with car bombs and beheadings in Algiers, total of 238 dead, 139 wounded.

April - Terrorists behead innocent civilians this whole month with a total of 272 murdered and over 100 injured. Knives, axes and chainsaws were used and many of the bodies were burned while still alive.

Sept. 18- 9 German tourists killed when Muslims fire bombed bus in Cairo, Egypt. Same aim as above to try to destroy Egyptian tourism

Nov. 17 - 58 western tourists killed and 30 injured in gun attack at historic monuments in southern Egypt. 6 of the Islamic terrorists are killed in shoot out with police. Same aim as above to try to destroy Egyptian tourism.

1998
Aug. 7 - Simultaneous bombs in US Embassies in Kenya, and Tanzania, heavily damaged by massive attacks. In the Nairobi attack 292 people were killed, including 12 Americans, and 5,000 injured. 10 people were killed and 86 injured in Tanzania incident for a total of 302 dead, 5086 injured within an hour.

2000
Oct. 12 - A suicide boat exploded next to the U.S.S. Cole (guided-missile destroyer), blowing a hole 40 feet in diameter, killing 17 American sailors and injuring 39.

2001
Sep 11 - enough said

2006
A group of young Pakisatini Islamic men from east London plot to blow up at least 10 US transatlantic airliners leaving Heathrow in 2006, using explosives disguised as soft drinks. The plot was foiled by the British Police, and others.




Either one. It doesn't make much odds really!
You do realise that for every one of those we could name ten by Christians, right?
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Old 12th December 2012, 11:22 PM   #148
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I'm sure posters residing in the U.K. could post an extensive list of terrorist acts committed by the IRA. But for some reason those are never given the same weight as terrorist acts committed by Muslim extremists. My cynicism chalks that up to the fact that the targets of IRA terrorist attacks were not Americans while the targets of Muslim extremists often are.
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Old 12th December 2012, 11:25 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
I'm sure posters residing in the U.K. could post an extensive list of terrorist acts committed by the IRA. But for some reason those are never given the same weight as terrorist acts committed by Muslim extremists. My cynicism chalks that up to the fact that the targets of IRA terrorist attacks were not Americans while the targets of Muslim extremists often are.
You call that cynicism? (I'd go more for jingoism, but that's an argument for another thread...)

Cynicism tells me the reason that the issue isn't raised as often is because the Irish aren't that dusky beige color.
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Old 13th December 2012, 01:25 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
You call that cynicism? (I'd go more for jingoism, but that's an argument for another thread...)

Cynicism tells me the reason that the issue isn't raised as often is because the Irish aren't that dusky beige color.
Come on now. Is it really just because they are white? I don't think so. I am Irish Catholic and even I know they have done some terrible things. If you put a bomb in a cafe and kill innocent people you are a sick bastard. End of story. Its all history and complected... whatever.

America was won by going up against a tyrannical Government. Except for maybe the Romans the most powerful nation in the history of the earth was England. We said no. You won't do this to us. Some people would say the most successful war ever. Because we were right. That being said we are still the children of England with or own imperialistic wants. Did we really win? I would say America is more than just a little hypocritical.

I know I'm going to get hammered for this but I think some of the countries in the Middle East are going through this now. They're saying no. We won't put up with this imperialistic crap. They are no more terrorist in my opinion than the American Patriots who won the revolution. We beat the British with gorilla warfare. We invented it. As an American how can I disrespect that?

As far as Ireland goes? I shouldn't say this but I think they they punked out. They like being British. Though I will never understand Protestant Irish. And I'm not even a practicing Catholic any longer. Protestant Irish are just traitorous in my opinion.

I guess its just the American terrorist in me coming out.
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Old 13th December 2012, 02:22 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Profanz View Post
America was won by going up against a tyrannical Government. Except for maybe the Romans the most powerful nation in the history of the earth was England. We said no.

Canada said yes. So perhaps the American revolution wasn't really necessary after all given that Canada stayed loyal to the Crown and had freedom and all that other good stuff.
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Old 13th December 2012, 02:38 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Canada said yes. So perhaps the American revolution wasn't really necessary after all given that Canada stayed loyal to the Crown and had freedom and all that other good stuff.
What is good about it? Stuff? Really?
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Old 13th December 2012, 02:42 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Which ones, and who were they if they weren't Islamic terrorists. Lets see what YOUR grasp is on "the facts"

Well, the first seven, to begin with. The first attack on your list that was actually carried out by an Arab Muslim terrorist organisation was the assassination of Anwar Sadat by Islamic Jihad.
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Old 13th December 2012, 03:51 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Profanz View Post
What is good about it? Stuff? Really?
I think Corsair is saying that all of the freedom and independence the American colonists wanted was ultimately obtained by all other British colonies without having to wage a bloody revolutionary war, thus suggesting that the revolutionary war was unnecessary.

Another thing to consider is that shortly after the revolutionary war the British Empire started to become rather more anti-racism and slavery. Had the US remained in the Empire like the other colonies they most likely would have adopted the rest of the Empire's attitude to slavery and non-white peoples much sooner, and the Civil War and more recently Civil Rights movement might have not been required.
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Old 13th December 2012, 03:52 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Profanz View Post
Except for maybe the Romans the most powerful nation in the history of the earth was England. .
Hmmm, that sounds like a thread worthy claim!


Originally Posted by Profanz View Post
We beat the British with gorilla warfare.
It's "guerrilla" warfare. From the Spanish for "little war" - when the Spanish people rose up against Napoleonic France occupying Spain in 1808 (see: The Peninsular War).

Nothing to do with gorillas (alas).
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Old 13th December 2012, 03:55 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post

Another thing to consider is that shortly after the revolutionary war the British Empire started to become rather more anti-racism and slavery. Had the US remained in the Empire like the other colonies they most likely would have adopted the rest of the Empire's attitude to slavery and non-white peoples much sooner, and the Civil War and more recently Civil Rights movement might have not been required.
Or, Robert E. Lee might have beaten up people in red coats instead of people in blue coats.
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Old 13th December 2012, 04:03 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
Well, the first seven, to begin with. The first attack on your list that was actually carried out by an Arab Muslim terrorist organisation was the assassination of Anwar Sadat by Islamic Jihad.
So you are suggesting that there is a difference between an Arab Muslim terrorist organisation, and an Islamic Arab terrorist organisation?

While that may be so (although I don't beleive it) I'm not convinced that the dead victims appreciate the fine distinction, nor do their families care!!!
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Old 13th December 2012, 04:16 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So you are suggesting that there is a difference between an Arab Muslim terrorist organisation, and an Islamic Arab terrorist organisation?

While that may be so (although I don't beleive it) I'm not convinced that the dead victims appreciate the fine distinction, nor do their families care!!!
That's not a very profound or even useful observation, smartcooky.
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Old 13th December 2012, 07:38 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So you are suggesting that there is a difference between an Arab Muslim terrorist organisation, and an Islamic Arab terrorist organisation?

No I'm not. What on earth gave you that idea?
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Old 13th December 2012, 08:13 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
I think Corsair is saying that all of the freedom and independence the American colonists wanted was ultimately obtained by all other British colonies without having to wage a bloody revolutionary war, thus suggesting that the revolutionary war was unnecessary.

Another thing to consider is that shortly after the revolutionary war the British Empire started to become rather more anti-racism and slavery. Had the US remained in the Empire like the other colonies they most likely would have adopted the rest of the Empire's attitude to slavery and non-white peoples much sooner, and the Civil War and more recently Civil Rights movement might have not been required.
On the other hand, of course, we cannot be sure how the other colonies would have been treated if the UK had not just lost a nasty revolution. Certainly at the time of the Revolution there was no sign that the UK was in any mood to relent. So maybe the reason the Canadians didn't need a revolution was because we had it first. Of course then there's the question of slavery. If, for example, there had been no revolution, what would have prevented the south from seceding and waging a war of its own independence? Could we have counted on as intense an anti-secession effort from a British colony as we did from the Union? Or would we have ended up with something like South Africa? I"m inclined to agree that the revolution was not as successful in the very long run as it seems to have been, but we'll never know for sure.
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