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Tags Connecticut incidents , gun issues , Sandy Hook , school incidents , school shootings , shooting incidents

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Old 14th December 2012, 11:17 AM   #41
JoeTheJuggler
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
Out of two service pistols??

Let's not join the speculation, guys.
I wasn't speculating. I was repeating a witness quote from a reputable news outlet.

At the press conference, the police said there are about 20 dead including at least 10 children.

Something like 100 rounds sounds like an accurate estimate.

ETA: R.Mackey, why would you take early reports of the number and type of weapons used as reliable but any other information so reported as "speculation"?
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:18 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Guns don't kill people; people kill people. This guy could've stacked a higher body count by setting the building on fire, so are we gonna outlaw matches and gasoline? What next, we gonna outlaw grenades?? Don't be ridiculous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Unfortunately, crazy people find ways.

My prayers for them.

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Old 14th December 2012, 11:19 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
Terrible news. I cannot fathom what could make a person take a gun into a school full of young children.
Sure fire way of getting some attention / infamy is all I can think of? I can't really blame the media but it would be nice if they didn't report these events in such a dramatic fashion.
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:21 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
I wasn't speculating. I was repeating a witness quote from a reputable news outlet.

At the press conference, the police said there are about 20 dead including at least 10 children.

Something like 100 rounds sounds like an accurate estimate.

ETA: R.Mackey, why would you take early reports of the number and type of weapons used as reliable but any other information so reported as "speculation"?
Because reporting early and confused reports doesn't help. There's no reason why we can't wait a little bit.

Other "witness quotes" have mentioned two shooters and fully automatic weapons. Neither of those, I trust you'll allow, are likely to be found true when this is sorted out.

Again, our thoughts should be with the victims. Just calm it down.
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:21 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You know, I'd have thought that by now people on this forum were accustomed enough to your style of black irony to understand this post, but apparently not.

Rolfe.
I didn't read it all the way through... my bad.



Sorry Cain
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:22 AM   #46
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BBC reporting 18 children dead.

*sigh*
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:24 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by DDWW View Post
Pure evil. And I bet there were laws against bombs, just as I'm sure this school was a gun-free zone. See, when you "outlaw guns, only outlaws will..." As a wise man on this forum once wrote in a comparable incident: "This senseless tragedy could have been averted if the government didn't make illegal for children to have guns."

Last edited by Cain; 14th December 2012 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:24 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Delscottio View Post
Sure fire way of getting some attention / infamy is all I can think of? I can't really blame the media but it would be nice if they didn't report these events in such a dramatic fashion.
Its become "the thing you do" when you are angry/alienated etc etc and want attention. The best thing we can do is switch off our TVs and pay it as little attention as possible. If we don't we are just as responsible as "the media" for the next one.
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:25 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
There are fire alarms and escape routes with plans, don't make a ridiculous comparison and then draw a conclusion from it as if it were legit.
I took Cain's post as tongue in cheek. (Or is there a 2nd Amendment individual right for anyone to keep and carry hand grenades?*)

If not, he's only arguing against a strawman position, soundly defeating the position that all guns should be banned.


*Substitute for "hand grenades" chemical, biological or nuclear arms. A point I like to make is that nowhere does the 2nd Amendment mention "guns" or "firearms". Since everyone, I think, admits that there is not an unlimited right of individuals to own chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, I think everyone recognizes that whatever the individual right the 2nd Amendment creates, it may be weighed against legitimate state interests such as public safety.
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:25 AM   #50
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I'll gladly argue about gun control in a civil manner on another day, but right now I'm too overwhelmed with horror at the situation.
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:29 AM   #51
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I am pro-gun as well. However, actions such as this...where a man walks into a KIDS school and starts firing away...it isn't about the guns.

This guy wanted to go out in a demon-blaze and you'd be hard pressed to make me believe he wouldn't have found another weapon(s) to make sure it happened.
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:33 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
Because reporting early and confused reports doesn't help. There's no reason why we can't wait a little bit.

Other "witness quotes" have mentioned two shooters and fully automatic weapons. Neither of those, I trust you'll allow, are likely to be found true when this is sorted out.
None of the statements I made (in question) were "speculation". And in fact, as I've shown, the witness statement I repeated is reasonable in the light of the statement from law enforcement.

But again, how is it that you found early reports of the two guns in use to be reliable but other reports to be mere "speculation"?

[ETA: FWIW, the sources I was following as the story broke did not include any statement about there being two shooters using fully automatic weapons. I'm not sure where you heard that.]


Quote:
Again, our thoughts should be with the victims. Just calm it down.
I have room in my mind to process thoughts in addition to feeling sympathy for the victims.

And I am calm, thank you.
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:34 AM   #53
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double postage

Last edited by malicus; 14th December 2012 at 11:42 AM. Reason: posting snafu
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:39 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
None of the statements I made were "speculation". And in fact, as I've shown, the witness statement I repeated is reasonable in the light of the statement from law enforcement.

But again, how is it that you found early reports of the two guns in use to be reliable but other reports to be mere "speculation"?

[ETA: FWIW, the sources I was following as the story broke did not include any statement about there being two shooters using fully automatic weapons. I'm not sure where you heard that.]




I have room in my mind to process thoughts in addition to feeling sympathy for the victims.

And I am calm, thank you.
Expecting a witness involved to reliably count shots to over 100 is unrealistic. Reminds me of certain folks who think a 757 didn't hit the Pentagon on 9/11 because of where some people on the ground thought it flew.

I've heard all kinds of wild speculation. So it goes in the Twitter era. Don't fall for it. We will get our answers.
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:42 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by malicus View Post
double postage
Simply awful.
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:42 AM   #56
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Back in July everyone was horrified with the shooting in that cinema. In 6 months or sometime next year there will be another one. This is simply the price Americans are more than willing to pay to uphold their constitutional rights.
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:42 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
This guy wanted to go out in a demon-blaze and you'd be hard pressed to make me believe he wouldn't have found another weapon(s) to make sure it happened.
And it's critical that he would have killed just as many people. He could've used anything -- a hunting knife, scissors, plastic bags...
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:43 AM   #58
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Guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people.
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:45 AM   #59
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It's all over the Beeb in realtime. Word fail me, although "sick" keeps coming to mind.
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:46 AM   #60
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stunned

I don't think I'll post in this thread or read the story or pursue thinking about it anymore because I just read the first paragraph of the story and it turned my stomach. This was horrific.
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:49 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by malicus View Post
BBC reporting 18 children dead.

*sigh*
Yep...
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:52 AM   #62
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I'm the father of a five year old in kindergarten and I'm in tears at the moment. Unimaginable.
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:52 AM   #63
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Unfathomable. Are people born with that kind of evil, or is it something they learned through their upbringing? I have an elementary school aged child, and I can't even imagine...
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:55 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
I believe it can.

However, when threads on the topic begin with speculation about the other side, strawmanning, and well-poisoning, the odds decrease precipitously.

Our thoughts at the moment should be with the victims. It's an old discussion, it can wait for a few hours at least.
Well that was actually what I was hoping to ironically highlight at the time. Now I think that is overshadowed by events. See below.

Originally Posted by ravdin View Post
I'll gladly argue about gun control in a civil manner on another day, but right now I'm too overwhelmed with horror at the situation.
When I started this thread they were reporting that only the shooter was dead, likely at the hands of police. My biggest indignation at the time was really the statement that elementary schools don't have bullying.

I go, rake leaves out of the gutter then come back to watch what is up and see maybe twenty kids are dead. And this is a K-4 school.

Now I'm ashamed at starting this all off the way I did.

Granted we will have to deal with the social situation questions one day. We need to be able to have an adult sit down and talk about where we really want our society to lead. Do we really want to keep tolerating these tragedies in order to protect what might be an outmoded concept of individual rights? Can we consider massacres like this a tragedy of the commons only properly addressed by giving up some of those rights?

One day we will have to really and earnestly tackle those questions. We can't avoid them forever. For the moment we have innocent lives to mourn and children to bury.
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:57 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
And it's critical that he would have killed just as many people. He could've used anything -- a hunting knife, scissors, plastic bags...
Deadpan humor aside, this exactly.

There is a reason why guns are used over any other instrument. The sooner we drop this "Well they could have used ANYTHING" argument, the sooner we can have an actual discussion.
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:59 AM   #66
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[quote=travis;8844599




granted we will have to deal with the social situation questions one day. We need to be able to have an adult sit down and talk about where we really want our society to lead. Do we really want to keep tolerating these tragedies in order to protect what might be an outmoded concept of individual rights? Can we consider massacres like this a tragedy of the commons only properly addressed by giving up some of those rights?

One day we will have to really and earnestly tackle those questions. We can't avoid them forever. For the moment we have innocent lives to mourn and children to bury.[/quote]

this
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Old 14th December 2012, 11:59 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by ToddH View Post
I'm the father of a five year old in kindergarten and I'm in tears at the moment. Unimaginable.
Ditto. I'm about to leave work early just to go pick up my boys from school and give them each an hour long hug.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:01 PM   #68
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Meanwhile, in other news today: http://www.voanews.com/content/man-s...l/1564820.html
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:01 PM   #69
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We don't have the right in the UK to carry a gun

You can get a gun if you have a legitimate use for it, hunting, or farming

We don't miss it because we've not had that right for generations.

You'll get used to it, and it will be better
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:01 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Granted we will have to deal with the social situation questions one day. We need to be able to have an adult sit down and talk about where we really want our society to lead. Do we really want to keep tolerating these tragedies in order to protect what might be an outmoded concept of individual rights? Can we consider massacres like this a tragedy of the commons only properly addressed by giving up some of those rights?

One day we will have to really and earnestly tackle those questions. We can't avoid them forever. For the moment we have innocent lives to mourn and children to bury.
Well put, Travis. Thanks.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:04 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Yeah.
We don't have to invoke anything other than math here.

There are over 300 million of us in the US. We are the third most populous nation on the planet. If just one in ten million is crazy enough and evil enough to do this stuff, that's still 30 incidents.

Now serving number 10.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:05 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
And this is relevant how?

Quote:
Chinese state media say a man stabbed 22 children and an adult at an elementary school in central China on Friday.

The official Xinhua news agency says the knife-wielding man attacked the children outside a school in Chenpeng village in Henan province. It said the children, whose ages are not known, suffered non-life-threatening injuries.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:05 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
STOP confusing the issue. FACT is he could've killed just as many people with darts or ninja stars!

I call Bull!!

One man standing 60 feet from a group of 10 people can shoot and kill all of them with a fully loaded M16 or L1A1 before they have any chance of escape. That cannot be done with a knife.

I have no objection to people owning guns. Many people in this country own them, but they have to get a Firearms Licence first. for this they need
three documents that prove identity (passport, birth certificate, drivers licence, Photo ID, credit card/bank card) and the two referees, one of which must be your spouse or next of kin, and the other must be someone who is over 20 years old and nota relative. You need to provide their full name, address, date of birth and phone number.

Then you have to pass a personal assessment to see if you are a fit and proper person to be allowed to have a firearm. The police will make this assessment (which includes and interview). Any applicant who fails one or more of the following will not be granted a licence.
  • has been subject to a protection order;
  • has shown disregard for the Arms Act or Arms Regulations, e.g. through a series of minor infractions;
  • has been involved in substance abuse;
  • has committed a serious criminal offence or any crimes involving violence or drugs;
  • is affiliated with a criminal gang;
  • has perpetrated acts or threats of domestic violence;
  • exhibits signs of mental ill health;
  • has attempted to commit suicide or displayed other self injurious behaviour.
Then they have to attend a Safety Lecture and pass a basic written test and finally, their firearms safety locker has to be inspected by a Police officer.

Guns are too easy to get in the USA. These kinds school and mass shooting incidents could be minimised with tighter gun control.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:08 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Guns don't kill people; people kill people. This guy could've stacked a higher body count by setting the building on fire, so are we gonna outlaw matches and gasoline? What next, we gonna outlaw grenades?? Don't be ridiculous.

This is the dumbest thing any gun owner ever said. Of course guns kill people. That there are many ways of killing people does not negate the fact that guns are created for one purpose and one purpose only: TO KILL.

When us gun owner, yes I own guns, say this **** it absolves us of the responsibility of ownership of such a killing implement. We need to stop screaming about the right to own guns, cold dead hands, and spoons make people fat and start taking responsibility for our weapons and have an honest conversation about what guns are, what they do, and what it means to live in an armed society. Until we stop this "guns don't kill" ******** we will never have an honest discussion.

If matches and gasoline are such an awesome and effective weapon why don't people carry them around concealed under their coat to stop a mugger? If matches and gasoline are so effective why don't I keep them next to my bed in case of a break in? Knock it off.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:08 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
Random nuts in a gun culture with easy access to guns. It's not something predictable though or easily stopped.
If those kindergarteners were armed, they could have defended themselves.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:08 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
Expecting a witness involved to reliably count shots to over 100 is unrealistic.
I have no such expectation. Do you? I think somewhere around 100 is probably credible though. I don't think the witness claims to have counted them or to be giving an exact count.

Quote:
I've heard all kinds of wild speculation.
The witness statement that something like 100 rounds were fired isn't wild speculation.

ETA: http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t1#...y-shooting.cnn
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:09 PM   #77
IDB87
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
This is the dumbest thing any gun owner ever said.
Have you read any of Cain's posts before this one?
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That really hustled my bones.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:09 PM   #78
Mister Earl
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I still can't believe it. What the heck...

Someone take the game out of the universal console and scrub the back of the disc with a brillo pad.

NOBODY WANTS TO PLAY EVER AGAIN.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:10 PM   #79
JoeTheJuggler
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
STOP confusing the issue. FACT is he could've killed just as many people with darts or ninja stars!
I'm still not sure if you're being sincere or are parodying arguments.
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Old 14th December 2012, 12:13 PM   #80
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Looks like they've found one of the shooter's parents, apparently murdered in their home in New Jersey this morning.
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