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Tags guns , second amendment

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Old 15th December 2012, 06:34 AM   #1
Ian Osborne
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Last year handguns killed 48 people in Japan

Following the tragic events in Newtown, Connecticut yesterday, this graphic has gone viral on social networking sites:


The alert might note that 'West Germany' ceased to exist as a state in 1990, and if it really referred to 'last year', they might have included Norway, where Anders Behring Breivik killed 77 in one spree. Of course, you might also argue that the USA is so far ahead, it hardly matters.

Having done a little Googling, the statement seems to have been made by Harlan Ellison in 1982, making the stats 30 years old (assuming they're accurate). Does anyone have any further thoughts on the subject? Let's keep this thread focussed on the accuracy, age and relevance of the internet meme, though. We have plenty of others on gun control and the Newtown massacre.
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Old 15th December 2012, 06:40 AM   #2
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_...0%E2%80%932011)

What about the recent rash of spree killings in China?
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Old 15th December 2012, 06:41 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
What about the recent rash of spree killings in China?
They'd make a very interesting subject for a thread, if you wished to start one on them.
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Old 15th December 2012, 06:48 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
They'd make a very interesting subject for a thread, if you wished to start one on them.
Do you have the statistics for murder rates by all means by country? You wouldn't want to paint an incomplete picture.
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Old 15th December 2012, 06:50 AM   #5
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If I'm not mistaken, most handgun deaths are suicides.

I don't dispute the statistics. I don't know what there is to discuss if you're not posting the statistics as an implicit call to modify our gun laws.
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Old 15th December 2012, 06:55 AM   #6
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when I read the title, my first instict was to say
"YEA but how many were killed by Samurai swords?" Right, I mean that's the meme the 2nd ammendmant freaks always pull out.

Though the poster maybe 30 years old and the numbers may vary from year to year. the poster is still very accurate in it's representation! I would also add Canada to the list jsut to squash the meme about well THOSE countries surpress the rights of the people to own guns. Canada has jsut as many as the US yet their murder by guns rate is still very much in the same group as the other counrties. So while there might be something legitimate about guns dont kill people and that there is more going on. there also has to be something to the fact that even in a state like MA where i live, that has supposedly the most restrictive regs (outside of DC and perhaps NY) getting a gun is still pretty much like going to 7-11.
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Old 15th December 2012, 06:59 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by zeggman View Post
If I'm not mistaken, most handgun deaths are suicides.

I don't dispute the statistics. I don't know what there is to discuss if you're not posting the statistics as an implicit call to modify our gun laws.
About 2 third are suicide. But even if you remove them there is the order of magnitude of around 3000 hand gun murder per year. No matter how you try to wring it out, there is nearly an order of magnitude more murder in the USA per 100 000 inhabitant.
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Old 15th December 2012, 07:01 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Do you have the statistics for murder rates by all means by country? You wouldn't want to paint an incomplete picture.
The original stats aren't specifically murders, but that they paint an incomplete picture is a fair criticism of the graphic. Do you have any more complete statistics?
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Old 15th December 2012, 07:03 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by zeggman View Post
I don't dispute the statistics. I don't know what there is to discuss if you're not posting the statistics as an implicit call to modify our gun laws.
The graphic in the OP is clearly making that call, so it's a legitimate topic for discussion here. I just don't want the thread to leave the stats raised behind and become another general gun control argument.

Does anyone have any further information on the picture doing the rounds, or the statistics it quotes? Where did they come from? Are they accurate? How were they compiled?
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Old 15th December 2012, 07:06 AM   #10
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Here we go again.

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Old 15th December 2012, 07:21 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
The original stats aren't specifically murders, but that they paint an incomplete picture is a fair criticism of the graphic. Do you have any more complete statistics?
Total murders. (US does not even make the list)
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita

Murders by guns.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...-with-firearms

There are tons of these statistics. I have yet to see a compelling case that guns are the primary cause of crime. In the US it just seems to be the preferred method.
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Old 15th December 2012, 08:18 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Having done a little Googling, the statement seems to have been made by Harlan Ellison in 1982, making the stats 30 years old (assuming they're accurate). Does anyone have any further thoughts on the subject? Let's keep this thread focussed on the accuracy, age and relevance of the internet meme, though. We have plenty of others on gun control and the Newtown massacre.
The number of gun homicides for US for 2009 that I found was 11,493 out of a total 16,799 homicides, so it's reasonably accurate still. The same report also named homicide the 15th leading cause of death in the US.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_03.pdf

The number of England and Wales (no Scotland and Northern Ireland) was 636 homicides.
What I find most alarming is that more people per capita are killed in US by means other than firearms than there are total murders in England and Wales.

Quote:
Total murders. (US does not even make the list)
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita
Yeah, um, you wouldn't in a list of European countries plus Turkey ...

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Old 15th December 2012, 08:43 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Total murders. (US does not even make the list)
The site you linked to does not seem to offer overall US murder statistics. Every other site I've looked at indicates the US has ranged from 40 to 60 murders per million over the last decade. This would put us at about the same level as the Ukraine in your chart.
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Old 15th December 2012, 09:05 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Ray Brady View Post
The site you linked to does not seem to offer overall US murder statistics. Every other site I've looked at indicates the US has ranged from 40 to 60 murders per million over the last decade. This would put us at about the same level as the Ukraine in your chart.
You are correct. My bad on that chart.

Here from the same site:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...me-murder-rate
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Old 15th December 2012, 09:41 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_...0%E2%80%932011)

What about the recent rash of spree killings in China?
You know you're grasping at straws when your rallying call is 'China is almost as bad!'.
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Old 15th December 2012, 09:45 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
...they might have included Norway, where Anders Behring Breivik killed 77 in one spree.
With those included, according to police statistics, that means 81 people were killed with firearms in Norway last year. The numbers for the two previous years are 3 (2010) and 8 (2009).

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Old 15th December 2012, 09:46 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_...0%E2%80%932011)

What about the recent rash of spree killings in China?
You mean the "spree" where something like a dozen different attacks over more than a year lead to fewer deaths than happened in a few minutes yesterday? That spree?
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Old 15th December 2012, 10:11 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Magyar View Post
when I read the title, my first instict was to say
"YEA but how many were killed by Samurai swords?" Right, I mean that's the meme the 2nd ammendmant freaks always pull out.

Though the poster maybe 30 years old and the numbers may vary from year to year. the poster is still very accurate in it's representation! I would also add Canada to the list jsut to squash the meme about well THOSE countries surpress the rights of the people to own guns. Canada has jsut as many as the US yet their murder by guns rate is still very much in the same group as the other counrties. So while there might be something legitimate about guns dont kill people and that there is more going on. there also has to be something to the fact that even in a state like MA where i live, that has supposedly the most restrictive regs (outside of DC and perhaps NY) getting a gun is still pretty much like going to 7-11.
This may blow your mind, but Japan also has a certain amount of control on live sword (read as sharp as opposed to decorative) possession, but have absolute draconian controls on sword makers - they can only make a small number of Katana sized blades, anda slightly higher number of Walizashis and Tanto sized blades each year.

Many Japanese sword smiths have turned to making western style blades for export in an effort to make ends meet.

The cost of a modern made Japanese Katana sword by a noted sword smith can run upwards of 20K $ U.S.
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Old 15th December 2012, 10:58 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
With those included, according to police statistics, that means 81 people were killed with firearms in Norway last year. The numbers for the two previous years are 3 (2010) and 8 (2009).
That would give Norway a rating of approximately 20 per million, in the same range as Brazil and El Salvador, and worse than Mexico.

Clearly we shouldn't count one off events like this one (hopefully) was under such statistics

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Old 15th December 2012, 11:03 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
You mean the "spree" where something like a dozen different attacks over more than a year lead to fewer deaths than happened in a few minutes yesterday? That spree?
Yes. What's your point. Are they less dead because a gun was not used?
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Old 15th December 2012, 11:04 AM   #21
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One thing that is relevant here - if you take a look at the number of people killed in such spree shootings per capita, I think Finland is still the undisputed leader. It had about three such attacks in the past decade or so.

I googled this:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe...516228659.html

18 dead from three attacks, or an equivalent of over 1,000 dead in the US in such attacks. It's a statistical anomaly caused by the large differance in population sizes, but it does show that it's not only a problem in the US, and that gon control alone isn't the solution. It may be a part of the solution, but it's not a solution as such.

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Old 15th December 2012, 11:05 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
You know you're grasping at straws when your rallying call is 'China is almost as bad!'.
What "straws" am I grasping? Did I claim what you said or do you just think I did?
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Old 15th December 2012, 11:10 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Following the tragic events in Newtown, Connecticut yesterday, this graphic has gone viral on social networking sites:


The alert might note that 'West Germany' ceased to exist as a state in 1990, and if it really referred to 'last year', they might have included Norway, where Anders Behring Breivik killed 77 in one spree. Of course, you might also argue that the USA is so far ahead, it hardly matters.

Having done a little Googling, the statement seems to have been made by Harlan Ellison in 1982, making the stats 30 years old (assuming they're accurate). Does anyone have any further thoughts on the subject? Let's keep this thread focussed on the accuracy, age and relevance of the internet meme, though. We have plenty of others on gun control and the Newtown massacre.
You re likely correct about the date - the caption of the photo cites "Handgun Control Inc.". That organization changed its name in 2001 (and of course, West Germany stopped being just "West" Germany 12 years before that. It is now the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.

So, the numbers are probably off, but I don't know how far off. I think the general message still comes across, though.
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Old 15th December 2012, 11:11 AM   #24
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How would suicide bombers fall into these specs (or all types of this)? Does that also count as murder?
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Old 15th December 2012, 11:18 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
How would suicide bombers fall into these specs (or all types of this)? Does that also count as murder?
Dear DGM,

Are you implying some suicide bombers do it by accident?

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Old 15th December 2012, 11:18 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
What "straws" am I grasping? Did I claim what you said or do you just think I did?
If your comment wasn't an argument against the OP, to which you replied, then I guess you're just posting random stuff?
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Old 15th December 2012, 11:33 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Dear DGM,

Are you implying some suicide bombers do it by accident?

Cpl Ferro
No, why would you ask. Are these events counted in the murder rates of countries that they happen in? I don't believe they do. It seems to fall into a separate category. I've seen rates excluding "political extremism".

To me, it's all murder.
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Old 15th December 2012, 11:37 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
If your comment wasn't an argument against the OP, to which you replied, then I guess you're just posting random stuff?
The argument was to point out how does the OP justify the numbers as to total murders (as the OP acknowledged).

So, How does it? Are guns the problem or is it the people?
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Old 15th December 2012, 11:37 AM   #29
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I think hand guns or firearms in general make the "psychology" of killing, including suicide, easier.

I think it's easier to put a gun against your head and pull the trigger in a moment of severe psychological distress than it is to go through the rig-moral of other methods that take time and potentially give you time to think or other people time to intervene.

Similarly it's far less distressing to shoot someone than it is to bludgeon them to death with a rock. It's also a far, far more efficient which is what guns are designed to do - kill as efficiently as possible.
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Old 15th December 2012, 11:52 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
I think hand guns or firearms in general make the "psychology" of killing, including suicide, easier.
I couldn't agree more. But, what percentage of these are truly motivated (where it doesn't matter) to the spur of the moment? I've seen many reports where these nuts have been planing these thing for years, convenience be damned.
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
I think it's easier to put a gun against your head and pull the trigger in a moment of severe psychological distress than it is to go through the rig-moral of other methods that take time and potentially give you time to think or other people time to intervene.
I was just reading a report that stated most suicides are not by gun but poison (I'll post the link later when I get back)

Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
Similarly it's far less distressing to shoot someone than it is to bludgeon them to death with a rock. It's also a far, far more efficient which is what guns are designed to do - kill as efficiently as possible.
Bombs work to the end also (if not more so). What's to say that if you take away guns, people are not going to get more creative?

This is my point. Is it the method or the madness?
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Old 15th December 2012, 12:29 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
I couldn't agree more. But, what percentage of these are truly motivated (where it doesn't matter) to the spur of the moment? I've seen many reports where these nuts have been planing these thing for years, convenience be damned.
People are all different. There was a case of a bloke in the UK who built his own guillotine and then used it! Some people will plan meticulously - see Timothy McVeigh.

My point was that a gun (with ammo) is a ready made and reasonably accessible "solution" in the US.

Originally Posted by DGM View Post
I was just reading a report that stated most suicides are not by gun but poison (I'll post the link later when I get back)
Sure, I don't know the stats in the US. To my mind reducing the number of "easy" ways to kill oneself (and others) is logical, which depends upon priority.

A proportion of suicides are cries for help that go wrong - there is potential time for someone to be found and treated if poisoned, not so much a gunshot wound to the head.

Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Bombs work to the end also (if not more so). What's to say that if you take away guns, people are not going to get more creative?

This is my point. Is it the method or the madness?
It's both.

One thing though, you can't get a permit to own a 1000 lb bomb. Building bombs takes time and materials then you've got to transfer it to the target. That means there is more time for the intention to be found out and the act stopped.

I don't think we will ever be able to pick up every mentally ill person, individual who has "suddenly snapped" or terrorist who is intent on committing atrocities, however, reducing their ability to kill within reason is to me logical. No one likes the additional security checks at airports and many would say it's an over reaction, but I don't think there is anyone that would suggest that no action should have been taken post 9/11.
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Old 15th December 2012, 12:52 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
The argument was to point out how does the OP justify the numbers as to total murders (as the OP acknowledged).

So, How does it? Are guns the problem or is it the people?
Well, the incident yesterday killed more people than all the sprees in China in the last decade combined. Seems to me, yes, it's the guns.

But it's nice to see that your argument was indeed 'China is bad too!'.
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Old 15th December 2012, 12:55 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post

I don't think we will ever be able to pick up every mentally ill person, individual who has "suddenly snapped" or terrorist who is intent on committing atrocities, however, reducing their ability to kill within reason is to me logical. No one likes the additional security checks at airports and many would say it's an over reaction, but I don't think there is anyone that would suggest that no action should have been taken post 9/11.

Again, I agree. The point of the matter is what is this reasonable approach? You can't eliminate the guns. They are used for reasonable purposes by a great number of people. If you make the laws tougher so it's more difficult this really only effects the people that are obtaining them through legal means. What's to say if you comply, you don't go nuts after?

I'm not sure I get the reasoning why gun enthusiasts need semi-auto weapons, maybe someone can explain this to me.
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Old 15th December 2012, 01:10 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
The argument was to point out how does the OP justify the numbers as to total murders (as the OP acknowledged).

So, How does it? Are guns the problem or is it the people?
Guns don't kill people, Americans kill people?
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Old 15th December 2012, 01:21 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by DrDave View Post
Guns don't kill people, Americans kill people?
Maybe it has something to do with the "mixing pot".

Maybe if we were all the same we wouldn't want to kill each other.
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Old 15th December 2012, 01:33 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
The alert might note that 'West Germany' ceased to exist as a state in 1990, and if it really referred to 'last year', they might have included Norway, where Anders Behring Breivik killed 77 in one spree. Of course, you might also argue that the USA is so far ahead, it hardly matters.

Having done a little Googling, the statement seems to have been made by Harlan Ellison in 1982, making the stats 30 years old (assuming they're accurate). Does anyone have any further thoughts on the subject?

My first thought would be using raw numbers, given the differences in population size between the listed countries, is not particularly meaningful. It would have been better to use the per capita rate of firearms-related homicides.

As to figures, Statistics Canada last week reported the crime figures for 2011. Overall, homicides were actually up in Canada, from 554 in 2010 to 598 in 2011. The per capita rate was 1.73 per 100,000 population. Stabbings accounted for 35% of homicides; firearms, 27%; beatings, 22%; strangulation, 7%. That 27% figure for homicides using firearms works out to 162 deaths.
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Old 15th December 2012, 01:46 PM   #37
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Looking at the FBI Uniform Crime Report, homicide by handgun was 6,220 in 2012 (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...e-data-table-8), which indicates a 40% decrease from the time the poster was originally made. This also fits in with a trend of violent crime decreasing significantly from 1.42m estimated offences in 2007 to ~1.2m estimated offences in 2012 (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr.../violent-crime)

ETA: I think it would be better to focus on the causes of violent crime (poverty, mental illness etc.) rather than a symptom (gun crime).

ETA: I also find it interesting that despite gun sales increasing significantly during the Obama Administration, violent crime has gone down rather than up. This would be an interesting question to answer.
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Old 15th December 2012, 02:44 PM   #38
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Old 15th December 2012, 02:48 PM   #39
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Japan had something along the lines of 1100 murders, 48 were by guns. Is there a point to this discussion?
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Old 15th December 2012, 02:48 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
As to figures, Statistics Canada last week reported the crime figures for 2011. Overall, homicides were actually up in Canada, from 554 in 2010 to 598 in 2011. The per capita rate was 1.73 per 100,000 population. Stabbings accounted for 35% of homicides; firearms, 27%; beatings, 22%; strangulation, 7%. That 27% figure for homicides using firearms works out to 162 deaths.
Isn't Canadian gun ownership comparable if not even more widespread in the US?

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