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Old 17th December 2012, 06:09 PM   #121
CORed
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Originally Posted by BowlOfRed View Post
In a psychological sense, I think that's correct. Any flaw in the product becomes not a flaw in the product but a personal fault in them for making the choice. The pain is resolved by justification that the flaw does not exist (or that the alternatives are more deeply flawed).

See also:
mac vs pc
xbox vs playstation
Harley vs Kawasaki
democrat vs republican

There's no need for external pressures to explain the behavior.
There is a reason that, back in the days of usenet, such arguments were called "religious wars".
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Old 17th December 2012, 10:20 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
It's not - I'm waiting for someone to demonstrate what 'Android Freedom' actually means. Bar a few less swipes needed or the odd second here and there saved in a few applications to achieve the same effect as in iOS, I'm still waiting.
Not sure what you are waiting for... it was explained many times in this thread, and a month ago when you asked.

As one example, you can shop at Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target, The Mall, A Mom&Pop, A Back Alley Dealer, or any store in any country in the world.

Or you can shop at just Wal-Mart.

Your response to that was "But they have everything I could ever want or need at Wal-Mart! I'm happy and satisfied!!"

I wonder if you seriously understand how you being "satisfied" with just Wal-Mart doesn't suddenly make the difference disappear??


Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Android creates a good illusion of freedom but, unless you can code, beyond the ability to do some minor tweaks (which amount to redundant choices), and some slightly more streamlined features, it's not much more 'free' than iOS.

If by "not much more" you mean "a nearly infinite amount more", then sure!
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Old 18th December 2012, 01:10 AM   #123
Alan
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
It's horses for courses Alan. I'm more concerned with the people who actively go out of their way to be as vocally critical about iOS and iOS device owners as possible. They trumpet this 'Freedom' as loud as they can on any message board where the subject comes up, but none can adequately explain what this 'freedom' actually consists of.

Things can be made better, but for me, redesigning a keyboard isn't 'better'. Reinventing the wheel, doesn't necessarily make it better.



This is why I keep asking for specific examples from people who tell me I'm not 'free', or Android is better because Apple are 'The Man, and they want to keep you down and control you, dude!"
In the context of Android when people talk about freedom, it generally means it gives people more options. In hardware and software. And is open to modification to a greater degree instead of resisting it. Some of it is good for particular people, some of it is bad for particular people, some of it includes crappy tablets and phones that barely work, some of it ones that work wonderfully.

As an asside, the issue of what constitutes software freedom is a complicated one with different points of view like freedom of developers vs freedom of users and the freedom of users to be restricted. But they probably don't mean it in that sense. Like here's probably the main free software person, and advocate of a particular side on the debate who is a critic of Android.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/andro...s-freedom.html
The conclusion, if you aren't interested in the full article:
Originally Posted by Richard Stallman
Android is a major step towards an ethical, user-controlled, free software portable phone, but there is a long way to go. Hackers are working on Replicant, but it's a big job to support a new phone model, and there remains the problem of the firmware. Even though the Android phones of today are considerably less bad than Apple or Windows smartphones, they cannot be said to respect your freedom.
If they mean it is free in that FSF/GNU/GPL sense, then they will be wrong.

I don't agree with every individual point but here is a long (24 minute) video about how the business strategies differ and that a strategy's strength is often also a weakness in comparison to an opposite way of doing things, and how they are both good in different ways. It's summarised in the video's description if you choose "show more".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL-0EFkA6Xg

That custom keyboard that allows touch typing (as in typing without looking) on a tablet is a valuable idea for the audience it's developed for. Perhaps another developer or the same one will build on that idea and make it better for them and more people. A touch-keyboard can benefit from a redesign to differentiate it from a key-keyboard as the way we use them are different. There's room for a redesign and a rethink of how keyboards could be best adapted to touch.

Last edited by Alan; 18th December 2012 at 01:24 AM.
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Old 18th December 2012, 05:42 AM   #124
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I currently own an iPhone 4 and the wife has a 4s. Previously owned a 1st gen and a 3gs.

Use them constantly, along with a 1st gen iPad (me) and an iPad 2 (Karen).
Also have a 2009 MacBook Pro and an AppleTV. Use Airport Expresses and either iTunes Match or Home Sharing to send the music to various speakers around the house. Karen would love a new iMac, if Santa sees fit.

All this works pretty well most of the time, and should establish me as a fanboy, I guess.

I ask this because someone earlier in the thread mentioned that iPhones only become a viable choice for him or her if jailbroken. Just wondering - what new and marvelous capabilities open up with jailbreaking? I never have seen a need, so just wonderin'.

Thanks.

Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 18th December 2012 at 05:44 AM.
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:27 AM   #125
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Widgets are the bomb. If you don't have them, of course you don't miss them, but once you have the freedom to use them, its hard to go without!

I currently only have 3 on my current home screen, see attached. One indicating current sales of one of my apps (very shoddy today!), one indicating my current spending and budgeting information for this month, and my pride and joy, a fully animated weather widget, showing appropriate weather conditions with features such as drifting clouds, flying birds, tumbling leaves, sunshine, rain drops, snow, lightning, sleet, ice, etc. etc.

At a glance, I see everything I want at one go. And yes, those extra taps to launch the full app are wasteful and unnecessary if you are allowed widgets. One of the things that Apple have been praised for in the past is streamlining software so that things are easy to use, and useful information is front and centre and not hidden behind unnecessary clicks. Widgets are just an extension of that, giving the user freedom to make things even easier to use for them, in their specific way.

If I was more interested in messages, say, or recently read Books, or music, or recent emails, or different weather, then I can do that and choose the size of widget I want, and choose exactly what I want to show on that widget. More freedom.

Not to mention of course the millions of high quality Live Wallpapers out there, including the 3D photo cube I happen to be sporting. You can only have a static image on iOS. More freedom. Useful to you? Maybe not, but to millions of others they are a hugely popular and cool feature.

Two other freedoms which may or may not have been mentioned yet. Firstly its my understanding that many more applications are free on the Google Play and other app stores, compared to the Apple Store. You can't get much more freedom than free apps! Just this week a installed a free junk call blocker here in HK, that same app is not free on iOS.

Finally, and most importantly, the biggest freedom is that you are not locked into 1 manufacturer. Sure, your iPhone apps work if you buy an iPad, but they won't work if you buy an HTC. However, if I buy a HTC, I am free to use them on other HTCs, LGs, Samsungs, Sonys, Motorola, Huawei, etc. I am free to buy the best phone or tablet that meets my particular needs at the time I want, I am not locked into one manufacturer.
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:52 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I currently own an iPhone 4 and the wife has a 4s. Previously owned a 1st gen and a 3gs.

Use them constantly, along with a 1st gen iPad (me) and an iPad 2 (Karen).
Also have a 2009 MacBook Pro and an AppleTV. Use Airport Expresses and either iTunes Match or Home Sharing to send the music to various speakers around the house. Karen would love a new iMac, if Santa sees fit.

All this works pretty well most of the time, and should establish me as a fanboy, I guess.

I ask this because someone earlier in the thread mentioned that iPhones only become a viable choice for him or her if jailbroken. Just wondering - what new and marvelous capabilities open up with jailbreaking? I never have seen a need, so just wonderin'.

Thanks.
Initially, one reason jailbreaking was popular to unlock the cell radio baseband and move to a network other than ATT in the US. I routinely JB phones for my sister-in-law so she could be on t-mobile. Because of differences in implementation, data on the '3G' network didn't work, but everything else did.

Probably second on the list was tethering. Before Verizons and the fcc started mixing it up, tethering was expensive, if it was even offered on your carrier. So you could JB and install software to let you connect your laptop or other device to use your 'unlimited' ATT cellular data through your phone.

Third would be customization. Remember the good old days when you couldn't even change the background on your iPhone ?? Before folders ? Before multi-tasking ? Wifi syncing ? All of those things were available via JB.

Of course, you can also download and install games and other apps for free, instead of paying. I would guess that may be the most popular reason these days....

iOS has come a long way. There used to be a lot of reasons to JB. Now, not so much.
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Old 18th December 2012, 04:28 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I currently own an iPhone 4 and the wife has a 4s. Previously owned a 1st gen and a 3gs.

Use them constantly, along with a 1st gen iPad (me) and an iPad 2 (Karen).
Also have a 2009 MacBook Pro and an AppleTV. Use Airport Expresses and either iTunes Match or Home Sharing to send the music to various speakers around the house. Karen would love a new iMac, if Santa sees fit.

All this works pretty well most of the time, and should establish me as a fanboy, I guess.

I ask this because someone earlier in the thread mentioned that iPhones only become a viable choice for him or her if jailbroken. Just wondering - what new and marvelous capabilities open up with jailbreaking? I never have seen a need, so just wonderin'.

Thanks.
Here is a partial list of things jailbreaking allows me to do.

Access to file system. Allows me to create and save text files and copy to PC's or other devices, and download files from the web.

ssh, sftp: Allows me secure access to my home PC from anywhere, for file transfers or remote desktop (using tunneled port). SFTP facilitates file transfers to and from PC's most important being the keePass (password storage) database. I use iKeepass, which is an app store app. This came with an option to run an http (web) server on the phone to transfer the password database to and from a PC via wifi, but this capability seems to have been broken by one of the IOS upgrades. There are some SSH clients available through the app store, but those will shutdown after a period of time if backgrounded, which makes using them for port tunneling much less useful.

Backgrounder: Allows any app to be run in the background. I use this primarily to keep the iKeePass app running so I can copy user ID and password to websites that require password authentication. Also allows backgrounding of SSH sessions for port tunneling.

SBSettings. This give you quicker access to turn on or off wi-fi, ssh server, 3G data, etc., as well as quick reboot, respring (restart home screen, etc.), power off buttons, and an app killer. It doesn't really do anything I can't do without it, but it makes it easier and more efficient.

Terminal emulator and unix utilities, including openSSH client: Probably not useful for most folks who are not uber-geeks like me, but occasionally useful.
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Old 18th December 2012, 05:38 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
Not sure what you are waiting for... it was explained many times in this thread, and a month ago when you asked.

As one example, you can shop at Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target, The Mall, A Mom&Pop, A Back Alley Dealer, or any store in any country in the world.

Or you can shop at just Wal-Mart.

Your response to that was "But they have everything I could ever want or need at Wal-Mart! I'm happy and satisfied!!"

I wonder if you seriously understand how you being "satisfied" with just Wal-Mart doesn't suddenly make the difference disappear??





If by "not much more" you mean "a nearly infinite amount more", then sure!
I'm just about convinced!

Tell me, how do 2 of the most acclaimed and popular mobile games of the past few years hold up on Android: Bastion and Infinity Blade 2?

Bastion was amazing on PC and Mac, and just as good on the iPad. Can't wait to try it on an Android tablet!
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Old 18th December 2012, 05:57 PM   #129
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Android and iOS both have exclusive applications. Since it doesn't seem like a discussion in good faith, I doubt I'll continue with this thread.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:18 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Alan View Post
Android and iOS both have exclusive applications. Since it doesn't seem like a discussion in good faith, I doubt I'll continue with this thread.
Hang on, but according to some on here you can do pretty much anything with Android, and you are totally free. Surely someone has converted Infinity Blade 2 to run on Android?

I realise that there are exclusive Apps to both platforms, and the very definition of something being exclusive to iOS means that it's not free to be used.

People here have already provided examples of exclusive Android software as an example of freedom, yet I'm not allowed to hold up exclusive Apple software to show they're NOT free?

It's OK to tell me I'm not 'free' because my address list doesn't integrate with Google maps, but in the same spirit, what if I was an Android user and saw Apple's maps app and wanted to use it, do I have the freedom to install that?
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Last edited by SatansMaleVoiceChoir; 18th December 2012 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:23 PM   #131
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There are many more incidences of Android having choices than Apple does. Since the number of permutations will at least double with each choice it quickly becomes a lot of ways you can have the phone right for you. The chance that Apple have made all the choices for their 'one size fits all model' with you in mind is pretty small.

Having said that they are both pretty amazing. Put on a subjective scale I would say Apple used to be 95% amazing and Android 90% amazing, now I would say it has reversed. As our appreciation of what is amazing develops I think Android will remain high but Apple will drop down further unless they allow more personal choice.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:27 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Hang on, but according to some on here you can do pretty much anything with Android, and you are totally free. Surely someone has converted Infinity Blade 2 to run on Android?

I realise that there are exclusive Apps to both platforms, and the very definition of something being exclusive to iOS means that it's not free to be used.

People here have already provided examples of exclusive Android software as an example of freedom, yet I'm not allowed to hold up exclusive Apple software to show they're NOT free?

It's OK to tell me I'm not 'free' because my address list doesn't integrate with Google maps, but in the same spirit, what if I was an Android user and saw Apple's maps app and wanted to use it, do I have the freedom to install that?
I think this is a fallacy.

You're saying that because Apple limits how and where their software may be used, therefore Android is restricted, thus less free than we say it is.

You do see the flaw there, right?
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:38 PM   #133
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Congratulations to SMVC for disguising a troll for as long as he/she did.

Shame on me for not catching on sooner.

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Old 18th December 2012, 06:46 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Matty1973 View Post
There are many more incidences of Android having choices than Apple does. Since the number of permutations will at least double with each choice it quickly becomes a lot of ways you can have the phone right for you. The chance that Apple have made all the choices for their 'one size fits all model' with you in mind is pretty small.

Having said that they are both pretty amazing. Put on a subjective scale I would say Apple used to be 95% amazing and Android 90% amazing, now I would say it has reversed. As our appreciation of what is amazing develops I think Android will remain high but Apple will drop down further unless they allow more personal choice.
Android may seem to have more choice available, yes, but ultimately it's all fairly superficial, and it only seems to benefit the serious tech-heads or coders in any kind of meaningful way because only they can use it's flexibility to the full. The loud minority screaming about "freedom" have just as much freedom as I do ultimately - they can't play two of the most popular and critically acclaimed mobile games of the past few years, and I can't download an app that allows me to modify certain aspects of my OS.

It's all about what you want from your device and knowing how to use it to it's full potential. I have still not seen one example of this so-called 'Android Freedom which suggests I am missing anything.

Drop Box doesn't work on iOS? Wouldn't know, because I don't need it; I have iCloud and email.

I can't use removable storage (that's a hardware feature not an Android feature anyway) - ignoring the fact that there are programs on PC and Mac that let you treat your iPhone like a removable HD, I have no need for removable storage, and of the many iPhone users I know none have ever expressed the need either.

I like iOS maps and don't have a problem with it. My friend just used it to drive from Italy to UK without incident.

Why is it so hard for some people to accept that many, many people are more than happy with iOS devices, and don't feel restricted by them, and even prefer them to Android devices?
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:51 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp View Post
I think this is a fallacy.

You're saying that because Apple limits how and where their software may be used, therefore Android is restricted, thus less free than we say it is.

You do see the flaw there, right?
No, and neither do certain people in this thread apparently.

If I owned an Android device I would not be free to play Bastion or Infinity Blade II. Neither of those are Apple Apps.
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Old 18th December 2012, 06:53 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Wangler View Post
Congratulations to SMVC for disguising a troll for as long as he/she did.

Shame on me for not catching on sooner.

Yes, if it makes it easier for you - I'm a troll.
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:13 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
No, and neither do certain people in this thread apparently.

If I owned an Android device I would not be free to play Bastion or Infinity Blade II. Neither of those are Apple Apps.
You seem to have a very strange definition of freedom. It's like saying that just because you can't visit most of North Korea, hence UK citizens enjoy the same amount of universal freedom as the average North Korean.
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:53 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Android may seem to have more choice available, yes, but ultimately it's all fairly superficial, and it only seems to benefit the serious tech-heads or coders in any kind of meaningful way because only they can use it's flexibility to the full.
It's your opinion that it's superficial. You certainly haven't proven it's all superficial.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
The loud minority screaming about "freedom" have just as much freedom as I do ultimately - they can't play two of the most popular and critically acclaimed mobile games of the past few years, and I can't download an app that allows me to modify certain aspects of my OS.
iOS developers are not free to have apps in the app store that modify certain things (like home screens, etc.)

Epic games is free to develop infinity blade for android. That they chose it to be an exclusive on iOS is not the same as not having the freedom to port it to android.

In other words, your example is false.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
It's all about what you want from your device and knowing how to use it to it's full potential. I have still not seen one example of this so-called 'Android Freedom which suggests I am missing anything.
Yes you have, you have just arbitrarily decided those things don't count.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Drop Box doesn't work on iOS? Wouldn't know, because I don't need it; I have iCloud and email.
No one claimed drop box doesn't work on iOS. I'm sorry you apparently can't understand the technical aspects of the argument.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
I can't use removable storage (that's a hardware feature not an Android feature anyway) - ignoring the fact that there are programs on PC and Mac that let you treat your iPhone like a removable HD, I have no need for removable storage, and of the many iPhone users I know none have ever expressed the need either.

I like iOS maps and don't have a problem with it. My friend just used it to drive from Italy to UK without incident.
Thanks for the anecdote. You never addressed my post about things opening by default in apple maps, not the app I actually want to use.

Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Why is it so hard for some people to accept that many, many people are more than happy with iOS devices, and don't feel restricted by them, and even prefer them to Android devices?
It's not. Why is it so hard for you to understand their point of view, even if you don't agree with it ?
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Old 19th December 2012, 01:24 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
No, and neither do certain people in this thread apparently.

If I owned an Android device I would not be free to play Bastion or Infinity Blade II. Neither of those are Apple Apps.
Of course you are. Just ask the game devs to code it for Android. Google won't mind.
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Old 19th December 2012, 01:28 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Why is it so hard for some people to accept that many, many people are more than happy with iOS devices, and don't feel restricted by them, and even prefer them to Android devices?
I think you will find the vast majority do accept that. If my sister asked me for a recommendation on a smartphone or tablet for her and the kids I wouldn't hesitate to recommend an i-whatever. And that's what I did.

Just because I would only ever buy Android products (I'm a tinkerer at heart) does not mean her or your preference is wrong.
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Old 19th December 2012, 06:09 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Yes, if it makes it easier for you - I'm a troll.
You most certainly are, but it has nothing to do with being easier for me.
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Old 19th December 2012, 06:11 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
I'm just about convinced!

Tell me, how do 2 of the most acclaimed and popular mobile games of the past few years hold up on Android: Bastion and Infinity Blade 2?

Bastion was amazing on PC and Mac, and just as good on the iPad. Can't wait to try it on an Android tablet!
[SMVC]
But, I have no desire to play those games on my Android device, so I fail to see how that can be construed as an example of some sort of advantage for iOS.
[/SMVC]

Trolling is easier..for the troll!

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Old 19th December 2012, 10:33 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by merentha View Post
You seem to have a very strange definition of freedom. It's like saying that just because you can't visit most of North Korea, hence UK citizens enjoy the same amount of universal freedom as the average North Korean.
It's a troll's definition. It's pretty clear that SMVC is interested only in scoring points and "winning" the argument, even though he is likely the only person who thinks he's "winning".

I think I'm pretty much done feeding this troll. Some trolls are at least entertaining, but this one isn't.
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Old 19th December 2012, 11:47 AM   #144
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Lets face it.

There is an advantage of having the maker of the hardware also make the the operating system. Why buy a Ford and then use a Chevy engine to run it?

You run into an issue and you get the old "it's the operating systems fault" or "it's a hardware issues"

Your iDevice screws up and it's Apple who has to fix it.
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Old 19th December 2012, 11:55 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by notheist View Post
Lets face it.

There is an advantage of having the maker of the hardware also make the the operating system. Why buy a Ford and then use a Chevy engine to run it?

You run into an issue and you get the old "it's the operating systems fault" or "it's a hardware issues"

Your iDevice screws up and it's Apple who has to fix it.
Yes, if only android phone makers had access to the source code of the operating system, and programmers .. why then they could tweak the OS to work smoothly with their hardware, create custom skins and launchers ... oh wait....
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Old 19th December 2012, 01:51 PM   #146
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SatansMaleVoiceChoir, judging by the way you've been conducting yourself in this discussion, it appears that you asked the question in your OP not for the honest purpose of receiving an answer, but just to instigate yet another bicker-fest over "Android vs IOS." Hence, the accusations of trolling.

Several people have answered your question patiently and reasonably, and even provided numerous examples. Yet you've ignored the reasoning behind the answers in favor of twaddling over every example with weak tu quoque arguments.

The point of "Android freedom" is that Android doesn't require its users to rely for all their device's functionality on a single commercial marketplace owned by the manufacturer and operated in an extremely restrictive manner. The point is that Android, being based on open source software, is a more "free" and "open" ecosystem. In other words, anybody can develop applications and anyone can install those applications without commercial licensing restrictions or other legal constraints, if both parties so choose. That kind of freedom is quite simply not allowed by Apple, which reserves the right to approve or deny access to any IOS applications at their own discretion (which many IOS developers argue is arbitrary and unfair). You may not appreciate that kind of freedom, but those who value it do have valid reasons and are not wrong in pointing out that the difference exists.

If you're really having trouble understanding what "open source" means and the advantages it offers over proprietary models, then I suggest you start by reading the Wikipedia entry on open source software, and this paper describing its advantages. You can learn more by contrasting that with the Wikipedia entry on the Walled Garden ecosystem model.
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Old 19th December 2012, 03:44 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by notheist View Post
Lets face it.

There is an advantage of having the maker of the hardware also make the the operating system. Why buy a Ford and then use a Chevy engine to run it?

You run into an issue and you get the old "it's the operating systems fault" or "it's a hardware issues"

Your iDevice screws up and it's Apple who has to fix it.
Yes, and there are advantages to keeping software tightly controlled, too. It greatly reduces the chance of having a phone or tablet screwed up by malicious (or incompetently designed) software. If you want a relatively trouble-free device, find that Apple and Apple-approved software meets your needs, and don't mind paying a bit more, iPhone and iPad are good devices for you. I like to tinker, and I like the freedom to use my device the way that I want to use it, even if that's not exactly what the manufacturer think I should be using it for, but that freedom does come at a cost. To me it's worth it, but to others may not be.

I think both open source and proprietary models have strengths and weaknesses. I don't really expect either model to go away any time soon.

Last edited by CORed; 19th December 2012 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 20th December 2012, 04:00 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Because - as I told you and others - I live in the UK and it works fine for me.

I'll just reiterate a point I raised earlier; my friend used Apple Maps to get from Italy across Europe, to Peterborough in the UK with no problems.

YMMV

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
And you haven't 'just used' iOS maps - you clicked on an address in your contact list only opens in Apple maps, even though you want to use google maps. But you can't. Because apple won't let you assign a default mapping application. Not because they can't ... because they won't.

You wouldn't want to, you are forced to if you want to use something other than apple maps.
I'm sorry if you're having trouble understanding this, but I'm not forced into using anything. Apple Maps is the only mapping software that's integrated into the iOS, but I am free to use Google maps - or any other mapping software I can purchase or download from the App Store. If I ask my phone to show me a contact address on a map, I couldn't care less if it shows me it in "Muppet Show Mapping", as long as I get the end result I'm after. If I'd actually prefer to use another application to navigate me to that address, then it's the work of seconds to switch over and enter the postcode into the other App, but if the baked-in App does the job, then what's the problem?

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
I'm sorry none of the specific things I listed are things you want to do. But then again, if you never used android and had the option, you don't really know that you wouldn't actually prefer some of them, do you?

As for the rest of the post, you seem to be intentionally missing the point. At least I hope it's intentional...
You're getting closer to grasping the point. 'Freedom' is subjective, and I'm tired of people telling me I'm not 'free', when my device does everything I need it to, and the majority of my friends who own iDevices don't feel they're missing out on anything either.

What you have to understand is that I work in an environment where I see many, many people every day, and I travel a lot and see people using mobile devices out and about; I see more Apple devices than Android devices, and all my friends have Apple devices, bar one or two S3 owners, and 5 or 6 HTC owners. This amazing 'Android Freedom' is wasted on your average phone user who just wants a phone, messaging service, web browser and media player, and they just want it to do exactly what it says on the tin with the minimum of fuss.

Essentially 'Android Freedom' is either totally ignored by the majority, or they know they have it and don't choose to use it.
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Old 20th December 2012, 04:07 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by malicus View Post
I think you will find the vast majority do accept that. If my sister asked me for a recommendation on a smartphone or tablet for her and the kids I wouldn't hesitate to recommend an i-whatever. And that's what I did.

Just because I would only ever buy Android products (I'm a tinkerer at heart) does not mean her or your preference is wrong.
I'm not saying anyone's preference is wrong, I'm just pointing out that the 'Freedom' that a vocal minority of Android users keep screaming at me about isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

The car analogy is a good one; Apple provide you with a prefectly good car and allow you to tinker with it to a certain extent and restrict you to buying the fuel and parts only from them.

An 'Android Car' allows the average user to change dials around, play with the steering wheel, move controls around and buy spares and fuel from anywhere they like(with no guarantee of quality), but the dials are still dials; the steering wheel still steers the car no matter what you do to it, and for all the tweaking, the primary purpose of the car is still the same - to get from A to B - and I can still do it in the Apple car.
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Old 20th December 2012, 04:11 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Wangler View Post
You most certainly are, but it has nothing to do with being easier for me.
Yes, because I don't agree with other people's opinions, I'm trolling, therefore my opinions can be dismissed.
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Old 20th December 2012, 04:21 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Wangler View Post
[SMVC]
But, I have no desire to play those games on my Android device, so I fail to see how that can be construed as an example of some sort of advantage for iOS.
[/SMVC]

Trolling is easier..for the troll!

I didn't say it is an advantage. If you'll notice, I'm not screaming that iOS is better, or gives me more 'freedom' than Android. My whole point is that the supposed 'Android Freedom' doesn't really amount to anything much more substantial than what I have with IOS, unless you're a coder who can take advantage of the admittedly greater flexibility. My point is also that the majority (of the minority) of retards screaming about freedom don't have the knowledge to do much more than download a few apps which allow them to make superficial changes.

I brought up those two games in response to someone saying that with Android they are free to do anything they want (or similar) - I haven't time to dig out the quote ATM, I'm afraid.

For whatever reason, those two games cannot be played on an Android device, so my point was that they don't have complete 'freedom'. Certainly in the case of 'Bastion' it can be played on a PC, a Mac, an XBox, an iPhone or iPad.
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Old 20th December 2012, 04:38 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
SatansMaleVoiceChoir, judging by the way you've been conducting yourself in this discussion, it appears that you asked the question in your OP not for the honest purpose of receiving an answer, but just to instigate yet another bicker-fest over "Android vs IOS." Hence, the accusations of trolling.
I'm sorry if it appears that way, but I simply do not agree with the majority of examples of 'Android Freedom'. Some people seem a bit put out by this.

Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
Several people have answered your question patiently and reasonably, and even provided numerous examples. Yet you've ignored the reasoning behind the answers in favor of twaddling over every example with weak tu quoque arguments.
Those arguments had a purpose; freedom is subjective. The examples provided when put into the context of an every day user's scenario were weak, I'm afraid. As I mentioned earlier, I had an App which allowed me to write simple scripts to customise various bits of iOS functionality; it was a fairly powerful app. The novelty wore off after a few days and I uninstalled it; all the tweaks it let me make to iOS were all much of a muchness, and I found myself doing things the normal way, simply because it was what I was used to, mostly not much more effort than setting up and using the tweak, and Apple updates made many of the tweaks redundant anyway.

People mentioned things like being able to see their entire days schedule on the lock screen - well if that works for them, great! I can acheive the same thing by holding down the home button and saying "What's my schedule like today?" Freedom?

Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
The point of "Android freedom" is that Android doesn't require its users to rely for all their device's functionality on a single commercial marketplace owned by the manufacturer and operated in an extremely restrictive manner. The point is that Android, being based on open source software, is a more "free" and "open" ecosystem. In other words, anybody can develop applications and anyone can install those applications without commercial licensing restrictions or other legal constraints, if both parties so choose. That kind of freedom is quite simply not allowed by Apple, which reserves the right to approve or deny access to any IOS applications at their own discretion (which many IOS developers argue is arbitrary and unfair). You may not appreciate that kind of freedom, but those who value it do have valid reasons and are not wrong in pointing out that the difference exists.
I'll be honest, and quite mercenary - I'm not interested in how free developers are to do whatever they want; I don't care if Apple makes prospective developers sacrifice their children in order to be allowed to make Apps, as long as they produce good quality apps that people want to use. I only care about my (the customer/user) freedom; not the Devs. Given the choice and quality of Apps on the App Store, I'm absolutely fine with the way things are, and therefore it looks like a lot of developers are too.

Is freedom really freedom if you don't use it? It's OK saying "Today I could go surfing, mountain climbing, I could take piano lessons!" but then deciding to stay in and read a book, every day with no intention of ever doing any of those things.
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Old 20th December 2012, 04:43 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
Is freedom really freedom if you don't use it?
Yes, of course it is.
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Old 20th December 2012, 06:05 AM   #154
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Thank you CORed and TheL8Elvis for listing some of the benefits of jailbreaking.

I've been a Mac user since 1986. Over the years I have played with tweaking OS's. Does anyone remember "Juggler"? But over the years I've found it easier to just pretty much stick with "The Apple Way" - for instance, I know of the existence of terminal commands, but I don't think I've ever opened the Terminal app on my MacBook Pro.

I have personally found no need to tweak my iPhone, nor lack of apps. If anything, there are already too many apps from which to choose.

Apple may champion a "walled garden", and for me that's OK. It's not a huge limitation for me. For instance, the new iTunes 11 is causing problems for some users. The only issue I had was I would sometimes drag podcasts to my iPhone in the sidebar, and they would show up as being in my iPhone, but then not list when I went to play them. Rather than dick around with it, I downloaded a podcast manager app I had heard recommended on various Mac and tech shows called "Downcast". Seems to work better than the iTunes/Podcast app solution. Cost $1.99, but that's trivial to support the developer.

Someday I may jailbreak a phone, possibly my iPhone 4 after I upgrade someday. But I usually get a surprising amount for old phones on eBay, which helps support the new purchase.

In any case, it's nice that consumers have the option of more than one operating system, and the ability to jailbreak an Apple device if they so choose.

Ain't tech grand?

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Old 20th December 2012, 06:24 AM   #155
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SatansMaleVoiceChoir, you are still not getting it, or are ignoring the evidence.

An Android user has the freedom to have Live Wallpapers. You, an iOS user, do not have that freedom because Apple has ruled it so. You personally may not want to have Live Wallpapers, but even if you did, you could not. Therefore you have less freedom.

An Android user has the freedom to have use widgets to display extra information at a glance without having to delve into an app. You, an iOS user, do not have that freedom because Apple has ruled it so. You personally may not want to use widgets, or actually prefer to do things less efficiently, but even if you did, you could not. Therefore you have less freedom.

An Android user has the freedom to choose which App of a particular type is launched by the OS in response to a request, such as a Map. You, an iOS user, do not have that freedom because Apple has ruled it so, you always get the built in Maps app. You personally may not want to use anything but the built in one, and may be lucky enough to live in an area that is iOS Maps error free, but even if you did, you could not. Therefore you have less freedom.

An Android user has the freedom to choose which keyboard they use to type, for example the hugely popular Swype, which allows far more efficient typing than any standard keyboard. You, an iOS user, do not have that freedom because Apple has ruled it so, you always get the built in keyboard. You personally may not want to use anything but the built in one, but even if you did, you could not. Therefore you have less freedom.

An Android user has the freedom to buy another brand of Android phone and have all their apps automatically transfer and work. You are not restricted to a single manufacturer. You, an iOS user, do not have that freedom because Apple has ruled it so, you must buy an Apple device if you wish to retain your apps. You personally may not want to use anything but Apple devices ever, but if you did, you could not. Therefore you have less freedom.

You can detect the pattern.

You, an iOS user, currently have the freedom to run certain types of software for example Infinity Blade 2 on your iOS device. An Android user does not. Is this because the Android manufacturer has ruled it so? No, it is because the Infinity Blade 2 developer has chosen not to port it to Android, but they are perfectly free to do so.

Others have pointed out further examples, but the fact remains, there are concrete freedoms that Android users have that iOS users do not have. You may not find them useful, but they are real.
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Old 20th December 2012, 06:51 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
freedom is subjective.
Bad news is that you are completely and utterly wrong here. Freedom is not subjective.

Good news is that this error of yours might get us closer to understanding.

Freedom is not subjective, never has been, never will be.

What is subjective is the value one places on that freedom.

For you, the freedoms that Android provide don't hold any value. None whatsoever it seems clear. That certainly doesn't mean you are wrong; that is your preference, and you are justified in having that preference. More power too you.

So, when rabid Android zealots go on and on about Android freedom, they are not wrong in placing personal value in those freedoms. Where they are wrong is when they try to project their perception of value for those freedoms onto others, like yourself.

When the Android zealots state stuff like, "You are just one of the Apple sheeple, and too stupid to know better", they are in essence claiming you are wrong, because you don't value the Android freedoms like they do.

But, of course you aren't wrong in that regard.

Your only error is claiming that Android freedom is subjective. It most certainly is not.

Your only other possible error is trying to project your perceived value of Android freedoms onto others, for example: "That 'freedom' has no intrinsic value; you Android users are misinformed, fidgeting fools".
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Old 20th December 2012, 08:02 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Wangler View Post
Bad news is that you are completely and utterly wrong here. Freedom is not subjective.

Good news is that this error of yours might get us closer to understanding.

Freedom is not subjective, never has been, never will be.

What is subjective is the value one places on that freedom.
That is PRECISELY what I am getting at. Freedom to do something which I have no intention of doing/couldn't do/don't even know exists is not freedom as far as I am concerned; what is the difference between not doing something because someone else forbids it, and not doing something because I have no intention, or doing it is of no value to me? I was never going to do it anyway. I may as well say iOS means freedom because I am free to Jailbreak it then do absolutely anything with it I want; that freedom exists, even though I don't want to use it and have no intention of using it.

All Android users are not free to do 'anything' they like on their Android devices by default of having an Android device - they are restricted by the limitations of the software, their own ability to modify the software, their own knowledge of what's available, and the whims of developers.
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Old 20th December 2012, 08:06 AM   #158
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I don't need freedom, so Android fans should STFU about it !
*puts hands over ears*

Seriously, you should stop, because it really looks like you are trolling now.
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Old 20th December 2012, 08:20 AM   #159
SatansMaleVoiceChoir
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
I don't need freedom, so Android fans should STFU about it !
*puts hands over ears*
Where have I said that?

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Seriously, you should stop, because it really looks like you are trolling now.
If you don't like what I'm saying, you REALLY DO have the freedom to stop reading this thread. Don't let the door hit you in the backside on the way out...
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Old 20th December 2012, 10:39 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by SatansMaleVoiceChoir View Post
That is PRECISELY what I am getting at. Freedom to do something which I have no intention of doing/couldn't do/don't even know exists is not freedom as far as I am concerned; what is the difference between not doing something because someone else forbids it, and not doing something because I have no intention, or doing it is of no value to me? I was never going to do it anyway. I may as well say iOS means freedom because I am free to Jailbreak it then do absolutely anything with it I want; that freedom exists, even though I don't want to use it and have no intention of using it.
So I guess you don't support rights for any group you're not part of? If that's not what you're saying please clarify.

Quote:
All Android users are not free to do 'anything' they like on their Android devices by default of having an Android device - they are restricted by the limitations of the software, their own ability to modify the software, their own knowledge of what's available, and the whims of developers.
And everyone is restricted by The Laws of Physics so there's no such thing as freedom?
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