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#41 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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You're right.
Fortunately these things are not the norm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster This was (link above) the worst school disaster in the countries history. Suggestions as to what should be done to prevent it from happening again? |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#42 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,141
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Another suggestion all would be gun owning families have to take a psychriatric and medical test before being allowed a licence at their own cost.
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#43 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,349
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How much training are you proposing for your cadre of armed school staff? How often would he have to retrain and practice?
How often would you have 'School massacre Drills' and what would they include? What stops an intruder shooting the trained teacher before he gets his gun out of his safe and ready? |
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#44 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,357
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Solutions? I don't know at all. I think the focus on school building security just gives people a false sense of security, because like I said, there's still the playground (or public parks, swimming pools, etc.). Banning guns would be futile at this point, since there are so many available.
The best I can come up with at the moment is to pay attention when people make threats. I don't know yet whether this guy spilled any of his plan ahead of time, but a lot of them seem to. How can we respond when someone starts talking about that? |
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#45 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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You're exactly right. There's nothing really wrong with a sense of security when the risk is exceedingly low (it also deters all but the highly motivated). Most reactive ideas are only to make people feel good that they are "doing something" but, really are of no practical use.
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#46 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,357
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That's another thing. Focusing on screening the guy buyer is another false sense of security. Nancy Lanza was the buyer, but it was her son who killed.
And, someone can pass psych screens at one point in their life and lose it later. We just had 3 bodies found here locally -- a guy shot his wife, the kid they were guardians of, and himself. He'd been buying guns for years -- maybe he was fine a few years ago! But obviously something went wrong lately. |
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#47 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,357
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#48 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,214
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"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk. |
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#49 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 711
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Take a look at Europe.
We have plenty of crazies here but being much harder to find guns when they have a fit they have to resort to katanas, axes, knives... so the death toll is much much lower. (see the wikipedia list of school shootings in the US and other countryes... says all) So perhaps the solution is to begin to undestand that as society becomes more civilised, guns are going to become obsolete, little by little, so it wouldn´t be such a bad idea to start limiting their availability, more control etc. Seriously, your idea of getting more guns in the classroom sounds quite crazy from my (gun free) perspective. |
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#50 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#51 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: St. Louis, Mo.
Posts: 12,177
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All the above illustrates just how sticky the question becomes. Arm teachers? This is being seriously proposed on numerous levels... Even our local county police dept. has made some noises in this regard.
Police, military, security people... All go into their respective jobs knowing that armed confrontation is a possibility. Elementary-school teachers? Not so much. There's a mind-set involved. I would hazard that most in the teaching professions don't have it. Improved school-building security? Might help... Evidently this kid simply shot his way through a glass door. Good hardware and access control might help... But then there is always the playground, or the time of day when the kids get out of school and are picked up... Mental health screening prior to purchasing a weapon? In many cases, these shootings are not committed by people who are detectably demented, or they simply went bad AFTER legally obtaining weapons. Remember, a lot of these folks are not "insane"; rather, they "snap" after a long period of building frustration, depression, and whatever. |
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#52 |
Guest
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 188
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Surround American schools with giant circular magnets so it's impossible to enter the building with any metal on your person.
The more persistent child-murderers will end up stuck to the magnet and will only be able to shoot directly up or directly down. Ban skydiving in these areas. |
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#53 |
AI-EE-YAH!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,354
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I dont know if thebprincipal would have been able to unlock a vault in time. If his first target was her without warning, then no. If she heard shooting first, then yes possibly. Either way, what harm would it cause for her to have the ability to defend herself, or the other teachers at the least being able to keep their kids in the classroom and defend them if needed?
Regardless, i like the idea of retired leos and military personnel volunteering their time to help with security. |
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken |
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#54 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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We might add to this thread. What's being done to protect everyone from suicide bombers. The occurrence is more frequent. I think the split is relevant.
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#55 |
... and your little dog too.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,188
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Any solution for keeping children safer in schools that puts the preservation of gun ownership rights as its highest priority should be immediately rejected as unserious.
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#56 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 711
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It´s not like an armed militia would stand a chance against the ultra technological US Army, would it?
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#57 |
... and your little dog too.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,188
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#58 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#59 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#60 |
AI-EE-YAH!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,354
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I dont have a plan for the exact logistics. I was mainlynproposing the idea. And what is with people presenting these POINTLESS scenarios about "well what if he shoots the teacher before he gets to his gun!!!!!omg you didnt think o that did you?!?!? Man am i clever!" Well the obvious answer to that is the teacher will be dead and unable to do anything. What is more likely is that a teacher would hear the shooting and have plenty of time to open a safe. Its not like a shooter can be in every classroom all at once. Schools are pretty big places you know...
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken |
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#61 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,357
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Agreed. The problem is that schools have a limited budget. There are plenty that don't even maintain a school nurse. I'd hate to see that position cut out in favor of armed guards.
Yes. But the problem is there are already millions of guns privately owned in America. And these shooters tend to plan things out in advance, so they'd have plenty of time to find an illegal way to obtain one of the many, many guns that are out there. Here's my problem with that. While the teacher is unlocking her gun safe and expertly following her hard-core training in taking down a madman, who's watching the kids? One of the things I've been struck with is what a good job this school did of protecting the students. The principal turning on the intercom, teachers locking doors & hiding children, keeping them calm & quiet. You've said to train the kids to lie on the floor -- that's great, but with 6 year olds they still need an adult to remain with them. If the teacher is racing down the hall to shoot it out with the bad guy, the kids will freak out and forget their safety precautions. I'd rather have teachers teach. |
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#62 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,349
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Arming ex cops and vets and putting htem on patrol will just see them as the first target unless you are considering putting a number of them in each school so they can protect each other.
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#63 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,680
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The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping. |
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#64 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#65 |
Confusion Reactor
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 25,141
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I'm not really certain I understand the idea that the solution to this problem is adding more guns. In a world where no do-gooder ever misses and hits an innocent, it'd work. Otherwise, nah.
*Reports say the teacher was shot in the shoulder and went down as she was firing. Two bullets found a mark among her students.* |
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#66 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,620
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First problem:
Humans have crappy situational awareness and don't know it. Cops spend years training to overcome this and their skills are perishable if they don't retrain. Soldiers, outside of a few elite units, are only slightly better than average and far worse than a cop at this. Example of where the situational awareness breaks down? Ask Pat Tillman's family about it. Second problem: Arming non-professionals with guns to protect kids is a non-starter. We already cannot afford to pay teachers what they are worth. Nobody is going to come up with the money to teach them to be competent marksmen in a crisis. The best training you could give the teachers would be to evacuate the building by any means necessary. If you want to spend real money to make things safer start redesigning the schools so that every classroom has two exits that don't open into the same hallway. |
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Doubt world tour locations: Detroit, Mexico, Detroit, Mexico.... Repeat for all of 2017 except when on vacation. |
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#67 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,101
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#68 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Mazes of Menace
Posts: 8,657
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What's outrageous is that the problem is absurdly simple (even if its solution is not).
Like the fire combustion triangle there are three factors which, if one were absent, would mean no mass shooting: 1) availability of weapons; 2) group of potential victims; 3) malevolent perpetrator. |
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He bade me take any rug in the house. |
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#69 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,875
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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#70 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 41,532
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#71 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 41,532
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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#72 |
Cythraul Enfys
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,086
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At the school I was teaching at (and all I have been to in my county) the rear (external access) doors to all buildings were kept locked and the classroom doors are all kept locked. The doors each have an app. 2 x 3 foot w/wire criss/crossed in it pane of resistant glass. In my room, absent guns or such naughty things , there was always a 500 ml flask or three of some interesting chemicals out for "demonstration purposes" and we were lucky as we had a back door that led to another classroom if a breach occured. Not that the school heads thought of it, but our room had tables designed to be science resistant - they would not be easily breached by the fire of normally carried "assault) rifles. and the door/entry design allowed for an initial protected assault on the attacker upon entrance in a break through.
I liked my room!!! |
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There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!! |
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#73 |
Homo Skepticalis
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,999
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Even though some of these ideas might work, there is still the question of how it gets paid for. Only the most affluent school districts would be able to afford some of the things proposed. So we allow the poor kids to remain vulnerable? I wonder if the gun owners would be willing to pay additional tax on new guns, plus a recurring annual tax or license fee on existing guns to fund these measures. The current 11% Federal tax is less than that for cigarettes and alcohol. Since all of these proposals are only so gun owners can keep their guns, I assume they have no problem paying for all this additional security, right?
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We have reached a point in time where reality and satire have intersected and now you can't tell the difference. -- Lewis Black There is a cult of ignorance . . . nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge. -- Isaac Asimov |
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#74 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,998
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What if, instead of requiring firearms and combat training for people who want to be schoolteachers, we require firearms and combat training for people who want to buy a handgun for self-defense? And what if we also require people who purchase guns to be trained in the proper and safe storage of said guns in order to prevent them from being stolen and used to commit mass murder?
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Warning. If you don't want to see your treasured "evidence" completely pwned in public, don't show it to the posters at JREF. - Rolfe |
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#75 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,911
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#76 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#77 |
Graduate Poster
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#78 |
AI-EE-YAH!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,354
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken |
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#79 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,357
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So we build walls around playgrounds or something? Again, budget is an issue. And again, that just means that the next mass murderer just shifts his plan to kill kids to a park, zoo, etc.
The guy planned this out. If there had been bullet-proof glass, he would have altered his plans accordingly. If you have a) people who want to commit mass murder, and b) easily available weapons, then there is no beefed-up security level that will protect against it. I don't see how we can make weapons less available, considering how saturated the country is with them. And I don't believe there are any realistic, affordable security levels that will make someone intent on mass murder give up & decide not to do it after all; they will just plan around them. I really don't know the ideal answer, but feel-good measures that cost a bundle and don't actually help are not the answer. |
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#80 |
AI-EE-YAH!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,354
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It's not just "Adding more guns". It is a bit dishonest to phrase it that way. Its not like I am advocating tossing a pile of guns into the school and saying 'Defend yourselves!". I am advocating giving a few select individuals the ability to defend themselves and the kids should such an awful scenario arrise. But to be honest, I like the idea of retired LEOs and military vets volunteering their time to serve their community by helping out with security at their local schools.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken |
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