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Old 18th December 2012, 10:46 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by iknownothing View Post

I don't see how we can make weapons less available, considering how saturated the country is with them. And I don't believe there are any realistic, affordable security levels that will make someone intent on mass murder give up & decide not to do it after all; they will just plan around them. I really don't know the ideal answer, but feel-good measures that cost a bundle and don't actually help are not the answer.
And the nail on the head award goes to..................

This is a form of terrorism. As we all know, the only way to prevent it is to stop it in the planning stage or before the plan goes into effect. This happens more times then are reported. How we do this is not by hardening ever possible target. Diligence and awareness.
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Old 18th December 2012, 10:55 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
And the nail on the head award goes to..................

This is a form of terrorism. As we all know, the only way to prevent it is to stop it in the planning stage or before the plan goes into effect. This happens more times then are reported. How we do this is not by hardening ever possible target. Diligence and awareness.
That sounds great. Buzz words like "Diligence and awareness" is really going to stop the mass shootings. While I believe greatly in those two things, I think the difficulty of identifying someone who is capable of mass murder is beyond our reach. Does that mean we should not make steps towards attempting their identification? No, of course not. But I still believe that some form of additional security at a school would greatly help reduce the number of deaths in a school shooting.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 11:06 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
That sounds great. Buzz words like "Diligence and awareness" is really going to stop the mass shootings. While I believe greatly in those two things, I think the difficulty of identifying someone who is capable of mass murder is beyond our reach. Does that mean we should not make steps towards attempting their identification? No, of course not. But I still believe that some form of additional security at a school would greatly help reduce the number of deaths in a school shooting.
You should add, "in the unlikely event one should ever happen".

Again. It's cost vs risk. The risk is extremely low with a very high cost (for most "solutions"). Cold but, true. Most terror busts are from people noticing things are just not right and reporting them. Low cost for law enforcement to check on what people think are potentials, if they only reported them (not usually the case until after the fact in these cases).
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Old 18th December 2012, 11:13 AM   #84
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This thread highlights the the inherent dishonesty that the anti-gun movement resorts to whenever there is an attempt at a serious discussion that does include complete disarmament.

Shooters choose soft targets. This fact has become apparent. If a few well-trained individuals in schools had access to weapons, the impression of schools being soft targets would be reduced or eliminated. These weapons do not need to locked in some sort of fort knox type vault. A locked, reinforced drawer would suffice for daytime storage.

I'm disappointed by the complete lack of candor some individuals on the antigun side of this discussion are showing.

Just listened to NPR and they kept talking about assault weapons. What should have happened is that EVERY single time someone mentioned "assault weapons" they would take 2 minutes to explain that assault weapon is an intentionally ambiguous phrase meant to evoke connections to assault rifles. Assault rifles have not been used in these tragedies and are fully regulated already.

What they are really pushing for is an "Looks like an assault rifle" ban. Which is ridiculous. It is as if we tried to push out an "looks like a pitbull" ban, and anything with a tail qualified.
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Old 18th December 2012, 11:19 AM   #85
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The problem with the OP is the gain does not repay the labour.
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Old 18th December 2012, 11:20 AM   #86
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This thread highlights the the inherent dishonesty that the anti-gun movement resorts to whenever there is an attempt at a serious discussion that does include complete disarmament.

Shooters choose soft targets. This fact has become apparent. If a few well-trained individuals in schools had access to weapons, the impression of schools being soft targets would be reduced or eliminated. These weapons do not need to locked in some sort of fort knox type vault. A locked, reinforced drawer would suffice for daytime storage.

I'm disappointed by the complete lack of candor some individuals on the antigun side of this discussion are showing.

Just listened to NPR and they kept talking about assault weapons. What should have happened is that EVERY single time someone mentioned "assault weapons" they would take 2 minutes to explain that assault weapon is an intentionally ambiguous phrase meant to evoke connections to assault rifles. Assault rifles have not been used in these tragedies and are fully regulated already.

What they are really pushing for is an "Looks like an assault rifle" ban. Which is ridiculous. It is as if we tried to push out an "looks like a pitbull" ban, and anything with a tail qualified.
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Old 18th December 2012, 11:21 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by seycyrus View Post
This thread highlights the the inherent dishonesty that the anti-gun movement resorts to whenever there is an attempt at a serious discussion that does include complete disarmament.

Shooters choose soft targets. This fact has become apparent. If a few well-trained individuals in schools had access to weapons, the impression of schools being soft targets would be reduced or eliminated. These weapons do not need to locked in some sort of fort knox type vault. A locked, reinforced drawer would suffice for daytime storage.

I'm disappointed by the complete lack of candor some individuals on the antigun side of this discussion are showing.

Just listened to NPR and they kept talking about assault weapons. What should have happened is that EVERY single time someone mentioned "assault weapons" they would take 2 minutes to explain that assault weapon is an intentionally ambiguous phrase meant to evoke connections to assault rifles. Assault rifles have not been used in these tragedies and are fully regulated already.

What they are really pushing for is an "Looks like an assault rifle" ban. Which is ridiculous. It is as if we tried to push out an "looks like a pitbull" ban, and anything with a tail qualified.
Very well put. The anti gun nutter crowd always likes to spin these types of discussions as if people like myself are advocating a "Wild West" style environment. They also like to propose that there is no possible way that an armed individual in a school could make a bit of difference, and that every bullet they would shoot would hit an innocent bystander. It's just speaking from ignorance, but no solution to the problem is going to be found if individuals on both sides of the argument are not rational and honest.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 11:28 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Very well put. The anti gun nutter crowd always likes to spin these types of discussions as if people like myself are advocating a "Wild West" style environment. They also like to propose that there is no possible way that an armed individual in a school could make a bit of difference,
Just out of curiosity. Did you know I'm a gun owner (several in-fact).

Just thought I'd mention it because your replies to me seem to be along the lines of thinking I'm anti-gun.
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Old 18th December 2012, 11:32 AM   #89
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Gun owner here also.
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Old 18th December 2012, 11:34 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Just out of curiosity. Did you know I'm a gun owner (several in-fact).

Just thought I'd mention it because your replies to me seem to be along the lines of thinking I'm anti-gun.
Just went back and re-read some of my replies to you. I think I have pretty much stuck to responding strictly to what you said in those posts. My post that you quoted is mainly referring to some of the other posters who have been advocating some of the more dishonest stuff. I don't think you are an anti gun nutter, and you seem to be responding with useful stuff, and I agree that more passive security measures should be put in place.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 11:39 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by iknownothing View Post
Gun owner here also.
Noted. And I agree that perhaps a teacher leaving the kids unattended in the classrooms to pursue an active shooter would not be the best option. Being able to quickly lock a sturdy door in the classroom would be much more effective. I think maybe some of the administration types having the ability to react to an active shooter would be a bit more reasonable, but I still see nothing wrong with giving a teach the option to keep a gun at their desk very securely locked up, in the event they are unable to secure their door.

But I am much more interested in the idea of retired LEOs or military vets volunteering their time to assist with security at schools within their community. I also know that a lot of schools these days have police officers that do actually work at the school full time, which I think is a great idea for not only the mass shooting scenario, but for other events that take place within a school. Sadly, this was not the case at the elementary school
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 11:47 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Arming ex cops and vets and putting htem on patrol will just see them as the first target unless you are considering putting a number of them in each school so they can protect each other.
This, also. Having an armed guard would only be useful if the killer does not alter his behavior in response to the presence of a guard.
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Old 18th December 2012, 11:49 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Just went back and re-read some of my replies to you. I think I have pretty much stuck to responding strictly to what you said in those posts. My post that you quoted is mainly referring to some of the other posters who have been advocating some of the more dishonest stuff. I don't think you are an anti gun nutter, and you seem to be responding with useful stuff, and I agree that more passive security measures should be put in place.
I just thought I'd make sure you knew this.

I don't believe that arming anyone at the school is necessary and could possibly pose a risk if the attacker knew this person to be a threat. To the determined attacker the response would be bring more fire power and neutralize the threat. We're not going to be able to stop this type of attack once it is underway. Unless we send our kids to school in a fort.
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Old 18th December 2012, 11:56 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
I just thought I'd make sure you knew this.

I don't believe that arming anyone at the school is necessary and could possibly pose a risk if the attacker knew this person to be a threat. To the determined attacker the response would be bring more fire power and neutralize the threat. We're not going to be able to stop this type of attack once it is underway. Unless we send our kids to school in a fort.
See this is where I disagree. I think that individuals armed in a school would be mainly a positive. I don't see how you can determine without a shadow of a doubt that "We're not going to be able to stop this type of attack once it is underway." I don't see how you can accurately make such an assumption. Seems that people here are advocating that if someone was armed within the school, the attacker would have some sort of GPS tracking device on that person and be able to immediately identify them out of all those people. How do you propose that an attacker would be able to effectively maneuver throughout the school undetected and be able to neutralize the security personnel on duty without being first detected? AND making it through the passive security measures that we discussed?
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:02 PM   #95
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Pop quiz.

Bang, bang, you hear shots down the hallway. You run over and lock your office door and go back behind your desk. You look out your fifth floor window and decide jumping is not a good idea.

Bang, Bang, the shots are getting closer. You get on your cell phone and dial 911.

The 911 operator is asking; “what does the gunman look like?”

“I am in my locked office!” you scream.

Someone tries the doorknob on your door. Then several shots go through the door near the lock. Someone is kicking at the door and it is giving way.

911: “Are you sure its gunshots?”

You: “#@*&!”

You open your desk drawer and find: (pick one)

1. An olive branch.
2. A ceramic unicorn incense burner where the scented smoke comes out it’s a$$.
3. An autograph photo of Nancy Pelosi.
4. A white flag (made in France).
5. A loaded Colt 1911 .45 acp with two spare loaded magazines. (Prefer a Kimber myself)

BTW: You have ten seconds.
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:03 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
See this is where I disagree. I think that individuals armed in a school would be mainly a positive. I don't see how you can determine without a shadow of a doubt that "We're not going to be able to stop this type of attack once it is underway." I don't see how you can accurately make such an assumption. Seems that people here are advocating that if someone was armed within the school, the attacker would have some sort of GPS tracking device on that person and be able to immediately identify them out of all those people. How do you propose that an attacker would be able to effectively maneuver throughout the school undetected and be able to neutralize the security personnel on duty without being first detected? AND making it through the passive security measures that we discussed?
I don't think you'd have to know where this person was. Just the fact that you know that you are going to meet resistance is enough (for the truly determined). I doubt these plans would be secret. Anyone looking to do this kind of carnage is going to plan for this resistance. I believe having them there is an escalation, not a determent (for the determined attacker).

We can disagree on this but, I don't think the benefit outweighs the risk.
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:10 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
I don't think you'd have to know where this person was. Just the fact that you know that you are going to meet resistance is enough (for the truly determined). I doubt these plans would be secret. Anyone looking to do this kind of carnage is going to plan for this resistance. I believe having them there is an escalation, not a determent (for the determined attacker).

We can disagree on this but, I don't think the benefit outweighs the risk.
I know we are going to disagree, but how do you propose it is an escalation? There are two courses of action there. 1, the gunmen can roam about the school at free will mowing down any and everyone he sees without a single bit of resistance, knowing that everyone is helpless. 2, there is actually someone there to offer resistance and the ability to defend others, slowing or if all goes as planned, completely stopping the attacker.

Even if he decides to up his weaponry in response to anticipated security, whether is be a pistol or semi automatic rifle, the mass killing will happen regardless if there was no one there to defend others. If there was in fact someone there to offer a defense, at least it is a fighting chance to avoid a complete massacre.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:11 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by DDWW View Post
Pop quiz.

Bang, bang, you hear shots down the hallway. You run over and lock your office door and go back behind your desk. You look out your fifth floor window and decide jumping is not a good idea.

Bang, Bang, the shots are getting closer. You get on your cell phone and dial 911.

The 911 operator is asking; “what does the gunman look like?”

“I am in my locked office!” you scream.

Someone tries the doorknob on your door. Then several shots go through the door near the lock. Someone is kicking at the door and it is giving way.

911: “Are you sure its gunshots?”

You: “#@*&!”

You open your desk drawer and find: (pick one)

1. An olive branch.
2. A ceramic unicorn incense burner where the scented smoke comes out it’s a$$.
3. An autograph photo of Nancy Pelosi.
4. A white flag (made in France).
5. A loaded Colt 1911 .45 acp with two spare loaded magazines. (Prefer a Kimber myself)

BTW: You have ten seconds.
Can I have a Glock .45 in my drawer?
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:19 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
I know we are going to disagree, but how do you propose it is an escalation? There are two courses of action there. 1, the gunmen can roam about the school at free will mowing down any and everyone he sees without a single bit of resistance, knowing that everyone is helpless. 2, there is actually someone there to offer resistance and the ability to defend others, slowing or if all goes as planned, completely stopping the attacker.

Even if he decides to up his weaponry in response to anticipated security, whether is be a pistol or semi automatic rifle, the mass killing will happen regardless if there was no one there to defend others. If there was in fact someone there to offer a defense, at least it is a fighting chance to avoid a complete massacre.
This is where making it harder to get in comes into play. This buys time for law enforcement to be notified and occupants to further secure the building (lock more doors restricting movement buying more time). Intrusion resistant glass is cheap and really effective. It's all about not letting him/her (lets not be sexist) roam the halls.
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:19 PM   #100
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In a hypothetical scenario imagine we improve the security of every single school. We install bullet proof this and that, arm some selected and highly trained teachers, come up with a very high tech solution that's 100% infallible like armed AI drones or something, whatever. Lets take it as read that no schoolkid is ever in danger from a shooting ever again.

Now what.

Well as your average spree killing **** wants to live long enough to at least cause their share of carnage, so they stop targeting schools, and now will go to the nearest shopping centre/park/next easiest target on the list.

This 'solution' just moves the problem somewhere else. Are the lives of 20 people at a shopping centre worth less than the lives of 20 school children?

Originally Posted by commandlinegamer View Post
there are three factors which, if one were absent, would mean no mass shooting:

1) availability of weapons;
2) group of potential victims;
3) malevolent perpetrator.
I still can't get my head around the idea that some peoples proposed solution is to make more weapons available.

Yes if we could parachute in a skilled marksman into these situations, arm him appropriately, and give him a clear shot at the perp then all of these spree killings would be stopped in their tracks. It's not practical to arm and train more of the population to confront killers, in fact doing so increases the number of people who have;
weapons available to them, easy access to potential victims, and the possibility of having some kind of future mental breakdown and snapping and becoming the latest malevolent perpetrator.

The most practical way to reduce the number of spree killings and reduce the amount of damage done at each one, remains to reduce the availability of weapons.
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:21 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
So what is the answer? I still don't know, but I have an absolutely OUTRAGEOUS idea that will upset quite a bit of people on this forum, but I am going to throw it out there anyways. What if instead of being completely helpless in a school shooting scenario we prepared the teachers/faculty to defend themselves? What if, and this is a very big hypothetical, in the elementary school in Connecticut there were about 5 or so teachers/faculty members who had been trained in the use of firearms and also trained in reacting to an active shooter scenario? And also, what if each of these teachers/faculty members had a vault in their classroom with either a shotgun or a handgun inside?

Absolute LUNACY, I know, but I think it is still worth looking in to. Given the surprising amount of ignorance about guns in our country, this will probably never happen. Now anti gun nutters, let me go ahead and address some of your comments before you post them, because I know they are coming. NO, the guns do not just start going off all of a sudden killing everyone once they get inside of a school. Also no, the teachers are not going to shoot a bunch of kids instead of the shooter if such a scenario occurs (Hence the training). Ok everyone, go ahead and pile on.
Cost/benefit analysis says no. Firstly what you propose would cost a lot of money in terms of training costs and equipment. There are a lot schools out there so even 5 guns per school is a fair bit of cash. But that's small change compared to the whole training required. Realistically if you are going to require teachers to carry guns around they are really going to have to know how to use them and that requires a proper training and certification process with regular refresher courses. Expensive.

On the other had the benfit is pretty low. Such attacks are rare so the number of lives you are going to save is limited. Secondly the reality is that armed teachers probably won't make much difference against a determined attacker. Remeber teachers are there to teach. They aren't expecting an attacker to come through the door. So even if the attacker hits one of the classrooms with an armed teacher in it and doesn't just shoot the teacher first by the time the teacher has time to react significant damage will already have been done. More likely the attacker will hit a class with an unarmed teacher and you are going to lose the class before anyone else can get to the area.

This assumes of course that attackers don't just switch tactics. School got an outside play area? Lets see how much your pistols and shotguns are worth against an attacker with a rifle at range.

So on a practical level you are better off spending the money on improving school bus safety.
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:26 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Can I have a Glock .45 in my drawer?
Yes, Not a Glock fan myself but would use it if needed with confidence.


BTW: Everyone esle; The door was just kicked in. You now have 5 seconds.
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:30 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by DDWW View Post
Yes, Not a Glock fan myself but would use it if needed with confidence.


BTW: Everyone esle; The door was just kicked in. You now have 5 seconds.
School doors (in schools made in the last 25 years) are fire doors and you are not going to kick them in (just saying).
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:34 PM   #104
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It's an exceedingly unlikely scenario. We can't address this problem properly with no sense of proportion, and having armed faculty and handy loaded weapons in the school seems counter-intuitive.
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:35 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
School doors (in schools made in the last 25 years) are fire doors and you are not going to kick them in (just saying).
That's good. Can they be locked from the inside? I would expect so.
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:37 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
It's an exceedingly unlikely scenario.
Answer; Too late; you just died. Sorry.
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:39 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by DDWW View Post
That's good. Can they be locked from the inside? I would expect so.
Most yes (this is not code but is usually the case). For parents that go to "meet the teacher" days, notice the metal door frames on classroom doors, this is for fire but, makes them almost impossible to kick in.
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:41 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by DDWW View Post
BTW: Everyone esle; The door was just kicked in. You now have 5 seconds.
Am I allowed to save the game at this point?

When the gunman breaks through the door is this on the highest difficulty setting where he's wearing a vest and holding a 6 year old in front of him?

Or easy mode where his gun jams just as he levels it at me giving me an extra few seconds, and I have auto aim turned on and can dispatch him with 1 clean headshot?
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:41 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
Cost/benefit analysis says no. Firstly what you propose would cost a lot of money in terms of training costs and equipment. There are a lot schools out there so even 5 guns per school is a fair bit of cash. But that's small change compared to the whole training required. Realistically if you are going to require teachers to carry guns around they are really going to have to know how to use them and that requires a proper training and certification process with regular refresher courses. Expensive.

On the other had the benfit is pretty low. Such attacks are rare so the number of lives you are going to save is limited. Secondly the reality is that armed teachers probably won't make much difference against a determined attacker. Remeber teachers are there to teach. They aren't expecting an attacker to come through the door. So even if the attacker hits one of the classrooms with an armed teacher in it and doesn't just shoot the teacher first by the time the teacher has time to react significant damage will already have been done. More likely the attacker will hit a class with an unarmed teacher and you are going to lose the class before anyone else can get to the area.

This assumes of course that attackers don't just switch tactics. School got an outside play area? Lets see how much your pistols and shotguns are worth against an attacker with a rifle at range.

So on a practical level you are better off spending the money on improving school bus safety.
All are valid points to take into consideration. What do you propose instead? Also, what do you think of volunteer LEOs/Retired military vets volunteering their time at schools?
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:43 PM   #110
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Originally posted by DDWW: "Answer; Too late; you just died. Sorry."



Cute. Again, emotionally driven scare tactics aren't going to solve the problem.

Of course, it depends on which problem we want to solve; if the problem is having someone who can kill the (extremely unlikely to be there in the first place) nutjob quickly and efficiently boom boom, having more guns could be the answer but there are obvious problems with outcomes, implementation.

If we're talking about solving the problem of a (extremely unlikely to be there in the first place)nutjob even wanting to do such a thing, and that's where I suspect the problem really needs to be addressed, then it's a societal thing more guns certainly won't solve.

In my opinion.
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:47 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
what do you think of volunteer LEOs/Retired military vets volunteering their time at schools?
tbh I think that idea has some merit. A reasonable response to school shootings is to try to improve security at schools where it is practical, as well as looking at sensible ways of improving gun laws.
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:48 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by DDWW View Post
Answer; Too late; you just died. Sorry.
Ah, rational reasoning and calm discourse.

The problem with the proposed solution is that crazy is a constant. If every school in America had several armed individuals on hand at all times, that is a lot of humans with access to weapons. And one thing we know about humans - some of them are going to snap. A small but nonzero number of the authority figures we are counting on in this solution will one day take out that weapon and turn it on themselves and coworkers. This is a proposed solution to the murder of 20 kids in once go which would lead to the death of unknown numbers of others, just in smaller batches.
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:49 PM   #113
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It's pretty ridiculous that we are entertaining an unending game of "what ifs". Can both sides play?
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:50 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Seems that people here are advocating that if someone was armed within the school, the attacker would have some sort of GPS tracking device on that person and be able to immediately identify them out of all those people. How do you propose that an attacker would be able to effectively maneuver throughout the school undetected and be able to neutralize the security personnel on duty without being first detected? AND making it through the passive security measures that we discussed?
Is the shooter a current or former student of the school? Then he knows that the guard starts the morning walking down hallway X, or always has to use the restroom at 10:00, etc. If it's not a student, then either by doing a little research (chat up a current student, or read the school's website which boasts an armed guard at the main entrance, etc.) or by creating a diversion to draw the guard out and shoot him from a hiding place. Remember that the shooter has the luxury of time and planning, and all the guard can do is react.
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:52 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
Originally posted by DDWW: "Answer; Too late; you just died. Sorry."



Cute. Again, emotionally driven scare tactics aren't going to solve the problem.

Of course, it depends on which problem we want to solve; if the problem is having someone who can kill the (extremely unlikely to be there in the first place) nutjob quickly and efficiently boom boom, having more guns could be the answer but there are obvious problems with outcomes, implementation.

If we're talking about solving the problem of a (extremely unlikely to be there in the first place)nutjob even wanting to do such a thing, and that's where I suspect the problem really needs to be addressed, then it's a societal thing more guns certainly won't solve.

In my opinion.
CNN is covering your funeral. Several neighbors are saying what a nice person you were. Tomorrow they are burying the 4 people killed after he left your office. So sad. Let's have a moment of silence.

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Old 18th December 2012, 12:53 PM   #116
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D'oh! Now you've got me considering my mortality! Now I'm frightened that the very unlikely will happen and I'm going to go out and buy myself a handgun and get a Concealed Carry permit never.
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Old 18th December 2012, 12:58 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
All are valid points to take into consideration. What do you propose instead?
That would really depend on your budget. I also don't have the statistics on various risk factors to hand (other than the claim that ~800 school-aged children are killed in motor vehicle crashes during normal school travel hours).


There's also the issue that my backround here is health and safety in an industrial enviroment where 1 death every 20 years is considered an acceptable risk.

Quote:
Also, what do you think of volunteer LEOs/Retired military vets volunteering their time at schools?
Criminal background checks on that lot would again be expensive and to be honest you'd have to shove them through the same certification and training scheme as teacher as well as additional dealing with being in a school stuff. So there is a reasonable chance you would end up spending even more.
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Old 18th December 2012, 01:01 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by iknownothing View Post
Is the shooter a current or former student of the school? ...
In my what if scenario, the shooter knows that there is at least one armed responder at the school, and chooses an easier target.
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Old 18th December 2012, 01:03 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by DDWW View Post
CNN is covering your funeral. Several neighbors are saying what a nice person you were. Tomorrow they are burying the 4 people killed after he left your office. So sad. Let's have a moment of silence.
Yeah you might be chosing the wrong group to try this on. If was particularly worried about very unlikely death senarious I wouldn't be doing the job I do (which provides a large number of mearly fairly unlikely death senarios). Of course I won't get TV coverage of my funeral but on the other hand me and anyone else killed in the incerdent are likely to get some coverage in the HSE writeup.

Last edited by geni; 18th December 2012 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 18th December 2012, 01:03 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
Am I allowed to save the game at this point?

When the gunman breaks through the door is this on the highest difficulty setting where he's wearing a vest and holding a 6 year old in front of him?

Or easy mode where his gun jams just as he levels it at me giving me an extra few seconds, and I have auto aim turned on and can dispatch him with 1 clean headshot?
Pfff. If you played action games at all you'd know that doors are impervious to gunshots, chainsaws, hammer drills, explosives and vehicles of all kinds. To unlock a door you need a key!
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