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#161 |
Raccoon Death Squad Leader
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,990
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I'm not sure this is such a good idea. I don't want to have a bunch of out-of-shape Call of Duty players learning more about military tactics, marching around my streets and getting in the way of professional law enforcement.
That being said, I think I would add something that would make purchasing ammunition harder to do and much more expensive. And to be totally transparent, I'm one of those that think the 2nd Amendment was a horrible idea as written, but I understand that it's here to stay and I'm in the minority. What we need is smart legislation that will do something to mitigate our gun problem. |
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"Our history is in part a battle to the death of inadequate myths" - Carl Sagan Even Mother TeresaWP doubted. |
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#162 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 11,089
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#163 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,264
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Why not? And I don't see why they'd be getting in the way of local law enforcement, or necessarily marching the streets. Then again, we probably all have different ideas of what you'd do at a militia muster. There would have to be something for everyone, from the guy who can barely walk to the guy who's a fit and competent hunter.
I still like the idea of having a recurrent licencing/registration of some kind, with reasonable fees, and attendance of your militia/muster granting you a waiver of most or all of those fees. Unfortunately most of the ideas in this direction don't seem to be very useful as far as actual safety outcomes. In the USA, in the foreseeable future, we're so saturated with weapons and ammo that trying to keep guns/ammo rare via price or make/model restrictions is not likely to 'work' where 'work' means fewer deadly incidents. |
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#164 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,587
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Self defence and protection from tyranny. Yes I did, you know why.
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I have presented evidence for that from the number of deaths compared to other countries and the reasons why Americans feel the need for guns. My straight forward conclusion is US gun culture is a fail. Rather than deal with the evidence you prefer your own verbiage and rhetoric, which I do not find convincing in one bit. |
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#165 |
Raccoon Death Squad Leader
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,990
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I just think that having organized militias that are outside of a chain of command is a bad idea. I'm not sure that the police would like to see it, either. You see these self-styled "militias" on TV doing everything from patrolling our border with Mexico to rehearsing "saving" people during hurricanes. They're going to end up shooting one another or an innocent civilian and then it gets real scary. Save the gun play and the law enforcement for the professionals. If they are afraid of the evil government and the impending FEMA death camps, fine, keep their guns locked up at home and ready to use when the black helicopters start to fly. Just don't bring it on the streets.
I understand your point on the ammo. I guess I would respond that ammo ages and, eventually, it degrades to such an extent that it needs replacing. At that time, someone is going to need to purchase new ammunition. And if it is limited and sold at a premium, only those that are serious about their hobby can afford it and then only in smaller quantities. I think a larger problem is that you can buy ammo from all kinds of sources, including the internet, and that makes it very hard for it monitor and limit. I believe the Aurora shooter had purchased his ammo from many sources. |
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"Our history is in part a battle to the death of inadequate myths" - Carl Sagan Even Mother TeresaWP doubted. |
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#166 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,961
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#167 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,264
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Hm. I guess I'm really thinking of something more along the lines of a meet and greet with some gun safety/maintenance training/reminders optional target shooting. The point being to get out, meet other owners in the community, get some contact between the most and least responsible owners so some good habits can rub off, that kind of thing.
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#168 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 8,970
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Ammo that is made with the proper quality control and stored in a cool dry place will last decades with little or no degradation in performance. Waiting for the ammo supply to go away will be like waiting for the supply of booze or drugs to go away if they are prohibited.
Brass can be reloaded many times. Bullets are easy to cast or turn from bar stock. I can make my own brass casings on my hobby lathe. The hardest part is the primer, but I can make it if I can't buy them. If you can bake a cake or assemble a computer from parts, you can probably make your own ammo. I think the people who were aghast at the 6000 rounds the Aurora shooter bought are naive. 6000 rounds is nothing to the average shooting enthusiast who shoots on a regular basis. When I buy 22lr, it is by the case (5000), when I buy powder, it is usually in 32 to 48 pound lots, primers by the 5000 and I am considered a light weight gun nut. Buying in quanity is the smart thing to do as long as you are able to store it safely. Just like going to Costco or Sam's Club for food and other stuff. Unless your storage area is a fire hazard, chances are it is safe to store ammo there. Ranb |
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#169 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,235
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Since you're having a difficult time remembering what you wrote, and before you start accusing people of lying when is it in fact you who is not representing yourself truthfully, here is what you said... If you can't show where anyone said "the vast majority only want a gun for self defence or protection from tyranny", the appropriate and honest thing to do is admit you can't. If you are going to accuse others of engaging in rhetoric, you might want to make sure it's not actually you who is guilty. |
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#170 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 8,970
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#171 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,961
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#172 |
Thinker
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 209
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I am sorry I have not followed all of your posts in other threads and with the uproar from CT's tragic events I assumed it was more of the same, my bad.Too, I was surfing threads and coments from news outlets from the Newtown tragedy, and the tone of attacks wore thin. I really think that if one was appraised of the extent of current U.S. laws on the OP one could also see where enforcement of current statute will be sufficient to our current situation. An earnest push towords the ACA covering Mental health care; preventive, emergent, routine, ongoing and destigmatized, would also reduce said abberations. As a gun owner I am already liable for the security of my hardware, every bullet that leaves my gun and where it lands. My father, brother and I took hunters safety course 34 years ago and I look forward to taking it again with my son in January. Twenty some odd years ago Uncle Sam provided me with years of firearms instruction, and the guns I have now are civilian copies of what I have documented proof of training on, and if one thinks they are cosmetically EVIL I cannot help their terror. The father you've enlightened me was the source of your OP will live with guilt and remorse we cannot fathom, and we need him punished further how? I have a gun safe because I have always been a belt and suspenders kind of guy. They give gunlocks away for free. Responsibility and common sense cannot be compelled by legislation, and ORM is only as good as the individual.
I am not unreasonable, I am unrecognized. |
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The hairless monkey cringes, cries out against the storm. Religion is born. |
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#173 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,886
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It depends on how the argument is put. The reality is that more people die from their own weapon than do by someone else's. If the argument is that guns are dangerous to the owners and their family because they are likely to shoot themselves or their family accidently, then the figures are meaningless. If the argument is that possessing a gun means that you or your family are more likely to end up using it on yourself, or themselves than you are to use it on someone else, then it would seriously back that up.
Of course someone that is planning to kill themselves will manage it without a gun on hand, so I do find SG's linking a suicide and a kid being gunned down at a school. True they are bothdead, but remove the gun from the senario, and one will still be dead, while the other would have likely lived.
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![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. ![]() |
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#174 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 490
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If an alien, an absolute foreigner to everything American, were to come to America, and he walked into a gun store and found that he could purchase thousands of rounds of ammunition and guns that could potentially kill hundreds, I think he would be surprised and kind of bewildered. It's just weird to me that this is possible.
Of course, a person could potentially simply stab hundreds to death with a kitchen knife, but I've never felt that argument held water. So... Since when does this site have so many pop up ads? I haven't been here in a while and these are new, and they make it kind of impossible to read the site. Can someone clue e me in on how to stop them? I use an IPad. Thanks |
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"I'm a conservative. Now, you may not like that, but I am" - Frank Zappa |
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#175 |
Thinker
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 209
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If an alien, an absolute foreigner to everything American, were to come to America, and he walked into a Supermarket and found that he could purchase thousands of pounds of food and goods that could potentially feed his whole village, I think he would be surprised and kind of bewildered. It's just weird to me that this is possible.
The idea that America should be just like the rest of the world is confusing to me, like the clamors from the river to jump off the bridge, the water's fine. The majority of murders in America are dealt in single doses, and millions of Americans shoot millions of rounds without ever harming a soul. Try the computers and internet board for help with your Ipad there are very helpfull people in there. |
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The hairless monkey cringes, cries out against the storm. Religion is born. |
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#176 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,886
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__________________
![]() It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. ![]() |
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#177 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,961
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Do you really not understand? Those are just 3 that I posted. If I posted thousands of links, I'd most likely be carded from spamming the forum, or flooding the forum.
Here's a nice little stat for you. Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year Yeah, that's thousands. |
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#178 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 490
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"I'm a conservative. Now, you may not like that, but I am" - Frank Zappa |
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#179 |
Thinker
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 209
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It correlates as well as MVA's in our Car culture, and one underestimates the number of guns in most comparisons. I usually only see 'Dead per 100,000' or some such population based statistic, and if individual guns were so deadly the 200,000,000 or so of them in private hands should have us awash in blood (no we are not awash in blood) and states with CCW would not have the inconvenient drop in crime after CCW adoption. Aside from plane crash type outliers the true horror is gun free cities and the havoc within.
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The hairless monkey cringes, cries out against the storm. Religion is born. |
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#181 |
Thinker
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 209
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The hairless monkey cringes, cries out against the storm. Religion is born. |
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#182 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,264
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No problem, Globert. It's hardly common practice around here (or anywhere) not to operate on some standard assumptions.
I was hoping not to address current laws so much as imagine what would be ideal from the ground up. Mainly because current laws are all over the place from state to state. You have Florida with next to nothing and Illinois with laws out the wazoo. Fair enough. |
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#183 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,894
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#184 |
lorcutus.tolere
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,327
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I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to here. Obviously "responsible gun ownership" would mean complying with all relevant laws, and keeping your gun safe at all times. That's quite different to asking, in a hypothetical scenario, what gun control measures should be put in place by the state. The second question, I don't think I can answer, because I don't know enough about the matter to draw those sorts of conclusions. Frankly, I doubt even the US Government could answer that question right now. I could, however, suggest a number of different areas that could be explored as possible gun control measures. Of course, as with any sort of legal restrictions, the likely benefits have to be weighed against the resulting loss of freedom. Then you decide if it's really worth implementing those measures. Ultimately, you have to ask what it is you want to try address, and what it is you want to try achieve. That will guide your gun control laws. If, for example, you're only interested in stopping massed killings, your best bet is probably to simultaneously try reduce access to weapons by said individuals, and reduce the harm they can inflict in a short period of time (most mass killings only last a matter of minutes). If you mainly want to try prevent suicides, that's a different set of measures. If it's accidental deaths, that's another again. And so on. Generally speaking though, here's some areas worth considering if the US wants to reduce gun violence: 1. The very first step has to be tackling the 2nd Amendment. I'm not sure the USA can really do a lot more, as far as direct gun control, with the current interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. 2. The second would be federalising gun control laws. Having stringent gun control laws in one state is totally pointless if the state has open borders with neighbouring states that have less stringent controls. Make gun control a Federal issue rather than a State issue, so there's consistency across the country. 3. Border security. I've heard it suggested several times that were guns banned in the US entirely, they would just be smuggled from Mexico. Now, I have no idea if this is true (some have alternatively suggested the gun trade flows from the US into Mexico), but if it's a real possibility, obviously addressing the US-Mexico Border would have to factor into gun control. |
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#185 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,628
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It flows from the US to Mexico NOW, because we have them. But you ban them, and I don't think the cartels are dumb. They will make phone calls and before you know it, pallets of guns will arrive from S. America along with the pallets of coke and weed...etc
If I was them, that's what I'd do! |
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#186 |
lorcutus.tolere
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,327
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![]() ![]() O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge. |
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#187 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,628
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I have no idea, I do know that whiskey production in Canada sure skyrocketed after prohibition passed in the USA. I also know that the American gun makers would move their factories overseas as they would still have markets in other places.
All I'm saying is that if you give criminals an opportunity, generally, they are going to find a way to take advantage of it. If the coke lords in S. America find out they can ship guns to Mexico along with the drugs and all they have to do is buy them in bulk and ship them away (no growing or processing like drugs) I'm sure they's be more than happy to make the extra $$$. (and you can't really look at the situation NOW and say "they don't make gun there" or "the gun from the USA not from S America....etc" because the situation now is much different.) I don't think many people drank Canadian whiskey before 1920 either! |
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#188 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,521
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How about havings guns locked up in a police vault with the owners having to check out the gun for a specified time and purpose? Maybe have to give up some DNA to link with the gun in case the gun is then used for a crime? A few finger prints would be nice too.
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#189 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,141
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I think the best approach is to tax them, and increase the costs of permits 100%
The more pwoerful the gun the more tax, the higher the level of the permit you more you pay. You will have your right to bear arms still jsut it make it very very expensive. |
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#190 |
post-pre-born
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 22,538
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#191 |
post-pre-born
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 22,538
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#192 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 8,970
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#193 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,141
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The have nots, hmmm biggest worry potential gang attack or will I be able to pay the rent this week and eat.....
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#194 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,587
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Yet I back up what I say, which you do not
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp Protection against crime is the reason why 67% of gun owners have a gun. Your utter nonsense of that link accounts for 174% of guns is because you failed to spot there are multiple reasons, right after alleging I did not realise that. ![]() So that is that one covered. The protection against tyranny part is anecdotal from all the appeals to the Second Amendment for having a gun. http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/a/whyownagun_2.htm "I own and use guns for hunting, target shooting, clay busting, and self defense, as well as just plain exercising my right to protect myself against any and all oppressors." http://www.ammoland.com/2011/08/01/f...#axzz2FhLTPaAa That lists fifteen reason to have a gun including "George Washington said: “Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty teeth and keystone under independence..." http://www.philforhumanity.com/Gun_Ownership.html "Another reason for gun ownership is protection of an individual’s rights and freedoms from their own government." As I say, I use evidence, you use rhetoric. |
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#195 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The great American southeast
Posts: 8,469
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__________________
If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else. |
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#196 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,141
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Keep it legal to get and have them but make it harder to do so.
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#197 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,587
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You can also use the Gary Kleck study from 1995 which alleges 2.1 to 2.5 million DGUs each year. Problem is these surveys are the result of phoning people up and asking if they have used their gun for defence over the past year. There is no check to see if the use is proper.
There are other studies of DGUs which find that actual defensive shootings are rare. The various reports are by Tim Lambert (Dade Country Florida), Denton & Fabricius (Phoenix), David Hemenway (general study), McDowall & Wiersema (general study), The Violence Policy Centre (general study). The latter reports states "Out of the 7,875 handgun homicides reported in 1998, only 95 (1.2 percent) were justifiable handgun killings of an assailant previously unknown to the person defending themselves." http://www.vpc.org/studies/uninfive.htm which is backed up by "the FBI counted an average of 213 justified firearm homicides per year over the period 2005-2010" http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/30/op...fer/index.html It appears the pro gun side grossly exaggerates the reality of self defence with a gun. |
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#198 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,141
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http://www.lyricsfreak.com/l/lynyrd+..._20086135.html
From Saturday Night special - Lynard Skynard "Hand guns are made for killin' Ain't no good for nothin' else And if you like your whiskey You might even shoot yourself So why don't we dump 'em people To the bottom of the sea Before some fool come around here Wanna shoot either you or me" |
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#199 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,235
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Your comment was... Those are your exact words. Read them very, very carefully and tell us how that is contradictory to what you now say... If you don't see how that does not actually support your first comment, you could ask an English teacher at the high school you attend to parse the two comments and explain how the second does not substantiate the first.
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If by covered you mean you've failed to substantiate the comment you made, then yes. I'll thank you to take responsibility for your own failure.
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I used the exact words you wrote, your rhetoric, and asked you to substantiate your comment. You are unable to do it. Nobody has said the vast majority only want a gun for self defense or protection from tyranny. The evidence you provided contradicts it. |
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#200 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,587
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Yes they are my exact words, part of a response to this apparently now deleted post which remains as a quote in post #148
"Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post This *********** load of **** again? When are you EVER going to *********** learn? Is there something that prevents you from learning? Is it something in that **** water you're drinking in Scotland? WTF man???? Seriously??? You're an ignorant fool if you actually believe I'm scared and need a gun. Some may be. However, the vast majority are not, your ignorance notwithstanding." So I have picked up Triforcharity's use of the vast majority. So you object my use of the use of the words "vast majority" when the majority is 67% get a gun for protection from crime and 23% get a gun for another reason, is that it? Would you be happier with sizeable majority, or good majority? You concentrate on the rhetoric and semantics and I'll do evidencing. I am disinclined to take criticism from someone who interprets the statistics as "Yes, you've accounted for 174% of the gun owning population." |
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