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Old 22nd December 2012, 01:22 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
My post seems to have been ignored. I shall repeat it:
What about this part:

...It sounds like there may very well have been at least some flirting on both the boss' and the employee's parts and the dentist's wife put her foot down.
Where's the evidence of flirting? We have the self-serving allegation by Knight that the clothes were too tight (uncomfortably close to a "she made me get aroused" rape excuse), but no evidence of flirting.

Yes, obviously Knight's wife had a hand in this. An injustice has still been done.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 01:32 AM   #42
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1. The plaintiff made a mistake in her filing. This should have been filed as sexual harrasment.
Quote:
Nelson, 32, worked for Knight for 10 years, and he considered her a stellar worker. But in the final months of her employment, he complained that her tight clothing was distracting, once telling her that if his pants were bulging that was a sign her clothes were too revealing, according to the opinion.
He also once allegedly remarked about her infrequent sex life by saying, “that’s like having a Lamborghini in the garage and never driving it.”
2. WTF
Quote:
The Knights consulted with their pastor, who agreed that terminating Nelson was appropriate.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 01:32 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Where's the evidence of flirting? We have the self-serving allegation by Knight that the clothes were too tight (uncomfortably close to a "she made me get aroused" rape excuse), but no evidence of flirting.

Yes, obviously Knight's wife had a hand in this. An injustice has still been done.
What do you think the texting was? Normal boss employee conversation?

And if an employer tells an employee their clothes are too sexy, you know, that's a clue, you aren't dressing appropriately for your job. It wasn't a Hooters, it was a dental practice.

It may have been unfortunate, and the dentist may have been just as culpable. But seriously, this isn't some guy who fired an employee solely because the employee was attractive. A lot of times when these things develop, one of the two involved has to quit. Obviously the dentist can't quit his own practice.

He should have given her a decent severance and a recommendation that she could have probably used to get another job with easily. One has to wonder if the employee didn't hold the grudge against the wife in order to actually bring a lawsuit against the dentist.
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Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 22nd December 2012 at 01:38 AM.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 01:38 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No, she shouldn't. But she's probably going to anyway. Life isn't always fair or rational.

Sometimes the best way to end the suffering is to end the relationship. Breakups are almost never pretty, and people almost always get hurt who don't deserve it. Sometimes that's just the way it is.



You seem to be trying to extrapolate some perversely sexist general case from this specific event. Go ahead if you want to, but it's got nothing to do with me: this horrible fantasy is all yours.
Why are you referring to this case as if it were a marriage? Breakups? Seriously?

This was a working arrangement, and every worker should expect a degree of professionalism and respect from their boss. This was a disgraceful judgement from the court.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 01:44 AM   #45
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she's a hot chick, she will end up okay
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Old 22nd December 2012, 01:44 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What do you think the texting was? Normal boss employee conversation?

And if an employer tells an employee their clothes are too sexy, you know, that's a clue, you aren't dressing appropriately for your job. It wasn't a Hooters, it was a dental practice.
Where is the evidence of inappropriate dressing and texting? All we have reported is Knight's assertions.

I'm sorry, but I've got to say it. Another failure of the US justice system.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 01:50 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And if an employer tells an employee their clothes are too sexy, you know, that's a clue, you aren't dressing appropriately for your job. It wasn't a Hooters, it was a dental practice.
Or, based on the language used to express that opinion, then it could be a clue that the boss is sexually harassing the worker.

If he had simply told her that her dress was inappropriate, no problem, but by pointing out that her attire caused a bulge in his pants, he sexually harassed her. When a boss/worker both start flirting and the only way to resolve it is to fire the worker, than the boss has sexually harassed the worker. If that flirting was only one-sided on the boss's part, then the boss has sexually harassed the worker.

The only way that the employee was in the wrong here, was that she filed the wrong type of lawsuit. It was sexual harassment, not gender discrimination.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 01:50 AM   #48
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Agreed with lionking. He fired her due to his own failings, and the court rewarded him. Unbelievable.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 01:56 AM   #49
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It looks like Nelson was trying to play decent throughout. Bad strategy against a religious scumbag.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 02:55 AM   #50
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Seems odd that she worked there for a decade but the tight clothes and hotness only manifested recently.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 02:58 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Seems odd that she worked there for a decade but the tight clothes and hotness only manifested recently.
And the bulge in the pants......
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Old 22nd December 2012, 03:41 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by cwalner View Post
Or, based on the language used to express that opinion, then it could be a clue that the boss is sexually harassing the worker.

If he had simply told her that her dress was inappropriate, no problem, but by pointing out that her attire caused a bulge in his pants, he sexually harassed her. When a boss/worker both start flirting and the only way to resolve it is to fire the worker, than the boss has sexually harassed the worker. If that flirting was only one-sided on the boss's part, then the boss has sexually harassed the worker.

The only way that the employee was in the wrong here, was that she filed the wrong type of lawsuit. It was sexual harassment, not gender discrimination.
Possibly, but if she's be a willing participant in the flirting, texting, etc I think she would have a hard time trying to make harassment stick which is probably why she ended up going for the sex discrimination angle.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 05:53 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
I think the ruling is BS myself. I fully expect this to be kicked up to the next level.

It has USSC written all over it.
Unless he documented that he asked her to wear baggier clothing and then documented that she didn't.

Even at that in Illinois they can fire you for any reason that they want.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 07:00 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles View Post
Possibly, but if she's be a willing participant in the flirting, texting, etc I think she would have a hard time trying to make harassment stick which is probably why she ended up going for the sex discrimination angle.
I disagree. She relies on him for her livelihood. The power is too unbalanced to dismiss the possibility of coercion in her decision to be involved with him.

Also while I am not a lawyer, even if an employee is the initiator of a more personal relationship, my understanding is that the employer is still guilty of harassment for getting involved. There is a reason why larger companies have policies about dating co-workers. They can become problematic and a source of harassment if one of the participants has workplace authority over the other.

This is just an egregious example of it. As the prestige indicated, the employers behavior was completely appropriate for how to end a bad relationship. However, the fact that he was the other person's boss, also made it harassment, even assuming that the relationship was entered willingly by both parties.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 07:27 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Are you kidding me????


http://www.patriotledger.com/news/x4...rt-says?zc_p=0





And here I was thinking we were moving forward on equality. DOH! Glad I don't play the ponies. I suck at predicting.
If I was a woman or a man fired for this I'd get a lawyer and sue.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 07:51 AM   #56
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An employer should have the right to hire and fire. Otherwise, why bother employing anyone. Better to never start a business than to have limited authority in the running of it.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 07:59 AM   #57
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I wonder how many patients this dentist lost when this hit the papers? I sure as hell wouldn't stay with him. He might decide my teeth are too sexy and need to be removed.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 08:16 AM   #58
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I think claiming she was fired because she was too hot is oversimplifying the issue. We only have the claims of all parties involved to go on and it's a little weird to cherry pick which parts we will call truth. What we are presented with:
After working for this office for ten years, something upped his interest in an employee. He began noticing her clothing Whether there was an actual change or not; as an employer and a married man to a married woman, his comments were flat out inappropriate. He began taking interest and making comments about her sex life; even more inappropriate than her choice of clothing. A couple of red flags are going up at this point; for one, there is no accusations of sexual harassment but more curious; how the hell does the dentist know she's not having sex?
At some point, they beging pursuing a more personal relationship, via text. Does she stop and say, "Hey this is not appropriate?" No, she responds and engages in text discussions about her private life.

Everyone brings their own biased opinions to discussions like this and I am open to evidence that shows otherwise but to me, this looks like a budding affair, the wife caught on and put the breaks on it. If there was any indication at all that she wasn't receptive to his pursuit, this would be an easily sexual harassment case; there is a reason that a lawyer wouldn't choose that angle. It sucks for her that she lost her job and it would suck even more if she didn't put a stop to it because of his authority but given the information we have, what would have been a better solution? Fire his wife for being nosey? Close down his practice because it's unfair that one participant loses more?
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Old 22nd December 2012, 08:26 AM   #59
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Clearly she should now go to dental school, become a dentist, start a practice, hire pretty-boy assistants and then fire them just for spite!
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Old 22nd December 2012, 08:34 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by sgtbaker View Post
I think claiming she was fired because she was too hot is oversimplifying the issue. We only have the claims of all parties involved to go on and it's a little weird to cherry pick which parts we will call truth. What we are presented with:
After working for this office for ten years, something upped his interest in an employee. He began noticing her clothing Whether there was an actual change or not; as an employer and a married man to a married woman, his comments were flat out inappropriate. He began taking interest and making comments about her sex life; even more inappropriate than her choice of clothing. A couple of red flags are going up at this point; for one, there is no accusations of sexual harassment but more curious; how the hell does the dentist know she's not having sex?
At some point, they beging pursuing a more personal relationship, via text. Does she stop and say, "Hey this is not appropriate?" No, she responds and engages in text discussions about her private life.

Everyone brings their own biased opinions to discussions like this and I am open to evidence that shows otherwise but to me, this looks like a budding affair, the wife caught on and put the breaks on it. If there was any indication at all that she wasn't receptive to his pursuit, this would be an easily sexual harassment case; there is a reason that a lawyer wouldn't choose that angle. It sucks for her that she lost her job and it would suck even more if she didn't put a stop to it because of his authority but given the information we have, what would have been a better solution? Fire his wife for being nosey? Close down his practice because it's unfair that one participant loses more?
I too was curious how the dentist knew she wasn't having sex and I think there's more to this story than we're being told.

A better solution ? Make the wife the office manager and have her fire the employee.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 09:09 AM   #61
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So what other scenarios are also valid? A guy in a crowded theater sitting next to a hot girl and telling her "Sorry maam, you're too hot for me to resist. You're gonna have to find another seat"..... A guy and a woman on a boat, and the guy going like "Sorry maam, you're too hawt and I just wanna have you and I can't contain myself, you're gonna have to jump off this boat".... The only available doctor and his female patient, him going like "Sorry miss, I cannot be your surgeon. You're too hot. You're gonna have to find someone else to do your breast cancer removal cause all I wanna do is eat those tits"?

Hmmm?
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Old 22nd December 2012, 09:25 AM   #62
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My wife says if I finish taking this report from you she'll divorce me; so you'll have to find another police station.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 09:29 AM   #63
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Here's a tip. If you're married and you find someone at work attractive, don't sleep with them


The 'I must fire her or we'll fall into each other's arms like star-crossed lovers' excuse is just a pile of fetid dingoes kidneys.

What a total douche.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 09:56 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
An employer should have the right to hire and fire. Otherwise, why bother employing anyone. Better to never start a business than to have limited authority in the running of it.
Yeah, damn all that pesky anti-discrimination legislation, those outrageous health and safety regulations.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 10:47 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
I think we need to ratify the ERA ASAP.
A third leg of the problems you intend to solve: right after gun control and bacon availability.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 10:57 AM   #66
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The proof that this is a completely absurd thing is that it was featured in a Seinfeld episode, where George finds his secretary too hot, so he fires her.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 11:03 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
The problem with that is "I can't deal with this person"->She gets fired.
Well, let him fire himself then, and she's still out of a job. The situation sucks, but I think he acted reasonably. It isn't even necessary to assume he'd be unable to control himself if she'd stayed. His first responsibility is to his wife and family. If his wife believed that she was a danger to their marriage, then he has a responsibility to take that seriously (even if he never acted overtly on his feelings there's still a danger that such a situation could turn into a harassment suit that would cost him his business and consequently his wife's livelihood as well as her own). He gave the woman a month's severance pay. She should count her blessings that he was so fair with her and go find another job.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 12:01 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Here's a tip. If you're married and you find someone at work attractive, don't sleep with them


The 'I must fire her or we'll fall into each other's arms like star-crossed lovers' excuse is just a pile of fetid dingoes kidneys.

What a total douche.
I wonder how the wife feels now that her husband has officially said he'd like to sleep with another woman?

He might have set himself up for a nasty divorce.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 12:28 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
The problem with that is "I can't deal with this person"->She gets fired.
Remember that I am only speaking of one problem here - and I am basically on the woman's side: BUT the wife going is not going to work, and the guy is the only dentist in this operation so........ there is only one person to go if anyone is going to go.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 01:03 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
She should count her blessings that he was so fair with her and go find another job.
Did you actually just post that?

No; this is one of those abstract dreams where nothing makes sense; I'm sure of it now. Wake up in 3...2...1...
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Old 22nd December 2012, 01:11 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Remember that I am only speaking of one problem here - and I am basically on the woman's side: BUT the wife going is not going to work, and the guy is the only dentist in this operation so........ there is only one person to go if anyone is going to go.
Why does anyone have to go?

As has been said, the "I won't be able to stop myself from trying to have an affair" line is a load of whale crap at the bottom of a dry well. So is the notion that somebody had to lose their livelihood in this situation. If the wife thought there was a "threat to their marriage", then he should've gone with her to a counselor and worked it out.

It's only a matter of time before a man who genuinely thinks "but I'm afraid I won't be able to control myself" is an acceptable and believable line of reasoning will use it again. Since the court has certified its validity as an excuse it's a practical certainty. Carried to its logical conclusion, he's going to end up doing something and blaming someone else because "he couldn't stop himself".


This person can't just walk down the street and into another job; not in this economy.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 01:34 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Generous? You have to be joking. She was a 10 year employee.

As to what he could do? Control himself, seek help. The victim is being blamed here.
A month's pay is pretty shabby. Finding a job in under a month is certainly not the norm in the current economy. Frankly, it seems his wife's insecurity is where the blame lies.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 02:08 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
My post seems to have been ignored. I shall repeat it:
What about this part:

...It sounds like there may very well have been at least some flirting on both the boss' and the employee's parts and the dentist's wife put her foot down.

To me it reads more like the boss was sexually harassing her. But more likely, since they'd worked together for an entire decade it was just a case of two good friends being jokey. I'd love to know how long the boss had been married and how long said wife had worked at the company.



Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Employers can expect employees to dress appropriately. They were texting each other. It sounds like the relationship was indeed moving in a dangerous direction. Maybe there were other solutions, but this is not a case of an employer simply firing an employee because the employer lusted after her.
Seriously? TEN YEARS. My girlfriend socialises with her boss and texts them and she's worked at her current job for a year. People who work with bosses (particularly in small businesses) for a long period of time become friends with them. Friends communicate with each other.

Are we supposed to believe these two have worked together for a decade and suddenly found themselves getting hot around the edges? Please. Sounds more like they have a familiar and friendly relationship (as happens if you work closely with someone for a decade) and the wife has got a case of jealousy and put her foot down.

Thank god stupid things like that can't happen here. Our employment laws expect business owners to treat their businesses like a business and not as an extension of their family.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 02:20 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Where is the evidence of inappropriate dressing and texting? All we have reported is Knight's assertions.

I'm sorry, but I've got to say it. Another failure of the US justice system.
I missed it if anyone in the article said those things were not true.

There are some times when a relationship at a workplace requires one of the two parties to leave. This appears to me to be one of those times.

Perhaps the boss didn't handle it well.
Perhaps the wife was a bitch.
Perhaps the employee was vengeful after the event.

I don't know. I do know a court should not be the arbitrator of a personality(s) problem in the workplace unless there is sexual harassment or discrimination. Typically in this state, the employer should have documented requests for the employee to dress more appropriately, the texting should never have happened, and there's a good chance both the worker and the dentist were a little too friendly with each other.

What I don't see here is the exact slant as reported by the news media whose interest is in selling scandal.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 02:22 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by cwalner View Post
...
The only way that the employee was in the wrong here, was that she filed the wrong type of lawsuit. It was sexual harassment, not gender discrimination.
That's a possibility I would not rule out. One has to wonder though, did the worker feel harassed? The decision not to sue for harassment suggests there might have been witnesses it was a two way attraction. Not saying I know, though.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 02:28 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by sgtbaker View Post
I think claiming she was fired because she was too hot is oversimplifying the issue. We only have the claims of all parties involved to go on and it's a little weird to cherry pick which parts we will call truth. What we are presented with:

...Everyone brings their own biased opinions to discussions like this and I am open to evidence that shows otherwise but to me, this looks like a budding affair, the wife caught on and put the breaks on it. ...
Own biases is all we have given the small amount of info in the news report. I read the story similarly to your post. In addition, I work with hundreds of dentists as an employee health provider. The offices are small and relationships can at times be mini soap operas.

That is undoubtedly biasing my opinion.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 02:31 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
...

Seriously? TEN YEARS. My girlfriend socialises with her boss and texts them and she's worked at her current job for a year. People who work with bosses (particularly in small businesses) for a long period of time become friends with them. Friends communicate with each other.....
The atmosphere in a dental office is very often more sociable than other work places. It would depend on the texts.

But a jealous wife, that changes the mix. The dentist had two employees that were not going to work well together. He couldn't exactly fire the wife without her getting even more upset. He couldn't quit his own practice.

What do you think he should have done?
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Old 22nd December 2012, 03:03 PM   #78
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One possibility is that the two (or three) of them work together to find a solution. If that solution was that she has to go, fine. Then the dentist and wife would work with her to find alternative employment and until that happens, all other contact is verboten. This should not have gotten into court.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 04:03 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Here's a tip. If you're married and you find someone at work attractive, don't sleep with them


The 'I must fire her or we'll fall into each other's arms like star-crossed lovers' excuse is just a pile of fetid dingoes kidneys.

What a total douche.
No comment on the article, I just wanted to see that part in bold.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 04:06 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
He gave her a generous payout, and ended the relationship. What else do you want him to do?
He should've found another place to work instead of firing her.
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