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Old 26th December 2012, 10:34 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
i start to understand where the problem is with the US and their gun nutters. sick, just sick.
Yes, he must be crazy to teach his child how to handle dangerous items correctly and safely at an young age.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
False analogy, reductio ad absurdum and slippery slope all in one concise fail. Well done.
RAA isn't necessarily a fallacy. Perhaps you're confusing it with a straw man. I don't see the slippery slope; OTT is saying right out that cars currently kill X amount of people, and restricting their use would save many of those people. Both guns and cars kill lots of people, which is absolutely true. The argument usually made by people opposing guns is that if gunskill so many people, banning guns would save a certain amount of those people. Swap in cars for guns and it fits exactly. There's no way to "refute" it without adding special conditions not mentioned in the original statement (moving the goalposts), such as the claim that most gun deaths and injuries are deliberate, while vehicular manslaughter is usually an accident, or that guns are all designed to kill (because competition shooting weapons don't exist) while cars aren't, and so on.

Originally Posted by sgtbaker View Post
Violent crime and murder, in the US has been on a decline since the early 90's.
Despite the amount of guns having risen, IIRC. Not to mention that most gun crimes are already committed with illegally owned guns, despite multiple amnesty and turn-in programs.
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Old 26th December 2012, 10:36 AM   #122
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What this thread proves is that we have alot of work to do before we resolve this issue
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Old 26th December 2012, 10:36 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
LOL...

uh - yea.
Should only adults learn archery?
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Old 26th December 2012, 10:40 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by kedo1981 View Post
What this thread proves is that we have alot of work to do before we resolve this issue
If it's an issue... I'm on both sides of it.
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Old 26th December 2012, 10:46 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
Should only adults learn archery?
Sounds good to me.
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Old 26th December 2012, 10:50 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Being purchased by very paranoid people, thinking like clockwork that the government is going to take away their precious little guns (man cards!). Despite the evidence to the contrary. These are the flippin people who are stocking up to arm themselves against the ever-imminent threat of government takeover.

As if an extra 30 round clip or rifle will do a damn thing to stop it, in the absurdly unlikely event it actually happens.
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
WHy would you want to tech kids that guns are cool and they shouls leanr to use one as soon as possible?

It seems to me that the ability to use a gun is seem as some essential to being a 'Man'.
Women never own or use guns?
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Old 26th December 2012, 10:52 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Women never own or use guns?
I'm sure they do. But those gun shows you see on TV? They're all marketed toward guys.

Guns are a "guy" thing, lets not even try to debate THAT.
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Old 26th December 2012, 11:08 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Women never own or use guns?
I am sure they do but how many equate their gun ownership with their femininity?

Guins are like cars. Men seem to think the bigger and more powerful they are the more of a man it makes their owner.
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Old 26th December 2012, 11:10 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Sounds good to me.
Am I a "bow nut" for teaching my daughter how? She saw it on the Olympics and wanted to do it too. Is the Olympics a bad thing, then?
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Old 26th December 2012, 11:11 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I'm sure they do. But those gun shows you see on TV? They're all marketed toward guys.

Guns are a "guy" thing, lets not even try to debate THAT.
I know several women who'd say that's a sexist statement and they'd be correct.
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Old 26th December 2012, 11:11 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by sgtbaker View Post
Violent crime and murder, in the US has been on a decline since the early 90's.
The murder is still four times higher than most of Europe. And as somebody pointed out earlier, the decline seems to have stalled.
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Old 26th December 2012, 11:14 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
Am I a "bow nut" for teaching my daughter how? She saw it on the Olympics and wanted to do it too. Is the Olympics a bad thing, then?
none sequitur, thinking a child shouldn't learn archery to the Olympics are a bad thing.

I am an archer, I have been since I was a teenager.

When was the last time there was a murder involving a bow and arrow in the UK?
When was the last time there was any death related to Archery in the UK?

In the USA death by bow and arrow is so rare it is a big news event.

Without googling when was the last murder with bow and arrow in the USA?
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Old 26th December 2012, 11:15 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by 000063 View Post
RAA isn't necessarily a fallacy. Perhaps you're confusing it with a straw man. I don't see the slippery slope; OTT is saying right out that cars currently kill X amount of people, and restricting their use would save many of those people. Both guns and cars kill lots of people, which is absolutely true. The argument usually made by people opposing guns is that if gunskill so many people, banning guns would save a certain amount of those people. Swap in cars for guns and it fits exactly. There's no way to "refute" it without adding special conditions not mentioned in the original statement (moving the goalposts), such as the claim that most gun deaths and injuries are deliberate, while vehicular manslaughter is usually an accident, or that guns are all designed to kill (because competition shooting weapons don't exist) while cars aren't, and so on.
I suppose if explosives were as widely available as guns, some parents would put blasting caps and dynamite under the Christmas tree.

They could spend a pleasant day teaching their children how to blow up tree stumps.

It probably wouldn't kill as many people as highway accidents.
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Old 26th December 2012, 12:02 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
Am I a "bow nut" for teaching my daughter how? She saw it on the Olympics and wanted to do it too. Is the Olympics a bad thing, then?
Listen, I know where you're going. I'm not an idiot.

You can't compare the two. You just can't. Go ahead and teach your kid the bow and arrow, I don't care. And I don't recall calling you a "bow nut".
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Old 26th December 2012, 12:03 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
I know several women who'd say that's a sexist statement and they'd be correct.
Yes, they would be correct - however I notice you didn't actually call my statement wrong.
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Old 26th December 2012, 12:15 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Listen, I know where you're going. I'm not an idiot.

You can't compare the two. You just can't. Go ahead and teach your kid the bow and arrow, I don't care. And I don't recall calling you a "bow nut".
You didn't. I invented the term and then asked the comparative question.



Originally Posted by NoahFence
Yes, they would be correct - however I notice you didn't actually call my statement wrong.
Your "guns are a guy thing, can't be debated" statement is wrong.
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Old 26th December 2012, 12:27 PM   #137
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Really?



Lemme guess - they chose that particular store due to it's convienient location and quality cell coverage? 'Cuz I think it's because the daughter is insanely hot.

Same reason they don't hire scantily clad male models to stand next to cars at the car shows. They hire insanely hot models. To market to males. Guns are a male dominated thing - is this really in question?
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Old 26th December 2012, 12:30 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
The simple fact of the matter is that you don't want to actually admit that you need to ban automobiles for recreational purposes in your country. Though you are getting a bit closer to it it seems.
Banning cars: figment of the imagination
Banning guns (or at least certain kinds): realistic
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Old 26th December 2012, 12:32 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by 000063 View Post
Yes, he must be crazy to teach his child how to handle dangerous items correctly and safely at an young age.


indeed.
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Old 26th December 2012, 12:34 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Really?

http://dsc.discovery.com/pdi/files/2...-store-306.jpg

Lemme guess - they chose that particular store due to it's convienient location and quality cell coverage? 'Cuz I think it's because the daughter is insanely hot.

Same reason they don't hire scantily clad male models to stand next to cars at the car shows. They hire insanely hot models. To market to males. Guns are a male dominated thing - is this really in question?
Given that all the women in my circle of friends own and use firearms, I have to question it, yes.
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Old 26th December 2012, 12:36 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Really?

http://dsc.discovery.com/pdi/files/2...-store-306.jpg

Lemme guess - they chose that particular store due to it's convienient location and quality cell coverage? 'Cuz I think it's because the daughter is insanely hot.

Same reason they don't hire scantily clad male models to stand next to cars at the car shows. They hire insanely hot models. To market to males. Guns are a male dominated thing - is this really in question?
Gun ownership between male and females isn't that far apart. What separates the two is the passion shown by men about their guns. I can best describe it as much like Star Wars fan boys dissecting the components of the death star like giggly teenage girls discussing the latest Justin Bieber hijinx.
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Old 26th December 2012, 12:46 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
Given that all the women in my circle of friends own and use firearms, I have to question it, yes.
Again - a token Google image search of the TV show "SONSof Guns" - the first image is this:




Which guns do you suppose this TV show is marketing?
(Hint - not the one in her hands)
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Old 26th December 2012, 12:53 PM   #143
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I won't contest that the marketing is mostly to men.

I do contend that they're not a "guy thing". If you think there's a problem and you wish to examine it honestly, the site you're posting on should serve as a reminder that assumptions and emotion can get in the way of reason. You're losing me as someone who straddles the line here. I'm not a gun owner but pretty much every one of my friends is, and one of the arguments you're using is demeaning to half of them.
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Old 26th December 2012, 01:00 PM   #144
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Calling guns a "guy thing" is demeaning to women?

Cars are a guy thing... tools are a guy thing....

There's a ton of "guy things" that women also use. I just don't hear any women doing the whole "pry them from my cold, dead hands" crap.

Quote:
What separates the two is the passion shown by men about their guns.
This I'll buy. Although the "passion" sometimes, to me, borders on paranoid. That's the problem with the gun culture.
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Old 26th December 2012, 01:03 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Calling guns a "guy thing" is demeaning to women?

Cars are a guy thing... tools are a guy thing....

There's a ton of "guy things" that women also use. I just don't hear any women doing the whole "pry them from my cold, dead hands" crap.



This I'll buy. Although the "passion" sometimes, to me, borders on paranoid. That's the problem with the gun culture.
Look, it's like this.

I once asked a girl I just met if she liked Led Zeppelin. She was taken aback, with an "of course" look and asked why I asked. I told her that in my experience, women didn't really go for the heavy metal sound. She gave me an earful. My problem, she said, was making such broad assumptions about women and applying them to her.
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Old 26th December 2012, 01:13 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
Some folks have no shame at all. None.

Disgusting.

http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Ck...0/PoolXmas.jpg
Hundreds of dead kids a year from drowning. But let's just keep being ignorant and stupid. Let's flaunt our freedom to dive like it's some kind of patriotism. Sick.
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Old 26th December 2012, 01:13 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Really?

http://dsc.discovery.com/pdi/files/2...-store-306.jpg

Lemme guess - they chose that particular store due to it's convienient location and quality cell coverage? 'Cuz I think it's because the daughter is insanely hot.

Same reason they don't hire scantily clad male models to stand next to cars at the car shows. They hire insanely hot models. To market to males. Guns are a male dominated thing - is this really in question?
The problem with your line of argument is that magazines like Cosmopolitan invariably have pictures of sexy women on the cover. I've never quite understood that.

BUT, I agree with your basic thesis. Gun nuts are overwhelmingly male. Moreover, they tend to belong to the dumbest and most irresponsible segment of the male population... the kind of people who cheer when Ted Nugent threatens to assassinate the president.
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Old 26th December 2012, 01:16 PM   #148
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Nice post, Carlitos.

I'm starting to lose my emotional attachment to the gun debate, and starting to see that maybe the "gun nuts" have a point that guns are just tools. They fire projectiles at a high velocity, but when not used illegally or immorally are no worse than the swimming pool above.
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Old 26th December 2012, 01:24 PM   #149
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Swimming pools weren't invented to kill people.

Slight difference.
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Old 26th December 2012, 01:25 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
Nice post, Carlitos.

I'm starting to lose my emotional attachment to the gun debate, and starting to see that maybe the "gun nuts" have a point that guns are just tools. They fire projectiles at a high velocity, but when not used illegally or immorally are no worse than the swimming pool above.
I think you'll find that the emotion gun owners bring is just as much related to their opponents not only being anti-gun but also anti-gun-owner.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to be indignant after being told they're irresponsible, stupid, ignorant nuts with blood on their hands who only partake in a hobby because they have tiny penises and fear black helicopters.
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Old 26th December 2012, 01:26 PM   #151
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Why not to kill game too? Your difference is only a slight one; guns have had dual use their entire existence.
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Old 26th December 2012, 01:28 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
I think you'll find that the emotion gun owners bring is just as much related to their opponents not only being anti-gun but also anti-gun-owner.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to be indignant after being told they're irresponsible, stupid, ignorant nuts with blood on their hands who only partake in a hobby because they have tiny penises and fear black helicopters.
It sure doesn't help the debate move forward. I tune out of discussions about the T of E and Creationists for the same reason.
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Old 26th December 2012, 02:16 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
It sure doesn't help the debate move forward. I tune out of discussions about the T of E and Creationists for the same reason.
I have noticed a lot of people talking past each other. It's like each side of the debate has members who simply need the other side to be a caricature (a need which some willingly fulfill) and cannot acknowledge reasoned argument - and there is plenty of that too in the threads.

You could probably halve the gun control threads if the former kinds of posts were removed. Most of us are guilty of them.
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Old 26th December 2012, 02:33 PM   #154
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Yes; immediately after 9/11 I was furious and very in favor of some unspecified "go get 'em" mission.

After all those kids got shot I was so appalled, just like everyone on both sides of the gun debate.

Fact is, we have the guns. That's our society as Americans. Voluntary turn-ins are fine, let's do that. Let's be fine with folks teaching their kids that guns aren't a worthwhile thing to have, and let's have folks who come from hunting families and take their kids out into the woods to hunt. It's what there is to work with.

If there's a problem, we have to discuss it rationally and not fling labels. On this forum especially, we should be the beacon of the freaking internet on so many issues.
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Old 26th December 2012, 02:39 PM   #155
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Great points. I tried to discuss this with the Mrs. the other day, and the best I could sum it up was "tragedies don't tend to make good policy."

I know it sounds cold, but if someone were to run death statistics, mass shootings would not even be a blip on any radar, anywhere. You could make much more fact based arguments for banning swimming pools than you could for banning "assault weapons".

Then again we live in a country that is dominated by cheesy media and two bit politicians that are supposed to be acting in our interests. So I suppose fact-based decision-making is too much to ask for.
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Old 26th December 2012, 02:43 PM   #156
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We're helpless against what we can't predict and grasp for ways to predict it or cut the legs from under it, and if we're gonna freak out we should use that energy wisely, not like the... well, like the gun nut who freaked out.

You're right. Tragedy doesn't make sound policy. It's reactionary.
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Old 26th December 2012, 03:09 PM   #157
Charlie Wilkes
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
I have noticed a lot of people talking past each other. It's like each side of the debate has members who simply need the other side to be a caricature (a need which some willingly fulfill)
Some?

Maybe I'm too invested in one side of this, because from my perspective, gun nuts as a whole make themselves all but immune to satire.

Look at gun nut Ted Nugent, telling a hepped-up crowd of fellow gun nuts at a gun nut convention that he's gonna end up dead or in jail if Obama is re-elected.

Look at the gun nut who sued a gun company because he handed his 8-year-old a machine gun, and, golly gee, the kid ended up blowing his own brains out.

Or look at Adam Lanza's gun nut mother, arming her mentally ill son against the day when Newtown CT reverts to the law of the jungle.

Aside from the problem of bad taste, how can anyone construct a parody with that kind of material as the literal foundation?
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Old 26th December 2012, 03:48 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The murder is still four times higher than most of Europe. And as somebody pointed out earlier, the decline seems to have stalled.
That is entirely true but I got the impression that you were crediting gun control for the drop in murder and violent crime. The fact that the US was also experiencing a downward trend indicates that there might be other factors involved. According to the uniform crime reporting, we've had more than just a tapering off, we've had a slight upward trend in violent crime in the last year, likely having more to do with economic insecurity.
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Old 26th December 2012, 04:17 PM   #159
StankApe
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Swimming pools weren't invented to kill people.

Slight difference.
how do you know?


your argument from emotion is amusing, pointless and is just you wanting to take things away from people due to political reasons. (most anti-gun people make the silly assumption that ALL gun owners are right winged jesus followers, which is completely wrong)

every single argument against gun ownership in the USA has been based on nothing but calling the opposition names, hyperbole, and emotion.

If you have a problem with the 2nd amendment, then lobby to repeal it. Otherwise, close the piehole.
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Old 26th December 2012, 04:24 PM   #160
lionking
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
how do you know?
Now that's stundy worthy.
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