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#4761 |
Mormon Atheist
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,134
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Ego, ain't it a bitch? |
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#4762 |
Mormon Atheist
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,134
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I grew up in Utah and attended high school there. Yes, you could ask but you were not guaranteed. I understand a committee makes the decision but I don't know that for a fact. I wanted to stay stateside because I wanted baptisms. I was very happy to get Southern California. The missionaries gave the moniker to the mission simply because of Disneyland. I don't remember how much but it was a lot. At the MTC there was mixed training. I saved from my mission and I sold my prized possession to pay for it. I purchased a 1967 Camaro Super Sport and lovingly restored to prime condition. No bondo I only used led and I block sanded it for days. It was gorgeous and remains one of my biggest regrets. What I couldn't afford my family paid for. The church does supply funds for those who absolutely cannot afford it.
Think about it though, a sales force that pays its own way. |
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#4763 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,809
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Quote:
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http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499 “She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One ![]() |
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#4764 |
Thinker
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 213
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Uuh, that was a real question
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"Karl Marx was right, socialism works, it is just that he had the wrong species" − E. O. Wilson |
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#4765 |
Mormon Atheist
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,134
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Ego, ain't it a bitch? |
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#4766 |
a carbon based life-form
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
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#4767 |
Mormon Atheist
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,134
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It's a bit more involved than that. It was at the end of the meal, during casual conversation it would work like this, "Brother and Sister Jensen, as you know we rely on friendshiping and referrals from members for many of our potential converts. Do you know of anyone who has experienced a life changing event? Someone who just strarted college or just left home to move into a new appartment. Someone who was recently married, or had a baby or someone who is going through a divorce, lost their job or who has lost a loved on.
Something like that. I don't know if they still do it but I can tell you it worked when I was in the field. |
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#4768 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,806
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My best friends 19 year old daughter has converted to Mormonism, she will be baptized next week. My friend,although still a Believer (Protestant) was raised Mormon , and is very aware of the ways Mormon belief contradicts reality, the false translations, horses and barley in America, JS's colorful con games, the real ancestry of Native Americans, etc.
The interesting thing is, when confronted with facts she easily verify (she's a college student) , her response is "that's just propaganda from anti-mormon sources". Sound familiar? I'm just wondering if this is part of the primary indoctrination. RandFan, were you hammered with this meme? |
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#4769 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,501
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#4770 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 22,397
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I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard) |
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#4771 |
Mormon Atheist
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,134
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See post #4767. I don't know if and or how cynical it is. I don't want to be in the position of defending the Church. At the time it seemed compassionate. I actually met with people who lost loved ones. I met with people in hospitals and I spent the last dying hours with someone who had no family. I spent time with a man who was going to prison and provided him comfort when he was scared. It could be argued either way. I can tell you that I cared deeply for the people I worked with. You decide if it is cynical.
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#4772 |
Mormon Atheist
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,134
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__________________
Ego, ain't it a bitch? |
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#4773 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Here Now
Posts: 9,558
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For Mormons and Christians in general, I believe persecution is look upon as an honor, and a validation of one's faith.
The martyr syndrome. |
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#4774 |
post-pre-born
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 22,553
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Seems to hold no small sway among modern day Muslims as well. It's probably true for other sects as well, we just don't hear that much about them in the western media.
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#4775 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 10,238
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I certainly got it all the time from the Mormon I debated on another board. It doesn't matter if the source of the information is an expert (archeologist, geneticist, historian) who never heard of the LDS, if the information contradicts LDS doctrine it's an anti-Mormon source.
The other thing they seem to be taught a standard response to is the question of why previously committed Mormons (complete with burning in the bosom testimony) leave the church. They're told it can only be because of personality clashes with other members etc, not because they eventually managed to work out for themselves that it's all nonsense. |
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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#4776 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,806
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I've seen this behavior among other Christian denominations as well. They have the advantage of relying on the unverifiable nature of events that happened 2,000 years ago though.
The problem LDS has is that they are so new. Smith's antics are recent enough to generate an extra aura of silliness. When you think about it a flying gold tablet or magic hat is probably no worse than a loaves to fishes transformation or a stroll over the water, many of us are just so used to hearing the latter claims that they've become almost ordinary. |
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#4777 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,679
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There is, of course, explicit praise for martyrs in religion.
But I wonder if there's also some self-selection going on, which distorts the sample of religious people that skeptics interact with. In other words, Mormons (or any Christians) who are cool with the martyr thing, are the ones who will interact most on the topic of religion with disbelievers. So they're the ones whom disbelievers engage with more often, when the topic is about flaws in religion. The believers who aren't into martyrdom and dislike being insulted, are more apt to avoid confrontation and retreat to a live-and-let-live interaction on topics other than religion. Therefore, they're less apt to be noticed by skeptics, who wind up spending most of their time arguing with the subset of believers who do enjoy martyrdom. |
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#4778 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 8,292
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I think that's one reason Janadele claimed her sons received no such instruction. To the person receiving the instruction it won't necessarily feel like a cynical ploy to exploit the vulnerable, but a means of finding those in the most need. As Obi-Wan Kenobi said "It's all in your point of view." Manipulative actions can be easily depicted in a beneficial light.
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#4779 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Here Now
Posts: 9,558
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It seems more marketable for them if they say the former members, "lost the spirit", rather than, they "saw through the BS" and "figured out it was a con game". But, reality is, they actually believe the con, themselves
In mormonism there is such a thing as Temple Marriage, It is a marriage "for all time and eternity", as opposed to "until death do us part". Imagine my amazment to find that there are many who are married in the temple, yet later divorce just like normal marriages. Did god get it wrong? |
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#4780 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Here Now
Posts: 9,558
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#4781 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,679
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Yes, that's a good point. And of course the martyr syndrome can appear in lots of places unconnected to religion, from the "99%" who complain about being helplessly exploited by banks and Wall Street, to disgruntled spouses or ex-spouses always complaining about their partners or ex-partners.
And, of course, in those cases too, it's the ones who continually revel in their problems who are most apt to stand out and be noticed, while others just quietly make the best of things, or seek attention long enough to get help with their problems and then move on. |
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#4782 |
Piggish
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Blandings Castle
Posts: 2,210
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In my experience, divorce has always been seen as fairly benign in the Mormon culture, so long as it's strictly a civil divorce. It's only a temple divorce that's a problem, and IIRC the temple divorce is a long and time-consuming process. Also, just because you apply for one, doesn't mean that you'll receive one. So many couples just get divorced civilly, and you end up with the odd situation where a man will be married in the temple to both his ex-wife/wives and his current wife.
Of course, a woman cannot be sealed to more than one man, so if she wants to be re-married in the temple, she must be granted a temple divorce before this can happen. Or she can just marry civilly and forget the temple marriage. She'd still be married to her first husband by temple standards. I believe the rate of divorce among Mormons is roughly equivalent to the non-Mormon population, but the rate of temple divorce is only about 6%. |
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One prefers, of course, on all occasions to be stainless and above reproach, but, failing that, the next best thing is unquestionably to have got rid of the body. ― P.G. Wodehouse |
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#4783 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 8,292
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#4784 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Next door to Florida Man, world's worst superhero.
Posts: 15,665
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#4785 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,885
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#4786 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,885
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#4787 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 8,292
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#4788 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Next door to Florida Man, world's worst superhero.
Posts: 15,665
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#4789 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 8,292
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#4790 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Next door to Florida Man, world's worst superhero.
Posts: 15,665
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It has it's moments. Why you'd think it is worthwhile to engage a DC commuter in a deep philosophical discussion is beyond me. We pretty much all think the country will collapse if we don't get to work on time or will KILL anyone who gets in the way of us returning to our homes at a decent hour in the evening. I hope the LDS only send the bravest of the brave to DC to work the Metro stops.
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#4791 |
Mormon Atheist
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,134
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__________________
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#4792 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Next door to Florida Man, world's worst superhero.
Posts: 15,665
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#4793 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 8,292
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It occurs to me that a "Black Russian" has got to be one of the most evil things in the universe to a Mormon. It has alcohol in the form of a coffee liquor AND the name references a dark skinned person.
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#4794 |
post-pre-born
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 22,553
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Darn good thing its not a "Negro Russian".
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#4795 |
Mormon Atheist
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,134
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__________________
Ego, ain't it a bitch? |
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#4796 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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#4797 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Here Now
Posts: 9,558
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LOL!!!
Ok, I keep seeing this reference about the definition of the word "negro", and the Mormon Church. I understand about the racism inherent in the BoM, and the fact that fair skinned people are supposed to be delightsome, before the lord. But, what gives here? Why would you need a church leader to tell you if someone is a negro? Thanks in advance. |
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#4798 |
Piggish
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Blandings Castle
Posts: 2,210
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It's a reference to an earlier drift in the thread where Janadele talked about Negros not being able to hold the priesthood in the past, but when asked specifically could not or refused to, explain what "Negro" meant. She claimed it's not skin color, or African heritage. Eventually it seemed to come down to the church leaders could tell 'em when they see 'em.
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One prefers, of course, on all occasions to be stainless and above reproach, but, failing that, the next best thing is unquestionably to have got rid of the body. ― P.G. Wodehouse |
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#4799 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Here Now
Posts: 9,558
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We all probably know how the word "******" is used today among younger blacks, and other races as well. But, I also know that the term ******, or niggardly discribes someone who is stingy, or miserly.
I don't suppose that's what the mormons mean, though. EDIT: Hmm, interesting. I guess the JREF finds the N-word offensive. |
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#4800 |
Piggish
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Blandings Castle
Posts: 2,210
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Mormons specifically meant black people when they referred to Negros. There were several quotations from different prophets that made it clear beyond all reasonable doubt that from Brigham Young's leadership until the 1970s, black men could not hold the priesthood, and that the "skin of blackness" was a curse from god. But Janadele refused to admit it, no matter how much evidence was posted.
Behold the power of religious denial. |
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One prefers, of course, on all occasions to be stainless and above reproach, but, failing that, the next best thing is unquestionably to have got rid of the body. ― P.G. Wodehouse |
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