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Old 27th December 2012, 04:16 PM   #41
ArchieGoodwin
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Keep in mind that Janadele is a Mormon and I'm an atheist (the church counts me a Mormon as my name is still in their records).

And to be fair, though I follow blogs and news on Mormonism and though I get lots of information from friends and family, I've not been active for years. I'm sure Janadele would prefer to speak for herself. But I'm happy to offer an opinion.

ETA: I stopped attending church almost two decades ago. Wow.
Sure, I'm just waiting for her to weigh in on anything in this thread outside of this lone remark:

Quote:
Jason, this thread has evolved from another thread in which off topic questions re LDS where being asked. Hence the generality of the title.
So far it seems I'm talking to you instead. And the OP is still really, uh, whatever man.
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Old 27th December 2012, 04:24 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by hud View Post
Sure, I'm just waiting for her to weigh in on anything in this thread outside of this lone remark:

So far it seems I'm talking to you instead. And the OP is still really, uh, whatever man.
Understood. Ask away and I'll respond as best I can. I graduated seminary (the Mormon version) and I have spent a lifetime studying Mormonism.
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Old 27th December 2012, 04:56 PM   #43
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Lightbulb

Sorry Halley, I do not have a link / reference at present, I will let you know when I find one.
Gender is an eternal characteristic. There is no negotiation on the gender of our Spirit. To abide by Eternal Law celibacy is the only option if for some genuine reason the gender of the Spirit is unknown.
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
...did you ever find a source on an official LDS stance on if Hermaphrodites can marry? You still haven't answered that one...
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Old 27th December 2012, 05:01 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Sorry Halley, I do not have a link / reference at present, I will let you know when I find one.
Gender is an eternal characteristic. There is no negotiation on the gender of our Spirit. To abide by Eternal Law celibacy is the only option if for some genuine reason the gender of the Spirit is unknown.
So how do I check my spirits gender, is it obvious or is does it require a study of the spirits plumage like a bird?

Will my spirit object to me have a grab around just to make sure?

and of course, most importantly, Evidence a spirit even exists.
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Old 27th December 2012, 05:04 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Gender is an eternal characteristic. There is no negotiation on the gender of our Spirit.
To begin with, this is contradicted by biological evidence. There is a large body of work to support the idea that even if we have a spirit, we as individuals have contradictory perceptions.

Split brain with one half atheist and one half theist

What gender is the spirit of a hermaphrodite or a person with Klinefelter syndrome?
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Old 27th December 2012, 05:32 PM   #46
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Rand, the previous post to which you refer is the answer.
Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Gender is an eternal characteristic. There is no negotiation on the gender of our Spirit. To abide by Eternal Law celibacy is the only option if for some genuine reason the gender of the Spirit is unknown.

Last edited by Janadele; 27th December 2012 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 27th December 2012, 05:38 PM   #47
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LDS are the initials of retired porn actor, Long Dong Silver
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Old 27th December 2012, 05:42 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Rand, the previous post to which you refer is the answer.
It's fairly obvious that your "answer" didn't work. This can be for several reasons--for example, your answer may not actually be an answer, it may not be a sufficient answer, or it may be that the person you're talking to doesn't understand your answer. Repeating it will not work.

You also haven't addressed any of the issues I brought up.
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Old 27th December 2012, 05:43 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
The core point I was trying to make is that God gives considerable latitude on what you can and cannot do under duress, meaning the range of things for which you would be punished by God is far narrower that the strict letter of the law would suggest. This means the decision of if one should obey a given law in a given circumstance is not just a question of "Will I be punished?" but one of "Is it moral to break this law at this time?"
I believe this is a matter of interpretation. There are too many scriptures dealing in absolutes (as given by an absolute authority who can see ahead in time and space), again depending on interpretation
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Old 27th December 2012, 05:45 PM   #50
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To follow up:

Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
To begin with, this is contradicted by biological evidence. There is a large body of work to support the idea that even if we have a spirit, we as individuals have contradictory perceptions.

Split brain with one half atheist and one half theist

What gender is the spirit of a hermaphrodite or a person with Klinefelter syndrome?
When I first attended University my major was Psychology. Later I changed it to Computer Sci but not before I had taken a number of courses in psychology and sociology.

For the last 10 years I have been studying mind science including neuroscience, psychology, philosophy of mind and behavior. IMO:
  • Nothing in mind science makes sense in light of an ever lasting soul (dualism).
  • Nothing in mind science makes sense except in the Light of Evolution.
Gender perceptions and gender disorders can be explained by evolutionary biology. You won't find anything in the Bible, Book of Mormon or any religious text that will enlighten.
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Old 27th December 2012, 05:47 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Rand, the previous post to which you refer is the answer.
Quote:
Gender is an eternal characteristic. There is no negotiation on the gender of our Spirit. To abide by Eternal Law celibacy is the only option if for some genuine reason the gender of the Spirit is unknown.
That explains absolutely nothing (see post #50)
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:10 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Rand, the previous post to which you refer is the answer.
So what gender is a hermaphrodite?
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:16 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also known as LDS /Mormon, is a Christian denomination, but is neither Protestant nor Catholic... it is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, with eternal doctrines and teachings dating back to the days of Adam, and to our pre mortal existence.
I'm from Merthyr Tydfil. Does the name mean anything to you?
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:23 PM   #54
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Rand, That is the answer, whether anyone likes it or not. That is the truth. Further elaboration could only be speculation.

Our Heavenly Father does not reveal all to us, and to those who reject what He has revealed, even less is given.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:28 PM   #55
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Yes, I have been there. It is a beautiful area of Wales.
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
I'm from Merthyr Tydfil. Does the name mean anything to you?
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:33 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Our Heavenly Father does not reveal all to us, and to those who reject what He has revealed, even less is given.
No. I have just as much as any believer, more, in fact. I do not labour under a primitive superstitious delusion and a religion based on a fraud with disappearing gold plates.

Last edited by dafydd; 27th December 2012 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:35 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
That explains absolutely nothing (see post #50)
What do you expect from a religion that came about before the scientific study of human sexuality?
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:40 PM   #58
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The Eternal Gospel has existed since the beginning of time.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:42 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
The Eternal Gospel has existed since the beginning of time.
So it says, yes. Lucky a known conman came along and found it again for everyone.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:43 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
The Eternal Gospel has existed since the beginning of time.
Must be hard, following a Gospel of Hate like that.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:48 PM   #61
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Mark Twain called the Book Of Mormon ''chloroform in print''. He was right. I tried to read it and it is the most boring work of fiction ever written.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:49 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Rand, That is the answer, whether anyone likes it or not.
It's not an answer. It doesn't explain anything. It doesn't answer the contradictions nor address the biology. It's really weak ad hoc rationalization. Thankfully biologists, sociologists, psychologists, psychiatrists and therapists don't accept your answer. Thankfully we can actually help people live happy fulfilled lives.

Quote:
That is the truth. Further elaboration could only be speculation.

Our Heavenly Father does not reveal all to us, and to those who reject what He has revealed, even less is given.
What good does this do for the people born hermaphrodite or with an ambiguous gender, or any number of other gender disorders?

Tina: I fell in love with a man and I'd like to marry him.
God: Though you have the genitals of a woman you were born with XY chromosomes and no uterus. You are a man. Sorry. No intimacy for you.
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I wonder if they'd think I'd flipped.
If I went to LA, via Omaha.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:51 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
The Eternal Gospel has existed since the beginning of time.
Got any proof of that at all?

*popcorn waiting gif*
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:51 PM   #64
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I wonder why this Heavenly Father gives children cancer? If he was a real father he would have been up before a court for child abuse.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:52 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
Got any proof of that at all?

*popcorn waiting gif*
Where was this gospel when the universe was a quark soup?
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:55 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Rand, That is the answer, whether anyone likes it or not. That is the truth. Further elaboration could only be speculation.

Our Heavenly Father does not reveal all to us, and to those who reject what He has revealed, even less is given.
So your answer is "I can't explain it any better, and if my explanation doesn't make sense it's your fault."

I don't mean that as a dismissal--I'm trying to show you how you sound to others. This rhetorical technique may work well enough for those who agree with you, but as a means of convincing others it sounds like nothing more than your run-of-the-mill post-hoc justifications to cover why you can't explain something.

Again, your communication technique IS NOT WORKING. I put that in caps because it's the important part here.

Quote:
The Eternal Gospel has existed since the beginning of time.
Where?

That's not sarcastic, by the way. I know that decapods existed since the Mesozoic because I can point you to rock units of Mesozoic age that contain decapods. I found them myself. So I can substantiate my claim. Can you do the same? Is there some place where the Eternal Gospel could be located in, say, 5,000 BC?
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:56 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by ShadowSot View Post
What do you expect from a religion that came about before the scientific study of human sexuality?
More to the point a religion that thinks dinosaur bones came from another planet (I wish I was making that up).

LDS Church Institute instructors teach that fossilized dinosaur bones are from creatures that lived on other worlds that were destroyed in the creation of the earth.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:57 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Where was this gospel when the universe was a quark soup?
The flying spaghetti monster was writing it all down at the time, silly.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:57 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
More to the point a religion that thinks dinosaur bones came from another planet (I wish I was making that up).

LDS Church Institute instructors teach that fossilized dinosaur bones are from creatures that lived on other worlds that were destroyed in the creation of the earth.
I....I don't know how to take that. That's just....wow. Can you elaborate? Can a member of the LDS here elaborate? Please? I'm very curious about this. I blame it on the fact that my wife is attempting to get me drunk.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:58 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
The Eternal Gospel has existed since the beginning of time.
But it didn't get promulgated til Joe Smith found the golden plates?

Muslims think the same thing about the Koran.

Joe had Moroni Mohammed had Gabriel.
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:01 PM   #71
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Nothing mythical exists until somebody makes it up.
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:04 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
The Eternal Gospel has existed since the beginning of time.
An empty assertion. For all intents and purposes meaningless to those who don't buy the claims of theology.
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:04 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
So your answer is "I can't explain it any better, and if my explanation doesn't make sense it's your fault."

I don't mean that as a dismissal--I'm trying to show you how you sound to others. This rhetorical technique may work well enough for those who agree with you, but as a means of convincing others it sounds like nothing more than your run-of-the-mill post-hoc justifications to cover why you can't explain something.

Again, your communication technique IS NOT WORKING. I put that in caps because it's the important part here.

Where?

That's not sarcastic, by the way. I know that decapods existed since the Mesozoic because I can point you to rock units of Mesozoic age that contain decapods. I found them myself. So I can substantiate my claim. Can you do the same? Is there some place where the Eternal Gospel could be located in, say, 5,000 BC?
In discussion on another forum, Janadelle showed herself to be unable or unwilling to attempt to provide answers that were in any way her opinion.
All that she'll provide is information available directly from the LDS website.
Hermaphrodites are not addressed on the site, so she has no answer.
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:07 PM   #74
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This is not the place to preach. Janadelle will find no gullible recruits here.
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:10 PM   #75
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Janandelle, which planet are you going to get when you die?
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:10 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
This is not the place to preach. Janadelle will find no gullible recruits here.
I don't think that's what she's going for. Seems instead she prefers to go for the martyr complex.
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:12 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by ShadowSot View Post
I don't think that's what she's going for. Seems instead she prefers to go for the martyr complex.
Merthyr is Welsh for martyr. Merthyr Tydfil is Mormon country. I knew quite a few of the tribe when I lived there. Nice people, but deluded. The biggest problem that the Mormons in Merthyr Tydfil had in the 1960's was preventing certain elements of the local population from stripping the gold leaf from the Mormon church spire.

Last edited by dafydd; 27th December 2012 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:16 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by ShadowSot View Post
In discussion on another forum, Janadelle showed herself to be unable or unwilling to attempt to provide answers that were in any way her opinion.
All that she'll provide is information available directly from the LDS website.
Hermaphrodites are not addressed on the site, so she has no answer.
Plus those websites are limited in their ability to address issues. It's obvious that apologetics for something like hermaphroditism just leads to more and more unanswerable questions.

I was told over and over to put my doubts on a shelf and trust in god. Why did god give me a brain if he wanted me to be a brain dead sheep?
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:23 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
I was told over and over to put my doubts on a shelf and trust in god. Why did god give me a brain if he wanted me to be a brain dead sheep?
That thought has often struck me too. I've been told that I will burn in hell because I am an atheist. But if god made my brain then he made me an atheist so why would he/she/it punish me?
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Old 27th December 2012, 07:25 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Plus those websites are limited in their ability to address issues. It's obvious that apologetics for something like hermaphroditism just leads to more and more unanswerable questions.

I was told over and over to put my doubts on a shelf and trust in god. Why did god give me a brain if he wanted me to be a brain dead sheep?
The point of being given free will is to use it only to obey, or something.
See, forcing someone to follow your will is much grander than just using robots.
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