LDS - Page 5

Mashuna · 28th December 2012, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Actual LDS beliefs and teachings are not off topic... obviously.
Fabrications are.

The point is, most here consider the LDS beliefs and teachings to be fabrications. That's why you're being asked for evidence to support your beliefs. So far, you haven't presented anything of evidentiary value.

dafydd · 28th December 2012, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Actual LDS beliefs and teachings are not off topic... obviously.
Fabrications are.

That's fine, because Mormonism is a fabrication. Do you really believe that you will own a planet when you die?

Craig4 · 28th December 2012, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Actual LDS beliefs and teachings are not off topic... obviously.
Fabrications are.

You mean like cultivated barley in the Americas prior to Columbus?

dafydd · 28th December 2012, 06:26 AM

1) I Nephi 18:21 And it came to pass after they had loosed me, behold, I took the compass, and it did work whither I desired it. And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord; and after I had prayed the winds did cease, and the storm did cease, and there was a great calm.

-The compass was not even invented until 1800 years later.

2) I Nephi 8:25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the a$$ and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper.

-Cows and horses did not exist in the Americas at that time, and would not exist until 2000 years later, when Europeans brought them over.

I Nephi 4:9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

-Steel did not exist in the Americas until Columbus.

Mosiah 7:22 And all this he did, for the sole purpose of bringing this people into subjection or into bondage. And behold, we at this time do pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites, to the amount of one half of our corn, and our barley, and even all our grain of every kind, and one half of the increase of our flocks and our herds; and even one half of all we have or possess the king of the Lamanites doth exact of us, or our lives.

-Barley did not exist in the Americas at that time.

Ether 2:3 And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.

-Honeybees did not exist in the New World until Europeans introduced them in the 1700's.

Joseph Smith really was an ignoramus. How ironic that he called the angel Moroni!

Janadele · 28th December 2012, 06:40 AM

Pup,
The veil which cloaks our remembrances allows recognition of the truths we knew, and also understanding of Eternal Laws... IF we are receptive, these precious truths will be revealed to us from Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted by Pup

If someone names a behavior that's currently forbidden by God, apparently you have a way of knowing whether it's an unchanging eternal principle, or something that could be changed by revelation.

How does one know? What's the scriptural basis that one can use to separate things into those categories?

Lukraak_Sisser · 28th December 2012, 06:45 AM

Well right. A simple question then.
What is it about LDS beliefs that makes them true as opposed to every single other religion on earth that claims the same?
How did YOU Janadele decide 'this one!'?

Janadele · 28th December 2012, 06:54 AM

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint Scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the LDS Church.

Originally Posted by dafydd

Do you really believe that you will own a planet when you die?

Explorer · 28th December 2012, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Pup,
The veil which cloaks our remembrances allows recognition of the truths we knew, and also understanding of Eternal Laws... IF we are receptive, these precious truths will be revealed to us from Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

My sister was very receptive, and was converted to Mormonism very easily. Although she was a good and very much loved, now late sister (was tragically killed in a road accident in 1983), she was also very gullible. She told me once that she was divinely receiving help with her monthly finances, that is the 90% left, after the church took their cut. For her, it wasn't a matter of being prudent and diligent with income and spending, or the math of the household balance sheet. It was her god, miraculously intervening to help her stay in the black each month. I miss her vulnerable innocence, so much.

angrysoba · 28th December 2012, 06:56 AM

Janadele,

Have you ever done missionary work? Just curious.

If so, would you like to tell us where?

Thanks

dafydd · 28th December 2012, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint Scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the LDS Church.

Would you like to comment on the many mistakes that Smith made when he wrote the book? The ''Eternal Truth'' is riddled with inaccuracies. Doesn't that give you pause?

Craig4 · 28th December 2012, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Pup,
The veil which cloaks our remembrances allows recognition of the truths we knew, and also understanding of Eternal Laws... IF we are receptive, these precious truths will be revealed to us from Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Why were the laws presented by such an obvious and shabby liar? You'd think a god would pick someone with at least a little integrity to pass on these laws. Of course this god entity could maybe come and deliver the message himself/herself. That would seem a better plan that entrusting such an important mission to a fraud.

halleyscomet · 28th December 2012, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Mark Twain called the Book Of Mormon ''chloroform in print''. He was right. I tried to read it and it is the most boring work of fiction ever written.

It has its moments. Nephi for example is a prize idiot, constantly screwing up and losing the loyalty of his family. He's easily the single most inept prophet in the entirety of all Judeo-Christian scriptures. His section reads like "Gilligan the Prophet" as played by Jerry Lewis.

Are there any mainstream Mormons who seriously discuss Nephi's chronic incompetence and use it for theological discussion?

Originally Posted by Janadele

The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.

That assertion is demonstrably false. The very existence of nuclear decay and the nuclear power we can derive form it proves the assertion false. More to the point, the ratios of existing elements is consistent with what we know about the fusion of various elements inside of a star. The book "The Disappearing Spoon" has a very easy to understand writeup of this for laymen.

Originally Posted by Dinwar

Where?

That's not sarcastic, by the way. I know that decapods existed since the Mesozoic because I can point you to rock units of Mesozoic age that contain decapods. I found them myself. So I can substantiate my claim. Can you do the same? Is there some place where the Eternal Gospel could be located in, say, 5,000 BC?

As I understand it, the golden plates were brought to the Americas, were lost and the "true" gospel was buried until Smith found the plates and translated them using a magic scrying hat.

Originally Posted by ShadowSot

In discussion on another forum, Janadelle showed herself to be unable or unwilling to attempt to provide answers that were in any way her opinion.
All that she'll provide is information available directly from the LDS website.
Hermaphrodites are not addressed on the site, so she has no answer.

Sadly, I think you're right. I find discussions with her are far less frustrating if you think of her not as a flesh and blood person with a mind of her own, but as an LDS search engine with an incomplete index and limited comprehension of language processing.

halleyscomet · 28th December 2012, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by Mashuna

The point is, most here consider the LDS beliefs and teachings to be fabrications. That's why you're being asked for evidence to support your beliefs. So far, you haven't presented anything of evidentiary value.

That's part of why she was eventually banned from the SGU forum. The specific chain of events is amusing but ultimately it wasn't the plagiarism or lying about the mods that got her booted, but her refusal to actually engage in discussion. She refused to address any criticism beyond attacking the source of the criticism as being anti-Mormon. I don't think she ever gave a theological answerer that wasn't plagiarized or paraphrased from an official LDS source, or at least one that towed the official LDS line.

I'd hoped she would turn over a new leaf and start engaging people in actual discussion. I wanted to see her take the lesson of being booted from the SGU Forum, accept personal responsibility for the poor communication skills that got her booted and try to change.

Skeptic Ginger · 28th December 2012, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Actual LDS beliefs and teachings are not off topic... obviously.
Fabrications are.

How are the LDS beliefs not fabrications?

halleyscomet · 28th December 2012, 08:33 AM

What is the Mormon version of why Christians don't have to keep Kosher?

How does the Mormon church justify following the Leviticus ban on homosexuality but not the other Leviticus purity laws?

tsig · 28th December 2012, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Discussions of actual LDS beliefs is fine... but posting nonsense as being LDS when it is not LDS is not. I do not respond to anti Mormon propaganda. This is my choice and my right. Insults, bullying, and rude demands will not influence nor change my decision to not engage in pointless arguments or discussion on material which is false, misleading garbage. Whereas I will respond to genuine questions or criticisms of actual LDS beliefs.

Why does the Book of Mormon sound so much like Elizabethan English since it's supposed to be a translation of Reformed Egyptian?

thaiboxerken · 28th December 2012, 08:45 AM

Magic panties

dafydd · 28th December 2012, 09:06 AM

"The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James’s translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel — half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern — which was about every sentence or two — he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as ‘exceeding sore,’ ‘and it came to pass,’ etc., and made things satisfactory again. ‘And it came to pass’ was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet."-Mark Twain.

Dinwar · 28th December 2012, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

No that is not the plain truth of the matter... fact is I would have to write a book to do so. Keep to one single topic at a time

I have no sympathy for you. At any point in this conversation you could have (and still can) say "Hey, you know, this is really complicated stuff--so I'm going to focus on X for now. Here's what I think the Mormon stance on X actually is." That would allow you to focus on a single topic instead of the evasions you're currently doing, while still demonstrating a willingness to actually discuss things, something that's currently missing from your posts.

Pup · 28th December 2012, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Pup,
The veil which cloaks our remembrances allows recognition of the truths we knew, and also understanding of Eternal Laws... IF we are receptive, these precious truths will be revealed to us from Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

But according to LDS doctrine, individuals can't receive revelation that would affect the entire church, such as "X is an enternal truth but Y is subject to future revelation." That's what you're doing--choosing what's X and what's Y and announcing it to everyone, without scriptural backing.

For example, according to LDS doctrine, a father could say that God revealed to him that his child should be homeschooled, because he has stewardship over his child and that's the kind of thing God might reveal to him. But God wouldn't say, "your wife should receive the priesthood," without also giving the revelation through the prophet, because that affects the policies of the whole church. Other members would have the right to ignore that message and say that it wasn't from God, while an obedient child should accept that God told her father how she should be educated.

The above is pretty solid LDS doctrine, as far as I understand. For example: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.js...004d82620aRCRD

What you're saying affects the whole church. Unless the prophet, speaking as a prophet, has said that the ban on homosexual acts or marriage will never be lifted, I think, according to church doctrine, such a statement from an individual member could be ignored as not necessarily an accurate reflection of God's intentions.

I would have thought the standard, doctrine-based LDS answer to: "Will the church ever approve of gay marriage?" would be: "We don't know, but if God wants us to, he will reveal it through the prophet"--leaving open the possibility.

Oddly enough, my wife, a current member and returned missionary, answered just as you did and disagreed with my proposed answer above, and she's usually pretty solid at doctrinal sources, but she also couldn't offer a doctrine-based reason for how she could know which things were eternal and which might be subject to future revelation.

I wonder if this is a case where the cultural aspect of the church outweighs the doctrine-based aspect, and the idea of gay couples being married in the temple is just too squicky for conservative church members to contemplate.

Ambrosia · 28th December 2012, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Yes, I have been there. [Merthyr Tydfil] It is a beautiful area of Wales.

Really?

I used to live in Brecon. I have been to Merthyr Tydfil many times. Beautiful is about the last adjective I would use to describe it.

In my experience it was a run down old Welsh valley mining town. Though I understand it has a fascinating history and was a major player in the industrial revolution, it just isn't beautiful.

The surrounding area is both spectacular and beautiful, the town itself isn't.

Meh. Eye of the beholder and all that I guess.

Ambrosia · 28th December 2012, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

. Folks, I was her. I spent two years debating with people trying to save them. Plus after my mission I spent many years trying counter lies and propaganda against Mormonism.

How did you get from there to Mormon atheist?

I was brought up in a Baptist Christian household, my parents and one of my siblings remain staunch believers, I'd consider myself agnostic today.

I believe in live and let live and have somewhat of a gentlemans agreement with my family. They don't preach at me and I don't preach at them.

It saves on a lot of arguments.

I'm curious as from the outside looking in, Mormonism to me seems completely off the scale nuts compared to some other variants on Christianity.

catsmate · 28th December 2012, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

The Eternal Gospel has existed since the beginning of time.

And gets changed whenever the "church" feel it convenient.

Originally Posted by Janadele

<snip>The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning.
One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator.

Really? So Mormons now deny the reality of the Big Bang, fission, fusion and radioactive decay.............

I wonder if technetium is the Mormon equivalent to kryptonite.

Originally Posted by Aepervius

In fact most christian are "paulinist"

.

Now that's an interesting point, the degree to which today's xian sects relate to the Petrine/Pauline divide.

RandFan · 28th December 2012, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Yeah, you're probably right. I have debated with Jehovah's Witnesses who often say give the same "I refer you to the dogma of XYZ" as their answer to questions or arguments that are about the very dogma of XYZ.

Me: "How can I trust the accuracy of this Biblical source?"
JW: "Because the Bible tells us it is the Word of the Lord." etc...

Interestingly, the Mormon missionaries I meet here in Japan have never tried to overtly proselytize to me but have generally been friendly and polite. Is that because they are also asked to try to raise the image of the Church or could it be that most of them just happen to be nice people?

However, this kind of thing is the type of thing I am talking about:

Oh I understand. It's frustrating. Religion is a parasitic meme that rewires the brain. It evolved with self protecting strategies. If you've not seen it I recommend Dan Dennetts's video on the Lancet Fluke. A biological parasite that rewires the brains of its hosts for its own purposes. Dennett makes the case that religious memes do the same to their hosts.

dafydd · 28th December 2012, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Ambrosia

Really?

I used to live in Brecon. I have been to Merthyr Tydfil many times. Beautiful is about the last adjective I would use to describe it.

In my experience it was a run down old Welsh valley mining town. Though I understand it has a fascinating history and was a major player in the industrial revolution, it just isn't beautiful.

The surrounding area is both spectacular and beautiful, the town itself isn't.

Meh. Eye of the beholder and all that I guess.

The area is nice. Merthyr Tydfil is a dump. It has a Mormon church. Not that two are connected.

RandFan · 28th December 2012, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Ambrosia

How did you get from there to Mormon atheist?

To much detail to go into here so I'l summarize and edit most of it out. There were some epiphanies along the way. One while I was on my mission. I wanted desperately to convert people and I spent much of my time thinking about why it was so difficult. I understood that until people question their held beliefs they couldn't find the truth. So I spent a lot of time thinking of the best ways to get people to question themselves. And it occurred to me, if I wanted them to question their beliefs, shouldn't I question mine? That caused some cognitive dissonance and more reflection. 15 years later I was introduced to the Monty Hall problem. I refused to accept that my intuition could be wrong and set about trying to "solve" the problem. I realized that the only way to reconcile my belief with statistical fact was to question my belief and not the facts. Elementary. Then it was James Randi > skepticism > psychology > philosophy > questioning > debating > 5 stages of grief.

Quote:

I was brought up in a Baptist Christian household, my parents and one of my siblings remain staunch believers, I'd consider myself agnostic today.

I believe in live and let live and have somewhat of a gentlemans agreement with my family. They don't preach at me and I don't preach at them.

It saves on a lot of arguments.

I'm curious as from the outside looking in, Mormonism to me seems completely off the scale nuts compared to some other variants on Christianity.

Understood, nuts is relative. Looking back Noah's Ark, talking snakes, witches, talking donkeys, walking on water, water into wine, living for 3 days in the belly of a fish, pretty damn nuts.

RandFan · 28th December 2012, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Actual LDS beliefs and teachings are not off topic... obviously.
Fabrications are.

People are posting their evidence for the claims. You can't simply dismiss their evidence as a fabrication. You need to address the claims and the evidence for those claims.

Mojo · 28th December 2012, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also known as LDS /Mormon, is a Christian denomination, but is neither Protestant nor Catholic... it is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, with eternal doctrines and teachings dating back to the days of Adam, and to our pre mortal existence.

How many One True Churches are there? Has anyone been keeping count?

Janadele · 28th December 2012, 11:31 AM

You are blessed with such a wife. My best wishes to her.

Originally Posted by Pup

... Oddly enough, my wife, a current member and returned missionary, answered just as you did and disagreed with my proposed answer above, and she's usually pretty solid at doctrinal sources, but she also couldn't offer a doctrine-based reason for how she could know which things were eternal and which might be subject to future revelation...

DragonLady · 28th December 2012, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Sadly, I think you're right. I find discussions with her are far less frustrating if you think of her not as a flesh and blood person with a mind of her own, but as an LDS search engine with an incomplete index and limited comprehension of language processing.

This. Mormon beliefs read like an extended session with Cleverbot. Having been raised in a hellfire-and-dalmations church myself, I'm overly familiar with people who cannot even hold a reasonable conversation because they just can't think past the doctrine they've been taught. There simply is no "bigger picture" for them to contemplate.

RandFan · 28th December 2012, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by DragonLady

This. Mormon beliefs read like an extended session with Cleverbot. Having been raised in a hellfire-and-dalmations church myself, I'm overly familiar with people who cannot even hold a reasonable conversation because they just can't think past the doctrine they've been taught. There simply is no "bigger picture" for them to contemplate.

Exactly.

Janadele · 28th December 2012, 11:42 AM

Your blessed sister will have received her reward for her faithfulness. Rejoice in this knowledge and follow her path

Originally Posted by Explorer

My sister was very receptive, and was converted to Mormonism very easily. Although she was a good and very much loved, now late sister (was tragically killed in a road accident in 1983), she was also very gullible. She told me once that she was divinely receiving help with her monthly finances, that is the 90% left, after the church took their cut. For her, it wasn't a matter of being prudent and diligent with income and spending, or the math of the household balance sheet. It was her god, miraculously intervening to help her stay in the black each month. I miss her vulnerable innocence, so much.

RandFan · 28th December 2012, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Janadele

Your blessed sister will have received her reward for her faithfulness. Rejoice in this knowledge and follow her path

The glory of god is ~~intelligence~~ lemmings.

Janadele, enough with the rhetoric. Could you respond substantively?

DragonLady · 28th December 2012, 11:52 AM

Janadele (and other Mormons who feel qualified), I have a question for YOU. The answer is subjective, and requires YOUR opinion. I'm sure it's not going to be found in the scriptures, or the official church doctrine. It's also possible that as you live in Australia, and may have never been to Salt Lake City, that you have no idea what I'm talking about. If that's the case, I understand completely.

Question: Why do so many LDS members appear to "glow"?

I swear, the vast majority of those born and raised in the LDS church shine. They have something peculiar to their complexions. I kinda noticed it several times with regard to various individuals when I attended the University of Utah. But when I attended an LDS church service, I looked out over the congregation and was suddenly struck by the idea that if we turned out the lights the whole group would glow in the dark.

I've been all around the country. As a result of being in dozens of foster homes, I've attended all kinds of churches. I've lived with health nuts, booze hounds, and everyone between. I've seen groups of people with alll kinds of common denominators. But the LDS folks are the only ones I've ever seen that shine like they're carrying lightbulbs in their garments.

I welcome your opinion(s).

Nay_Sayer · 28th December 2012, 11:57 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosex...ts#cite_note-8

So I'll ask, Why is the LDS so against two same sex people wanting to be married?

(I already know the answer)

Ambrosia · 28th December 2012, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

To much detail to go into here so I'l summarize

Thanks for the answer.

Quote:

Understood, nuts is relative. Looking back Noah's Ark, talking snakes, witches, talking donkeys, walking on water, water into wine, living for 3 days in the belly of a fish, pretty damn nuts.

No argument from me there.

I view religion as a book of stories that religious leaders use to get people to give them money and power. Same way that parents make **** up to get their kids to behave.

"Follow these rules, or burn in eternal hell" "Be good or santa won't bring you presents" "rat on your pop and Keyser Soze will get ya"

Some stories are more fantastical than others.

I understand that people can get a lot of comfort from religion. I get that often the community is a very good thing. I think that in fact the basic teaching of Christianity, "do onto others, as you'd want them to do onto you" is a really good tenet to live by.

If you could distill that out of religion and dump all of the other baggage, I might sign up for that one.

Agatha · 28th December 2012, 12:03 PM

Randfan, that's admirable. I'm in awe of how much work and soul-searching you must have done to critically examine your previous faith and seen it for the con-job it is.

halleyscomet · 28th December 2012, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Ambrosia

I think that in fact the basic teaching of Christianity, "do onto others, as you'd want them to do onto you" is a really good tenet to live by.

If you could distill that out of religion and dump all of the other baggage, I might sign up for that one.

The "Golden Rule" has been articulated by just about every major religion out there at one point or another. You might want to look into some of the agnostic / atheist takes on Buddhism.

Are Skepticism and Buddhism compatible?

Andrew Wiggin · 28th December 2012, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Janadele

In that you are correct, it was not. But neither were the opposing posts.

As I consider my earlier previous posts were worthwhile, and you do not, then what is the point ?

Theology can be considered a subset of logic, as long as the baseline assumption is that god exists and all else is logically deduced from that. While I disagree with the underlying assumption, as it is its self unsupported, I respect the practice of theology and theologians. On the other hand, what you're doing when you put forth your dogma as proof of your dogma is not logic or theology, but merely a more than typically obvious example of circular reasoning. When I say 'say something intelligent' that could just as easily be said 'say something that can be supported by logic and isn't dependent on circular reasoning' or 'show us that you're a thinking, reasoning being, and not a gibberish reciting tool'

tsig · 28th December 2012, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Mojo

How many One True Churches are there? Has anyone been keeping count?

Every church is the One True Church.

28th December 2012, 05:41 AM	#161
Mashuna Ovis ex Machina Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,856	Originally Posted by Janadele Actual LDS beliefs and teachings are not off topic... obviously. Fabrications are. The point is, most here consider the LDS beliefs and teachings to be fabrications. That's why you're being asked for evidence to support your beliefs. So far, you haven't presented anything of evidentiary value.
Mashuna Ovis ex Machina Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,856

28th December 2012, 05:57 AM	#162
dafydd Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 35,398	Originally Posted by Janadele Actual LDS beliefs and teachings are not off topic... obviously. Fabrications are. That's fine, because Mormonism is a fabrication. Do you really believe that you will own a planet when you die?
dafydd Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 35,398

28th December 2012, 06:05 AM	#163
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Next door to Florida Man, world's worst superhero. Posts: 12,239	Originally Posted by Janadele Actual LDS beliefs and teachings are not off topic... obviously. Fabrications are. You mean like cultivated barley in the Americas prior to Columbus?
	Last edited by Craig4; 28th December 2012 at 06:11 AM.

28th December 2012, 06:26 AM	#164
dafydd Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 35,398	1) I Nephi 18:21 And it came to pass after they had loosed me, behold, I took the compass, and it did work whither I desired it. And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord; and after I had prayed the winds did cease, and the storm did cease, and there was a great calm. -The compass was not even invented until 1800 years later. 2) I Nephi 8:25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the a$$ and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper. -Cows and horses did not exist in the Americas at that time, and would not exist until 2000 years later, when Europeans brought them over. I Nephi 4:9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel. -Steel did not exist in the Americas until Columbus. Mosiah 7:22 And all this he did, for the sole purpose of bringing this people into subjection or into bondage. And behold, we at this time do pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites, to the amount of one half of our corn, and our barley, and even all our grain of every kind, and one half of the increase of our flocks and our herds; and even one half of all we have or possess the king of the Lamanites doth exact of us, or our lives. -Barley did not exist in the Americas at that time. Ether 2:3 And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind. -Honeybees did not exist in the New World until Europeans introduced them in the 1700's. Joseph Smith really was an ignoramus. How ironic that he called the angel Moroni!
dafydd Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 35,398	Last edited by dafydd; 28th December 2012 at 06:28 AM.

28th December 2012, 06:40 AM	#165
Janadele Banned Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 2,515	Pup, The veil which cloaks our remembrances allows recognition of the truths we knew, and also understanding of Eternal Laws... IF we are receptive, these precious truths will be revealed to us from Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Originally Posted by Pup If someone names a behavior that's currently forbidden by God, apparently you have a way of knowing whether it's an unchanging eternal principle, or something that could be changed by revelation. How does one know? What's the scriptural basis that one can use to separate things into those categories?
Janadele Banned Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 2,515

28th December 2012, 06:45 AM	#166
Lukraak_Sisser Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,634	Well right. A simple question then. What is it about LDS beliefs that makes them true as opposed to every single other religion on earth that claims the same? How did YOU Janadele decide 'this one!'?

28th December 2012, 06:54 AM	#167
Janadele Banned Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 2,515	No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint Scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the LDS Church. Originally Posted by dafydd Do you really believe that you will own a planet when you die?
Janadele Banned Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 2,515

28th December 2012, 06:55 AM	#168
Explorer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 1,081	Originally Posted by Janadele Pup, The veil which cloaks our remembrances allows recognition of the truths we knew, and also understanding of Eternal Laws... IF we are receptive, these precious truths will be revealed to us from Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. My sister was very receptive, and was converted to Mormonism very easily. Although she was a good and very much loved, now late sister (was tragically killed in a road accident in 1983), she was also very gullible. She told me once that she was divinely receiving help with her monthly finances, that is the 90% left, after the church took their cut. For her, it wasn't a matter of being prudent and diligent with income and spending, or the math of the household balance sheet. It was her god, miraculously intervening to help her stay in the black each month. I miss her vulnerable innocence, so much.

28th December 2012, 06:56 AM	#169
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 20,671	Janadele, Have you ever done missionary work? Just curious. If so, would you like to tell us where? Thanks

28th December 2012, 06:58 AM	#170
dafydd Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 35,398	Originally Posted by Janadele No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint Scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the LDS Church. Would you like to comment on the many mistakes that Smith made when he wrote the book? The ''Eternal Truth'' is riddled with inaccuracies. Doesn't that give you pause?
dafydd Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 35,398

28th December 2012, 07:11 AM	#171
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Next door to Florida Man, world's worst superhero. Posts: 12,239	Originally Posted by Janadele Pup, The veil which cloaks our remembrances allows recognition of the truths we knew, and also understanding of Eternal Laws... IF we are receptive, these precious truths will be revealed to us from Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Why were the laws presented by such an obvious and shabby liar? You'd think a god would pick someone with at least a little integrity to pass on these laws. Of course this god entity could maybe come and deliver the message himself/herself. That would seem a better plan that entrusting such an important mission to a fraud.

28th December 2012, 07:11 AM	#172
halleyscomet Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 4,380	Originally Posted by dafydd Mark Twain called the Book Of Mormon ''chloroform in print''. He was right. I tried to read it and it is the most boring work of fiction ever written. It has its moments. Nephi for example is a prize idiot, constantly screwing up and losing the loyalty of his family. He's easily the single most inept prophet in the entirety of all Judeo-Christian scriptures. His section reads like "Gilligan the Prophet" as played by Jerry Lewis. Are there any mainstream Mormons who seriously discuss Nephi's chronic incompetence and use it for theological discussion? Originally Posted by Janadele The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning. That assertion is demonstrably false. The very existence of nuclear decay and the nuclear power we can derive form it proves the assertion false. More to the point, the ratios of existing elements is consistent with what we know about the fusion of various elements inside of a star. The book "The Disappearing Spoon" has a very easy to understand writeup of this for laymen. Originally Posted by Dinwar Where? That's not sarcastic, by the way. I know that decapods existed since the Mesozoic because I can point you to rock units of Mesozoic age that contain decapods. I found them myself. So I can substantiate my claim. Can you do the same? Is there some place where the Eternal Gospel could be located in, say, 5,000 BC? As I understand it, the golden plates were brought to the Americas, were lost and the "true" gospel was buried until Smith found the plates and translated them using a magic scrying hat. Originally Posted by ShadowSot In discussion on another forum, Janadelle showed herself to be unable or unwilling to attempt to provide answers that were in any way her opinion. All that she'll provide is information available directly from the LDS website. Hermaphrodites are not addressed on the site, so she has no answer. Sadly, I think you're right. I find discussions with her are far less frustrating if you think of her not as a flesh and blood person with a mind of her own, but as an LDS search engine with an incomplete index and limited comprehension of language processing.
	Last edited by halleyscomet; 28th December 2012 at 07:12 AM.

28th December 2012, 07:27 AM	#173
halleyscomet Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 4,380	Originally Posted by Mashuna The point is, most here consider the LDS beliefs and teachings to be fabrications. That's why you're being asked for evidence to support your beliefs. So far, you haven't presented anything of evidentiary value. That's part of why she was eventually banned from the SGU forum. The specific chain of events is amusing but ultimately it wasn't the plagiarism or lying about the mods that got her booted, but her refusal to actually engage in discussion. She refused to address any criticism beyond attacking the source of the criticism as being anti-Mormon. I don't think she ever gave a theological answerer that wasn't plagiarized or paraphrased from an official LDS source, or at least one that towed the official LDS line. I'd hoped she would turn over a new leaf and start engaging people in actual discussion. I wanted to see her take the lesson of being booted from the SGU Forum, accept personal responsibility for the poor communication skills that got her booted and try to change.

28th December 2012, 07:44 AM	#174
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 55,766	Originally Posted by Janadele Actual LDS beliefs and teachings are not off topic... obviously. Fabrications are. How are the LDS beliefs not fabrications?
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, Pubbie Party, ~~Repubs "Republics" and Republic Party~~ in response.)

28th December 2012, 08:33 AM	#175
halleyscomet Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 4,380	What is the Mormon version of why Christians don't have to keep Kosher? How does the Mormon church justify following the Leviticus ban on homosexuality but not the other Leviticus purity laws?
	Last edited by halleyscomet; 28th December 2012 at 08:48 AM.

28th December 2012, 08:34 AM	#176
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 39,049	Originally Posted by Janadele Discussions of actual LDS beliefs is fine... but posting nonsense as being LDS when it is not LDS is not. I do not respond to anti Mormon propaganda. This is my choice and my right. Insults, bullying, and rude demands will not influence nor change my decision to not engage in pointless arguments or discussion on material which is false, misleading garbage. Whereas I will respond to genuine questions or criticisms of actual LDS beliefs. Why does the Book of Mormon sound so much like Elizabethan English since it's supposed to be a translation of Reformed Egyptian?

28th December 2012, 08:45 AM	#177
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 26,483	Magic panties
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

28th December 2012, 09:06 AM	#178
dafydd Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 35,398	"The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James’s translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel — half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern — which was about every sentence or two — he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as ‘exceeding sore,’ ‘and it came to pass,’ etc., and made things satisfactory again. ‘And it came to pass’ was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet."-Mark Twain.
dafydd Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 35,398

28th December 2012, 09:14 AM	#179
Dinwar Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 16,674	Originally Posted by Janadele No that is not the plain truth of the matter... fact is I would have to write a book to do so. Keep to one single topic at a time I have no sympathy for you. At any point in this conversation you could have (and still can) say "Hey, you know, this is really complicated stuff--so I'm going to focus on X for now. Here's what I think the Mormon stance on X actually is." That would allow you to focus on a single topic instead of the evasions you're currently doing, while still demonstrating a willingness to actually discuss things, something that's currently missing from your posts.

28th December 2012, 09:15 AM	#180
Pup Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6,439	Originally Posted by Janadele Pup, The veil which cloaks our remembrances allows recognition of the truths we knew, and also understanding of Eternal Laws... IF we are receptive, these precious truths will be revealed to us from Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. But according to LDS doctrine, individuals can't receive revelation that would affect the entire church, such as "X is an enternal truth but Y is subject to future revelation." That's what you're doing--choosing what's X and what's Y and announcing it to everyone, without scriptural backing. For example, according to LDS doctrine, a father could say that God revealed to him that his child should be homeschooled, because he has stewardship over his child and that's the kind of thing God might reveal to him. But God wouldn't say, "your wife should receive the priesthood," without also giving the revelation through the prophet, because that affects the policies of the whole church. Other members would have the right to ignore that message and say that it wasn't from God, while an obedient child should accept that God told her father how she should be educated. The above is pretty solid LDS doctrine, as far as I understand. For example: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.js...004d82620aRCRD What you're saying affects the whole church. Unless the prophet, speaking as a prophet, has said that the ban on homosexual acts or marriage will never be lifted, I think, according to church doctrine, such a statement from an individual member could be ignored as not necessarily an accurate reflection of God's intentions. I would have thought the standard, doctrine-based LDS answer to: "Will the church ever approve of gay marriage?" would be: "We don't know, but if God wants us to, he will reveal it through the prophet"--leaving open the possibility. Oddly enough, my wife, a current member and returned missionary, answered just as you did and disagreed with my proposed answer above, and she's usually pretty solid at doctrinal sources, but she also couldn't offer a doctrine-based reason for how she could know which things were eternal and which might be subject to future revelation. I wonder if this is a case where the cultural aspect of the church outweighs the doctrine-based aspect, and the idea of gay couples being married in the temple is just too squicky for conservative church members to contemplate.
Pup Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6,439

28th December 2012, 09:39 AM	#181
Ambrosia Good of the Fods Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2,182	Originally Posted by Janadele Yes, I have been there. [Merthyr Tydfil] It is a beautiful area of Wales. Really? I used to live in Brecon. I have been to Merthyr Tydfil many times. Beautiful is about the last adjective I would use to describe it. In my experience it was a run down old Welsh valley mining town. Though I understand it has a fascinating history and was a major player in the industrial revolution, it just isn't beautiful. The surrounding area is both spectacular and beautiful, the town itself isn't. Meh. Eye of the beholder and all that I guess.

28th December 2012, 09:53 AM	#182
Ambrosia Good of the Fods Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2,182	Originally Posted by RandFan . Folks, I was her. I spent two years debating with people trying to save them. Plus after my mission I spent many years trying counter lies and propaganda against Mormonism. How did you get from there to Mormon atheist? I was brought up in a Baptist Christian household, my parents and one of my siblings remain staunch believers, I'd consider myself agnostic today. I believe in live and let live and have somewhat of a gentlemans agreement with my family. They don't preach at me and I don't preach at them. It saves on a lot of arguments. I'm curious as from the outside looking in, Mormonism to me seems completely off the scale nuts compared to some other variants on Christianity.

28th December 2012, 10:20 AM	#183
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 17,798	Originally Posted by Janadele The Eternal Gospel has existed since the beginning of time. And gets changed whenever the "church" feel it convenient. Originally Posted by Janadele <snip>The elements are eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning. One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organizing the existing matter available, is a creator. Really? So Mormons now deny the reality of the Big Bang, fission, fusion and radioactive decay............. I wonder if technetium is the Mormon equivalent to kryptonite. Originally Posted by Aepervius In fact most christian are "paulinist" . Now that's an interesting point, the degree to which today's xian sects relate to the Petrine/Pauline divide.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

28th December 2012, 10:44 AM	#184
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 60,136	Originally Posted by angrysoba Yeah, you're probably right. I have debated with Jehovah's Witnesses who often say give the same "I refer you to the dogma of XYZ" as their answer to questions or arguments that are about the very dogma of XYZ. Me: "How can I trust the accuracy of this Biblical source?" JW: "Because the Bible tells us it is the Word of the Lord." etc... Interestingly, the Mormon missionaries I meet here in Japan have never tried to overtly proselytize to me but have generally been friendly and polite. Is that because they are also asked to try to raise the image of the Church or could it be that most of them just happen to be nice people? However, this kind of thing is the type of thing I am talking about: Oh I understand. It's frustrating. Religion is a parasitic meme that rewires the brain. It evolved with self protecting strategies. If you've not seen it I recommend Dan Dennetts's video on the Lancet Fluke. A biological parasite that rewires the brains of its hosts for its own purposes. Dennett makes the case that religious memes do the same to their hosts.
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 60,136	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch?

28th December 2012, 11:04 AM	#185
dafydd Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 35,398	Originally Posted by Ambrosia Really? I used to live in Brecon. I have been to Merthyr Tydfil many times. Beautiful is about the last adjective I would use to describe it. In my experience it was a run down old Welsh valley mining town. Though I understand it has a fascinating history and was a major player in the industrial revolution, it just isn't beautiful. The surrounding area is both spectacular and beautiful, the town itself isn't. Meh. Eye of the beholder and all that I guess. The area is nice. Merthyr Tydfil is a dump. It has a Mormon church. Not that two are connected.
dafydd Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 35,398	Last edited by dafydd; 28th December 2012 at 11:07 AM.

28th December 2012, 11:04 AM	#186
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 60,136	Originally Posted by Ambrosia How did you get from there to Mormon atheist? To much detail to go into here so I'l summarize and edit most of it out. There were some epiphanies along the way. One while I was on my mission. I wanted desperately to convert people and I spent much of my time thinking about why it was so difficult. I understood that until people question their held beliefs they couldn't find the truth. So I spent a lot of time thinking of the best ways to get people to question themselves. And it occurred to me, if I wanted them to question their beliefs, shouldn't I question mine? That caused some cognitive dissonance and more reflection. 15 years later I was introduced to the Monty Hall problem. I refused to accept that my intuition could be wrong and set about trying to "solve" the problem. I realized that the only way to reconcile my belief with statistical fact was to question my belief and not the facts. Elementary. Then it was James Randi > skepticism > psychology > philosophy > questioning > debating > 5 stages of grief. Quote: I was brought up in a Baptist Christian household, my parents and one of my siblings remain staunch believers, I'd consider myself agnostic today. I believe in live and let live and have somewhat of a gentlemans agreement with my family. They don't preach at me and I don't preach at them. It saves on a lot of arguments. I'm curious as from the outside looking in, Mormonism to me seems completely off the scale nuts compared to some other variants on Christianity. Understood, nuts is relative. Looking back Noah's Ark, talking snakes, witches, talking donkeys, walking on water, water into wine, living for 3 days in the belly of a fish, pretty damn nuts.
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 60,136	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch?

28th December 2012, 11:09 AM	#187
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 60,136	Originally Posted by Janadele Actual LDS beliefs and teachings are not off topic... obviously. Fabrications are. People are posting their evidence for the claims. You can't simply dismiss their evidence as a fabrication. You need to address the claims and the evidence for those claims.
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 60,136	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch?

28th December 2012, 11:21 AM	#188
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 27,663	Originally Posted by Janadele The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also known as LDS /Mormon, is a Christian denomination, but is neither Protestant nor Catholic... it is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, with eternal doctrines and teachings dating back to the days of Adam, and to our pre mortal existence. How many One True Churches are there? Has anyone been keeping count?
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 27,663	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

28th December 2012, 11:31 AM	#189
Janadele Banned Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 2,515	You are blessed with such a wife. My best wishes to her. Originally Posted by Pup ... Oddly enough, my wife, a current member and returned missionary, answered just as you did and disagreed with my proposed answer above, and she's usually pretty solid at doctrinal sources, but she also couldn't offer a doctrine-based reason for how she could know which things were eternal and which might be subject to future revelation...
Janadele Banned Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 2,515

28th December 2012, 11:34 AM	#190
DragonLady Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 3,224	Quote: Sadly, I think you're right. I find discussions with her are far less frustrating if you think of her not as a flesh and blood person with a mind of her own, but as an LDS search engine with an incomplete index and limited comprehension of language processing. This. Mormon beliefs read like an extended session with Cleverbot. Having been raised in a hellfire-and-dalmations church myself, I'm overly familiar with people who cannot even hold a reasonable conversation because they just can't think past the doctrine they've been taught. There simply is no "bigger picture" for them to contemplate.
DragonLady Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 3,224	__________________ http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499 “She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One

28th December 2012, 11:36 AM	#191
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 60,136	Originally Posted by DragonLady This. Mormon beliefs read like an extended session with Cleverbot. Having been raised in a hellfire-and-dalmations church myself, I'm overly familiar with people who cannot even hold a reasonable conversation because they just can't think past the doctrine they've been taught. There simply is no "bigger picture" for them to contemplate. Exactly.
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 60,136	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch?

28th December 2012, 11:42 AM	#192
Janadele Banned Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 2,515	Your blessed sister will have received her reward for her faithfulness. Rejoice in this knowledge and follow her path Originally Posted by Explorer My sister was very receptive, and was converted to Mormonism very easily. Although she was a good and very much loved, now late sister (was tragically killed in a road accident in 1983), she was also very gullible. She told me once that she was divinely receiving help with her monthly finances, that is the 90% left, after the church took their cut. For her, it wasn't a matter of being prudent and diligent with income and spending, or the math of the household balance sheet. It was her god, miraculously intervening to help her stay in the black each month. I miss her vulnerable innocence, so much.
Janadele Banned Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 2,515

28th December 2012, 11:50 AM	#193
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 60,136	Originally Posted by Janadele Your blessed sister will have received her reward for her faithfulness. Rejoice in this knowledge and follow her path The glory of god is ~~intelligence~~ lemmings. Janadele, enough with the rhetoric. Could you respond substantively?
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 60,136	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch?

28th December 2012, 11:52 AM	#194
DragonLady Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 3,224	Janadele (and other Mormons who feel qualified), I have a question for YOU. The answer is subjective, and requires YOUR opinion. I'm sure it's not going to be found in the scriptures, or the official church doctrine. It's also possible that as you live in Australia, and may have never been to Salt Lake City, that you have no idea what I'm talking about. If that's the case, I understand completely. Question: Why do so many LDS members appear to "glow"? I swear, the vast majority of those born and raised in the LDS church shine. They have something peculiar to their complexions. I kinda noticed it several times with regard to various individuals when I attended the University of Utah. But when I attended an LDS church service, I looked out over the congregation and was suddenly struck by the idea that if we turned out the lights the whole group would glow in the dark. I've been all around the country. As a result of being in dozens of foster homes, I've attended all kinds of churches. I've lived with health nuts, booze hounds, and everyone between. I've seen groups of people with alll kinds of common denominators. But the LDS folks are the only ones I've ever seen that shine like they're carrying lightbulbs in their garments. I welcome your opinion(s).
DragonLady Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 3,224	__________________ http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499 “She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One

28th December 2012, 11:57 AM	#195
Nay_Sayer I say nay! Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Long Island Posts: 2,580	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosex...ts#cite_note-8 So I'll ask, Why is the LDS so against two same sex people wanting to be married? (I already know the answer)
	__________________ "The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum." -Thomas Paine- ------------------------------------------------ I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.