|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
![]() |
#161 |
Ovis ex Machina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,854
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#162 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#163 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Next door to Florida Man, world's worst superhero.
Posts: 15,665
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#164 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
|
1) I Nephi 18:21 And it came to pass after they had loosed me, behold, I took the compass, and it did work whither I desired it. And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord; and after I had prayed the winds did cease, and the storm did cease, and there was a great calm.
-The compass was not even invented until 1800 years later. 2) I Nephi 8:25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the a$$ and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper. -Cows and horses did not exist in the Americas at that time, and would not exist until 2000 years later, when Europeans brought them over. I Nephi 4:9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel. -Steel did not exist in the Americas until Columbus. Mosiah 7:22 And all this he did, for the sole purpose of bringing this people into subjection or into bondage. And behold, we at this time do pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites, to the amount of one half of our corn, and our barley, and even all our grain of every kind, and one half of the increase of our flocks and our herds; and even one half of all we have or possess the king of the Lamanites doth exact of us, or our lives. -Barley did not exist in the Americas at that time. Ether 2:3 And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind. -Honeybees did not exist in the New World until Europeans introduced them in the 1700's. Joseph Smith really was an ignoramus. How ironic that he called the angel Moroni! |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#165 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,515
|
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#166 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,078
|
Well right. A simple question then.
What is it about LDS beliefs that makes them true as opposed to every single other religion on earth that claims the same? How did YOU Janadele decide 'this one!'? |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#167 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,515
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#168 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,123
|
My sister was very receptive, and was converted to Mormonism very easily. Although she was a good and very much loved, now late sister (was tragically killed in a road accident in 1983), she was also very gullible. She told me once that she was divinely receiving help with her monthly finances, that is the 90% left, after the church took their cut. For her, it wasn't a matter of being prudent and diligent with income and spending, or the math of the household balance sheet. It was her god, miraculously intervening to help her stay in the black each month. I miss her vulnerable innocence, so much.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#169 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 23,230
|
Janadele,
Have you ever done missionary work? Just curious. If so, would you like to tell us where? Thanks ![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#170 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#171 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Next door to Florida Man, world's worst superhero.
Posts: 15,665
|
Why were the laws presented by such an obvious and shabby liar? You'd think a god would pick someone with at least a little integrity to pass on these laws. Of course this god entity could maybe come and deliver the message himself/herself. That would seem a better plan that entrusting such an important mission to a fraud.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#172 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 8,292
|
It has its moments. Nephi for example is a prize idiot, constantly screwing up and losing the loyalty of his family. He's easily the single most inept prophet in the entirety of all Judeo-Christian scriptures. His section reads like "Gilligan the Prophet" as played by Jerry Lewis.
Are there any mainstream Mormons who seriously discuss Nephi's chronic incompetence and use it for theological discussion? That assertion is demonstrably false. The very existence of nuclear decay and the nuclear power we can derive form it proves the assertion false. More to the point, the ratios of existing elements is consistent with what we know about the fusion of various elements inside of a star. The book "The Disappearing Spoon" has a very easy to understand writeup of this for laymen. As I understand it, the golden plates were brought to the Americas, were lost and the "true" gospel was buried until Smith found the plates and translated them using a magic scrying hat. Sadly, I think you're right. I find discussions with her are far less frustrating if you think of her not as a flesh and blood person with a mind of her own, but as an LDS search engine with an incomplete index and limited comprehension of language processing. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#173 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 8,292
|
That's part of why she was eventually banned from the SGU forum. The specific chain of events is amusing but ultimately it wasn't the plagiarism or lying about the mods that got her booted, but her refusal to actually engage in discussion. She refused to address any criticism beyond attacking the source of the criticism as being anti-Mormon. I don't think she ever gave a theological answerer that wasn't plagiarized or paraphrased from an official LDS source, or at least one that towed the official LDS line.
I'd hoped she would turn over a new leaf and start engaging people in actual discussion. I wanted to see her take the lesson of being booted from the SGU Forum, accept personal responsibility for the poor communication skills that got her booted and try to change. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#174 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66,308
|
|
__________________
"Why do people say 'grow some balls'? Balls are weak and sensitive! If you really want to get tough, grow a vagina! Those things take a pounding!" — Betty White |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#175 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 8,292
|
What is the Mormon version of why Christians don't have to keep Kosher?
How does the Mormon church justify following the Leviticus ban on homosexuality but not the other Leviticus purity laws? |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#176 |
a carbon based life-form
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#177 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,844
|
Magic panties
|
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#178 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
|
"The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James’s translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel — half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern — which was about every sentence or two — he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as ‘exceeding sore,’ ‘and it came to pass,’ etc., and made things satisfactory again. ‘And it came to pass’ was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet."-Mark Twain.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#179 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 16,668
|
I have no sympathy for you. At any point in this conversation you could have (and still can) say "Hey, you know, this is really complicated stuff--so I'm going to focus on X for now. Here's what I think the Mormon stance on X actually is." That would allow you to focus on a single topic instead of the evasions you're currently doing, while still demonstrating a willingness to actually discuss things, something that's currently missing from your posts.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#180 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,679
|
But according to LDS doctrine, individuals can't receive revelation that would affect the entire church, such as "X is an enternal truth but Y is subject to future revelation." That's what you're doing--choosing what's X and what's Y and announcing it to everyone, without scriptural backing.
For example, according to LDS doctrine, a father could say that God revealed to him that his child should be homeschooled, because he has stewardship over his child and that's the kind of thing God might reveal to him. But God wouldn't say, "your wife should receive the priesthood," without also giving the revelation through the prophet, because that affects the policies of the whole church. Other members would have the right to ignore that message and say that it wasn't from God, while an obedient child should accept that God told her father how she should be educated. The above is pretty solid LDS doctrine, as far as I understand. For example: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.js...004d82620aRCRD What you're saying affects the whole church. Unless the prophet, speaking as a prophet, has said that the ban on homosexual acts or marriage will never be lifted, I think, according to church doctrine, such a statement from an individual member could be ignored as not necessarily an accurate reflection of God's intentions. I would have thought the standard, doctrine-based LDS answer to: "Will the church ever approve of gay marriage?" would be: "We don't know, but if God wants us to, he will reveal it through the prophet"--leaving open the possibility. Oddly enough, my wife, a current member and returned missionary, answered just as you did and disagreed with my proposed answer above, and she's usually pretty solid at doctrinal sources, but she also couldn't offer a doctrine-based reason for how she could know which things were eternal and which might be subject to future revelation. I wonder if this is a case where the cultural aspect of the church outweighs the doctrine-based aspect, and the idea of gay couples being married in the temple is just too squicky for conservative church members to contemplate. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#181 |
Good of the Fods
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,430
|
Really?
I used to live in Brecon. I have been to Merthyr Tydfil many times. Beautiful is about the last adjective I would use to describe it. In my experience it was a run down old Welsh valley mining town. Though I understand it has a fascinating history and was a major player in the industrial revolution, it just isn't beautiful. The surrounding area is both spectacular and beautiful, the town itself isn't. Meh. Eye of the beholder and all that I guess. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#182 |
Good of the Fods
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,430
|
How did you get from there to Mormon atheist?
I was brought up in a Baptist Christian household, my parents and one of my siblings remain staunch believers, I'd consider myself agnostic today. I believe in live and let live and have somewhat of a gentlemans agreement with my family. They don't preach at me and I don't preach at them. ![]() I'm curious as from the outside looking in, Mormonism to me seems completely off the scale nuts compared to some other variants on Christianity. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#183 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,201
|
And gets changed whenever the "church" feel it convenient.
![]() Really? So Mormons now deny the reality of the Big Bang, fission, fusion and radioactive decay............. I wonder if technetium is the Mormon equivalent to kryptonite. Now that's an interesting point, the degree to which today's xian sects relate to the Petrine/Pauline divide. |
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#184 |
Mormon Atheist
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,134
|
Oh I understand. It's frustrating. Religion is a parasitic meme that rewires the brain. It evolved with self protecting strategies. If you've not seen it I recommend Dan Dennetts's video on the Lancet Fluke. A biological parasite that rewires the brains of its hosts for its own purposes. Dennett makes the case that religious memes do the same to their hosts.
|
__________________
Ego, ain't it a bitch? |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#185 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#186 |
Mormon Atheist
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,134
|
To much detail to go into here so I'l summarize and edit most of it out. There were some epiphanies along the way. One while I was on my mission. I wanted desperately to convert people and I spent much of my time thinking about why it was so difficult. I understood that until people question their held beliefs they couldn't find the truth. So I spent a lot of time thinking of the best ways to get people to question themselves. And it occurred to me, if I wanted them to question their beliefs, shouldn't I question mine? That caused some cognitive dissonance and more reflection. 15 years later I was introduced to the Monty Hall problem. I refused to accept that my intuition could be wrong and set about trying to "solve" the problem. I realized that the only way to reconcile my belief with statistical fact was to question my belief and not the facts. Elementary. Then it was James Randi > skepticism > psychology > philosophy > questioning > debating > 5 stages of grief.
Quote:
![]() |
__________________
Ego, ain't it a bitch? |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#187 |
Mormon Atheist
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,134
|
|
__________________
Ego, ain't it a bitch? |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#188 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,018
|
|
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#189 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,515
|
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#190 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,809
|
Quote:
![]() |
__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499 “She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#191 |
Mormon Atheist
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,134
|
|
__________________
Ego, ain't it a bitch? |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#192 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,515
|
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#193 |
Mormon Atheist
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 60,134
|
|
__________________
Ego, ain't it a bitch? |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#194 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,809
|
Janadele (and other Mormons who feel qualified), I have a question for YOU. The answer is subjective, and requires YOUR opinion. I'm sure it's not going to be found in the scriptures, or the official church doctrine. It's also possible that as you live in Australia, and may have never been to Salt Lake City, that you have no idea what I'm talking about. If that's the case, I understand completely.
Question: Why do so many LDS members appear to "glow"? I swear, the vast majority of those born and raised in the LDS church shine. They have something peculiar to their complexions. I kinda noticed it several times with regard to various individuals when I attended the University of Utah. But when I attended an LDS church service, I looked out over the congregation and was suddenly struck by the idea that if we turned out the lights the whole group would glow in the dark. I've been all around the country. As a result of being in dozens of foster homes, I've attended all kinds of churches. I've lived with health nuts, booze hounds, and everyone between. I've seen groups of people with alll kinds of common denominators. But the LDS folks are the only ones I've ever seen that shine like they're carrying lightbulbs in their garments. I welcome your opinion(s). ![]() |
__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499 “She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One ![]() |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#195 |
I say nay!
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,422
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosex...ts#cite_note-8
So I'll ask, Why is the LDS so against two same sex people wanting to be married? (I already know the answer) |
__________________
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds. ---------------------------------------------- Proud woo denier ---------------------------------------------- “That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.” -Christopher Hitchens- |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#196 |
Good of the Fods
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,430
|
Thanks for the answer.
Quote:
I view religion as a book of stories that religious leaders use to get people to give them money and power. Same way that parents make **** up to get their kids to behave. "Follow these rules, or burn in eternal hell" "Be good or santa won't bring you presents" "rat on your pop and Keyser Soze will get ya" Some stories are more fantastical than others. I understand that people can get a lot of comfort from religion. I get that often the community is a very good thing. I think that in fact the basic teaching of Christianity, "do onto others, as you'd want them to do onto you" is a really good tenet to live by. If you could distill that out of religion and dump all of the other baggage, I might sign up for that one. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#197 |
Winking at the Moon
Moderator Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 12,372
|
Randfan, that's admirable. I'm in awe of how much work and soul-searching you must have done to critically examine your previous faith and seen it for the con-job it is.
|
__________________
Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#198 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 8,292
|
The "Golden Rule" has been articulated by just about every major religion out there at one point or another. You might want to look into some of the agnostic / atheist takes on Buddhism.
Are Skepticism and Buddhism compatible? |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#199 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,915
|
Theology can be considered a subset of logic, as long as the baseline assumption is that god exists and all else is logically deduced from that. While I disagree with the underlying assumption, as it is its self unsupported, I respect the practice of theology and theologians. On the other hand, what you're doing when you put forth your dogma as proof of your dogma is not logic or theology, but merely a more than typically obvious example of circular reasoning. When I say 'say something intelligent' that could just as easily be said 'say something that can be supported by logic and isn't dependent on circular reasoning' or 'show us that you're a thinking, reasoning being, and not a gibberish reciting tool'
|
__________________
"Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#200 |
a carbon based life-form
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | |
|
|