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Old 28th December 2012, 02:11 PM   #241
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Quote:
Baptism by authority on this earth, either preferably in person while in mortality, or by proxy when deceased, is a requisite to enable progression in the eternities.

Baptism by authority is a requirement for every mortal who has ever lived on this earth... otherwise their progression is restricted and they cannot inherit eternal salvation.
What about those who did not wish to be Mormon? Do you have some kind of notion that everyone changes their minds after they die? Or do you think there are those who will NEVER convert, and that being baptised by proxy might be a genuine insult?
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Old 28th December 2012, 02:12 PM   #242
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2 Nephi 14:1 And in that day, seven women shall take hold of one man, saying: We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel; only let us be called by thy name to take away our reproach.

My wife didn't take my last name when we married. Does this make our marriage invalid or taint it with reproach?

If I have a concubine, will our children still be bastards if she takes my name? (I'm kinda working on this, so it's an important question)
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Old 28th December 2012, 02:17 PM   #243
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The Mormons are the ones where the women have the secret names, aren't they? A guy marries a dozen women, but when he dies he only calls one out of her grave. So they all break their spines making him happy while he's alive.....

Yeah.... Nice. And "pure" too....
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Old 28th December 2012, 02:18 PM   #244
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Even in the after life free agency allows the person to accept or reject the Eternal Gospel. Baptism by proxy is of no effect if the individual does not accept the ordinance.
Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
What about those who did not wish to be Mormon? Do you have some kind of notion that everyone changes their minds after they die? Or do you think there are those who will NEVER convert, and that being baptised by proxy might be a genuine insult?
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Old 28th December 2012, 02:18 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
It violates parsimony and makes a claim that cannot be verified.

When I was on my mission we had a prospective member who told us that she was visited by Jesus and told that the Mormon Church was of the Devil and to stop meeting with us. She was very upset and sorry.

Such claims can be explained though human psychology. There isn't a single major religion on earth that doesn't have millions of such anecdotes.
Jesus told me that I am the newest prophet, and that everyone should follow me or burn in a lake of fire forever.

And that you should all tithe me a mere 5% of your earnings. It's a savings!
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Old 28th December 2012, 02:19 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Even in the after life free agency allows the person to accept or reject the Eternal Gospel. Baptism by proxy is of no effect if the individual does not accept the ordinance.
Why do you follow a religion that preaches hatred and intolerance?
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Old 28th December 2012, 02:19 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by ShadowSot View Post
I posit the possibility her son made the claim to put her at ease about her husband's afterlife.
A prosaic answer is always more parsimonious than a supernatural one.
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Old 28th December 2012, 02:22 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
The Mormons are the ones where the women have the secret names, aren't they? A guy marries a dozen women, but when he dies he only calls one out of her grave. So they all break their spines making him happy while he's alive.....

Yeah.... Nice. And "pure" too....
Everyone has a "secret" name. It's part of the Masonic ritual Joseph adopted for his temple ritual.

Kinda funny that god is so bereft of imagination that he had to borrow from the Masons.
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If I went to LA, via Omaha.
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Old 28th December 2012, 02:23 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Even in the after life free agency allows the person to accept or reject the Eternal Gospel. Baptism by proxy is of no effect if the individual does not accept the ordinance.
So then why have baptism by proxy at all?
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Old 28th December 2012, 02:27 PM   #250
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Exclamation

Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
The Mormons are the ones where the women have the secret names, aren't they? A guy marries a dozen women, but when he dies he only calls one out of her grave. So they all break their spines making him happy while he's alive.....

Yeah.... Nice. And "pure" too....
I was under the impression that all of a man's wives remain bound to him in the afterlife. I'd hate to woo a concubine, have children with her and include them among the multitudes populating my own planet only to have her excluded from what I build. That would just be heartless.

Quote:
1 Nephi 21:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; they shall be drunken with their own blood as with sweet wine; and all flesh shall know that I, the Lord, am thy Savior and thy Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
Aaaand it looks like God is on board with being heartless.

Quote:
Alma 12:17 Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will.
WOAH! Wait a minute! I thought Mormons didn't have a Hell. What gives?

Janadele,

It's clear that the Book of Mormon describes Hell. How come there's a myth that Mormons don't believe in Hell when it's RIGHT THERE IN THE BOOK OF MORMON?!?
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Old 28th December 2012, 02:47 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
You are blessed with such a wife. My best wishes to her.
Thanks, yeah, I know that. But, um, that's it? I asked what I thought was an intelligent, reasonable question, well within LDS doctrine, and was hoping for more discussion.

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
It's clear that the Book of Mormon describes Hell. How come there's a myth that Mormons don't believe in Hell when it's RIGHT THERE IN THE BOOK OF MORMON?!?
Never knew there was such a myth. Mormons believe in different layers of heaven/hell, with the worst, the one that fits most religions' definition of hell, being Outer Darkness. Google it to learn more. Most people aren't even potentially eligible for there, so I suppose it's not brought up much, which is maybe how such a myth could get started.
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Old 28th December 2012, 02:54 PM   #252
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Haley,
Only marriages sealed by authority in an LDS Temple are for eternity, and then only if the participants keep their covenants.

As for mortality, a marriage is legal if recognised as such in your place of residence. Merely taking a name will not legitimise your children.

Regarding your quoted Scripture:
This is referencing the last days when marriageable men will be scarce, and polygamy will most probably be legally introduced in order for women to be able to marry and bear children within a legally protected family environment.

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
2 Nephi 14:1 And in that day, seven women shall take hold of one man, saying: We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel; only let us be called by thy name to take away our reproach.

My wife didn't take my last name when we married. Does this make our marriage invalid or taint it with reproach?

If I have a concubine, will our children still be bastards if she takes my name? (I'm kinda working on this, so it's an important question)
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Old 28th December 2012, 02:56 PM   #253
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This is referencing the last days when marriageable men will be scarce
Why will they be scarce?
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Old 28th December 2012, 03:11 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Everyone has a "secret" name. It's part of the Masonic ritual Joseph adopted for his temple ritual.

Kinda funny that god is so bereft of imagination that he had to borrow from the Masons.
Great, now I have to question my Masonic membership.....

Thanks for the link/info though. I learn something new every day on this forum.
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Old 28th December 2012, 03:13 PM   #255
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There would be few foolish enough to reject the saving ordinance of Baptism. Most deceased mortals are waiting anxiously for their families to do this work for them... which they neglected to do for themselves during their mortal lifetime.

But as in all things our Heavenly Father allows His children to choose for themselves, and take the consequences of their actions.

Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
So then why have baptism by proxy at all?
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Old 28th December 2012, 03:14 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
Never knew there was such a myth. Mormons believe in different layers of heaven/hell, with the worst, the one that fits most religions' definition of hell, being Outer Darkness. Google it to learn more. Most people aren't even potentially eligible for there, so I suppose it's not brought up much, which is maybe how such a myth could get started.
The Mormon Church doesn't have an in-depth equivalent of the Catholic Catechism. From my understanding, Mormon beliefs loosely fall into 3 basic categories. Official church doctrine, member beliefs, academic apologetics.

The Mormon Church typically does not try very hard (if at all) to disabuse the members of beliefs like mother god, blood doctrine and thousands of urban legends and myths. The Church has never, AFAIK, announced to the membership formally that the Blood atonement (not to be confused with the atonement of Christ), Adam-god doctrine, etc, are not official doctrine.

Also, the Mormon Church refers members to the apologetics of academics like BYU professors and organizations like FAIR and FARMS. The Church does not necassarily hold that these apologetics are official doctrine.

See the following article that was written by a Mormon apologist. Mormon Doctrine, What’s Official, And What Isn’t?
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Last edited by RandFan; 28th December 2012 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 28th December 2012, 03:18 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
But as in all things our Heavenly Father allows His children to choose for themselves, and take the consequences of their actions.
Demonstrate that your god exists?
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I think I'll reroute my trip
I wonder if they'd think I'd flipped.
If I went to LA, via Omaha.

Last edited by RandFan; 28th December 2012 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 28th December 2012, 03:22 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
There would be few foolish enough to reject the saving ordinance of Baptism. Most deceased mortals are waiting anxiously for their families to do this work for them... which they neglected to do for themselves during their mortal lifetime.

But as in all things our Heavenly Father allows His children to choose for themselves, and take the consequences of their actions.

This is certainly your belief, I understand that part, but is there evidence for it? Is it stated somewhere in the Book of Mormon, or is it something you were taught by the Church, or is it something you have come to believe on your own. I am genuinely curious as to the basis for your belief.
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Old 28th December 2012, 03:22 PM   #259
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Wars... rioting, violence and destruction. Where evil mankind destroys themselves, and their victims... including the innocent and the environment.
Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Why will they be scarce?
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Old 28th December 2012, 03:29 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Wars... rioting, violence and destruction. Where evil mankind destroys themselves, and their victims... including the innocent and the environment.
Mormon Eschatology is basically Christian in nature with a few interesting twists that include Christ coming back to America.
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I think I'll reroute my trip
I wonder if they'd think I'd flipped.
If I went to LA, via Omaha.
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Old 28th December 2012, 03:47 PM   #261
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Wars... rioting, violence and destruction. Where evil mankind destroys themselves, and their victims... including the innocent and the environment.
Those things have been going on since the dawn of humankind. Yet, very few regions have seen men become so scarce they began taking extra wives.

So, what, specifically do you believe will happen to so decimate the population that will become necessary, and when?
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Old 28th December 2012, 03:50 PM   #262
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Old 28th December 2012, 03:53 PM   #263
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From Randfan's link:
Quote:
but that this is not the souls final resting place. They believe that all the people of the earth will be resurrected and receive their physical body again
Doesn't that mean those hermaphrodites and transgendered individuals have their old problems handed right back to them?
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Old 28th December 2012, 04:28 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Even in the after life free agency allows the person to accept or reject the Eternal Gospel. Baptism by proxy is of no effect if the individual does not accept the ordinance.
This is GREAT news, indeed!

I can wait until after I die, see which is the ONE TRUE religion, then come back to a member of that religion and join postumously.

I mean, who wouldn't?
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Old 28th December 2012, 04:47 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Wake up Joey and AdMan. I have no interest in logging in to those sites
Proof of how closed minded you've become. When things get narrowed down, the open mind to debate narrows down as well. Can you see this?
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Old 28th December 2012, 04:57 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
This is GREAT news, indeed!

I can wait until after I die, see which is the ONE TRUE religion, then come back to a member of that religion and join postumously.

I mean, who wouldn't?
Indeed, I may put this in my will. Pascal's Wager and all
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Old 28th December 2012, 05:50 PM   #267
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https://www.lds.org/topics/baptisms-...-dead?lang=eng

The Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith sublime doctrine concerning the sacred ordinance of baptism. The Lord’s revelation that through proper priesthood authority, baptism could be performed vicariously for the dead preserved the justice of His statement:
“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Vicarious baptism can mercifully provide this essential ordinance for all worthy deceased who did not receive it in mortality.
This glorious doctrine is another witness of the all-encompassing nature of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. He made salvation available to every repentant soul. His Atonement conquered death, and He permits the worthy deceased to receive all ordinances of salvation vicariously.

https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...-dead?lang=eng

Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
This is certainly your belief, I understand that part, but is there evidence for it? Is it stated somewhere in the Book of Mormon, or is it something you were taught by the Church, or is it something you have come to believe on your own. I am genuinely curious as to the basis for your belief.

Last edited by Janadele; 28th December 2012 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 28th December 2012, 05:54 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Wars... rioting, violence and destruction. Where evil mankind destroys themselves, and their victims... including the innocent and the environment.
Cats and dogs sleeping together?
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Old 28th December 2012, 05:58 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Cats and dogs sleeping together?
We are talking Biblical proportions.

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I think I'll reroute my trip
I wonder if they'd think I'd flipped.
If I went to LA, via Omaha.
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Old 28th December 2012, 05:59 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
..........
Got nothing? 's okay.
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Ego, ain't it a bitch?

I think I'll reroute my trip
I wonder if they'd think I'd flipped.
If I went to LA, via Omaha.
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Old 28th December 2012, 06:22 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
https://www.lds.org/topics/baptisms-...-dead?lang=eng

The Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith sublime doctrine concerning the sacred ordinance of baptism. The Lord’s revelation that through proper priesthood authority, baptism could be performed vicariously for the dead preserved the justice of His statement:
“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Vicarious baptism can mercifully provide this essential ordinance for all worthy deceased who did not receive it in mortality.
This glorious doctrine is another witness of the all-encompassing nature of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. He made salvation available to every repentant soul. His Atonement conquered death, and He permits the worthy deceased to receive all ordinances of salvation vicariously.

https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...-dead?lang=eng

Yes, I understood that. I asked you a different question, though. I was asking specifically for the basis of this statement:
Quote:
Most deceased mortals are waiting anxiously for their families to do this work for them
Mine was not a question of how or whether, but of how many.
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Old 28th December 2012, 06:26 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
This glorious doctrine is another witness of the all-encompassing nature of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. He made salvation available to every repentant soul.
One would think an omnipotent being could just forgive people without the gory human sacrifice.
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I think I'll reroute my trip
I wonder if they'd think I'd flipped.
If I went to LA, via Omaha.
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Old 28th December 2012, 07:29 PM   #273
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I have not served an official LDS mission, but three of my sons have... one in New Zealand, one in Queensland Australia, one in Colorado, United States of America.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Janadele,

Have you ever done missionary work? Just curious.

If so, would you like to tell us where?

Thanks
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Old 28th December 2012, 07:51 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Sockpuppet of Robert Prey?
No, but a former member always put their response before the qoute, and inserted spaces before the question marks. Just sayin'.
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Old 28th December 2012, 07:57 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Baptism by authority is a requirement for every mortal who has ever lived on this earth... otherwise their progression is restricted and they cannot inherit eternal salvation.
Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
https://www.lds.org/topics/baptisms-...-dead?lang=eng

The Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith sublime doctrine concerning the sacred ordinance of baptism. The Lord’s revelation that through proper priesthood authority, baptism could be performed vicariously for the dead preserved the justice of His statement:
“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
Janadele. this in a nutshell neatly sums up why I don't agree with the teachings of the book of Mormon. Or Christian theology in general.

The teachings of any particular subset of Christian involves believing in and adhering to a persons interpretation of "Gods word"

Looking at the quote above which is John 3:5. This is the retelling of a conversation Jesus had with a man called Nicodemus. Nicodemus asks about the mechanics of being 'born again' "how can someone be born again, they cannot re-enter their mothers womb?"

We can interpret John 3:5 (which is the only time a requirement to be born of water is mentioned) in lots of different ways. The bible doesn't explain this. Inside the womb a child grows inside a sac of fluid, it's reasonable to interpret John 3:5 as referring to a natural birth. There are several other equally plausible interpretations of this text.

LDS teachings refer to yet another book of the bible, the book of Mormon. As well as later teachings from "the prophet" and from those you hold the belief that a person cannot progress in eternal life in heaven without being physically baptised in water.

That is at odds with many verses of the bible e.g. Romans 6:23, Romans 10:9 Ephesians 2:8-9 which state that anyone who accepts Jesus as their saviour gets eternal life and salvation, nothing else required, no works, no rituals to complete.

So which is right? What version is the truth, and why so many conflicting versions?

The bible is a document written after the fact. It was written in an older language and has been translated and re-translated many times in it's history. Language has many quirks and idiosyncrasies which can subtly change the meaning of the words, often in ways that a translator that is not sufficiently fluent in both can miss.

On top of those potential errors, preachers from different churches will then impart their own interpretation of what is written and over time that causes whole different branches of the church to emerge.

[that phenomenon mirrors evolution so closely it's a interesting debate all by itself]

Which brings me to my question. Why do you believe in the teachings of the Mormon church and reject those of other Christian churches?

What makes the words of the 'prophets' you follow so special and how do you rationalise the revisionism that continues in the teachings of the LDS church?

In your case why do you believe that the LDS church is the right one, and the Anglican church you grew up with, is the wrong church?

To be more specific how do you rationalise

Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Baptism by authority is a requirement for every mortal who has ever lived on this earth... otherwise their progression is restricted and they cannot inherit eternal salvation.
with

Originally Posted by Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
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Old 28th December 2012, 10:08 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
My late husband never joined, nor did he give his permission for me to be baptised. However he did not stop me from attending nor raising our six children LDS. One of our sons was on his mission in Colorado when his late father appeared to him and his companion and asked to be baptised. There was great excitement in the mission, and my son was baptised as proxy for his father in the Denver Temple.
I don't believe you.
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Old 28th December 2012, 10:10 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
https://www.lds.org/topics/baptisms-...-dead?lang=eng

The Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith sublime doctrine concerning the sacred ordinance of baptism. The Lord’s revelation that through proper priesthood authority, baptism could be performed vicariously for the dead preserved the justice of His statement:
“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Vicarious baptism can mercifully provide this essential ordinance for all worthy deceased who did not receive it in mortality.
This glorious doctrine is another witness of the all-encompassing nature of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. He made salvation available to every repentant soul. His Atonement conquered death, and He permits the worthy deceased to receive all ordinances of salvation vicariously.

https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...-dead?lang=eng
Or, Smith made the whole thing up.
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Old 28th December 2012, 10:22 PM   #278
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Seriously though, what is it you wish to accomplish here? It cannot possibly be to convince of the truth of your beliefs. If that's your goal you've done nothing productive toward it. Spewing the silly, and blatant dishonesty of the frauds and charlatans who started your church isn't likely going to sway people on a skeptic's forum. Is this perhaps some twisted revenge fantasy you have to spew the sick rantings of your church and then sit back smugly and know we're going to some sort of hell because we rejected the drivel that constitutes your faith?
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Old 28th December 2012, 11:32 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Baptism by authority on this earth, either preferably in person while in mortality, or by proxy when deceased, is a requisite to enable progression in the eternities.

Baptism by authority is a requirement for every mortal who has ever lived on this earth... otherwise their progression is restricted and they cannot inherit eternal salvation.
How do you know?
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Old 28th December 2012, 11:41 PM   #280
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KiriKiwi,
That is the eternal question which has been answered time and time again If you read my previous posts the answer is there.
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