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#81 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 6,057
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If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed ; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves. - Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm |
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#82 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,961
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Some????
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#83 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,141
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while still not understanding why a private citizen feels the need to be armed with military level weapons, a total ban on assault guns is not practical, however tightening up the controls on them is and can be done, what rational, responsible gun owner can be against that..
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#84 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes
Posts: 11,032
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__________________
"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275 |
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#85 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#86 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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I know it's been said that pro-gun people have not presented any solutions.
I'll put one out. How about tough penalties for gun owners whos weapons are stolen and used in connection with a crime? This would encourage safe storage of guns. I doubt many gun enthusiasts would have a real problem with this. |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#87 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes
Posts: 11,032
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__________________
"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275 |
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#88 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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I'm not sure how that follows.
![]() If you have guns (and I do) and they are not secured in compliance with law, you could be charged with a crime. I'd have no problem with this because I would (and do) secure them properly. I'm in peoples houses all the time that just leave them lying around. That's wrong, make it a crime to not be responsible. |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#89 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,812
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Canada has an interesting twist on that.
Many are quick to vilify legitimate gun owners in that country for possessing firearms that could be stolen and used in a criminal manner. Yet these same people will support the law that MAKES IT ILLEGAL for a Canadian to employ force for the protection of property. I'm sure that many if not most American gun owners are responsible, conscientious people who store their firearms in a safe and secure manner. However, these security efforts can be compromised by having their names and addresses published in the media. Those advocating for tighter gun controls should not be afforded credibility if they continue to pro-actively facilitate the criminals' use of firearms... |
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"When they come around sweet talkin', don't listen" - Willie Stark |
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#90 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 8,969
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Not all homes are equal. Take for example my home. The guns could be laying about all over the house (they are not) but still be considered to be locked up as there are only adults in my house both of whom are permitted to own firearms and my doors are always locked whether I am home or not. On the other hand my car is always outside (doors locked) and out in the open just waiting for any thief or drunken fool (with a forklift, tow truck, slimjim, crowbar) to steal and mow someone down with on their joyride.
As far as I know WA does not have a safe storage law but are considering one. If they pass one that prohibits unsafe storage around children, I am still good to go especially as I keep most of my guns in a secure area outside of the house anyway. |
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#91 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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I'm from MA, we do have some of the tougher laws but, I'm really not sure what the laws are for securing the weapons (I'm sure I'm well above the statutes). Maybe a specific standard for "secured" would be in order.
I agree that it would be hard to enforce but, I don't believe much enforcement would be necessary. If people know they are responsible for what happens with thier guns if they are stolen, maybe the might take more precautions to prevent this in the first place. If they are secured in compliance, then responsible owners have nothing to fear. This type of laws, in my opinion will go much further than any feel good bans I've seen so far. |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#92 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 9,692
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I believe that I wrote this same proposal in another thread and I agree. Other suggestions I've read include licensing guns like we do cars, and requiring yearly safety and competency checks where guns would be surrendered for failure to pass until you fixed whatever is wrong. I would propose a gun/ammo tax to cover any costs. You get to keep your guns, but we make it subject to much more oversight.
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#93 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#94 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 9,692
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Sure. We already agree that it's constitutional to deny gun ownership to select people, like felons and the mentally ill. I think we should treat gun owners like car drivers. You buy a gun and you get a gun license. Every year, you have to show up with every gun registered to you and demonstrate that you do can operate the guns safely, and that you do not have any disqualifying offenses. I'm not sure what the parameters of those offenses should be. DUI? Maybe, I don't know. Lost guns? Maybe if you lose a gun you have to give up your other guns for a year. Certainly people with restraining orders would be good candidates. People with ongoing mental health issues would be another.
If your gun isn't properly maintained or you can't demonstrate that you know how to use it safely, or you can't prove that you have a proper gun safe (that one I'm not sure how you'd enforce), it stays there until you get some training and come back to pass your test. I can already anticipate people with "collections" of 30 guns squawking at this, but no one says you need to collect a giant arsenal to protect your house or go sport shooting. If you owned 30 cars, you'd have to bring all 30 in for a smog inspection. I would like to see gun ownership treated AT LEAST as seriously as a car, motorcycle, or scooter. I'd pay for all of this with a tax on gun ownership. If you lapse your license fees, you can't own a gun, period. I'm not stuck on the details, but that's the gist of where I'd go. |
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#95 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes
Posts: 11,032
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Did you read what you wrote?
If my guns are inside my house. locked away, and someone steals them, your original statement was that I should be penalized. No caveats, no exceptions were mentioned by your statement. Just penalties for l"letting" them be stolen. |
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"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275 |
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#96 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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Seems like a lot of hoops for not much gain (other than collecting money). I have no problem with certifying the owner is still competent but, how do you regulate people that are not licensed and under the same house hold (like in the CT case)?
We're looking for laws that will actually reduce the cases of crime, not creating hoops for the law abiding. |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#97 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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Yes, I do. Do you consider just locked in your house safe storage of your guns?
I propose guidelines for this safe storage. If you comply with these guidelines and you can prove it you have no problem. You might want to read again where I wrote: What's the issue? |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#98 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 9,692
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Good question. I think if you have people in the house who are not licensed, then they either have to get licensed (and pass those same tests) or you have to show proof of the items being locked up and away from those people. I also don't think kids should be allowed to fire guns, just as kids can't drive. That eight year old who blew his head off at a gun show is a travesty and should never have happened.
And my concern is not about hoops. We have hoops for most everything: cars, homes, raising kids, going to the doctor, running a business. I see that as the cost of freedom. If you want the freedom to own guns that potentially affect others, there should be ways of making sure that's done safely, or at the very least, as safely as possible, and does not threaten me or people I love. I don't want to raise revenue just to raise it, but I want to pay for whatever is necessary through taxes on gun owners, yes. |
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#99 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,222
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#100 |
AI-EE-YAH!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,354
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Found an excellent article about the ridiculousness of an "Assault Weapons" ban. I really recommend everyone read it, both anti gun and pro gun:
http://kontradictions.wordpress.com/...-ill-tell-you/
Quote:
Quote:
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken |
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#101 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 10,016
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__________________
"Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein |
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#102 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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Thanks, Every once in a while I get some wood on the ball.
![]() I have no problem with this except why would you really need to show proof? The vast majority of instances of ownership with no problems prove this is unnecessary. This would be a feel good hoop that would likely yield no gain. Also, how would you avoid stigmatizing/ excluding people with mental handicaps that are of no threat? If you want me to take you seriously you need to stop these strawman arguments, K? Lets stick to what's workable not the ideology. |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#103 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes
Posts: 11,032
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Considering that you didn't read the "locked away" part of what I wrote, it seems that you are merely looking to piss on other's ideas/thoughts
also--since there are only my wife and I, guns stored in a drawer, locked in the house, with the alarm on is as secure as anything else. But I also own a safe where all but the .40 reside.
Quote:
eTa: The OP and Feinstein law do NOTHING towards what you mention. I don't think it'sw necessarily a bad idea you have, but it does need work. Many of us "gun lovers" have said similar things. |
__________________
"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275 |
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#104 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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This would not violate the Constitution at all.
If you secure your guns in compliance, you have no problems. There would be no inspections to insure compliance. If a gun that you register (which you already have to do) is stolen, all you need to do is show that it was secured in compliance with the law. This is not universal in the US to date (it is in MA). Make it known, secure your guns. I'd be willing to bet it would cut down on theft. |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#105 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 9,692
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#106 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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Perhaps I did miss-understand. I've always been with my kid when he was shooting. I teach gun safety and have my own range. Maybe I was confused by your reference to the child that was killed at a range with an Uzi.
I've fired the same weapon and I wouldn't let anyone that has not had significant gun experience do so. This incident was a serious lapse of judgement on the parent and the instructors part. No need to bring this into the discussion. |
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"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#107 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,222
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#108 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,527
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__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
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#109 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,961
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Actually, I'm somewhat against that. There'd have to be some kind of gross negligence. Like, leaving a gun in an unlocked car, with the windows down, and in full view.
If someone breaks into my house, (I have unsecured guns in my house) and steals them, I shouldn't be responsible. But, I like the idea, but only to a point. |
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#110 |
Banned
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Posts: 13,961
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#111 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,825
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__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine |
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#112 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,961
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#113 |
AI-EE-YAH!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,354
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Man I am shopping around for an AR-15 style rifle (Not specifically an AR-15, because I don't like their operating system), and everywhere is sold out! Man people are definitely right when they say that Obama is the best gun salesman out there lol.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken |
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#114 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 9,692
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I don't understand this part. You're basically trying to use a variation of the No True Scotsman argument. The issue of gun violence (and accidental discharges) is at the very heart of this debate, so no, that's not off limits and I'm not going to spot you points to make it easier. The problem is that once again, up until he let his kid fire that uzi, he was part of that group of "responsible gun owners" we keep hearing about. And then he wasn't. And in this case, he lost his own kid. But the kid could have easily killed someone else, like your kid, or your wife, or your mother. And that's because guns are deadly, and we don't have laws that say "you can't let your damn eight year old fire an uzi". So I don't grant your parameters, sorry.
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#115 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 9,692
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Tough! Your hobby puts my life at risk. Gun violence causes massive financial, emotional, and physical damage to society, so if it costs money to hire guards to protect against shooters, or costs money to do more background checks, or it costs money to set up a better licensing system and to enforce that system, or it costs money to buy back the glut of guns on the streets, you have to pay. Smokers pay for their burden on society. Drinkers pay for theirs. You have to pay for yours. Freedom isn't free, buddy. Enjoy your guns, just be prepared for the consequences. |
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#116 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 11,089
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Late is too late.
You young guys haven't gone through all the buying panics from '68 on, so you can't be blamed too much, but I've been telling friends from the 70's on that if you want a firearm, and it's available now at or below retail, buy it. I've received Emails from people I do business with that they're out, not accepting orders, and will not be returning E's or phone messages for the immediate future - Ebay buyers are going nuts with pricing, so over-the-top it's unreal. I have always followed my own advice, and bought cheap and stacked deep. |
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#117 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,961
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The only way you're at risk from my guns, is if you're trying to rob someone or put a bullet into someone, or harm someone or myself.
My guns have NEVER put anyone else's life at risk, with one single exception. And it was absolutely justified. So, go after the gun abusers. Nope, that's why I pay taxes. I don't mind slight increases if a service is rendered (for instance, the $5 I pay when I purchase a firearm to complete the NCIC background check) I'm ok with that. Lol!! Keep going, this is hilarious!! You mean the consequences of other people who disobey the law? Awesome. You're on a roll, keep going.... |
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#118 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,680
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__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping. |
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#119 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,825
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__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine |
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#120 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,825
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__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine |
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