ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 30th December 2012, 08:24 PM   #201
BStrong
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 6,125
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Strange, i thought guns were effective for self defense against robbers.
A firearm is a good tool, nothing more, and there is no such thing is a stand-alone crime prevention device.
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 08:26 PM   #202
TheGoldcountry
Graduate Poster
 
TheGoldcountry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,975
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Strange, i thought guns were effective for self defense against robbers.
I'm trying to be a "Devil's Advocate" here, but you are purposely twisting everything. No one has said that firearms are the last or only way to defend a home. You're pushing straw.
__________________
Not exactly, I'm talking about something I don't know about, if its there then it is what I am talking about and thats not nothing. -punshhh

I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten
TheGoldcountry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 08:32 PM   #203
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 23,597
Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
I'm trying to be a "Devil's Advocate" here, but you are purposely twisting everything. No one has said that firearms are the last or only way to defend a home. You're pushing straw.
The claim had been made that taking away guns takes away the ability of self defense.
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 08:40 PM   #204
TheGoldcountry
Graduate Poster
 
TheGoldcountry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,975
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The claim had been made that taking away guns takes away the ability of self defense.
It does take away some ability, but no one has claimed (that I've seen) that firearms are the only option, only an option open to them.
__________________
Not exactly, I'm talking about something I don't know about, if its there then it is what I am talking about and thats not nothing. -punshhh

I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten
TheGoldcountry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 08:42 PM   #205
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 23,597
Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
It does take away some ability, but no one has claimed (that I've seen) that firearms are the only option, only an option open to them.
"Taking away guns takes away my right to self defense."
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 08:48 PM   #206
TheGoldcountry
Graduate Poster
 
TheGoldcountry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,975
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
"Taking away guns takes away my right to self defense."
Wow, you are making this hard. NO ONE HAS ARGUED THAT GUNS ARE THE ONLY METHOD for self defense. But they are useful, and they can be used for self defense, so purposely ignoring that fact is detrimental to thoughtful discussion.
__________________
Not exactly, I'm talking about something I don't know about, if its there then it is what I am talking about and thats not nothing. -punshhh

I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten
TheGoldcountry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 08:49 PM   #207
Quad4_72
AI-EE-YAH!
 
Quad4_72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,244
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
"Taking away guns takes away my right to self defense."
Why are you purposefully twisting words? Do you truly, and honestly think that I meant there is no other means to self defense? People like you are why it is so, so difficult to discuss gun control. Grow up.
__________________
Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
Quad4_72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 08:50 PM   #208
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 23,597
So when that claim is made, it's just hyperbole?
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 08:57 PM   #209
Quad4_72
AI-EE-YAH!
 
Quad4_72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,244
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
So when that claim is made, it's just hyperbole?
Everyone has identified that you are merely trolling now, so how about you stop the nonsense and bring something relevant to the discussion.
__________________
Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
Quad4_72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 09:05 PM   #210
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 54,080
Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
She also has no qualms about carrying the best tool available for her protection. Must be nice to be a senator, not only does she get a concealed carry permit in an area that is damn near impossible for a regular citizen to get, but she gets to ignore the hospital's "gun free zone" when going to visit her husband.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE




FTFY
She's special, you see.

Just like when Chicago's aldermen outlawed handguns for all city residents, except themselves. They get to conceal carry. Some travel with a phalanx of bodyguards like some drug kingpin.
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 09:34 PM   #211
TheGoldcountry
Graduate Poster
 
TheGoldcountry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,975
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
So when that claim is made, it's just hyperbole?
To what claim are you referring?
__________________
Not exactly, I'm talking about something I don't know about, if its there then it is what I am talking about and thats not nothing. -punshhh

I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten
TheGoldcountry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 10:33 PM   #212
rikzilla
Ninja wave: Atomic fire-breath ninja
 
rikzilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,010
So basically you guys agree that you life would not change appreciably, except for Tri's terminal boredom.

It's not a clown question. Guns are simply not necessary to your standard of living. And for this not-necessary thing people must die. Unlucky people...people you don't know...little people...people who matter less than your hobby.

So yeah, enlightening...thanks for playing.

-z
__________________
"Man, if Socrates thought like Rick, I don't think Socrates would have ever written a word." - "Red" (@ Red Pill Philosophy FB page)
rikzilla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 10:45 PM   #213
rikzilla
Ninja wave: Atomic fire-breath ninja
 
rikzilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,010
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I can not envision a time where I would be denied the right to own and possess firearms while residing in the United States.

Nice scare quotes though.
I never said you would be denied anything. I simply asked how your life would change if you no longer owned one. It's a fairly simple question. It would be pretty easy to answer too if you could disassociate your emotions and no longer equate your American identity with the possession of a thing.

That's the crux of the problem as I see it. The weapon has become important to folks such as your good self in ways that, before the Newtown tragedy, I just never grasped. It has elements of nationalism, it lends power, it brings comfort, it makes one more of a "man". It's a security blanket, an American totem, and a quasi sexual/religious symbol.

I think I understand now, because I just threw up a little in my throat...

-z
__________________
"Man, if Socrates thought like Rick, I don't think Socrates would have ever written a word." - "Red" (@ Red Pill Philosophy FB page)
rikzilla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 10:48 PM   #214
R.Mackey
Philosopher
 
R.Mackey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,857
Originally Posted by rikzilla View Post
So basically you guys agree that you life would not change appreciably, except for Tri's terminal boredom.

It's not a clown question. Guns are simply not necessary to your standard of living. And for this not-necessary thing people must die. Unlucky people...people you don't know...little people...people who matter less than your hobby.

So yeah, enlightening...thanks for playing.

-z
Pretty good paraphrase of a fellow I read about once. Went by the name of Thomas Gage. General for some army or another...

If you honestly think that yanking such a basic, fundamental, and long-standing civil right would have no effect on our standard of living, then you go right ahead and run with that notion. I'm curious to see where you wind up.
__________________
"Nothing real can defeat us. Nothing unreal exists." -B. Banzai

VT VENIANT OMNES
R.Mackey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 10:50 PM   #215
rikzilla
Ninja wave: Atomic fire-breath ninja
 
rikzilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,010
It's pretty clear to me that we will never be rid of these things. So you guys have convinced me. If the government ever did clamp down we'd be inundated with scenes of Waco and Ruby Ridge every day...

Somehow I think we're heading that way no matter what course we choose. I guess I better go get mine as well...once I have a closet full of iron, I'm sure to feel better about all this eh?

-z
__________________
"Man, if Socrates thought like Rick, I don't think Socrates would have ever written a word." - "Red" (@ Red Pill Philosophy FB page)
rikzilla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 10:58 PM   #216
R.Mackey
Philosopher
 
R.Mackey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,857
Been that way in this country for over 200 years... society is still thriving... perfect, no, but you know what they say about Utopia.
__________________
"Nothing real can defeat us. Nothing unreal exists." -B. Banzai

VT VENIANT OMNES
R.Mackey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 11:41 PM   #217
rikzilla
Ninja wave: Atomic fire-breath ninja
 
rikzilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,010
yeah, it's why they built the Matrix to dish out misery...humans are a virus and Utopia is not only unattainable, it's ultimately undesireable.

so say the machines...
__________________
"Man, if Socrates thought like Rick, I don't think Socrates would have ever written a word." - "Red" (@ Red Pill Philosophy FB page)
rikzilla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2012, 11:56 PM   #218
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 54,080
Remember kids, only politicians have a legitimate need to have a gun and/or 24/7/365 armed bodyguards.

The rest of you have 911 and when seconds count the police are only minutes away.
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 04:54 AM   #219
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,099
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Got it.

The number of Americans involved in "illegal behavior" will increase geometrically - I predict tens of millions new felons will be created overnight if some of the laws suggested ever come to fruition.

Not sure that's what we need, but if you want to build the prisons for all these new criminals, which would include perhaps a majority of my friends and neighbors, then go for it.
So all those law abiding citizens who own guns are in fact criminals in the waiting? Or will they not continue to be law abiding citizens and sell guns only as per the new laws?
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 05:03 AM   #220
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,099
Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Well one of my hobbies would be taken away. My life would not really change, but my ability to defend myself and my family would be taken away. What kind of answer did you expect?
Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
I'm trying to be a "Devil's Advocate" here, but you are purposely twisting everything. No one has said that firearms are the last or only way to defend a home. You're pushing straw.
Some do say things which appear to be exactly that, so comment on it is made.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 05:09 AM   #221
Fast Eddie B
Graduate Poster
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 1,999
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
So all those law abiding citizens who own guns are in fact criminals in the waiting? Or will they not continue to be law abiding citizens and sell guns only as per the new laws?
I don't know.

I have an acquaintance who voiced the dilemma he would face to me a couple weeks ago.

He said he'd always been a law abiding citizen throughout his entire adult life. Always tries to do things "by the book", and proud of that fact.

He said it would be an agonizing choice, but he would "cross over" and join the criminal ranks rather than surrender, or even register, his guns.

Believe me, he's not alone. Civil disobedience is not a new concept, and the level of it in the face of some of the laws proposed would be massive.

Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 31st December 2012 at 05:10 AM.
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 05:11 AM   #222
leftysergeant
Penultimate Amazing
 
leftysergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,873
Originally Posted by rikzilla View Post
It's pretty clear to me that we will never be rid of these things. So you guys have convinced me. If the government ever did clamp down we'd be inundated with scenes of Waco and Ruby Ridge every day...
Weaver and his sort would be an even greater threat to civilization if people like me did not have guns. All they would have to worry about would be the army. As it is, they would have to worry about me and my determination that they should never control a foot of territory near me. On top of that, they would have to worry about my ability to equip a good squad or two of the neighbors.
__________________
No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.
leftysergeant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 05:16 AM   #223
leftysergeant
Penultimate Amazing
 
leftysergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,873
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
So all those law abiding citizens who own guns are in fact criminals in the waiting? Or will they not continue to be law abiding citizens and sell guns only as per the new laws?
If the new laws were on the lines that most of us here who own guns have put forward, yes. The whackadoodle militias and gangs and assorted other misfits and malcontents would continue not even to obey the ones that exist.

The advantage, of course, is that such people could then be rounded up and disarmed and or incarcerated or sent off for psyciatric help as appropriate if found to be armed illegally.

Additionally, most of us would agree to a code that would require anyone who owns a weapon to be trained and tested.

Just the training and testing would greatly reduce some of the friendly fire and Darwin Award-related deaths.
__________________
No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.
leftysergeant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 05:19 AM   #224
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,099
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I don't know.

I have an acquaintance who voiced the dilemma he would face to me a couple weeks ago.

He said he'd always been a law abiding citizen throughout his entire adult life. Always tries to do things "by the book", and proud of that fact.

He said it would be an agonizing choice, but he would "cross over" and join the criminal ranks rather than surrender, or even register, his guns.

Believe me, he's not alone. Civil disobedience is not a new concept, and the level of it in the face of some of the laws proposed would be massive.
What about selling his guns via a dealer so checks can be made he is selling to a suitable person?

I understand the resistance to surrendering or registering all guns makes such very unlikely. So I have been arguing that drying up the supply of guns to nuts and criminals is the answer, and checks for all trades is needed or else you go to prison for a very long time.

I cannot see how lawful gun owners could object to measures specifically targeting keeping guns away from unsuitable people.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 05:22 AM   #225
Fast Eddie B
Graduate Poster
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 1,999
Originally Posted by rikzilla

I would pose this question to the gun "enthusiasts" on the board; "How, or in what ways would your life change if you no longer owned a weapon?"


I would be deprived of a hobby that I enjoy, but I could live with that.

I was born a Jew. Grew up with images of the holocaust. Including families meekly lining up along ditches to be machine gunned. Was reminded of that again a few nights ago revisiting a movie called "The Chosen".

If our gov't ever took a turn for the worst, I literally cherish having the option of not going to a camp or a shower or a ditch without a fight. Take away that option, and then our individual fates are at the whim of others, who may or may not have benevolent motives. I would rather fight and die, if even in a lost cause, than be executed.

Before I'm labeled paranoid, I think the chances of a malevolent gov't arising in this country that leads to a new holocaust is very small. But to study human history and human nature leads me to the conclusion that it is non-zero and worth at least contemplating.
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 05:29 AM   #226
Skepticemea
Master Poster
 
Skepticemea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,769
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
A firearm is a good tool, nothing more, and there is no such thing is a stand-alone crime prevention device.
A "good" tool? A "good" tool for what? If it's for recreation purposes then it's not a tool, it's a toy. I'm struck by the qualifying adjective and would ask what a "bad" tool is other than one that's being misused or misapplied.

Shooting people is not a misuse of a gun, whether that be a criminal act or not. Firearms are designed to propel projectives towards a target. The target in question is a matter of choice.
__________________
Learn the words!
Skepticemea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 05:32 AM   #227
Fast Eddie B
Graduate Poster
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 1,999
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post

I cannot see how lawful gun owners could object to measures specifically targeting keeping guns away from unsuitable people.
I think the fear is as to who will control the list of "unsuitable people".

I believe Diane Feinstein, et al have good intentions. I would not, however, want them compiling the criteria for "unsuitable people", which at some point could include all sorts of undesirable, eventually including a class that might include me and thee.

My ex-wife thought the Nazi's should not have been allowed to march in Skokie. That certain groups do not deserve the right to free speech. My question to her was, "Who makes up the list of who is entitled to speak freely?" and she would flippantly say, "I will!"

As said before so eloquently, it's not called the "Bill of Needs" or the "Bill of Wants". It's the Bill of RIGHTS, and like speech and all the other rights enumerated, should not be infringed at the whim of the legislature, no matter their intentions.

Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 31st December 2012 at 05:34 AM.
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 05:36 AM   #228
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,099
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Originally Posted by rikzilla

I would pose this question to the gun "enthusiasts" on the board; "How, or in what ways would your life change if you no longer owned a weapon?"


I would be deprived of a hobby that I enjoy, but I could live with that.

I was born a Jew. Grew up with images of the holocaust. Including families meekly lining up along ditches to be machine gunned. Was reminded of that again a few nights ago revisiting a movie called "The Chosen".

If our gov't ever took a turn for the worst, I literally cherish having the option of not going to a camp or a shower or a ditch without a fight. Take away that option, and then our individual fates are at the whim of others, who may or may not have benevolent motives. I would rather fight and die, if even in a lost cause, than be executed.

Before I'm labeled paranoid, I think the chances of a malevolent gov't arising in this country that leads to a new holocaust is very small. But to study human history and human nature leads me to the conclusion that it is non-zero and worth at least contemplating.
The UK is safe from tyranny. The politicians have a fine tradition of standing up to tyranny, evidence two world wars from beginning to end. Most recently the government has been supporting the Arab Uprisings. We have an armed force made up of people who correctly take great pride in also standing up to tyranny, presently still fighting in Afghanistan against the Taliban. Our police force is independent and non political and would never join with any party or person to support any tyranny.

If only the USA government had a history of standing up to tyranny in World Wars, supported the Arabs fighting against tyranny, its army took pride in standing up to tyranny and was fighting against it elsewhere in the world and there was an independent non political police force would have no party allegiance.

But wait, the USA has all of those things. Yes, you must be paranoid.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 05:41 AM   #229
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,099
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I think the fear is as to who will control the list of "unsuitable people".

I believe Diane Feinstein, et al have good intentions. I would not, however, want them compiling the criteria for "unsuitable people", which at some point could include all sorts of undesirable, eventually including a class that might include me and thee.

My ex-wife thought the Nazi's should not have been allowed to march in Skokie. That certain groups do not deserve the right to free speech. My question to her was, "Who makes up the list of who is entitled to speak freely?" and she would flippantly say, "I will!"

As said before so eloquently, it's not called the "Bill of Needs" or the "Bill of Wants". It's the Bill of RIGHTS, and like speech and all the other rights enumerated, should not be infringed at the whim of the legislature, no matter their intentions.
Unsuitable people, criminals are easy to identify. In the UK we do bother about most road traffic offences nor minor offences committed as a juvenile.

Nuts are harder, but in the UK we deal with that by the police meeting all applicants and them having to provide referees. That has weeded out many idiots who should not have a gun.

You missed my question before, would your friend object to selling via a dealer or similar so checks can be done on the buyer? Those checks would be first is the buyer already a gun owner who has been subject to checks? If so the deal can go through quickly. Or is the buyer unknown, in which case it will take a while.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 05:43 AM   #230
Skepticemea
Master Poster
 
Skepticemea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,769
Interesting point, Nessie.

Where in the USA's history has it had an internal tyrannical government whereby the population were required to take arms against it?

Being abducted by aliens would be a bad thing, however I feel no need to take measures to prevent this from happening to me.
__________________
Learn the words!

Last edited by Skepticemea; 31st December 2012 at 05:45 AM.
Skepticemea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 06:05 AM   #231
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,099
Originally Posted by Skepticemea View Post
Interesting point, Nessie.

Where in the USA's history has it had an internal tyrannical government whereby the population were required to take arms against it?

Being abducted by aliens would be a bad thing, however I feel no need to take measures to prevent this from happening to me.
The USA's government and military have a fine tradition of standing up to tyranny. Indeed during the Cold War the USA was the one country in the world which was still able to stand up to tyranny, the British having exhausted themselves during the standing up to the previous tyranny.

The US police and justice system have a fine tradition of following the rule of law and to ask them to stop that would be to ask them to do a complete volt face.

Yet, despite all of that history, some Americans reject their history and country's principles by claiming they are in danger from tyranny to such an extent they need to arm themselves.

I think those Americans need to be able to explain in great detail why they insult their politicians, military, police and justice systems by saying I have so little faith in you I need a gun to protect myself from you.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 06:05 AM   #232
Fast Eddie B
Graduate Poster
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 1,999
First, my friend is not concerned that his selling of weapons will make him a criminal. He's concerned that the reclassification of certain weapons already lawfully owned will turn him overnight into a criminal.

As far as the UK being safe from tyranny, I'd stipulate to that, and the US as well, as of now. If you are saying it or the US will be forever safe from tyranny, I'd say that's a reach.

Think of how Jewish German doctors and professors and intellectuals must have felt in the 1920's and 1930's. Probably felt similarly - we're a cultured, sensitive, intelligent country. Our leaders are elected. There are checks and balances. Wear a Star of David? You must be joking. You're not? Well, OK. And so on, right into the showers.

A chilling scene plays out in Schindler's List (the book, not the movie) where townspeople are called to the synagogue and young Geman soldiers order them to urinate on the Torah. The same, "You're joking" sentiment fom the elders, until they realize how deadly serious they are - literally.

Of course, we'd never get to the point of putting America citizens in camps for their ethnicity. Would we?
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 06:06 AM   #233
BStrong
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 6,125
Originally Posted by rikzilla View Post
I never said you would be denied anything. I simply asked how your life would change if you no longer owned one. It's a fairly simple question. It would be pretty easy to answer too if you could disassociate your emotions and no longer equate your American identity with the possession of a thing.

That's the crux of the problem as I see it. The weapon has become important to folks such as your good self in ways that, before the Newtown tragedy, I just never grasped. It has elements of nationalism, it lends power, it brings comfort, it makes one more of a "man". It's a security blanket, an American totem, and a quasi sexual/religious symbol.

I think I understand now, because I just threw up a little in my throat...

-z
And evidentely the issue allows folks to hop right on a moral, intellectual and psychological high horse.

Watch out for nosebleeds.
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 06:19 AM   #234
Skepticemea
Master Poster
 
Skepticemea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,769
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Of course, we'd never get to the point of putting America citizens in camps for their ethnicity. Would we?
A massive segue, but I can't image you are asserting that if Germans were as well armed in the 30s as Americans are today that the Holocaust would never have happened. That's a massive logical leap.

I'm not sure the number of accidental gun deaths alone don't make the premium for insuring America against it's own elected officials throwing them into camps isn't a little too high. But that's been argued to death and neither flank will move on the back of a slightly strangled analogy.

Still intrigued as to the phrase "good tool", mind.
__________________
Learn the words!
Skepticemea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 07:09 AM   #235
Fast Eddie B
Graduate Poster
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 1,999
Originally Posted by Skepticemea View Post
A massive segue, but I can't image you are asserting that if Germans were as well armed in the 30s as Americans are today that the Holocaust would never have happened. That's a massive logical leap.
I've recommended some books about the part armed resistance played in the Warsaw Ghetto (The Wall by John Hersey) and in Poland (The Avengers - A Jewish War Story by Rick Cohen).

The armed insurrection in the Warsaw ghetto ultimately failed, but I believe Hitler needed far more troops to liquidate it than he had planned - troops that were sorely needed on the eastern front. We (the US) aided them in some small way by dropping "Liberator" .45 pistols to them to give them some means of armed resistance. - necessary because the ghetto had been pretty effectively disarmed ahead of the liquidation. It may have helped in some small way win the war for the Allies - maybe there's a Hardcore History episode in there somewhere.

The Holocaust would almost certainly have happened regardless. But imagine if, one average, one in every ten Jews exterminated had managed to take one German soldier with him when they came door-to-door. Hard not to see that an additional 600,000 dead German soldiers might not have helped bring a quicker end to the war.

The word "paranoid" gets tossed around a lot. My wife think I may have offended a friend when I asked at what point his line of thinking* became paranoid. I did not call him paranoid, but couched it as above. But I guess its a rare paranoid that labels himself paranoid!


*He thinks Bernanke et al are a money and power seeking cabal, ready to use UN Treaties to disarm and enslave the American people., as part of a New World Order. It then sorta swerved into a leader arising in the east that started to sound like the anti-Christ.
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 07:12 AM   #236
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,099
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
First, my friend is not concerned that his selling of weapons will make him a criminal. He's concerned that the reclassification of certain weapons already lawfully owned will turn him overnight into a criminal.
Would your friend refuse to obey a law that mean all sales had to go via a dealer or other thrid party who does background checks?

Quote:
As far as the UK being safe from tyranny, I'd stipulate to that, and the US as well, as of now. If you are saying it or the US will be forever safe from tyranny, I'd say that's a reach.
I would say it is an insult to two great countries with great histories of standing up to tyranny.

Quote:
Think of how Jewish German doctors and professors and intellectuals must have felt in the 1920's and 1930's. Probably felt similarly - we're a cultured, sensitive, intelligent country. Our leaders are elected. There are checks and balances. Wear a Star of David? You must be joking. You're not? Well, OK. And so on, right into the showers.

A chilling scene plays out in Schindler's List (the book, not the movie) where townspeople are called to the synagogue and young Geman soldiers order them to urinate on the Torah. The same, "You're joking" sentiment fom the elders, until they realize how deadly serious they are - literally.

Of course, we'd never get to the point of putting America citizens in camps for their ethnicity. Would we?
So I am supposed to believe that the only people who will forever stand up to tyranny are the citizen gun owners? The politicians, the military, the police, the criminal justice system they cannot be trusted to forever stand up to tyranny?
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 08:25 AM   #237
Fast Eddie B
Graduate Poster
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 1,999
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post

I would say it is an insult to two great countries with great histories of standing up to tyranny.
I really don't mean to insult them - great sacrifices have been made fighting tyranny, and I applaud them for that.

I'll say the past informs the future, but does not guarantee it.

Is it totally inconceivable* that any country could lapse into tyranny?

Imagine its 2075. England has a Muslim majority and the Muslim Brotherhood has steadily risen in popularity and influence and a Muslim Brotherhood Prime Minister is elected. Who then begins to act as Morsi did in Egypt recently.

Maybe that IS impossible. Maybe there's something in the British (or American) character that sets them apart from such eventualities.

Just color me skeptical.

And again, I'm not saying that any of this is likely or probable - only possible.


*I have to be reminded of The Princess Bride here!

Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 31st December 2012 at 08:41 AM.
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 08:30 AM   #238
shawmutt
Squirrel Murderer
 
shawmutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,039
Originally Posted by Skepticemea
Where in the USA's history has it had an internal tyrannical government whereby the population were required to take arms against it?
Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
Been that way in this country for over 200 years... society is still thriving... perfect, no, but you know what they say about Utopia.
anti-gun premise #125 "Bad things haven't happened in a long time, therefore they never will"

rebuttal: *facepalm* (I mean, what kind of response do you give someone who is blatantly ignoring all historical and current world events?)

Last edited by shawmutt; 31st December 2012 at 08:35 AM.
shawmutt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 09:06 AM   #239
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8,099
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I really don't mean to insult them - great sacrifices have been made fighting tyranny, and I applaud them for that.

I'll say the past informs the future, but does not guarantee it.

Is it totally inconceivable* that any country could lapse into tyranny?

Imagine its 2075. England has a Muslim majority and the Muslim Brotherhood has steadily risen in popularity and influence and a Muslim Brotherhood Prime Minister is elected. Who then begins to act as Morsi did in Egypt recently.

Maybe that IS impossible. Maybe there's something in the British (or American) character that sets them apart from such eventualities.

Just color me skeptical.

And again, I'm not saying that any of this is likely or probable - only possible.


*I have to be reminded of The Princess Bride here!
Sorry, but that just shows how much you have to fantasise to create a situation where the UK or USA lapses into tyranny where only the civilian gun owners are the ones who will stand up to it.

What you are claiming is that tyranny has a chance of success such that it will get a grip of the government, military, police, the criminal justice system and leave only the civilian gun owners immune from its grip and left to fight against it. Sorry, but that sounds like a script for Hollywood and it has no basis to be a reason to heavily arm the civilian population.

I see you keep referring back to Germany. Ironically it is a country that has learned from its past and tyranny has no chance of getting a grip of it again as the Germans, from the government to the military to the police to the people would not let it happen. One country that is an example of not yet learning its lesson and still being prone to tyranny is Russia.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2012, 09:30 AM   #240
shawmutt
Squirrel Murderer
 
shawmutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,039
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Sorry, but that just shows how much you have to fantasise to create a situation where the UK or USA lapses into tyranny where only the civilian gun owners are the ones who will stand up to it.

What you are claiming is that tyranny has a chance of success such that it will get a grip of the government, military, police, the criminal justice system and leave only the civilian gun owners immune from its grip and left to fight against it. Sorry, but that sounds like a script for Hollywood and it has no basis to be a reason to heavily arm the civilian population.

I see you keep referring back to Germany. Ironically it is a country that has learned from its past and tyranny has no chance of getting a grip of it again as the Germans, from the government to the military to the police to the people would not let it happen. One country that is an example of not yet learning its lesson and still being prone to tyranny is Russia.
Anti-gun premise #342: Civilians don't stand a chance against a tyrannical government.

Rebuttal: Speaking of Hollywood, it seems like a gross oversimplification of what has happened in the past, and what is sure to happen in the future. The government is made up of citizens. They aren't automatons. They have family and friends in this country. Should the government want to increase its power, it would still want people to rule.

Conversely, the "gun from my cold dead hands" folks aren't living on an island separated from the general population. The government can't just drop a nuke in some remote forest in Colorado and be done with it.

Google "Oath Keepers". There is a contingency within the military and civilian police who refuse to follow orders in direct conflict of our Constitution. Keep in mind, this is just the most vocal and willing to "put themselves out there".

Last edited by shawmutt; 31st December 2012 at 09:32 AM.
shawmutt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:26 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.