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Old 31st December 2012, 09:33 AM   #241
Fast Eddie B
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I'll just fall back on a maxim I learned from the financial world...

..."It's NEVER different this time!"
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Old 31st December 2012, 09:38 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
What you are claiming is that tyranny has a chance of success such that it will get a grip of the government, military, police, the criminal justice system and leave only the civilian gun owners immune from its grip and left to fight against it.
Well, I guess that's my claim.

Did the German military, police and criminal justice system effectively stand up to Hitler? I know an attempt was made on his life, but everyone ended up pretty much going along with the tyranny once it got rolling.

And the French police often aided and abetted the Nazis in Occupied France.

The key word in my quote above is "chance" - and to repeat, that's all I'm saying. - these things have happened repeatedly and with regularity over recorded history, and I think its naive to think "It can't happen here!" (credit - Frank Zappa)
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Old 31st December 2012, 09:45 AM   #243
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Conspiracy theories aside, it appears that gun lovers are ready to stop being "law abiding" gun lovers at the slightest drop of a hat. If that's true, and they are only law abiding so long as the law suits them, then that's hardly an endorsement of their fitness to brandish weapons. They are certainly not the sort of people I want having concealed weapons permits or walking around with rifles on shoulder straps in "open carry" states.

This guy was seen walking around just days after Newtown.

Quote:
Dean said his AR-15 rifle was loaded when he walked from the West End to Parkside to the busy Back Cove Trail. Police said 65 people called the department to report concerns about a man carrying a gun along city streets.

Dean was stopped and questioned by police, but it is legal in Maine to carry a gun in public, so he was not charged with any crime. Police did not know who Dean was because he had no obligation to identify himself.
People like this are unhinged. The fact that he felt compelled to do something like this, and scare the crap out of his neighbors, is horrifying. And so is this one of the people who is only following the law so long as the law says he can walk around normal people strapped with his AR-15? Because I'm not seeing that as an argument against gun control. I don't want to bring my kids to a movie and have people like this holding their weapons. Shooter? "Gun enthusiast?" Who knows? Maybe I should bring my gun and assume he's a shooter and remove the threat? What could go wrong?
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Old 31st December 2012, 09:47 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
Anti-gun premise #342: Civilians don't stand a chance against a tyrannical government.

Rebuttal: Speaking of Hollywood, it seems like a gross oversimplification of what has happened in the past, and what is sure to happen in the future. The government is made up of citizens. They aren't automatons. They have family and friends in this country. Should the government want to increase its power, it would still want people to rule.

Conversely, the "gun from my cold dead hands" folks aren't living on an island separated from the general population. The government can't just drop a nuke in some remote forest in Colorado and be done with it.

Google "Oath Keepers". There is a contingency within the military and civilian police who refuse to follow orders in direct conflict of our Constitution. Keep in mind, this is just the most vocal and willing to "put themselves out there".
The Oath Keepers? That Christian extremist group? Perhaps you can give an example of which orders would be in direct conflict with our Constitution, and who decides what that interpretation is?
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Old 31st December 2012, 09:49 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Conspiracy theories aside, it appears that gun lovers are ready to stop being "law abiding" gun lovers at the slightest drop of a hat. If that's true, and they are only law abiding so long as the law suits them, then that's hardly an endorsement of their fitness to brandish weapons. They are certainly not the sort of people I want having concealed weapons permits or walking around with rifles on shoulder straps in "open carry" states.

This guy was seen walking around just days after Newtown.



People like this are unhinged. The fact that he felt compelled to do something like this, and scare the crap out of his neighbors, is horrifying. And so is this one of the people who is only following the law so long as the law says he can walk around normal people strapped with his AR-15? Because I'm not seeing that as an argument against gun control. I don't want to bring my kids to a movie and have people like this holding their weapons. Shooter? "Gun enthusiast?" Who knows? Maybe I should bring my gun and assume he's a shooter and remove the threat? What could go wrong?
Oh Unaboogie. Trying to nail down all your premises was a chore, and the main reason I started doing it. For you:

Unaboogie
Premises:
a. Fear of guns means there’s a gun problem in America
b. Bushmaster is the weapon of choice for murder rampages
c. “Sick to death of guns”
d. The “most deadly weapons” need to be removed from society
e. Limits need to be placed on gun shows
f. Home ownership of guns should come with strict responsibilities
g. Move towards the goal of no one having guns
h. Supposedly responsible gun owners use their self-defense right to harm others
i. Gun hobby a huge waste of money
j. Make gun ownership illegal to stop people from enjoying it
k. Gun owners love their guns
l. Ban all guns
m. Proposed AWB is a “good start” (2. #4)
n. Gun enthusiasts are paranoid and crazy (2. #4, #55)
o. Banning guns works elsewhere (2. #45)
p. Gun enthusiasts have an unhealthy emotional attachment to their guns (2. #56)
q. License guns like cars, yearly safety checks, gun tax (2. #92)
r. No one needs large amount (#?) of guns (2. #94)
s. “Collections” = Arsenal (2. #94)
t. Anyone under 18 should not be allowed to shoot (2. #105)
u. Gun owners are ticking time bombs
v. Criminal gun use costs massive amounts of money (2. #115)
w. Guns are nothing but a blight (2. #144)

Misperceptions:
a. Easy for a felon to get his gun rights reinstated
b. Fireman shooter was able to get his firearm rights restored
c. Semi-autos are better at “spray and pray”
d. There is no extra gun tax
e. There are no controls to remove already owned firearms and licenses
f. There are not enough controls
g. There are no consequences for irresponsible gun handling

Which would you like to go over first?
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Old 31st December 2012, 09:52 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
The Oath Keepers? That Christian extremist group?
Different group.

That's Promise Keepers. And I'm not that familiar with them, but think they're more fundamentalist than extremist.

Interesting knee-jerk, though.

Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 31st December 2012 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 31st December 2012, 09:59 AM   #247
Unabogie
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Different group.

That's Promise Keepers. And I'm not that familiar with them, but think they're more fundamentalist than extremist.

Interesting knee-jerk, though.
Sorry, excuse me?

So they aren't Christian, just extremist?

http://www.lvrj.com/news/oath-keeper...-64690232.html

You find these people normal?
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Old 31st December 2012, 10:01 AM   #248
Unabogie
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
Oh Unaboogie. Trying to nail down all your premises was a chore, and the main reason I started doing it. For you:

Unaboogie
Premises:
a. Fear of guns means there’s a gun problem in America
b. Bushmaster is the weapon of choice for murder rampages
c. “Sick to death of guns”
d. The “most deadly weapons” need to be removed from society
e. Limits need to be placed on gun shows
f. Home ownership of guns should come with strict responsibilities
g. Move towards the goal of no one having guns
h. Supposedly responsible gun owners use their self-defense right to harm others
i. Gun hobby a huge waste of money
j. Make gun ownership illegal to stop people from enjoying it
k. Gun owners love their guns
l. Ban all guns
m. Proposed AWB is a “good start” (2. #4)
n. Gun enthusiasts are paranoid and crazy (2. #4, #55)
o. Banning guns works elsewhere (2. #45)
p. Gun enthusiasts have an unhealthy emotional attachment to their guns (2. #56)
q. License guns like cars, yearly safety checks, gun tax (2. #92)
r. No one needs large amount (#?) of guns (2. #94)
s. “Collections” = Arsenal (2. #94)
t. Anyone under 18 should not be allowed to shoot (2. #105)
u. Gun owners are ticking time bombs
v. Criminal gun use costs massive amounts of money (2. #115)
w. Guns are nothing but a blight (2. #144)

Misperceptions:
a. Easy for a felon to get his gun rights reinstated
b. Fireman shooter was able to get his firearm rights restored
c. Semi-autos are better at “spray and pray”
d. There is no extra gun tax
e. There are no controls to remove already owned firearms and licenses
f. There are not enough controls
g. There are no consequences for irresponsible gun handling

Which would you like to go over first?
The fact that you can't even spell my name right leads me to believe your misinterpretations of my positions won't fare any better. How about you stop this nonsense and respond to something specific instead of snipping words out of context?

And try and get my name right. That's a good start.
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Old 31st December 2012, 10:11 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
The fact that you can't even spell my name right leads me to believe your misinterpretations of my positions won't fare any better. How about you stop this nonsense and respond to something specific instead of snipping words out of context?

And try and get my name right. That's a good start.
anti-logic argument #1: you made a typing mistake, therefore you're wrong.

I want to understand your viewpoint. Please provide the premise I am misrepresenting. Maybe if we can nail down one or two without Gish galloping all around we can get somewhere.

I did try to cite the source and post number after a while, but I got tired of doing that for all the rehashed arguments (from everyone, not just you). However, I will be happy to provide the source for your premises if you need me to. The 2. is for this thread, numbers are obviously the post numbers.

Last edited by shawmutt; 31st December 2012 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 31st December 2012, 10:17 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
Anti-gun premise #342: Civilians don't stand a chance against a tyrannical government.
That was not my premise. My premise is that in the USA there will never be a situation where the gun owning civilians are the only ones left standing up to a tyrannical government. Anyone who wants to try and set up a tyranny in the USA will also face a fight by politicians, the military, the police, the criminal justice system. A far more likely scenario is another civil war where the pro-tyranny side spilt with the anti from politicians down to gun owning civilians, some who may favour the tyrannical government and its policies.

Quote:
Rebuttal: Speaking of Hollywood, it seems like a gross oversimplification of what has happened in the past, and what is sure to happen in the future. The government is made up of citizens. They aren't automatons. They have family and friends in this country. Should the government want to increase its power, it would still want people to rule.

Conversely, the "gun from my cold dead hands" folks aren't living on an island separated from the general population. The government can't just drop a nuke in some remote forest in Colorado and be done with it.

Google "Oath Keepers". There is a contingency within the military and civilian police who refuse to follow orders in direct conflict of our Constitution. Keep in mind, this is just the most vocal and willing to "put themselves out there".
All the more reason not to fear tyranny to such an extent civilians claim a need to keep guns to protect themselves from their fellow citizens.
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Old 31st December 2012, 10:26 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Well, I guess that's my claim.

Did the German military, police and criminal justice system effectively stand up to Hitler? I know an attempt was made on his life, but everyone ended up pretty much going along with the tyranny once it got rolling.

And the French police often aided and abetted the Nazis in Occupied France.

The key word in my quote above is "chance" - and to repeat, that's all I'm saying. - these things have happened repeatedly and with regularity over recorded history, and I think its naive to think "It can't happen here!" (credit - Frank Zappa)
So the USA has insufficient checks and balances and not enough decent people in its government, military, police and justice system to prevent it from going rogue?

The only guarantee is allowing some of its citizens to arm themselves on an ad hoc voluntary basis?! Did you know that consistently in surveys of gun owners, they are found to be a majority Republican? Maybe if a tyranny was to be set up if it was a Republican one, a majority of the civilian gun owners would end up supporting it?
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Old 31st December 2012, 10:42 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
anti-logic argument #1: you made a typing mistake, therefore you're wrong.

I want to understand your viewpoint. Please provide the premise I am misrepresenting. Maybe if we can nail down one or two without Gish galloping all around we can get somewhere.

I did try to cite the source and post number after a while, but I got tired of doing that for all the rehashed arguments (from everyone, not just you). However, I will be happy to provide the source for your premises if you need me to. The 2. is for this thread, numbers are obviously the post numbers.
I was just pointing out how little reading you're doing as opposed to posting.

If you really want to understand my viewpoint, pick one of my posts, quote it, and ask me a question about it. I'll be happy to answer when I have time, and if you make a good point I'll make sure to credit it. Snipping my posts into an abbreviated list isn't a good way to have a conversation. Do you do that when you talk with people, too?
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Old 31st December 2012, 11:04 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
I was just pointing out how little reading you're doing as opposed to posting.

If you really want to understand my viewpoint, pick one of my posts, quote it, and ask me a question about it. I'll be happy to answer when I have time, and if you make a good point I'll make sure to credit it. Snipping my posts into an abbreviated list isn't a good way to have a conversation. Do you do that when you talk with people, too?
We got more wiggling going on here than at an Elvis convention. I gave you all your premises stated over (now 5) threads. We can certainly get started if you want to list the first one I am misrepresenting.

Your new premise: shawmutt is posting more than he is reading

rebuttal: I've painstakingly read every post on the (now 5) gun threads, as evidenced by my listing of every premise you've made.

Last edited by shawmutt; 31st December 2012 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 31st December 2012, 11:06 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
We got more wiggling going on here than at an Elvis convention. I gave you all your premises stated over (now 5) threads. We can certainly get started if you want to list the first one I am misrepresenting.
If you really want to understand my viewpoint, pick one of my posts, quote it, and ask me a question about it. I'll be happy to answer when I have time, and if you make a good point I'll make sure to credit it. Snipping my posts into an abbreviated list isn't a good way to have a conversation. Do you do that when you talk with people, too?
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Old 31st December 2012, 11:08 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Do you do that when you talk with people, too?
Do you jump around premises like a Tourettes sufferer on caffeine when you talk to people, too?

It's really not difficult. Do you agree or disagree with your stated premises?
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Old 31st December 2012, 11:15 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
My premise is that in the USA there will never be a situation where the gun owning civilians are the only ones left standing up to a tyrannical government.
Boy, "never" is a long time!

Reminds me of this, on another topic but relevant:

Clarke's First Law: "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."
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Old 31st December 2012, 11:25 AM   #257
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Let's put it this way. If the USA is in that situation, your toy guns won't be much help.
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Old 31st December 2012, 11:32 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Let's put it this way. If the USA is in that situation, your toy guns won't be much help.
Anti-gun premise #342 (I seriously need to start a real list): Civilians don't stand a chance against a tyrannical government.

Rebuttal: Speaking of Hollywood, it seems like a gross oversimplification of what has happened in the past, and what is sure to happen in the future. The government is made up of citizens. They aren't automatons. They have family and friends in this country. Should the government want to increase its power, it would still want people to rule.

Conversely, the "gun from my cold dead hands" folks aren't living on an island separated from the general population. The government can't just drop a nuke in some remote forest in Colorado and be done with it.

Google "Oath Keepers". There is a contingency within the military and civilian police who refuse to follow orders in direct conflict of our Constitution. Keep in mind, this is just the most vocal and willing to "put themselves out there".
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Old 31st December 2012, 12:17 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Boy, "never" is a long time!

Reminds me of this, on another topic but relevant:

Clarke's First Law: "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."
Semantics, one of the last retreats of someone so boxed in they have nothing else to offer as a reasoned argument.

I am sure you understand risk, but I am not so sure you are able to make a reasoned assessment of risk when it comes to guns.
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Old 31st December 2012, 12:25 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
Google "Oath Keepers". There is a contingency within the military and civilian police who refuse to follow orders in direct conflict of our Constitution. Keep in mind, this is just the most vocal and willing to "put themselves out there".
http://www.lvrj.com/news/oath-keeper...-64690232.html

Quote:
The group's Web site, www.oathkeepers.org, features videos and testimonials in which supporters compare President Barack Obama's America to Adolf Hitler's Germany. They also liken Obama to England's King George III during the American Revolution.

One member, in a videotaped speech at an event in Washington, D.C., calls Obama "the domestic enemy the Constitution is talking about."
"Out there" is a very good description.
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Old 31st December 2012, 12:27 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
Anti-gun premise #342 (I seriously need to start a real list): Civilians don't stand a chance against a tyrannical government.

......
Can you example a successful defeat of tyranny by armed civilians alone, fighting against the country's government, police, army and criminal justice system?

An actual study finds such situations do not exist and what really happens is protests or a civil war to one extent or another where the various parts, government, military, police faction either against each other or within themselves and part joins with the civilians.

You have also failed to take into account my point that some or even a majority of gun owners may find themselves supporting the tyranny. That is the reality of tyranny.
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Old 31st December 2012, 12:28 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
http://www.lvrj.com/news/oath-keeper...-64690232.html



"Out there" is a very good description.
That's your rebuttal? A quick Google search on "Oath Keepers are crazy!"

I see you can't address any of your stated premises, so you keep injecting more.
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Old 31st December 2012, 12:29 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Can you example a successful defeat of tyranny by armed civilians alone, fighting against the country's government, police, army and criminal justice system?

An actual study finds such situations do not exist and what really happens is protests or a civil war to one extent or another where the various parts, government, military, police faction either against each other or within themselves and part joins with the civilians.

You have also failed to take into account my point that some or even a majority of gun owners may find themselves supporting the tyranny. That is the reality of tyranny.
American Revolutionary War.
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Old 31st December 2012, 12:59 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
American Revolutionary War.
The Colonial civilians were no where near as effective as the French professional mercenaries hired to fight the British. Indeed the British used German mercenaries in the War. In any case, the American Colonial Government was also fighting for Independence and it was not the armed civilians acting on their own. Furthermore many colonists fought with the British and left after Independence was gained. So some of your armed citizens fought for the 'wrong' side.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british...coats_01.shtml

I think that the idea of a civilian militia over throwing a tyranny may well have come from a fantasy ideal of the American War of Independence. I take it you have seen the Mel Gibson film 'The Patriot'? He did the same with us and 'Braveheart'
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Old 31st December 2012, 01:07 PM   #265
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And now the historical posturing begins.

Stick to a subject, please, anti-gunners. That will greatly increase your odds of educating yourselves sufficiently to make a cogent point. I recommend you begin with proposing new legislation and backing it up with reasoning. Some of you are doing this, and doing reasonably well... Others are just filling the board with nonsense.
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Old 31st December 2012, 01:09 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
And now the historical posturing begins.

Stick to a subject, please, anti-gunners. That will greatly increase your odds of educating yourselves sufficiently to make a cogent point. I recommend you begin with proposing new legislation and backing it up with reasoning. Some of you are doing this, and doing reasonably well... Others are just filling the board with nonsense.
I agree, and can the pro gunners also stick to the subject and back up what they say.
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Old 31st December 2012, 02:04 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
That's your rebuttal? A quick Google search on "Oath Keepers are crazy!"

I see you can't address any of your stated premises, so you keep injecting more.
I Googled the Oath Keepers, and some of their own quotes came up. What, you cite them as an example of rational gun ownership but you don't want to be responsible for defending them?

They are nuts. They are paranoid, right wing, nuts.

You disagree? You don't think they are crazy whacktards?

Interesting (*writes in notebook*)!
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Old 31st December 2012, 03:30 PM   #268
shawmutt
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
I Googled the Oath Keepers, and some of their own quotes came up. What, you cite them as an example of rational gun ownership but you don't want to be responsible for defending them?

They are nuts. They are paranoid, right wing, nuts.

You disagree? You don't think they are crazy whacktards?

Interesting (*writes in notebook*)!
Premise: standing up for the Constitution makes one a paranoid right wing nut.

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Old 31st December 2012, 03:33 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The Colonial civilians were no where near as effective as the French professional mercenaries hired to fight the British. Indeed the British used German mercenaries in the War. In any case, the American Colonial Government was also fighting for Independence and it was not the armed civilians acting on their own. Furthermore many colonists fought with the British and left after Independence was gained. So some of your armed citizens fought for the 'wrong' side.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british...coats_01.shtml

I think that the idea of a civilian militia over throwing a tyranny may well have come from a fantasy ideal of the American War of Independence. I take it you have seen the Mel Gibson film 'The Patriot'? He did the same with us and 'Braveheart'
Would you agree that any conflict is a messy complicated endeavor?
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Old 31st December 2012, 03:40 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
Premise: standing up for the Constitution makes one a paranoid right wing nut.

Wow. You are who I thought you were. Thanks for clarifying. Do you agree with the Oath Keepers that Barack Obama is like Hitler? Or is he worse than Hitler?
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Old 31st December 2012, 03:54 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Wow. You are who I thought you were. Thanks for clarifying. Do you agree with the Oath Keepers that Barack Obama is like Hitler? Or is he worse than Hitler?
Man you just keep on piling on those premises! Can't answer for any others?
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Old 31st December 2012, 04:12 PM   #272
Unabogie
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
Man you just keep on piling on those premises! Can't answer for any others?
I don't think you understand what the word "premise" means. It's not a synonym for "posts". But I digress.

You brought up the Oath Keepers, not me, didn't you? And then you tried to say that calling the Oath Keepers, who the SPLC considers a hate group, "nuts" was wrong since they are just a bunch of patriots intent on defending their strange interpretation of the Constitution. They, the Oath Keepers, consider President Obama to be like Hitler. They also claim to be defending against UN troops on American soil. I do not consider that sane or rational. You apparently do. If you do, then we can make some conclusions about your ability to approach issues like gun control and your general mental health.

I'm glad you brought them up, since pointing out how many of you "gun enthusiasts" subscribe to these bizarre fringe ideologies is a very good argument for gun control.
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Old 31st December 2012, 04:21 PM   #273
shawmutt
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
I don't think you understand what the word "premise" means. It's not a synonym for "posts". But I digress.
When pretty much every one of your posts starts a new premise, it might as well be synonymous. You seem to have a hard time staying on just one or two.

Quote:
You brought up the Oath Keepers, not me, didn't you?
...and why did I bring them up?

Quote:
And then you tried to say that calling the Oath Keepers, who the SPLC considers a hate group, "nuts" was wrong since they are just a bunch of patriots intent on defending their strange interpretation of the Constitution. They, the Oath Keepers, consider President Obama to be like Hitler. They also claim to be defending against UN troops on American soil. I do not consider that sane or rational. You apparently do. If you do, then we can make some conclusions about your ability to approach issues like gun control and your general mental health.

I'm glad you brought them up, since pointing out how many of you "gun enthusiasts" subscribe to these bizarre fringe ideologies is a very good argument for gun control.
You're going a bit off the deep end there buddy. You're making up my side of the argument and essentially arguing with yourself.

Care to address any of your stated premises from before or would you like to posit yet another? You have made four posts about the same thing, is it time to move on yet?

Last edited by shawmutt; 31st December 2012 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 31st December 2012, 04:30 PM   #274
Unabogie
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
When pretty much every one of your posts starts a new premise, it might as well be synonymous. You seem to have a hard time staying on just one or two.
And yet further down you accuse me of spending four posts on the same "premise". Again, you're not only inconsistent, but you keep misusing that word and I won't reward you for it.

Quote:
...and why did I bring them up?
That's what I'm trying to figure out, but you keep babbling about "premises".


Quote:
You're going a bit off the deep end there buddy. You're making up my side of the argument and essentially arguing with yourself.
I'm asking you questions. The only reason you think I'm arguing with myself is that you won't answer them.

Quote:
Care to address any of your stated premises from before or would you like to posit yet another? You have made four posts about the same thing, is it time to move on yet?
If you have something in particular in mind, feel free to quote that post and pose a question. Your lists are silly and don't further the conversation one bit.

I'll start. Do you agree with the Oath Keepers that President Obama is like Hitler?
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Old 31st December 2012, 04:38 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Do you agree with the Oath Keepers that President Obama is like Hitler?
No.

My turn.

Do you really believe there are no consequences for irresponsible firearm handling?
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Old 31st December 2012, 04:39 PM   #276
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
Anti-gun premise #342 (I seriously need to start a real list): Civilians don't stand a chance against a tyrannical government.

Rebuttal: Speaking of Hollywood, it seems like a gross oversimplification of what has happened in the past, and what is sure to happen in the future. The government is made up of citizens. They aren't automatons. They have family and friends in this country. Should the government want to increase its power, it would still want people to rule.

Conversely, the "gun from my cold dead hands" folks aren't living on an island separated from the general population. The government can't just drop a nuke in some remote forest in Colorado and be done with it.

Google "Oath Keepers". There is a contingency within the military and civilian police who refuse to follow orders in direct conflict of our Constitution. Keep in mind, this is just the most vocal and willing to "put themselves out there".
Premise: Red Dawn is a documentary.
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Old 31st December 2012, 04:42 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Premise: Red Dawn is a documentary.
The old one or the new one?
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Old 31st December 2012, 04:45 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
No.

My turn.

Do you really believe there are no consequences for irresponsible firearm handling?
When did I claim this? I think you're engaging in straw man arguments. By the way, what do you think the Oath Keepers mean when they say Obama is like Hitler? And since you disagree with them on that, in what areas do you agree with them that made you use them as a good example of a citizen militia fighting the tyrannical feds?
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Old 31st December 2012, 06:07 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
When did I claim this? I think you're engaging in straw man arguments. By the way, what do you think the Oath Keepers mean when they say Obama is like Hitler? And since you disagree with them on that, in what areas do you agree with them that made you use them as a good example of a citizen militia fighting the tyrannical feds?
Premise: Oath Keepers are patriotic americans that can keep the liberals from taking over.
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Old 31st December 2012, 06:10 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Wow. You are who I thought you were. Thanks for clarifying. Do you agree with the Oath Keepers that Barack Obama is like Hitler? Or is he worse than Hitler?
Hitler was a non-smoker.
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