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Old 24th January 2013, 03:43 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
No. What difference is there in believing in a sky daddy and believing in fairies?
Morning Dafydd, do you have much snow over there?

Fairies are a fictitious concept generated in the human mind. God is in some cases a fictitious concept generated in the human mind, however in other cases it is not. In the latter case it can be a cypher for the cause of our existence, a deity for example, and numerous other things.
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Old 24th January 2013, 03:46 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Well, you started the OP by saying that that is how you envision "believers".



You never made a distinction between fairy-fanatics and other types of believers. If you do believe in that distinction, then I take back what I said but you certainly didn't make it clear. From your OP it seemed that you put them all into one single pigeonhole entitled "believers".
That's probably because they all believe.
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Old 24th January 2013, 03:48 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
A good point. Is there a difference between believing in a sky daddy and believing that Reptilians control the world?
Nope.
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Old 24th January 2013, 03:49 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
You don't appear to know the definition of straw man. Pointing out that there is no proof for the existence of invisible magic beings is not a straw man.
It doesn't matter whatever reasoning is employed to justify a conclusion that there is no God/god, we are in actual fact none the wiser. Simply, humanity is not in a position to say what is the origin of our existence, or what else exists.

Oh and I know by the way about the big bang, QM etc, again we are none the wiser.
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Old 24th January 2013, 03:55 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Again, thats not what i asked for. What evidence do you have that the natural world is all there is ? Why does it need a mind to write a book, or a computer code, but not to create the information stored in DNA ??!!
Because DNA is not a book or a computer code.
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Old 24th January 2013, 03:55 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Good Lt View Post
You are not called upon to know or prove a negative.

The person making the claim has the burden of proof. The people asking for evidence do not have to prove that something that hasn't been proven to exist doesn't in fact exist.

See: Celestial teapot or the flying spaghetti monster. Prove they don't exist somewhere.
it seems you have a hard time to understand that i am not asking to prove a negative. I have clearly asked to present positive evidence for naturalism.
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Old 24th January 2013, 03:57 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
DNA is a string of chemicals. No mind needed. No god needed.
Indeed, its like a HD, which stores information. You need to answer where the information stored in DNA came from.......
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Old 24th January 2013, 03:58 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by deaman View Post
What do you have on hand to convince anyone that there is something else besides the natural world?
Its the thread starter that has a hard time with us. Its upon him to present his case for evaluation.
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Old 24th January 2013, 04:02 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Indeed, its like a HD, which stores information. You need to answer where the information stored in DNA came from.......
It was selected for, naturally.
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Old 24th January 2013, 05:07 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Dogdoctor View Post
Religion provides structure in peoples lives. It gives them comfort in troubled times and something to fall back on when the chips are down. Beleif in faries doesn't provide that.
Really? So a delusion that is comfortable is a good delusion?
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Old 24th January 2013, 05:09 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Indeed, its like a HD, which stores information. You need to answer where the information stored in DNA came from.......
Your analogy is wildly incorrect. As I've pointed out, DNA is a group of chemicals. Do you think gasoline has some mission to power automobiles?
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Old 24th January 2013, 05:12 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR
it seems you have a hard time to understand that i am not asking to prove a negative. I have clearly asked to present positive evidence for naturalism.
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
What do you have on hand, to convince me, the natural world is all there is ? once you accomplish that, i will deconvert.......
Your burden of proof, to show that there is anything more than this.

And I don't care of you deconvert or not.
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Old 24th January 2013, 05:17 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Morning Dafydd, do you have much snow over there?

Fairies are a fictitious concept generated in the human mind. God is in some cases a fictitious concept generated in the human mind, however in other cases it is not. In the latter case it can be a cypher for the cause of our existence, a deity for example, and numerous other things.
All gods are fictitious. The highlighted part is meaningless mystical mush. Why would we need a deity to cause our existence?

Last edited by dafydd; 24th January 2013 at 05:20 AM.
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Old 24th January 2013, 05:36 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Indeed, its like a HD, which stores information. You need to answer where the information stored in DNA came from.......
Information is not stored in DNA. It is not a HD.
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Old 24th January 2013, 05:39 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Your analogy is wildly incorrect. As I've pointed out, DNA is a group of chemicals. Do you think gasoline has some mission to power automobiles?
Clearly the dinosaurs died that we might have energy and have it more abundantly.
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Old 24th January 2013, 05:40 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Clearly the dinosaurs died that we might have energy and have it more abundantly.
And the Sun wants to keep us warm.
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Old 24th January 2013, 05:40 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Dogdoctor View Post
It's really simple when something bad happens they pray to god. Instead of expending effort blaming themselves and expending effort trying to understand what happened. Atheists have to search for comfort and find ways to deal with whatever maybe even post about it on some interent board.
Sounds like a vote in favour of atheism to me. Self blame may or may not be appropriate (either way it is at least more realistic than blaming the Devil or assuming it's a punishment from God, which is another kind of self blame anyway), trying to understand what happened, trying to deal with it and seeking comfort from actual people rather than imaginary beings all seem like pretty sensible ways of dealing with 'something bad' happening.
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Old 24th January 2013, 05:41 AM   #98
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Can we move the naturalism part to the existing advocacy thread?
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Old 24th January 2013, 05:42 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Morning Dafydd, do you have much snow over there?

Fairies are a fictitious concept generated in the human mind. God is in some cases a fictitious concept generated in the human mind, however in other cases it is not. In the latter case it can be a cypher for the cause of our existence, a deity for example, and numerous other things.
Why the special pleading for the god concept?
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Old 24th January 2013, 05:45 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
it seems you have a hard time to understand that i am not asking to prove a negative. I have clearly asked to present positive evidence for naturalism.
Boy, that's a hard one...Oh wait, the sun came up today.
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Old 24th January 2013, 05:46 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
it seems you have a hard time to understand that i am not asking to prove a negative. I have clearly asked to present positive evidence for naturalism.
You're being asked to provide any evidence at all that a god or gods exist. You are making a claim that an invisible skybeing exists. So prove it. Show us the evidence.

Your question, on the other hand, makes no sense. It's like asking somebody to prove that capitalism exists.

And your approach is a fallacy. Even if naturalism/capitalism/atheism/etc. didn't exist, that doesn't prove that god(s) exist. You still have to prove that with positive and verifiable evidence. You don't 'win by default' here.
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Last edited by Good Lt; 24th January 2013 at 05:48 AM.
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Old 24th January 2013, 05:51 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
What gets me, what really just makes my brain hurt is trying to figure out the disconnect, how demonstratably not crazy people can say crazy things.
How are these people "demonstrably not crazy?"

what if you look at it as "wow, that crazy person nearly managed to pass off as sane for a minute there" instead?
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Old 24th January 2013, 05:52 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Indeed, its like a HD, which stores information. You need to answer where the information stored in DNA came from.......
As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's not at all like that. To extend the computer analogy, think of a computer where every component -- the HD, the screen, the keyboard, the CPU -- has all the information needed to build a complete computer. That would be pretty cool, but it's not the way human beings design things, nor does it function in any way like a HD.

As to where the information comes from, keep in mind that it took billions of years to accumulate that information through trial and error. It was only very recently, in geological time, that the code grew robust enough to allow for multi-cellular organisms. Very inefficient use of time if there were an intelligent agent behind it.
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Old 24th January 2013, 05:56 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
it seems you have a hard time to understand that i am not asking to prove a negative. I have clearly asked to present positive evidence for naturalism.
Look out the window. See that? It's nature. Want to know how it works? There are science journals available online, although I doubt they can all be read within a normal lifetime.

Does naturalism explain everything? Not yet, but there's no reason to think it won't ever be able to.

If you can produce a philosophy that explains what you see out the window better than naturalism (that is, without invoking unseen supernatural beings) then let's see it.
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Old 24th January 2013, 06:16 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Why the special pleading for the god concept?
Because it's mystical.
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Old 24th January 2013, 06:22 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Let's take an intelligent person, A. Conan Doyle, and let's make him believe in something silly, say the Cottingly Fairies. Now he wants to tell you that they're real and they're the greatest thing on the planet.

This is how I look at believers. There's not significant difference for me between the Cottingly Fairies and Jehovah.
People believe what they feel comfortable with and its hard to reason with them.
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Old 24th January 2013, 06:50 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
All gods are fictitious. The highlighted part is meaningless mystical mush. Why would we need a deity to cause our existence?
Well, can you give an alternative explanation for our existence. As I said before I know about the big bang etc, that is not an explanation for our existence. Its an explanation of how the world we find ourselves in works, nothing more.

Now the more subtle point, do you think it is possible to think and talk about something which is not understood, or known?

Last edited by punshhh; 24th January 2013 at 07:01 AM.
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Old 24th January 2013, 07:00 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Why the special pleading for the god concept?
I don't need any special pleading, logic has provided me with an infinitely large gap to fit any God/god into, if I wanted to hide it.

Anyway back to my point, some believers and non believers consider the existence of a God/god, which is not a fiction and may be the origin of our existence.

If fairies were comparable, then there would be folk believing in omnipotent non fictional fairies.

How many omnipotent non fictional fairies can you fit on the head of a pin? Has logic got the answer?
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Old 24th January 2013, 08:06 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Well, can you give an alternative explanation for our existence. As I said before I know about the big bang etc, that is not an explanation for our existence. Its an explanation of how the world we find ourselves in works, nothing more.

Now the more subtle point, do you think it is possible to think and talk about something which is not understood, or known?
Can you elaborate on specifically what you feel is explained by 'Goddidit' that isn't explained by natural explanations?

The phrase 'alternative explanation' suggests 'Goddidit' is an explanation which I take issue with.
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Old 24th January 2013, 08:13 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Well, can you give an alternative explanation for our existence. As I said before I know about the big bang etc, that is not an explanation for our existence. Its an explanation of how the world we find ourselves in works, nothing more.
Why is an explanation needed?
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Old 24th January 2013, 08:14 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post

How many omnipotent non fictional fairies can you fit on the head of a pin? Has logic got the answer?
Yes. None. They don't exist.
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Old 24th January 2013, 08:45 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins
Well, you started the OP by saying that that is how you envision "believers".



You never made a distinction between fairy-fanatics and other types of believers. If you do believe in that distinction, then I take back what I said but you certainly didn't make it clear. From your OP it seemed that you put them all into one single pigeonhole entitled "believers".
Originally Posted by tsig View Post
That's probably because they all believe.
But they don't all believe with the same amount of blindness and unwillingness to question their beliefs. Not all believers are unable to question their beliefs. Not all believers are close minded obtuse brain washed people. That's my point: That the OP is putting them all into one single pigeonhole.
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Old 24th January 2013, 08:55 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Fairies are a fictitious concept generated in the human mind. God is in some cases a fictitious concept generated in the human mind, however in other cases it is not. In the latter case it can be a cypher for the cause of our existence, a deity for example, and numerous other things.
So what it seems to me you're saying is that a cypher for the cause of our existence (which apparently has quite a variable definition so therefore no one outside of your head can possibly be aware of what definition it is you're using) is not a fictitious concept?

If it's fact, then it can explained easily and briefly to mystic and non-mystic alike, right? Or will you be redefining what 'fact' means as well?


Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Well, can you give an alternative explanation for our existence. As I said before I know about the big bang etc, that is not an explanation for our existence. Its an explanation of how the world we find ourselves in works, nothing more.
Sounds to me like you're wanting to know why you're here on Earth in the first place? Why do you think the answers are found in mysticism? Why not read the Good Book; it has all the answers you need.


Quote:
Now the more subtle point, do you think it is possible to think and talk about something which is not understood, or known?
Not meaningfully, no.


Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
I don't need any special pleading, logic has provided me with an infinitely large gap to fit any God/god into, if I wanted to hide it.
Then it shouldn't take you long to concisely and accurately define what this infinitely large gap is. Using logic, of course.


Quote:
Anyway back to my point, some believers and non believers consider the existence of a God/god, which is not a fiction and may be the origin of our existence.
...some non-believers consider the existence of a God/god...? LOL

Please stop redefining or using words that have commonly understood meanings to try and make your 'point'.


Quote:
If fairies were comparable, then there would be folk believing in omnipotent non fictional fairies.
Apparently, there are quite a few. If you'd pretend for a moment you were unbiased, you'd see that.
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Old 24th January 2013, 08:57 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
But they don't all believe with the same amount of blindness and unwillingness to question their beliefs. Not all believers are unable to question their beliefs. Not all believers are close minded obtuse brain washed people. That's my point: That the OP is putting them all into one single pigeonhole.
To the OP apparently those distinguishing characteristics don't seem to matter much. Putting all 'believers [in x]' in the one, single category is valid even if it offends your sensibilities.
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Old 24th January 2013, 09:05 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
To the OP apparently those distinguishing characteristics don't seem to matter much. Putting all 'believers [in x]' in the one, single category is valid even if it offends your sensibilities.
True. Believing in fictional beings is believing in fictional beings.
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Old 24th January 2013, 09:06 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles View Post
Can you elaborate on specifically what you feel is explained by 'Goddidit' that isn't explained by natural explanations?
My position is that it is not irrational to consider a god.

Quote:
The phrase 'alternative explanation' suggests 'Goddidit' is an explanation which I take issue with.
I was addressing you. Can you be more specific.
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Old 24th January 2013, 09:08 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Why is an explanation needed?
It would help if you were going to say that to consider the existence of a god is mistaken or irrational.
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Old 24th January 2013, 09:09 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Yes. None. They don't exist.
How do you know? Does logic tell you?
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Old 24th January 2013, 09:09 AM   #119
Last of the Fraggles
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
My position is that it is not irrational to consider a god.

I was addressing you. Can you be more specific.
You stated that natural explanations you have heard were unsatisfactory as an alternative. I presumed you meant as an alternative explanation to supernatural ones - i.e. God(s)

My questions (which you didn't answer) were:

1. Which parts are unsatisfactory and why are they unsatisfactory?
2. What are the better explanations and why are they satisfactory?
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Old 24th January 2013, 09:12 AM   #120
dafydd
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
How do you know? Does logic tell you?
A complete lack of evidence tells me.
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