Another Responsible Gun Owner Stands His Ground

Unabogie · 29th January 2013, 06:56 PM

Well, they were in his driveway, and they looked ~~brown~~ suspicious. So he feared they were there to hurt them.

Makes perfect sense.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archive....php?ref=fpblg

Quote:

Rodrigo Diaz, 22, was driving around with his girlfriend and two friends when he pulled into a driveway, thinking they had arrived at another friend’s house, his brother says. But instead he pulled into the driveway of Phillip Sailors, 69, who thought his home was being robbed, his lawyer says. Sailors then shot Diaz, according to the police report, citing what Sailors told officers at the scene. Diaz later died after surgery.

“Basically, what happened is they were looking for one of my brother’s girlfriend’s friends,” says his brother David E. Diaz-Valencia, 23. “The guy came outside and my brother’s girlfriend said he was screaming, ‘Get off my property!’ and he shot into the air. My brother was backing out fast because he was scared and he rolled down the window to say he was sorry and he was not doing anything wrong. Then the guy shot him in his head.”

These harmless, inanimate objects sure do pack a wallop, though.

devnull · 29th January 2013, 07:09 PM

yeh, guns for home defense is just stupid. Use a baseball bat like I do, and leave the gun in the safe, like I do.

PhantomWolf · 29th January 2013, 07:09 PM

The NRA deserve the blame for this sort of thing. Thier ramping up the paranioa to the point where people start shooting each other for simply walking or driving onto their properties is completely crazy, but the whole NRA led gun industry wants USAers scared out of their tightie whites of each other so they'll all start packing 100 guns and a million rounds of ammo for when the gang bangers come to rape and murder them.

triforcharity · 29th January 2013, 07:15 PM

I'll agree with the very BASIC premise of this thread, though not the hyperbole and idiotic statements, just like we've seen in may other threads.

The guy doing the shooting, was absolutely wrong. No reasonable fear, victim was driving away, and he shot anyway.

Murder. Plain and simple. Agreed there.

The rest? Ignored.

sir drinks-a-lot · 29th January 2013, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

Well, they were in his driveway, and they looked ~~brown~~ suspicious.

Other than showing your racism fetish, what is your point?

triforcharity · 29th January 2013, 07:29 PM

And of course, leaving this out.

"He’s now in the county jail charged with murder."

Imagine that.

Una, why did you leave this part out?

Oh, and not to mention the broad brush.....

sir drinks-a-lot · 29th January 2013, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

And of course, leaving this out.

"He’s now in the county jail charged with murder."

Imagine that.

Una, why did you leave this part out?

He's cherry-picking like the pseudo skeptic he is...

Unabogie · 29th January 2013, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

And of course, leaving this out.

"He’s now in the county jail charged with murder."

Imagine that.

Una, why did you leave this part out?

Oh, and not to mention the broad brush.....

I didn't leave anything out, since I linked to the source. You should be aware that for some of us, the fact that the murderer was charged doesn't mitigate the fact that guns cost an innocent kid his life. So what if the idiot is charged? You think his family gives a **** about that?

WildCat · 29th January 2013, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

Well, they were in his driveway, and they looked ~~brown~~ suspicious.

He looks "brown" to you?

Why do you have to add a racial component to it? Wasn't juicy enough as it was?

StankApe · 29th January 2013, 08:02 PM

11,078 people died from gun related homocide last year, were you making posts about every single one of them too? Or did you wait until you hitched a ride on the trendy train on a one way ticket to Smugtown first?

PhantomWolf · 29th January 2013, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

And of course, leaving this out.

"He’s now in the county jail charged with murder."

Imagine that.

Una, why did you leave this part out?

Oh, and not to mention the broad brush.....

I don't think that the point was that he was wrong and should be charged with murder, a bind man and his dog would see that. The point is that He clearly didn't believe that what he was doing was wrong and was murder, and you can bet that his defence attorney will argue exactly that in court.

applecorped · 29th January 2013, 08:09 PM

If the shooter was a Republican and the victim a gay, immigrant Liberal we could a tri-fecta of righteous indignation. Yay!

PhantomWolf · 29th January 2013, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

He looks "brown" to you?

Why do you have to add a racial component to it? Wasn't juicy enough as it was?

Seriously. Do you think that if a bunch of white kids had driven into the guy's driveway he'd still have come out waving a gun and shooting?

BenBurch · 29th January 2013, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by StankApe

11,078 people died from gun related homocide last year, were you making posts about every single one of them too? Or did you wait until you hitched a ride on the trendy train on a one way ticket to Smugtown first?

Don't most of them deserve a post?

Remember we are talking human beings here. A Venn diagram that includes YOU.

StankApe · 29th January 2013, 08:18 PM

That's not the point. If we were discussing something else, nobody would be allowed to post anecdotes and scream indignation about them as evidence for an agenda.

and the fact remains that gun violence down almost half from the high point of the mid 90's, but media coverage of gun violence is wayyy up (especially lately)

It doesn't improve the situation to try and appeal to emotions ya know.

PhantomWolf · 29th January 2013, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by StankApe

11,078 people died from gun related homocide last year, were you making posts about every single one of them too? Or did you wait until you hitched a ride on the trendy train on a one way ticket to Smugtown first?

I think this one is actually more of interest because it directly relates to the hysteria that groups like the NRA have been creating. OMG you need guns to protect again the horrid gangs breaking in and shooting you. Now a man sees a bunch of minorities drive into his driveway and the first thing he thinks, dispite the real odds of it occuring, is that they are gang bangers coming to invade his hiome and kill him. That paranoia, created by the likes of the NRA, then leads to him charging out guns blazing and killing a totally innocent person. It's almost the perfect example of how the NRA are making things worse rather than better.

WildCat · 29th January 2013, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Seriously. Do you think that if a bunch of white kids had driven into the guy's driveway he'd still have come out waving a gun and shooting?

You could tell the kid was Colombian by looking at him, or even Hispanic?

And what do you know about the race of the other kids in the car? It's not even mentioned. It may well have been a "bunch of white kids".

eta: I see several of the quoted passengers have Hispanic names, but there's no indication that Sailor knew the race of the people in the car. Kind of hard to determine that at night when the windows are rolled up.

StankApe · 29th January 2013, 08:22 PM

That's an awful big assumption. How can you make the leap from A: the event to B: the NRA? (who I have no love for btw). Unless you discover later he was a faithful follower and reader of their material...

For all we know, he's just a damn fool and hates Mexicans or something. Or had some other issue going on that he mistook this car for.

triforcharity · 29th January 2013, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

I didn't leave anything out, since I linked to the source. You should be aware that for some of us, the fact that the murderer was charged doesn't mitigate the fact that guns cost an innocent kid his life. So what if the idiot is charged? You think his family gives a **** about that?

No, it doesn't, you're right.

However, the fact that he is being charged, and will almost certainly spend the rest of his life in prison, is of some comfort to the family.

But, the reason for posting this story, is simply to inflame others. It serves no other purpose. None.

He didn't stand his ground, as he was acting outside of the law.

He committed murder. Plain and simple.

People from all walks of life, do dumb ****. To attempt to label all people into one group (which is what I believe you're trying to do) is asinine. But, at least your posts are consistently asinine. Props there.

triforcharity · 29th January 2013, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

I don't think that the point was that he was wrong and should be charged with murder, a bind man and his dog would see that. The point is that He clearly didn't believe that what he was doing was wrong and was murder, and you can bet that his defence attorney will argue exactly that in court.

Ok......and this is different from many many many other cases, how?

And I can almost guarantee if this goes to trial, he'll be found guilty.

triforcharity · 29th January 2013, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Seriously. Do you think that if a bunch of white kids had driven into the guy's driveway he'd still have come out waving a gun and shooting?

Possibly, but since nobody is psychic as far as I am aware, we'll never know.

Meadmaker · 29th January 2013, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by StankApe

It doesn't improve the situation to try and appeal to emotions ya know.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "improve the situation".

Xulld · 29th January 2013, 08:37 PM

I dont know about anyone else, but I would love to see threads that are clearly baiting, with sarcastic titles be deleted.

"Another Responsible Gun Owner Stands His Ground"

From all reports this man was not responsible and does not represent me or any other gun owner. This thread is nothing more than a way to lash out against other forum members.

Meadmaker · 29th January 2013, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

However, the fact that he is being charged, and will almost certainly spend the rest of his life in prison, is of some comfort to the family.

I doubt it.

triforcharity · 29th January 2013, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Don't most of them deserve a post?

No. They don't. Unless there's something specific you want to discuss, do it. This asinine "oh, someone got shot" "someone died" let's make a new *********** thread game, is *********** stupid.

I'll just start posting a link to DGU's that are legit.

In fact, here's one.

http://www.guns.com/2013/01/29/new-y...rs-with-ar-15/

Meadmaker · 29th January 2013, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by Xulld

From all reports this man was not responsible and does not represent me......

You are probably correct, but I'm confident Mr. Sailors would have said exactly the same thing yesterday, reading about some other similar incident.

Quote:

or any other gun owner.

Now that's just silly.

triforcharity · 29th January 2013, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I doubt it.

Really? So all the times that I've seen parents, clearly distraught about an act of violence committed against their family, asking for the person to turn themselves in, or to call if you know something, etc. etc. etc. are doing it for fun?

You don't think that justice is not a comfort, even a small one? Why?

Meadmaker · 29th January 2013, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

Really? So all the times that I've seen parents, clearly distraught about an act of violence committed against their family, asking for the person to turn themselves in, or to call if you know something, etc. etc. etc. are doing it for fun?

You don't think that justice is not a comfort, even a small one? Why?

In this case, no.

If they are normal, they will want to see the law applied, and the man go to jail, but most people would find no comfort in it at all. They would see one life (their son's) lost, and another one destroyed.

Mr. Sailors deserves the punishment he will receive, and the family of Mr. Diaz will almost certainly agree with that, but that punishment itself will be a tragedy. Sailors didn't set out to do harm. He was afraid. A frightened little man scared out of his wits who let the fear take over him, and in so doing ended one life, and destroyed his own. When next Thanksgiving rolls around, the son's chair at the table will be missing at the Diaz household, and grandpa's chair will be empty at the Sailors family.

I doubt the Diaz family will see anything comforting about it.

DavidJames · 29th January 2013, 09:11 PM

From what I know now, Mr. Sailors is not much different than many of the gun lovers on this forum. I can't help but wonder if prior to today, if Mr. Sailors could have spoken any of the words of gun lovers posting in this thread.

Repeat after me (and Mr. Sailors)....those crazy things gun haters say might happen to us law abiding citizens, will never happen to me.

Lowpro · 29th January 2013, 09:15 PM

He's a guy who owned a gun legally (probably) and probably for the purposes of self defense. And now he will be a criminal who can no longer own a gun.

The system works. Instead of ending up as one statistic he ended up as another. Actually they swapped statistics come to think of it...

A responsible gun owner doesn't have the right to leave his house and start a fight with his gun. If he thought he was being robbed he should have called the police and kept himself safe. Leaving that house was not only unsafe it's not even a practical application of defense (Unless by being in the house you are less safe say they're setting it on fire...) by which having his gun at the ready should be called for. This man is just a murderer. He was not a responsible gun owner when he walked out of his door and neither was he a responsible citizen. He was a criminal the moment he walked out that door.

But at least now AFTER the fact we can make sure he doesn't have a gun right?

ben m · 29th January 2013, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

The guy doing the shooting, was absolutely wrong. No reasonable fear, victim was driving away, and he shot anyway.

Stupid shootings of retreating innocents are what you expect when you give guns to people with no training. Reasonable fear vs. unreasonable fear? Not obvious, not to a scared person full of adrenaline. Police and armed forces are taught rules of engagement, because if they weren't this sort of thing would happen.

So, oh, look: the NRA insists that anyone can buy a gun. The NRA decides that mandatory training would violate your 2nd Amendment rights. The NRA delivers its stream of rhetoric about armed bad guys poised to invade your home. Millions of scared, untrained amateurs buy guns and daydream about bad guys. Of course this leads to misjudgements. Misjudgements are practically built in to the system.

Anyway, let's compare what happens when an unreasonable, wrong home-invasion terror pops into the head of a non-gun-owner: He yells some racist garbage from his front porch. He throws a rock at the retreating car and dents it. He bars the door and calls 911. Unreasonable? Yes. Wrong? Yes. Number of dead people? Zero.

lionking · 29th January 2013, 09:38 PM

You give guns to people terrified of crimes they are unlikely to experience, what do you expect? Three times in the past few months people have mistakenly driven up my drive. Not only did I refrain from shooting them, I helped them find where they were going.

Charlie Wilkes · 29th January 2013, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

Well, they were in his driveway, and they looked ~~brown~~ suspicious. So he feared they were there to hurt them.

Makes perfect sense.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archive....php?ref=fpblg

These harmless, inanimate objects sure do pack a wallop, though.

"Puglise [lawyer for Sailors, the shooter] said the Sailors family is grief-stricken and is lifting the family of Diaz up in prayer."

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/man-69-...rong-ho/nT8xp/

Why is the shooter's family grief-stricken? They didn't even know the guy.

Kevin_Lowe · 29th January 2013, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Xulld

I dont know about anyone else, but I would love to see threads that are clearly baiting, with sarcastic titles be deleted.

"Another Responsible Gun Owner Stands His Ground"

From all reports this man was not responsible and does not represent me or any other gun owner. This thread is nothing more than a way to lash out against other forum members.

I took it as an ironic reference to the straw man of the "responsible gun owner" who is a major part of pro-gun rhetoric.

The reality, of course, is that those rationally in favour of gun control are worried about the irresponsible, the poorly trained, the irrational, the mentally ill and all the other people who for one reason or another will have access to a gun and will use it in ways which lead predictably to bad outcomes. In particular, bad outcomes which arise predictably and frequently enough to outweigh the good outcomes of weakly-controlled gun ownership.

The case is an excellent example of why a culture of fear and gun-ownership leads to bad outcomes.

Kilaak Kommander · 29th January 2013, 10:14 PM

The guy was outnumbered, so clearly he needed to take the first shot.

On a serious note, though, we don't know enough about Sailors to make any judgments. Did he have any sort of mental problems or history of violence that would make him a high risk gun owner, let alone a legal one?

And how would this have been prevented? Let's say he was a legal, law-abiding gun owner who was overreacting to paranoid rhetoric. How do you regulate paranoid rhetoric? How do identify who will overreact to it? How do you even define what it is? Home invasion does occur. Homeowners are injured and killed in the process, albeit rarely. What is a sensible level of warning, and an appropriate level of caution?

Charlie Wilkes · 29th January 2013, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe

I took it as an ironic reference to the straw man of the "responsible gun owner" who is a major part of pro-gun rhetoric.

Right, he's making fun of arguments that fly in the face of reality. If people can't handle that, too bad.

Charlie Wilkes · 29th January 2013, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Kilaak Kommander

The guy was outnumbered, so clearly he needed to take the first shot.

On a serious note, though, we don't know enough about Sailors to make any judgments. Did he have any sort of mental problems or history of violence that would make him a high risk gun owner, let alone a legal one?

And how would this have been prevented? Let's say he was a legal, law-abiding gun owner who was overreacting to paranoid rhetoric. How do you regulate paranoid rhetoric? How do identify who will overreact to it? How do you even define what it is? Home invasion does occur. Homeowners are injured and killed in the process, albeit rarely. What is a sensible level of warning, and an appropriate level of caution?

Sailors’ friends and family said instead that the retired BellSouth employee is a dedicated volunteer at his church and has been on mission trips to Panama and other Latin American countries.

Chris Anderson, pastor of Killian Hill Baptist Church in Lilburn, called Sailors “a good man who devoted his life to serving others, and his reputation in our community has been unblemished for over 40 years.”

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/man-69-...rong-ho/nT8xp/

A model citizen, just the kind of guy whose rights the 2d Amendment enshrines.

Lowpro · 29th January 2013, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Kilaak Kommander

The guy was outnumbered, so clearly he needed to take the first shot.

On a serious note, though, we don't know enough about Sailors to make any judgments. Did he have any sort of mental problems or history of violence that would make him a high risk gun owner, let alone a legal one?

And how would this have been prevented? Let's say he was a legal, law-abiding gun owner who was overreacting to paranoid rhetoric. How do you regulate paranoid rhetoric? How do identify who will overreact to it? How do you even define what it is? Home invasion does occur. Homeowners are injured and killed in the process, albeit rarely. What is a sensible level of warning, and an appropriate level of caution?

That probably warrants a discussion on self defense and those laws vary from state to state. If more gun owners were well versed in what self defense means then in almost all cases of actual self defense a gun is not required unless you cannot run and you are in a situation which warrants the use of a gun (also something any gun owner interested in owning a gun for the purpose of self defense should know and understand). But I have my suspicion that the intricacies of self defense seldom meet with whether a gun owner should own a gun for self defense. I perceive that there's a push from the NRA to say that the only self defense is a good offense...with a gun.

fuelair · 29th January 2013, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

Well, they were in his driveway, and they looked ~~brown~~ suspicious. So he feared they were there to hurt them.

Makes perfect sense.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archive....php?ref=fpblg

These harmless, inanimate objects sure do pack a wallop, though.

The shooter was, in no way, a responsible gun owner - except he was responsible for what looks clearly to me to be murder. Which he has been responsibly arrested and charged for IIRC. Stand your ground (were it a state with that) means just that. It does not give you anything resembling the right to run out at such as this thing did and start blazing away - not even if, as happened, a person rolls down the window (unless a gun protrudes from same and is pointed at you).

ETA: Did not pay attention to where - Texas mileage and that of portions of Arizona may vary.

fuelair · 29th January 2013, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

The NRA deserve the blame for this sort of thing. Thier ramping up the paranioa to the point where people start shooting each other for simply walking or driving onto their properties is completely crazy, but the whole NRA led gun industry wants USAers scared out of their tightie whites of each other so they'll all start packing 100 guns and a million rounds of ammo for when the gang bangers come to rape and murder them.

Skip all your above, there have always been over the top "Get off my lawn you damn kids!!"ers. Those never required help from the NRA and, frankly, don't now.

29th January 2013, 06:56 PM	#1
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 9,692	Another Responsible Gun Owner Stands His Ground Well, they were in his driveway, and they looked ~~brown~~ suspicious. So he feared they were there to hurt them. Makes perfect sense. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archive....php?ref=fpblg Quote: Rodrigo Diaz, 22, was driving around with his girlfriend and two friends when he pulled into a driveway, thinking they had arrived at another friend’s house, his brother says. But instead he pulled into the driveway of Phillip Sailors, 69, who thought his home was being robbed, his lawyer says. Sailors then shot Diaz, according to the police report, citing what Sailors told officers at the scene. Diaz later died after surgery. “Basically, what happened is they were looking for one of my brother’s girlfriend’s friends,” says his brother David E. Diaz-Valencia, 23. “The guy came outside and my brother’s girlfriend said he was screaming, ‘Get off my property!’ and he shot into the air. My brother was backing out fast because he was scared and he rolled down the window to say he was sorry and he was not doing anything wrong. Then the guy shot him in his head.” These harmless, inanimate objects sure do pack a wallop, though.

29th January 2013, 07:09 PM	#2
devnull Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 6,056	yeh, guns for home defense is just stupid. Use a baseball bat like I do, and leave the gun in the safe, like I do.
	__________________ _{"Here we go again.... semantic and syntactic chicanery and sophistic sleight of tongue and pen.... the bedazzling magic of appearing to be saying something when in fact all that is happening is diverting attention from the attempts at shoving god through the trapdoor of illogic and wishful thinking." - Leumas}

29th January 2013, 07:09 PM	#3
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 17,009	The NRA deserve the blame for this sort of thing. Thier ramping up the paranioa to the point where people start shooting each other for simply walking or driving onto their properties is completely crazy, but the whole NRA led gun industry wants USAers scared out of their tightie whites of each other so they'll all start packing 100 guns and a million rounds of ammo for when the gang bangers come to rape and murder them.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page.

29th January 2013, 07:15 PM	#4
triforcharity Banned Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 13,961	I'll agree with the very BASIC premise of this thread, though not the hyperbole and idiotic statements, just like we've seen in may other threads. The guy doing the shooting, was absolutely wrong. No reasonable fear, victim was driving away, and he shot anyway. Murder. Plain and simple. Agreed there. The rest? Ignored.
triforcharity Banned Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 13,961

29th January 2013, 07:22 PM	#5
sir drinks-a-lot Illuminator Join Date: May 2004 Location: Cole Valley, CA Posts: 3,213	Originally Posted by Unabogie Well, they were in his driveway, and they looked ~~brown~~ suspicious. Other than showing your racism fetish, what is your point?
	__________________ I drink to the general joy o' th' whole table. --William Shakespeare

29th January 2013, 07:29 PM	#6
triforcharity Banned Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 13,961	And of course, leaving this out. "He’s now in the county jail charged with murder." Imagine that. Una, why did you leave this part out? Oh, and not to mention the broad brush.....
triforcharity Banned Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 13,961

29th January 2013, 07:33 PM	#7
sir drinks-a-lot Illuminator Join Date: May 2004 Location: Cole Valley, CA Posts: 3,213	Originally Posted by triforcharity And of course, leaving this out. "He’s now in the county jail charged with murder." Imagine that. Una, why did you leave this part out? He's cherry-picking like the pseudo skeptic he is...
	__________________ I drink to the general joy o' th' whole table. --William Shakespeare

29th January 2013, 07:35 PM	#8
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 9,692	Originally Posted by triforcharity And of course, leaving this out. "He’s now in the county jail charged with murder." Imagine that. Una, why did you leave this part out? Oh, and not to mention the broad brush..... I didn't leave anything out, since I linked to the source. You should be aware that for some of us, the fact that the murderer was charged doesn't mitigate the fact that guns cost an innocent kid his life. So what if the idiot is charged? You think his family gives a **** about that?

29th January 2013, 07:49 PM	#9
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 59,856	Originally Posted by Unabogie Well, they were in his driveway, and they looked ~~brown~~ suspicious. He looks "brown" to you? Why do you have to add a racial component to it? Wasn't juicy enough as it was?

29th January 2013, 08:02 PM	#10
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,628	11,078 people died from gun related homocide last year, were you making posts about every single one of them too? Or did you wait until you hitched a ride on the trendy train on a one way ticket to Smugtown first?
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,628

29th January 2013, 08:08 PM	#11
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 17,009	Originally Posted by triforcharity And of course, leaving this out. "He’s now in the county jail charged with murder." Imagine that. Una, why did you leave this part out? Oh, and not to mention the broad brush..... I don't think that the point was that he was wrong and should be charged with murder, a bind man and his dog would see that. The point is that He clearly didn't believe that what he was doing was wrong and was murder, and you can bet that his defence attorney will argue exactly that in court.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page.

29th January 2013, 08:09 PM	#12
applecorped Rotten to the Core Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 18,127	If the shooter was a Republican and the victim a gay, immigrant Liberal we could a tri-fecta of righteous indignation. Yay!
	__________________ All You Need Is Love.

29th January 2013, 08:10 PM	#13
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 17,009	Originally Posted by WildCat He looks "brown" to you? Why do you have to add a racial component to it? Wasn't juicy enough as it was? Seriously. Do you think that if a bunch of white kids had driven into the guy's driveway he'd still have come out waving a gun and shooting?
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page.

29th January 2013, 08:13 PM	#14
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 37,535	Originally Posted by StankApe 11,078 people died from gun related homocide last year, were you making posts about every single one of them too? Or did you wait until you hitched a ride on the trendy train on a one way ticket to Smugtown first? Don't most of them deserve a post? Remember we are talking human beings here. A Venn diagram that includes YOU.
	__________________ For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?

29th January 2013, 08:18 PM	#15
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,628	That's not the point. If we were discussing something else, nobody would be allowed to post anecdotes and scream indignation about them as evidence for an agenda. and the fact remains that gun violence down almost half from the high point of the mid 90's, but media coverage of gun violence is wayyy up (especially lately) It doesn't improve the situation to try and appeal to emotions ya know.
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,628

29th January 2013, 08:19 PM	#16
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 17,009	Originally Posted by StankApe 11,078 people died from gun related homocide last year, were you making posts about every single one of them too? Or did you wait until you hitched a ride on the trendy train on a one way ticket to Smugtown first? I think this one is actually more of interest because it directly relates to the hysteria that groups like the NRA have been creating. OMG you need guns to protect again the horrid gangs breaking in and shooting you. Now a man sees a bunch of minorities drive into his driveway and the first thing he thinks, dispite the real odds of it occuring, is that they are gang bangers coming to invade his hiome and kill him. That paranoia, created by the likes of the NRA, then leads to him charging out guns blazing and killing a totally innocent person. It's almost the perfect example of how the NRA are making things worse rather than better.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page.

29th January 2013, 08:21 PM	#17
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 59,856	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Seriously. Do you think that if a bunch of white kids had driven into the guy's driveway he'd still have come out waving a gun and shooting? You could tell the kid was Colombian by looking at him, or even Hispanic? And what do you know about the race of the other kids in the car? It's not even mentioned. It may well have been a "bunch of white kids". eta: I see several of the quoted passengers have Hispanic names, but there's no indication that Sailor knew the race of the people in the car. Kind of hard to determine that at night when the windows are rolled up.
	Last edited by WildCat; 29th January 2013 at 08:25 PM.

29th January 2013, 08:22 PM	#18
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,628	That's an awful big assumption. How can you make the leap from A: the event to B: the NRA? (who I have no love for btw). Unless you discover later he was a faithful follower and reader of their material... For all we know, he's just a damn fool and hates Mexicans or something. Or had some other issue going on that he mistook this car for.
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,628

29th January 2013, 08:31 PM	#19
triforcharity Banned Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 13,961	Originally Posted by Unabogie I didn't leave anything out, since I linked to the source. You should be aware that for some of us, the fact that the murderer was charged doesn't mitigate the fact that guns cost an innocent kid his life. So what if the idiot is charged? You think his family gives a ** about that? No, it doesn't, you're right. However, the fact that he is being charged, and will almost certainly spend the rest of his life in prison, is of some comfort to the family. But, the reason for posting this story, is simply to inflame others. It serves no other purpose. None. He didn't stand his ground, as he was acting outside of the law. He committed murder. Plain and simple. People from all walks of life, do dumb **. To attempt to label all people into one group (which is what I believe you're trying to do) is asinine. But, at least your posts are consistently asinine. Props there.
triforcharity Banned Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 13,961

29th January 2013, 08:34 PM	#20
triforcharity Banned Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 13,961	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf I don't think that the point was that he was wrong and should be charged with murder, a bind man and his dog would see that. The point is that He clearly didn't believe that what he was doing was wrong and was murder, and you can bet that his defence attorney will argue exactly that in court. Ok......and this is different from many many many other cases, how? And I can almost guarantee if this goes to trial, he'll be found guilty.
triforcharity Banned Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 13,961

29th January 2013, 08:35 PM	#21
triforcharity Banned Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 13,961	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Seriously. Do you think that if a bunch of white kids had driven into the guy's driveway he'd still have come out waving a gun and shooting? Possibly, but since nobody is psychic as far as I am aware, we'll never know.
triforcharity Banned Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 13,961

29th January 2013, 08:35 PM	#22
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 17,779	Originally Posted by StankApe It doesn't improve the situation to try and appeal to emotions ya know. I suppose it depends on what you mean by "improve the situation".

29th January 2013, 08:37 PM	#23
Xulld Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,154	I dont know about anyone else, but I would love to see threads that are clearly baiting, with sarcastic titles be deleted. "Another Responsible Gun Owner Stands His Ground" From all reports this man was not responsible and does not represent me or any other gun owner. This thread is nothing more than a way to lash out against other forum members.
Xulld Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,154	__________________ "Natural justice is a symbol or expression of usefullness, to prevent one person from harming or being harmed by another."-Epicurus Freedom of Speech is a right recognized in the First Amendment. Freedom from consequence is nowhere to be found. -Bstrong

29th January 2013, 08:38 PM	#24
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 17,779	Originally Posted by triforcharity However, the fact that he is being charged, and will almost certainly spend the rest of his life in prison, is of some comfort to the family. I doubt it.

29th January 2013, 08:40 PM	#25
triforcharity Banned Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 13,961	Originally Posted by BenBurch Don't most of them deserve a post? No. They don't. Unless there's something specific you want to discuss, do it. This asinine "oh, someone got shot" "someone died" let's make a new ********* thread game, is ********* stupid. I'll just start posting a link to DGU's that are legit. In fact, here's one. http://www.guns.com/2013/01/29/new-y...rs-with-ar-15/
triforcharity Banned Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 13,961

29th January 2013, 08:41 PM	#26
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 17,779	Originally Posted by Xulld From all reports this man was not responsible and does not represent me...... You are probably correct, but I'm confident Mr. Sailors would have said exactly the same thing yesterday, reading about some other similar incident. Quote: or any other gun owner. Now that's just silly.

29th January 2013, 08:46 PM	#27
triforcharity Banned Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 13,961	Originally Posted by Meadmaker I doubt it. Really? So all the times that I've seen parents, clearly distraught about an act of violence committed against their family, asking for the person to turn themselves in, or to call if you know something, etc. etc. etc. are doing it for fun? You don't think that justice is not a comfort, even a small one? Why?
triforcharity Banned Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 13,961

29th January 2013, 09:00 PM	#28
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 17,779	Originally Posted by triforcharity Really? So all the times that I've seen parents, clearly distraught about an act of violence committed against their family, asking for the person to turn themselves in, or to call if you know something, etc. etc. etc. are doing it for fun? You don't think that justice is not a comfort, even a small one? Why? In this case, no. If they are normal, they will want to see the law applied, and the man go to jail, but most people would find no comfort in it at all. They would see one life (their son's) lost, and another one destroyed. Mr. Sailors deserves the punishment he will receive, and the family of Mr. Diaz will almost certainly agree with that, but that punishment itself will be a tragedy. Sailors didn't set out to do harm. He was afraid. A frightened little man scared out of his wits who let the fear take over him, and in so doing ended one life, and destroyed his own. When next Thanksgiving rolls around, the son's chair at the table will be missing at the Diaz household, and grandpa's chair will be empty at the Sailors family. I doubt the Diaz family will see anything comforting about it.

29th January 2013, 09:11 PM	#29
DavidJames Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Front Range, CO Posts: 10,493	From what I know now, Mr. Sailors is not much different than many of the gun lovers on this forum. I can't help but wonder if prior to today, if Mr. Sailors could have spoken any of the words of gun lovers posting in this thread. Repeat after me (and Mr. Sailors)....those crazy things gun haters say might happen to us law abiding citizens, will never happen to me.
	__________________ For 15 years I never put anyone on ignore. I felt it important to see everyone's view point. Finally I realized the value of some views can be measured in negative terms and were personally destructive.

29th January 2013, 09:15 PM	#30
Lowpro Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 5,399	He's a guy who owned a gun legally (probably) and probably for the purposes of self defense. And now he will be a criminal who can no longer own a gun. The system works. Instead of ending up as one statistic he ended up as another. Actually they swapped statistics come to think of it... A responsible gun owner doesn't have the right to leave his house and start a fight with his gun. If he thought he was being robbed he should have called the police and kept himself safe. Leaving that house was not only unsafe it's not even a practical application of defense (Unless by being in the house you are less safe say they're setting it on fire...) by which having his gun at the ready should be called for. This man is just a murderer. He was not a responsible gun owner when he walked out of his door and neither was he a responsible citizen. He was a criminal the moment he walked out that door. But at least now AFTER the fact we can make sure he doesn't have a gun right?
Lowpro Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 5,399	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers Last edited by Lowpro; 29th January 2013 at 09:20 PM.

29th January 2013, 09:22 PM	#31
ben m Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 6,387	Originally Posted by triforcharity The guy doing the shooting, was absolutely wrong. No reasonable fear, victim was driving away, and he shot anyway. Stupid shootings of retreating innocents are what you expect when you give guns to people with no training. Reasonable fear vs. unreasonable fear? Not obvious, not to a scared person full of adrenaline. Police and armed forces are taught rules of engagement, because if they weren't this sort of thing would happen. So, oh, look: the NRA insists that anyone can buy a gun. The NRA decides that mandatory training would violate your 2nd Amendment rights. The NRA delivers its stream of rhetoric about armed bad guys poised to invade your home. Millions of scared, untrained amateurs buy guns and daydream about bad guys. Of course this leads to misjudgements. Misjudgements are practically built in to the system. Anyway, let's compare what happens when an unreasonable, wrong home-invasion terror pops into the head of a non-gun-owner: He yells some racist garbage from his front porch. He throws a rock at the retreating car and dents it. He bars the door and calls 911. Unreasonable? Yes. Wrong? Yes. Number of dead people? Zero.
ben m Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 6,387	Last edited by ben m; 29th January 2013 at 09:29 PM.

29th January 2013, 09:38 PM	#32
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 41,805	You give guns to people terrified of crimes they are unlikely to experience, what do you expect? Three times in the past few months people have mistakenly driven up my drive. Not only did I refrain from shooting them, I helped them find where they were going.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

29th January 2013, 10:02 PM	#33
Charlie Wilkes Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,177	Originally Posted by Unabogie Well, they were in his driveway, and they looked ~~brown~~ suspicious. So he feared they were there to hurt them. Makes perfect sense. http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archive....php?ref=fpblg These harmless, inanimate objects sure do pack a wallop, though. "Puglise [lawyer for Sailors, the shooter] said the Sailors family is grief-stricken and is lifting the family of Diaz up in prayer." http://www.ajc.com/news/news/man-69-...rong-ho/nT8xp/ Why is the shooter's family grief-stricken? They didn't even know the guy.

29th January 2013, 10:04 PM	#34
Kevin_Lowe Guest Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,221	Originally Posted by Xulld I dont know about anyone else, but I would love to see threads that are clearly baiting, with sarcastic titles be deleted. "Another Responsible Gun Owner Stands His Ground" From all reports this man was not responsible and does not represent me or any other gun owner. This thread is nothing more than a way to lash out against other forum members. I took it as an ironic reference to the straw man of the "responsible gun owner" who is a major part of pro-gun rhetoric. The reality, of course, is that those rationally in favour of gun control are worried about the irresponsible, the poorly trained, the irrational, the mentally ill and all the other people who for one reason or another will have access to a gun and will use it in ways which lead predictably to bad outcomes. In particular, bad outcomes which arise predictably and frequently enough to outweigh the good outcomes of weakly-controlled gun ownership. The case is an excellent example of why a culture of fear and gun-ownership leads to bad outcomes.
Kevin_Lowe Guest Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,221

29th January 2013, 10:14 PM	#35
Kilaak Kommander Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 343	The guy was outnumbered, so clearly he needed to take the first shot. On a serious note, though, we don't know enough about Sailors to make any judgments. Did he have any sort of mental problems or history of violence that would make him a high risk gun owner, let alone a legal one? And how would this have been prevented? Let's say he was a legal, law-abiding gun owner who was overreacting to paranoid rhetoric. How do you regulate paranoid rhetoric? How do identify who will overreact to it? How do you even define what it is? Home invasion does occur. Homeowners are injured and killed in the process, albeit rarely. What is a sensible level of warning, and an appropriate level of caution?