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#81 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#82 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets
If a scientist or a writer said something like you're saying in this quote, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Translations by definition aren't 100% word-for-word accurate, so getting the message right is the important thing. But inerrantists tend to be the folks that demand that the Bible had pi 100% completely correct, that 7 days means 168 hours, that Noah put ALL the animals on the ark, etc. This is essentially the argument about deep time all over again. Inerrantists demand that NOTHING in the Bible be wrong, in ANY sense (except that passage, and this one, and those over there--you know, those that, if we assume they're metaphorical will agree with my beleifs). Rational people already accept that much of the Bible is poetic in nature in many places. In other words, most followers of Christ won't have a problem with your argument, but they aren't the ones saying that the Bible has never been altered anyway. |
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#83 |
Mafia Penguin
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The change in perception of what is a book may also have been precipitated by the change in technology. Both the ancient Jews and the ancient Graeco-Roman world used the scroll as information storage medium. Between the 1st and 4th Century AD the scroll was gradually replaced by the codex. In the 7th Century, Isidore of Seville explains it as follows:
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Interestingly, it seems that Christians were at the forefront of replacing the scroll by the codex. This unpublished paper explores that point. The reason is not clear; it might be to distinguish them from Jews who held to the scroll-format. But it may very well be that the change of format gave rise to the question and resolution of which books were Biblical canon. |
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Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa" "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf |
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#84 |
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Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa" "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf |
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#85 |
Thinker
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Sorry my use of the word "definitive" was not clear. I wanted to say that in my opinion, no canon could have ever been set before the Vulgate, and not that the Vulgate set it. It is Jerome who coined the word apocrypha, and I take it as a hint that this issue was still unclear then.
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#86 |
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From the first link:
This historical synod at Rome gained additional importance long afterwards. According to a document appended to some manuscripts of the so-called Decretum Gelasianum or "Gelasian Decretal" and given separately in others, at this council the authority of the Old and New Testament canon would have been affirmed in a decretal, sometimes referred to as the damasine list. The document was first connected to this council of Rome in 1794, when Fr. Faustino Arevalo (1747–1824), the editor of Coelius Sedulius, expressed his theory that the first three of the five chapters of the Decretum were really the decrees of a Roman council held a century earlier than Gelasius, under Damasus, in 382. Arevalo's conclusions were widely accepted until the early 20th century, but further studies led by Ernst von Dobschütz showed this decretal to be a forgery, probably from a scholar of the 6th century.[1] |
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#87 |
Thinker
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Err, I feel really uneasy as I am the one who modified the article. To be fair I must provide you with the link in the state ddt linked to :
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...ldid=534962121 The article had only one source that contradicted what I presumed to be mere apologetics. This one : http://www.tertullian.org/articles/b...gelasianum.htm I'm sorry for that ^^ |
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"Karl Marx was right, socialism works, it is just that he had the wrong species" − E. O. Wilson |
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#88 |
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The books that Jerome coined as apocrypha (and the RC church now calls deuterocanonical) are essentially those that are in the Septuagint but not in the Masoretic Text, isn't it?
How much support did Jerome have for his position? Eventually, he did translate those apocrypha, on orders of the Pope. And the Eastern churches even hold the Septuagint to be the official original text, so it seems he was in a clear minority position. |
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Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa" "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf |
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#89 |
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Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa" "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf |
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#90 |
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#91 |
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#92 |
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If you're really curious, I'd recommend talking to a priest, or someone studying late Romen Empire/Lower Middle Ages history at a university. If you talk to a priest, I'd recommend looking for a Jesuit. Remember, this isn't a question of theology, but of archaeology--denomination isn't all that important, and the Jesuits have always impressed me as being a bit more well-read outside of theological literature than other orders of priests.
As far as recommendations, there have been a number of them in this thread, posted by people more knowledgeable on the topic than me. Start there.
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#93 |
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This is assuming the Bible has a consistent message which it doesn't. As the Skeptic's Annotated Bible there are serious problems with the Bible's message even in the New Testament (it is even worse in the Old Testament.)
Biblical Family Values are totally horrid even by the standards of Ancient Rome. The Contradictions in the Bible section includes messages as well. The Bible can't make up its mind regarding Adultery (if it even is a sin or if it should be punished), if anyone will go to Hell, the way to achieve salvation (good works, believing Jesus, or both), and I could go on. If the message in modern Bibles is a cluster-FUBAR then what do the Dead Sea scrolls do for you? |
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#94 |
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Never mind what should be or what might be or what ought to be. It's what's things are that's important" Granny Weatherwax |
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#95 |
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#96 |
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#97 |
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The dedication page is also missing, but is thought to be something like this:
"This book is for my darling Mary, who has put up with me writing this novel for 10 hours a day without protest. I would also like to thank my editor, Pontius Pilot, for his help with the local geography and laws of the Roman Empire. All characters contained in this work are purely fictitious and any resemblance to anyone, alive or dead, is purely coincidental." ![]() |
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#98 |
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#99 |
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Dear eir,
The latter might not be directly concerned, but they might ask questions about their own translations. How would discovering major errors in one's primary religious text not affect one? "Blessed are the cheesemakers" and all that. Fortunately to my understanding the Bible is consistent on most points across most translations, so even if the KJV were found to have major errors it wouldn't collapse Christendom. Cpl Ferro |
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#100 |
Mormon Atheist
Join Date: Dec 2001
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It's a book of fables and fairy tails with demons, witches, sorcery, talking snakes, talking donkey, walking on water, water into wine, etc., etc. If Christians can believe in a book that isn't much more than a Harry Potter book, then there is nothing about the book that could possibly collapse Christendom.
It doesn't have to make sense. It doesn't have to be consistent. It just needs people to have faith that it is true. Religious faith and reason are two very different things. Look, there are highly educated and very intelligent people that believe in it when it is full of erroneous information like people with mental disorders having demons. We now know that there is no firmament. We have no evidence for the Exodus. We've no evidence that there was a resurrection other than thousand year old 3rd party hearsay evidence, yet people who are otherwise objective believe in it. Honestly it makes no difference what the book says. It could have been the Bhagavad Gita. |
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#101 |
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Dear RandFan,
Perhaps you're right about true believers believing in anything written. What I meant was, if different Bibles say different things, it would be hard to say there was any coherent entity called Christendom or Christianity, wouldn't there? Every schismatic sect already believes a different interpretation of the book, but we still all call them Christian, in a manner of speaking. If their books were different, we would have a hard time calling them all by that name, wouldn't we? Cpl Ferro |
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#102 |
Mormon Atheist
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No, I do not at all think so. All that is needed is to believe in Jesus Christ. BTW: We do have a hard time. Many if not most Christians do not consider the many Christian cults Christian. They don't accept Mormonism or Jehovah's Witnesses or 7th day Adventists. And it should be noted that your argument is basically an ad populum fallacy. I don't accept your premise but even if I did it would not change my opinion.
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#103 |
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Never mind what should be or what might be or what ought to be. It's what's things are that's important" Granny Weatherwax |
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#104 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#105 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Originally Posted by CplFerro
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Originally Posted by Craig B
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#106 |
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But then, there is no coherent entity called Christendom. They all believe in Jesus Christ, but differ as to his nature. Most Christian denominations adhere to the trinitarian view, but some don't, such as the Mormons and the JW's. Within the trinitarian branch, most subscribe to the Chalcedonian creed about the two natures of Christ, but then again, the Armenian Church and the Coptic Church don't. The RCC subscribes to the dogma that Christ is present during the Eucharist (transsubstantiation), while Calvinist churches see Communion as a purely symbolic affair. Et cetera.
And while the above describes the official teachings of those churches, most of their flock hardly have a clue about such notions. |
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Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa" "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf |
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#107 |
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#108 |
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Dear RandFan,
I'm not appealing to the passions of the masses in order to make a point, so I fail to see how I am arguing ad populum. That there is, or at least recently was, a large body of people organised into countries that collectively was called "Christendom" is a fact, whatever signficance we make of it. As to the acceptance of all cults, well it depends on whether they accept the four basic mysteries of Christianity, namely the Trinity, the Theodicy, the Incarnation, and the Atonement. If there is another key mystery I would avidly like to know it. The Mormons deny the Trinity, the JW's deny the Trinity and the Incarnation, and the 7DA's appear to be on the level. These are hardly trivial details of Christianity to be removing, more like vital organs without which the entity dies. Cpl Ferro |
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#109 |
Mormon Atheist
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They are not trivial only because those who disagreed where ostracized or killed. Now you are appealing to tradition. The trinity is not in the Bible BTW and was very controversial prior to the Roman consolidation of religions. Check out the Gnostics. They were around from the beginning and they did not believe in the trinity.
And yes, you are making an ad populum argument. What many people believe does not make it true. Geocentrism was once believed true. Just because most Christians believed that it was true didn't make it true. There is no such thing as a "true" Christian. There never was. "To assert that the Earth revolves around the Sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin." ~ Cardinal Bellarmine, at the trial of Galileo in 1615. Bellarmine was right by the way. The Earth does revolve around the Sun and Jesus was not born of a virgin. |
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#110 |
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#111 |
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#112 |
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Dear RandFan,
But, I'm not sure what you think I'm trying to do. I'm not saying Christianity is true because many people believe in Christ. Nor am I saying Christianity is true because it has a long tradition. Nor am I judging who is a true Christian or not; a job for God, if anyone. I am saying that the fabric of Christianity is woven of words and the chief words are those organised into the varying versions of the Bible. The more the common tradition were violated by revelations of gross errors in translation, the weaker the fabric becomes. Surely it is not beyond anyone's apprehension in such an estimable place as this to imagine that Christianity has a cohesion to it that goes beyond mere lip service to a figure known as Jesus Christ. Do you understand what I'm saying? Cpl Ferro |
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#113 |
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#114 |
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Dear Craig B,
It's only a seriously problem if the translators and copyists were, to a man, expected to be influenced by the Holy Spirit unto infallibility. I'm not convinced they were. Without such, we're left with a potentially real message that is prone to mistranslation and typographical errors. I suppose that the ensuring of faithfulness would fall to...a church, say?--which may well be under the influence of the aforementioned Spirit. Cpl Ferro |
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#115 |
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Dear Dinwar,
Thank you for helping me clarify my understanding. I meant that for some people the KJV is their primary religious text. Revelations of unfaithfulness would be, if taken seriously by said, traumatic. Your second point is wonderful. Third, no, I don’t accept that the Bible in its present form is significantly different from whatever the originals was. This understanding bases on the guess that the original composers composed what amounts to “the real thing” and that this “real thing” is what has descended virtually intact down to today. Fourth, yes, that is a pickle. Cpl Ferro |
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#116 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Originally Posted by CplFerro
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Unfortunately for your position, a great deal of information has been presented in this thread that disproves it. Several people have pointed out that there are multiple Biblical traditions. Sure, the fact that there are multiple versions doesn't prove that none of them are divinely inspired, but it DOES tend to indicate that the books, even if they were divinely inspried, were subject to very human manipulations.
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That's just the Church of the Middle Ages. The Church while it was taking over the Roman Empire would be even worse. The Church fighting the Reformation is going to have a lot of other problems. |
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#117 |
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#118 |
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#119 |
Warning: May Contain Nuts
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See, it isn’t Hitler you’ve gotta hate; that’s not who you’ve gotta watch out for. The Hitlers of the world are very rare. We have to watch out for the people who did it for him, without any questions asked. Normal people who didn’t want to lose their jobs. Those are the people you have to watch out for, and the world’s always been full of them. - Lemmy |
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#120 |
Penultimate Amazing
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