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Tags Oscar Pistorius , shooting incidents

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Old 13th February 2013, 11:44 PM   #1
figarot
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Oscar Pistorius shoots girlfriend

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Ne...ports-20130214

She is dead at the scene. Local news on the radio suggest she wanted to surprise him for Valentine's Day. He thought she was an intruder. Shot her in the head and arm. Tragic. If only he could have made out that it's her instead of shooting...
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Old 14th February 2013, 12:00 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by figarot View Post
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Ne...ports-20130214

She is dead at the scene. Local news on the radio suggest she wanted to surprise him for Valentine's Day. He thought she was an intruder. Shot her in the head and arm. Tragic. If only he could have made out that it's her instead of shooting...
If only she'd had a gun too then... oh forget it, this is too depressing.
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Old 14th February 2013, 12:49 AM   #3
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A tragic accident, or murder. The US doesn't have a monopoly on mindless gun deaths.
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Old 14th February 2013, 01:15 AM   #4
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Awful, awful, awful.......

South Africa has a similar gun culture to America, and just about the highest murder rate in the world. These tragedies are no surprise. Last year a famous rugby player shot his daughter dead as she drove out of his driveway, thinking that it was someone stealing his car.

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Old 14th February 2013, 02:11 AM   #5
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*Bad taste joke removed*
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Old 14th February 2013, 02:15 AM   #6
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That's terribly witty, but I'm not sure I appreciate it right now.

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Old 14th February 2013, 02:36 AM   #7
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I wonder how the firearms enthusiasts will spin this one?
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Old 14th February 2013, 02:40 AM   #8
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Well, this one is actually of more than remote interest, partly because it features Pistorius and partly because it's SA which seems to have an extreme law and order problem. Every South African I have spoken to (maybe 2 or 3) cites it as a major reason for not living there any more.
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Old 14th February 2013, 02:58 AM   #9
The Don
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Well, this one is actually of more than remote interest, partly because it features Pistorius and partly because it's SA which seems to have an extreme law and order problem. Every South African I have spoken to (maybe 2 or 3) cites it as a major reason for not living there any more.
Then again the South Africans who have left are a self-selecting group (who presumably have left for a good reason). That's not to say that South Africa is not a dangerous place and I certainly cannot speak from a position of authority (having only spent a month there six years ago) but people who have left a country may not be the most representative bunch (if you look at Mrs Don's American Women Abroad group you's assume that all U.S. women are very liberal ,upper middle class, middle aged and white).

If it does turn out to be an accidental shooting, this isn't the first time that a white South African sports personality has killed a loved one while protecting their home:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004...ica.rugbyunion

Quote:
A former Springbok rugby player was charged with murder yesterday after he mistook his daughter for a car thief and shot her dead in the family's driveway.
I guess this once again illustrates the dangers of poorly trained members of the public using guns for home defence. These dangers need to be assessed against the benefits of poorly trained members of the public using guns for home defence.

Personally I feel that the dangers outweigh the benefits but as many, many threads show, it's very difficult to get objective statistics.
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Old 14th February 2013, 03:05 AM   #10
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How dreadfully sad.
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Old 14th February 2013, 03:10 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Then again the South Africans who have left are a self-selecting group (who presumably have left for a good reason). That's not to say that South Africa is not a dangerous place and I certainly cannot speak from a position of authority (having only spent a month there six years ago) but people who have left a country may not be the most representative bunch (if you look at Mrs Don's American Women Abroad group you's assume that all U.S. women are very liberal ,upper middle class, middle aged and white).

If it does turn out to be an accidental shooting, this isn't the first time that a white South African sports personality has killed a loved one while protecting their home:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004...ica.rugbyunion



I guess this once again illustrates the dangers of poorly trained members of the public using guns for home defence. These dangers need to be assessed against the benefits of poorly trained members of the public using guns for home defence.

Personally I feel that the dangers outweigh the benefits but as many, many threads show, it's very difficult to get objective statistics.
I take your self-selecting group point but I do believe, from newspapers and such as well as anecdotes, that SA has a major crime problem.
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Old 14th February 2013, 03:12 AM   #12
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All in all I've spent over 3 decades in South Africa. Since the mid-90s crime has risen greatly. We are all now affected by crime in some way. Almost everybody knows somebody who has at least been carjacked. Too many know of somebody who has been murdered in the past few years.

A murder case has been opened in the shooting of Reeva Steenkamp. I believe, due to the high crime rate, it's almost a given Oscar's reaction of shooting before he could be sure it was an intruder will be seen as normal here, as wrong and tragic as her death is.
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Old 14th February 2013, 03:14 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by figarot View Post
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Ne...ports-20130214

She is dead at the scene. Local news on the radio suggest she wanted to surprise him for Valentine's Day. He thought she was an intruder. Shot her in the head and arm. Tragic. If only he could have made out that it's her instead of shooting...
Sounds like she succeeded
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Old 14th February 2013, 03:20 AM   #14
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I've never been in SA, only talked to a few people, but it seems to me that SA really is the sort of society the US gun nuts think they live in. The sort of place where the odds of being violently attacked are genuinely disturbingly high, and where carrying a gun is arguably in the category of a sensible precaution.

Or is the USA really like that too?

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Old 14th February 2013, 03:33 AM   #15
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Here is a link to a study of violent crime in South Africa.

I was born in Cape Town and have lived here for almost 6 decades.

If you know which areas to avoid you will be quite safe.

http://www.info.gov.za/issues/crime/violent_crime.pdf

I posted this link in another thread about ethnic minorities and violent crime and it killed the thread instantly.

Hope it doesn't happen with this thread.
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Last edited by Skwinty; 14th February 2013 at 03:48 AM.
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Old 14th February 2013, 03:42 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Skwinty View Post
I posted this link in another thread about etnic minorities and violent crime and it killed the thread instantly.

Hope it doesn't happen with this thread.
Maybe they're still reading it
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Old 14th February 2013, 03:57 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post

Or is the USA really like that too?

Rolfe.
I have been to the states (California & Nevada & Arizona) regularly (2 to 3 times a year for extended periods) over the last ten years and have never experienced or seen any gun crime (touch wood).

I would comment though that the behaviour of the police in the US can be quite aggressive, possibly because of their need to be prepared for violent attack.

One incident springs to mind from a few years back when we witnessed a bad RTA in Las Vegas. Motorcyclist was taken out by a motorist and, apart from his friend and the car driver, we were first on the scene and called the police etc. His friend was distraught thinking his mate had been killed (he hadn't, but was in a bad way). When the police arrived, instead of trying to calm him down they were startlingly aggressive towards him, lots of shouting, one arm outstretched to keep him back and other hand on holstered weapon.

/anecdote
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Old 14th February 2013, 04:01 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I've never been in SA, only talked to a few people, but it seems to me that SA really is the sort of society the US gun nuts think they live in. The sort of place where the odds of being violently attacked are genuinely disturbingly high, and where carrying a gun is arguably in the category of a sensible precaution.

Or is the USA really like that too?

Rolfe.
Ummm... how do I say this? The US is big. Some places are violent. Some are not. Depends where you go. Hope that helps.
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Old 14th February 2013, 04:02 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by figarot View Post
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Ne...ports-20130214

She is dead at the scene. Local news on the radio suggest she wanted to surprise him for Valentine's Day. He thought she was an intruder. Shot her in the head and arm. Tragic. If only he could have made out that it's her instead of shooting...
His legal defense is going to cost him an arm and a leg.
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Old 14th February 2013, 04:04 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by UNLoVedRebel View Post
His legal defense is going to cost him an arm and a leg.
Ouch!
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Old 14th February 2013, 04:04 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
I take your self-selecting group point but I do believe, from newspapers and such as well as anecdotes, that SA has a major crime problem.
South Africa does have a crime problem (which appears to be getting somewhat better recently).

All-in-all this is just a sad situation.

South Africans, especially Afrikaaners, are quite similar in terms of their attitude to Americans (in general of course). One regularly hears a firsthand account of someone chasing of a suspected burglar with a firearm, and hunting is still quite a big deal for those that can afford it.

This kind of gun culture, combined with improper firearms training and a distrust of the police, is what leads to these regrettable accidents in my opinion.
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Old 14th February 2013, 04:05 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by DrDave View Post
Sounds like she succeeded
On this Valentine's day, instead of an arrow through her heart, she got a bullet through her head.
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Old 14th February 2013, 04:21 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by UNLoVedRebel View Post
On this Valentine's day, instead of an arrow through her heart, she got a bullet through her head.
Yup, but I bet he's not the last legless guy who'll shoot his load on his girlfriend's face this Valentine's Day.
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Old 14th February 2013, 04:27 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I've never been in SA, only talked to a few people, but it seems to me that SA really is the sort of society the US gun nuts think they live in. The sort of place where the odds of being violently attacked are genuinely disturbingly high, and where carrying a gun is arguably in the category of a sensible precaution.

Or is the USA really like that too?

Rolfe.
In terms of trends, the long term trend over recent decades in the US has been toward less violent crime, a few spectacular mass shootings aside. Others in this thread have stated that the trend in SA has been the opposite, but I would like to see the statistics to be sure.

I recently read that the gun homicide rate in Brazil is 5 times that of the US. I don't know about SA.
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Old 14th February 2013, 04:31 AM   #25
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Jings, the joke Duffy Moon edited out because he felt it was in bad taste was mild - and actually witty - compared to some of the dross that's getting posted now.

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Old 14th February 2013, 04:48 AM   #26
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From News 24.

There seems to be more to the burglar story.


"Police spokesperson Denise Beukes spoke to the media outside the country estate where Pistorius lives on Thursday.

She confirmed that there have "previously been allegations of a domestic nature at Mr Pistorius's home".

Beukes said there are witnesses and neighbours who claim to have heard things earlier on Wednesday evening and when the shooting took place.

Police also expressed "surprise" at reports that the shooting was an accident.

"The SA Police Service were just as surprised this morning to hear on the radio that allegations had been made that the deceased had been perceived to be a burglar," Beukes said.

"We were very surprised and those allegations did not come from us."

Beukes said police will reveal the reasons why they are opposing bail when he appears in court" http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Ne...orius-20130214
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Old 14th February 2013, 04:57 AM   #27
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I was reading that as well. This is starting to sound a bit less like an accidental shooting.
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Old 14th February 2013, 05:06 AM   #28
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If the story were true as told, and it apparently isn't, this would likely not even be a murder case in the US, but a manslaughter case.
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Old 14th February 2013, 05:14 AM   #29
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**** happens!
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Old 14th February 2013, 05:35 AM   #30
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I didn't buy the "thought it was a burglar" story when I heard it on Radio 5 this morning.
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Old 14th February 2013, 05:45 AM   #31
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He's been charged with murder.

Looks like the accidental-shooting angle was just media speculation when reports first came out.

So now everyone will stop trying to turn this crime into spin for their side of the gun argument, right?

.... Right?

*sigh*
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Old 14th February 2013, 05:47 AM   #32
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South Africa's own O.J.?
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Old 14th February 2013, 05:50 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Cylinder View Post
I was reading that as well. This is starting to sound a bit less like an accidental shooting.
Is it an indication of my cynicism that when I saw the news report this morning, the first thing I thought was "That's the story he's giving the police...."?
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Old 14th February 2013, 05:54 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
If the story were true as told, and it apparently isn't, this would likely not even be a murder case in the US, but a manslaughter case.
Why so?
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Old 14th February 2013, 05:56 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Reeco View Post
I didn't buy the "thought it was a burglar" story when I heard it on Radio 5 this morning.

I did, when it was reported on Good Morning Scotland, because, well, SA and all that. It has happened. However, if the police are saying they didn't put out that story and they are opposing bail, well....

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Old 14th February 2013, 05:57 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Duffy Moon View Post
*Bad taste joke removed*
Oh come on, I like a good joke. PM it to me and I'll tell it.
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Old 14th February 2013, 05:59 AM   #37
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Quote:
Beukes said the home did not appear to show signs of forced entry and that Pistorius and the victim were the only two people at the time of the shooting.

She also said there had "previous incidents" at the home.

"Allegations of a domestic nature," Beukes said.

Police were alerted to the shooting by neighbors and that residents "heard things earlier," Buekes said.
It sounds like he doesn't have a leg to stand on.
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Old 14th February 2013, 06:05 AM   #38
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And the Oscar goes to.............................Jail.
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Old 14th February 2013, 06:07 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
He's been charged with murder.

Looks like the accidental-shooting angle was just media speculation when reports first came out.

So now everyone will stop trying to turn this crime into spin for their side of the gun argument, right?

.... Right?

*sigh*
Of course not! A deliberate murder in South Africa speaks volumes about United States gun control. Somehow.
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Old 14th February 2013, 06:08 AM   #40
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If he thought she was an intruder, why didn't he run away?
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