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Old 19th February 2013, 09:26 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by RSLancastr View Post
I will soon know, as he and I are trying to set up a time for the meeting (difficult, given his full calendar, and my participation being limited to times when Susan can drive me to the church).

We are currently aiming for tomorrow (Wednesday) morning.

I will discuss here how that meeting goes.
In case this catches you in time, I wanted to mention that I've had good luck in past theological arguments taking the stance that neither party's morality derives from divine influence. People like to reassure themselves that they're better people for having religion, but it really doesn't stand up to scrutiny. There's a lot of horrific incidents in the Bible which righteous people should approve of, if their moral system truly is godly, but almost certainly don't, if they're at all decent people.

My favorite example is Lot. A righteous man, so righteous he's soon to be spared the fall of Sodom, pushes his own daughter into the arms of a rape mob and locks the door behind her to spare a few strangers he was host to. This isn't a human failing of his, it's what you're actually supposed to do in this situation. This is God's Law. This is what should feel moral and right. It's a lesson so important it's told again in Judges, only this time the mob wasn't quite so astonishingly fabulous and a concubine gets raped to death.

Nor can we escape by claiming this bit doesn't really count, or is off-topic. It's the Bible. If you're claiming your morality comes from God, you get all of it, warts and all. If not, well, why can't atheists get their morality from the same place?
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Old 19th February 2013, 01:14 PM   #82
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...not to mention the "morality" of klling every man, woman, child (and animal!) in a city, which The Lord had the Israelites do several times.
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Old 19th February 2013, 01:22 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by RSLancastr View Post
...not to mention the "morality" of klling every man, woman, child (and animal!) in a city, which The Lord had the Israelites do several times.
How many babies were aborted when he nuked Sodom and Gomorrah?
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Old 19th February 2013, 01:25 PM   #84
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...or the "morality" of punishing the billions of people born since, for something Adam and Eve did.
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Old 19th February 2013, 01:28 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by RSLancastr View Post
...or the "morality" of punishing the billions of people born since, for something Adam and Eve did.
"Puts two naked teenagers in an amusement park with no chaperones. Then tells them to never, ever touch two trees He plonked down in the middle of the park. Guess what happened next? (The Angel with the flaming sword? That was a horse/barn door thing.)
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Old 19th February 2013, 09:17 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by RSLancastr View Post
...not to mention the "morality" of klling every man, woman, child (and animal!) in a city, which The Lord had the Israelites do several times.
Sure, sure, but that's different. That's more distant, and in war besides. Atrocities happen, people are generally surprisingly okay with that.

But our society, at the present time, places a strong moral value on ensuring the welfare of our children, no matter what. To chuck your daughters under the wheels of a rape'n'murder-bus just to get them to leave you alone; to know that it's the right thing to do... that's alien and wrong to us. It hits people on a personal level, when maybe they could shrug off the Bostonites or the Phillystines.

And unlike most other examples, there isn't any wiggle room here. God didn't order it, as he did the death of Isaac; Lot just thought it was these two guys come to visit. God wasn't going to save them at the last minute; he didn't in Judges. It wasn't an error on Lot's part; the whole point of the story is to emphasize that Lot is so damned righteous he pisses holy water. It is a moral lesson, and the moral is "it's better to let your virgin daughters be raped and probably killed than to violate your obligations to hospitality."

Of course, all this assumes you're in a congregation with a reasonably literalist theological stance, which assumes the coming of Jesus didn't usher in a retcon of biblical proportions. Otherwise they may claim the story is just allegorical, or say "yeah it sucks, but things changed, it's okay to find that offensive now."
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Old 20th February 2013, 05:23 AM   #87
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Beelzebuddy, you just did a good debunking of gods in general. The whole religion thing fits the current society, not some ancient god.
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Old 21st February 2013, 11:21 AM   #88
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My meeting with Pastor Jeff was yesterday (Wednesday) morning.

We spoke for over two hours, covering a wide range of subjects.

I will try to boil down the portion that was about this topic, and will post it here when I do.
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Old 21st February 2013, 01:08 PM   #89
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Looking forward to hearing the summary. I hope it was a satisfying talk.

It occurs to me that it might be worth teasing out whether, say, a follower of Ganesh has a right to be angry if something is stolen from her. Is the main thing that a person get their outrage approved by a deity, and it doesn't matter if it's a real (from the point of view of Christians and atheists) deity? If so, your Christian friends are putting at least 5 billion people in that boat, so why pick on the atheists in particular? If not...that's pretty peculiar reasoning, to admit that it doesn't matter where you get your morals so long as they're from some god or another.
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Old 21st February 2013, 01:55 PM   #90
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Duplicate
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Last edited by RSLancastr; 21st February 2013 at 02:01 PM. Reason: Dup;licate
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Old 21st February 2013, 02:00 PM   #91
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Again, I think the phrase "has a right to" may well not be what Pastor Jeff originally said.

I'm pretty sure (though my memory is fallible, especially since my stroke) that it is what Jim (the man who taught the class) quoted Pastor Jeff as saying, but who knows how accurate his memory of it was, or whether that was how he had interpreted what Pastor Jeff had told him.

When Jeff responded to my email inquiry about the quote, he phrased it like this:

Quote:
Jim accurately communicated a story I told, but left out a critical term….I said that a consistent Atheist cannot cry out in “moral indignation” when someone breaks in to his house and steals his things. That term is key to my definition that an Atheist has no “outside, objective standard by which to define morality” without a belief in God. Yes, there are laws that guide, restrict and even punish behavior, but as a man-made construct, those decisions are subjective. Different communities make different decisions about what is right and wrong, that is undeniable. My belief is that morality is a God-given standard that governs all people and is outside of human decision making.
In our face-to-face discussion yesterday, I told him that, to an atheist/agnostic, God is "a man-made construct" and so, as Pastor Jeff had said, would also be flawed.

He agreed that would be perfectly consistent within an Atheistic worldview.

He has been nothing but welcoming and friendly with me in the almost two years since I "came out" to him and Pastor Mark, and seems to be a genuinely good guy.

In our conversation yesterday, when I mentioned that some Christians seem to have a "bee in their bonnet" when it comes to the subject of homosexuality, he said that, while homosexuality is a sin, it is no greater so than, say, gossiping, although some Christians try to elevate it as some "super sin".

I told him that a friend of mine once told me that where the Bible refers to homosexuality as an "abomination", the original word that was translated as "abomination" was also used to describe such things as Gluttony. "So," I said to Pastor Jeff "why isn't there some nutcase southern preacher with a GOD HATES FATTIES web site?"

Pastor Jeff agreed.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 03:06 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by RSLancastr View Post
Again, I think the phrase "has a right to" may well not be what Pastor Jeff originally said.

I'm pretty sure (though my memory is fallible, especially since my stroke) that it is what Jim (the man who taught the class) quoted Pastor Jeff as saying, but who knows how accurate his memory of it was, or whether that was how he had interpreted what Pastor Jeff had told him.

When Jeff responded to my email inquiry about the quote, he phrased it like this:

Quote:
Jim accurately communicated a story I told, but left out a critical term….I said that a consistent Atheist cannot cry out in “moral indignation” when someone breaks in to his house and steals his things. That term is key to my definition that an Atheist has no “outside, objective standard by which to define morality” without a belief in God. Yes, there are laws that guide, restrict and even punish behavior, but as a man-made construct, those decisions are subjective. Different communities make different decisions about what is right and wrong, that is undeniable. My belief is that morality is a God-given standard that governs all people and is outside of human decision making.
I see, he's using the standard argument of denying atheists (and - somewhat unknowingly - believers in other faiths) standards of morality, while telling them that they're no really true atheists since whatever standards of morality they may observe are rooted in (his) religion - and that they are just at the moment unable or unwilling to acknowledge it ("you know in your heart ... blah, blah, blah" ) ...

He's very likely convinced that one day, and the longer you stay around his congregation, you'll see the light ...



Quote:
I told him that a friend of mine once told me that where the Bible refers to homosexuality as an "abomination", the original word that was translated as "abomination" was also used to describe such things as Gluttony. "So," I said to Pastor Jeff "why isn't there some nutcase southern preacher with a GOD HATES FATTIES web site?"
I already heard or read something to that effect somewhere ... don't remember when or where, unfortunately.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 06:23 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Pastor Jeff
I said that a consistent Atheist cannot cry out in “moral indignation” when someone breaks in to his house and steals his things. That term is key to my definition that an Atheist has no “outside, objective standard by which to define morality” without a belief in God.
With all due respect, that is a load of excrement.

Jeff may be a very nice guy, and I have every reason to think his heart is in the right place. But on this point he is totally full of crap.

By this "reasoning," does it not follow that all "consistent" non-Christians, not just atheists, lack a basis for complaint about injustice? After all, someone who believes in the WRONG deity must, by Jeff's definition, lack a valid standard of morality.

Conversely, if a consistent non-Christian CAN have a moral basis (in spite of being in grievous error about which entity ought to be deemed divine), then atheists can have an understanding of moral justice as well, for essentially the same reason.

Does Jeff have the first inkling about the blood that drips from his argument? Does he have the first goddamned clue as to how much human death and suffering have come from the view that, "If you don't believe in God as I do, you are no damned good"?? I'd expect an intelligent man living in the Twenty-First Century, who holds himself out as a moral instructor of others, to be more enlightened than that.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 07:07 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Brown View Post
Does Jeff have the first inkling about the blood that drips from his argument? Does he have the first goddamned clue as to how much human death and suffering have come from the view that, "If you don't believe in God as I do, you are no damned good"?? I'd expect an intelligent man living in the Twenty-First Century, who holds himself out as a moral instructor of others, to be more enlightened than that.

Don't get it wrong, that argument has been thought out long ago in theological circles, hence the qualifyer "I said that a consistent Atheist cannot cry out in “moral indignation” ...", meaning that most atheists are actually "inconsistent" a.k.a. No-true-atheistsTM .

Still a load of manure, of course.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 08:10 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Flo View Post
I see, he's using the standard argument of denying atheists (and - somewhat unknowingly - believers in other faiths) standards of morality, while telling them that they're no really true atheists since whatever standards of morality they may observe are rooted in (his) religion - and that they are just at the moment unable or unwilling to acknowledge it ("you know in your heart ... blah, blah, blah" ) ...
I will run that by him the next time he and I have a discussion - or perhaps I will email it to him - thanks!

Quote:
He's very likely convinced that one day, and the longer you stay around his congregation, you'll see the light ...
At minimum, that is what he is hoping, certainly.

And I have no problem with him (or My Better Half) hoping or thinking that.

Quote:
I already heard or read something to that effect somewhere ... don't remember when or where, unfortunately.
If what my friend told me (about the word that was translated as "abomination") is true, my thought ("Why no GOD HATES FATTIES web site") makes perfect sense, so it does not surprise me that the thought is not original to me.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 08:25 AM   #96
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http://www.openbible.info/topics/gluttony
http://www.logosapostolic.org/bible_...01Gluttony.htm
http://www.gotquestions.org/gluttony-sin.html

And just for fun:
http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/
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Old 22nd February 2013, 08:53 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Brown View Post
With all due respect, that is a load of excrement.

Jeff may be a very nice guy, and I have every reason to think his heart is in the right place. But on this point he is totally full of crap.

By this "reasoning," does it not follow that all "consistent" non-Christians, not just atheists, lack a basis for complaint about injustice? After all, someone who believes in the WRONG deity must, by Jeff's definition, lack a valid standard of morality.

Conversely, if a consistent non-Christian CAN have a moral basis (in spite of being in grievous error about which entity ought to be deemed divine), then atheists can have an understanding of moral justice as well, for essentially the same reason.

Does Jeff have the first inkling about the blood that drips from his argument? Does he have the first goddamned clue as to how much human death and suffering have come from the view that, "If you don't believe in God as I do, you are no damned good"?? I'd expect an intelligent man living in the Twenty-First Century, who holds himself out as a moral instructor of others, to be more enlightened than that.
I will raise these points with him Brown - thanks.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 02:58 PM   #98
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While I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said, I just wanted to say I'm enjoying this thread. Thanks.
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Old 22nd February 2013, 05:28 PM   #99
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I'm glad you're enjoying it, Max - thanks!
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Old 22nd February 2013, 05:34 PM   #100
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1:10 - They get tired of the constant irritation this upstart agnostic provides and quietly (and subtley) remind him that the church is for believers.

Evens - RSL decides that skepticism is for the birds, and we have to endure months of ranting threads about his conversion and how we're all stupid for not seeing how obvious god is in everything around us.

10:1 - Priest admits kinky attraction to guys in wheelchairs, just as RSL's battery fails. Hilarity ensues.

100:1 - RSL's questions make priest reconsider horribly divisive approach to, well, everything.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 06:11 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Brown View Post
With all due respect, that is a load of excrement.

Jeff may be a very nice guy, and I have every reason to think his heart is in the right place. But on this point he is totally full of crap.

By this "reasoning," does it not follow that all "consistent" non-Christians, not just atheists, lack a basis for complaint about injustice? After all, someone who believes in the WRONG deity must, by Jeff's definition, lack a valid standard of morality.

Conversely, if a consistent non-Christian CAN have a moral basis (in spite of being in grievous error about which entity ought to be deemed divine), then atheists can have an understanding of moral justice as well, for essentially the same reason.

Does Jeff have the first inkling about the blood that drips from his argument? Does he have the first goddamned clue as to how much human death and suffering have come from the view that, "If you don't believe in God as I do, you are no damned good"?? I'd expect an intelligent man living in the Twenty-First Century, who holds himself out as a moral instructor of others, to be more enlightened than that.
I contend that the true source of morality is Bill and Ted
1) Be excellent to each other, and
2) Party on, dudes

If that is my source of morality, I can be consistently morally outraged.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 10:47 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Flo View Post
I see, he's using the standard argument of denying atheists (and - somewhat unknowingly - believers in other faiths) standards of morality, while telling them that they're no really true atheists since whatever standards of morality they may observe are rooted in (his) religion - and that they are just at the moment unable or unwilling to acknowledge it ("you know in your heart ... blah, blah, blah" ) ...

He's very likely convinced that one day, and the longer you stay around his congregation, you'll see the light ...
Originally Posted by Brown View Post
With all due respect, that is a load of excrement.

Jeff may be a very nice guy, and I have every reason to think his heart is in the right place. But on this point he is totally full of crap.

By this "reasoning," does it not follow that all "consistent" non-Christians, not just atheists, lack a basis for complaint about injustice? After all, someone who believes in the WRONG deity must, by Jeff's definition, lack a valid standard of morality.

Conversely, if a consistent non-Christian CAN have a moral basis (in spite of being in grievous error about which entity ought to be deemed divine), then atheists can have an understanding of moral justice as well, for essentially the same reason.

Does Jeff have the first inkling about the blood that drips from his argument? Does he have the first goddamned clue as to how much human death and suffering have come from the view that, "If you don't believe in God as I do, you are no damned good"?? I'd expect an intelligent man living in the Twenty-First Century, who holds himself out as a moral instructor of others, to be more enlightened than that.
I forwarded the above quotes to Pastor Jeff via email, and will relay here any response he gives to them, if he gives me permission to do so.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 09:57 PM   #103
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Well, Robert, I can't help but say, "Ouch!" Well, a potential "Ouch", anyway.

You and he must really be on good terms if you forwarded all of that to him. He'll probably be very cool about it because of his good nature and your friendship. Still, a small part of me fears he may become annoyed or feel challenged when he reads your email.

I am genuinely pleased that you have been so welcomed and accepted at your church. There are many terrific clerics and Jeff sounds like one of them. I do hope he stays cool and the two of you can remain "Excellent to each other!" I LOVE the Bill and Ted Morality Code.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 10:56 PM   #104
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Quote:
Jim accurately communicated a story I told, but left out a critical term….I said that a consistent Atheist cannot cry out in “moral indignation” when someone breaks in to his house and steals his things. That term is key to my definition that an Atheist has no “outside, objective standard by which to define morality” without a belief in God. Yes, there are laws that guide, restrict and even punish behavior, but as a man-made construct, those decisions are subjective. Different communities make different decisions about what is right and wrong, that is undeniable. My belief is that morality is a God-given standard that governs all people and is outside of human decision making.
Atheists do have an outside objective standard by which to define morality. It's called Science.

There are reams of explanations of the role of altruism and co-operation in nature, biology and evolution.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 10:57 PM   #105
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I can't close the thread without showing my appreciation for this post:

Originally Posted by xterra View Post
Robert,

I have read only to the end of page 1, so if this has been said, sorry for the repetition.

A person who does not lie, cheat, steal, murder, etc, because of a belief that doing those things will bring supernatural punishment and not doing them will bring supernatural reward is not being moral. That person is acting only out of self-interest.

Only the person who doesn't cheat, steal, murder, etc, because of a belief that these things are wrong in and of themselves, and who does not believe in a Supernatural Power*, is being moral.

This seems to me to be so self-evident that it almost need not be said, but apparently this is not the case.

If this is read as implying that the adherents of most religions are not moral, so be it; I won't disagree.


*Whether the Power is Jehovah, Zeus, Thor or Siva makes no difference to this argument.
Very well said, xterra!
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Old 23rd February 2013, 11:41 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Atheists do have an outside objective standard by which to define morality. It's called Science.

There are reams of explanations of the role of altruism and co-operation in nature, biology and evolution.
But there are also reams of explanations and justifications for the role of sociopathy, killing the disabled and feeble-minded as well as cheating others for the benefit of your offspring.

Suffice to say, evolution isn't really a good source of morality.
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Old 24th February 2013, 12:02 AM   #107
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Jeff says
Quote:
That term [moral indignation] is key to my definition that an Atheist has no “outside, objective standard by which to define morality” without a belief in God.
So either he is completely unaware of the many attempts (and, some would hold, successes) of philosophers to develop/discover such objective standards, or he thinks that all of them are necessarily incorrect. (Perhaps in the same sense some atheists say of religions that "they can't all be right, but they can all be wrong".)

What would he say of someone who truly believes in such a moral standard, under which theft is morally wrong? Why, under such a standard, could a "consistent" atheist (whatever that is) still not cry out in "moral indignation" at a theft?

The one that comes most handily to mind is Objectivism, which holds that the "outside, objective standard" is humans' capacity to reason, and that we may not steal the products of others' reasoning, only trade our products for theirs. (A short, probably inaccurate & possibly misleading description, but it goes something like that.)
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Old 24th February 2013, 08:49 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Minarvia View Post
Well, Robert, I can't help but say, "Ouch!" Well, a potential "Ouch", anyway.

You and he must really be on good terms if you forwarded all of that to him. He'll probably be very cool about it because of his good nature and your friendship. Still, a small part of me fears he may become annoyed or feel challenged when he reads your email.

I am genuinely pleased that you have been so welcomed and accepted at your church. There are many terrific clerics and Jeff sounds like one of them. I do hope he stays cool and the two of you can remain "Excellent to each other!" I LOVE the Bill and Ted Morality Code.
Another example of Pastor Jeff's "cool" attitude (especially for a pastor) and of our relationship:

During the meeting, I remembered that I had brought a form I had filled out, disclosing any criminal convictions and pending criminal charges I might have (I have none of either).

Volunteers for positions within the church - particularly positions where the person was likely to come into contact with children - were required to have filed a completed copy of said form with the church office before they could fulfill their volunteer ministry (evidently, just about anything one does for or at the church is called their "ministry").

Since I was to strart volunteering at the church's library right after my meeting with Jeff, I had brought the form along.

And, since the library is one of the things over which Jeff is in charge, I decided to show him that I had brought it, in case he was wondering.

I pulled the form off of my clipboard. "Oh, and I brought this" I said, holding the form out where he could see it.

He saw what I was holding and said "Oh, that. I'm glad you brought it. It's just part of the paperwork we have to go through..."

I said that I understood the need for the form, and had no problem with filling it out, then added "I asked Susan if she thnought that I should write down that time I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die..."

Jeff chuckled and said "Johnny - nice!", and took the form and filed it away.

He's a Good Guy, as is Pastor Mark, the church's Senior Pastor, with whom I have a similar relationship.

Both men, and the relationships I have formed with them, are a large part of the reason why I feel comfortable and welcome at this church, despite my Non-Belief.
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:37 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
But there are also reams of explanations and justifications for the role of sociopathy, killing the disabled and feeble-minded as well as cheating others for the benefit of your offspring.

Suffice to say, evolution isn't really a good source of morality.
I'd also say that the advantages of both cooperation and of sociopathy aren't answers to the question of the source of moral standards.

They may be answers to how to achieve certain results--like minimizing human suffering or maximizing human survival--but morality is more about what results should be achieved than how to achieve them.

I think one can address morality through science, but the answer lies more in figuring out why we have an urge to minimize human suffering or maximize human survival, rather than how we achieve those goals.
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Old 27th February 2013, 03:23 AM   #110
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We went to class 4 in the "Christian Worldview 101" sessions this past Sunday.

I was pretty sure - from the way Jim came to our table and spoke with me - that he has yet to read my email to him about Class #2.

The class was no better organized this time, and focused on Secular Humanism. A bit of demonizing of Secular Humanists was done, but nothing terribly overt.

I learned yesterday that Susan and I will be attending a dinner this Thursday at the home of another couple in the class, and that Jim (the teacher) will be there as well. Might be interesting.

Another couple in the class, who are very prominant at the church, and with whom we have become good friends, have been discussing with us my/our dissatisfaction with the class. They are not very pleased with it either, for slightly different reasons (although they too think that his story about the Atheist having "no right" to be angry was unfair,and made no sense.
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Old 27th February 2013, 04:39 AM   #111
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why do they try to elevate their worldview by degrading others?

doesnt seem very christian.
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Old 27th February 2013, 04:50 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by devnull View Post
why do they try to elevate their worldview by degrading others?
It helps in the rankings?

And, to be fair, not all Christians do, just some.

For the same reason some skeptics denegrate the "opposition" in a thread/debate, rather than simply supporting their own position: because it is the easy/lazy way, and because it "plays to the home team", something I made a conscious decision to avoid in my Stop Sites.

Prior to StopSylvia.com, most skeptical web pages about Sylvia spent more time making fun of her looks than they did pointing out her mistakes in her readings/predictions.

Quote:
doesnt seem very christian.
No, but it does seem very human. And Christians do belong to that club.
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Old 27th February 2013, 05:00 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by devnull View Post
why do they try to elevate their worldview by degrading others?

doesnt seem very christian.
I'm only 62, I may still live to meet someone who acts "Christ-like". So far I've only seen them act like Christian. I.e., just like most everybody else.
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Old 27th February 2013, 05:02 AM   #114
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Not sure how you'd demonise secular humanists without taking a very extreme "We are nothing without God" line or massively misrepresenting their beliefs.

I'm finding this thread very interesting, and I recognise a lot of myself in your journey, RSL. I left a church with a great pastor, who was genuinely approachable, open, honest (both personally and intellectually) and really made me feel inclined to stick around even if I thought it was all a load of fairy stories. I doubt I'd agree with Pastor Jeff all that much, but he sounds like a great guy who you could have a proper, honest conversation with. That's far more important.
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Old 27th February 2013, 05:11 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
I'm only 62, I may still live to meet someone who acts "Christ-like". So far I've only seen them act like Christian. I.e., just like most everybody else.
To paraphrase Ghandi:

"I like your Christ - he was a good man.
But I do not care too much for Christians - they are so unlike your Christ."
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Old 27th February 2013, 05:28 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by RSLancastr View Post
To paraphrase Ghandi:

"I like your Christ - he was a good man.
But I do not care too much for Christians - they are so unlike your Christ."
Yep, that. Christians I've known were Christians when it suited them. Classic examples of situational ethics.
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Old 27th February 2013, 05:33 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by RSLancastr View Post
No, but it does seem very human. And Christians do belong to that club.
And yet when atheists want to claim they have the same sense of morality that all humans have, the Christians want to make that human trait exclusive to Christians.
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Old 27th February 2013, 06:20 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
And yet when atheists want to claim they have the same sense of morality that all humans have, the Christians want to make that human trait exclusive to Christians.
And here you are, taking something said by one Christian (and misquoted by a second), and making it sound as though all Christians ("the Christians") say it/believe it.
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Old 27th February 2013, 06:23 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
I'm only 62, I may still live to meet someone who acts "Christ-like". So far I've only seen them act like Christian. I.e., just like most everybody else.
You mean raising the dead, walking on water and making instant wine?
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Old 27th February 2013, 06:29 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by RSLancastr View Post
And here you are, taking something said by one Christian (and misquoted by a second), and making it sound as though all Christians ("the Christians") say it/believe it.
Id suggest it would be the majority. It's an extremely popular view.

You remind me of Luke at Mos Eisley.
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