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Old 26th February 2013, 06:06 AM   #121
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Flower of Scotland is an unmitigated dirge that is not improved by sounding at the beginning as if it is about to launch into Va pensiero. And it deals with almost exactly the same subject matter as Scots wha hae, so if you don't want to sing about 1314 then it's not an option either.

I'd happily bury it in quicklime.

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Old 26th February 2013, 06:20 AM   #122
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Liechtenstein has a nice anthem. Just borrow the tune of that and come up with some new words; I'm sure no one would notice.
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Old 26th February 2013, 07:01 AM   #123
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It's an odd thing. Scottish music is extremely distinctive. Ask Felix Mendelssohn. We have a positively ridiculous percentage of the world's greatest tunes. And we can't find an anthem.

Dearie me.

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Old 26th February 2013, 07:43 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Rat View Post
Liechtenstein has a nice anthem. Just borrow the tune of that and come up with some new words; I'm sure no one would notice.
If a newly-independent Scotland chooses to retain Queen Elizabeth II as head of state, perhaps the first verse could cover some deity looking after her health, giving her long life and so on.
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Old 26th February 2013, 08:59 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Rat View Post
Not nearly as big a shadow as the US. I'm not convinced that you don't hate England, regardless of your feelings as to the English, since you seem to enjoy so the prospect of its decline. Do you look forward similarly to the decline of France, for example?
No, I don't hate England. I also enjoyed watching the dissolution of the Soviet Union, but that doesn't mean I hate Russia or Russians. I would also like to see Tibet become free from Red China, but that doesn't mean I hate China(though I do hate its government). I realize Scotland isn't anything like Tibet, but I still would love to see it achieve independence.

As far as France is concerned, I wouldn't mind seeing it dissolved as well(and Germany, Spain). Thing is, the French Empire wasn't nearly as big or as powerful as the British Empire(around 25% of the world's land area at its peak), so it's more fun watching England fall. It was the last of the big mega-empires. I'm also sick and tired of my own country being the world's police(it's like the British passed the torch to us when their empire collapsed), so I don't mind the U.S becoming weakened as well.
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Old 26th February 2013, 09:04 AM   #126
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I don't think anyone in Scotland who supports independence equates it to causing England to "fall".

It might free England to be England.

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Old 26th February 2013, 09:32 AM   #127
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I want Mogwai, Scotland's greatest band, to write the new national anthem. Or we could just put words to their gloriously titled track "George Square Thatcher Death Party"
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Old 26th February 2013, 09:47 AM   #128
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A question for people in the U.K: To what extent is there a generic white "British" identity in the U.K that supersedes being ethnically English, Scottish, Irish, or Welsh?

I ask this since, given enough time and with all the mixing that has been going on for centuries, the ethnic differences could be erased and with it no more calls for secession. It seems that just about every English person has at least a little Scottish, Welsh, or Irish ancestry. It seems the process of becoming generic white British means becoming quasi-"English".
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Old 26th February 2013, 09:52 AM   #129
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It's not about ethnicity. Scottish nationalism is an inclusive, civic nationalism. And telling anyone from Scotland that they're "quasi-English" will probably result in your teeth disappearing rapidly down your windpipe....



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Old 26th February 2013, 09:52 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Zelenius View Post
A question for people in the U.K: To what extent is there a generic white "British" identity in the U.K that supersedes being ethnically English, Scottish, Irish, or Welsh?

I ask this since, given enough time and with all the mixing that has been going on for centuries, the ethnic differences could be erased and with it no more calls for secession. It seems that just about every English person has at least a little Scottish, Welsh, or Irish ancestry. It seems the process of becoming generic white British means becoming quasi-"English".
I am very mixed stock and don't know anyone who is pure Scots. I suspect most families include relatives who at least live elsewhere in the UK. I know a lot of people who describe themselves as "Scot Brit" which is how I feel. I am British, from the part called Scotland and so support Scotland at sports.
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Old 26th February 2013, 09:58 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's not about ethnicity. Scottish nationalism is an inclusive, civic nationalism. And telling anyone from Scotland that they're "quasi-English" will probably result in your teeth disappearing rapidly down your windpipe....



Rolfe.
I'll keep that in mind if I am ever in Scotland.
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Old 26th February 2013, 10:39 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I am very mixed stock and don't know anyone who is pure Scots. I suspect most families include relatives who at least live elsewhere in the UK. I know a lot of people who describe themselves as "Scot Brit" which is how I feel. I am British, from the part called Scotland and so support Scotland at sports.

I don't suppose I'm "pure Scots", it's just we haven't found anyone who wasn't born in Scotland in our (OK my cousins') excavations of the family tree.

Zelenius needs to realise that it's not about that, though. It doesn't matter whether you were born in Scotland, England, Pakistan or Poland, if you live in Scotland you get to vote. It's about all of us together taking control of our own decisions and our own resources.

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Old 26th February 2013, 11:40 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't suppose I'm "pure Scots", it's just we haven't found anyone who wasn't born in Scotland in our (OK my cousins') excavations of the family tree.

Zelenius needs to realise that it's not about that, though. It doesn't matter whether you were born in Scotland, England, Pakistan or Poland, if you live in Scotland you get to vote. It's about all of us together taking control of our own decisions and our own resources.

Rolfe.
My mistake. Thanks for the correction. I understand the situation better now.
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Old 26th February 2013, 12:10 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Zelenius View Post
My mistake. Thanks for the correction. I understand the situation better now.
Thing is that Scotland has a lot of control, especially now with its own parliament. It is a part within a union just as US states have control within a union. The way some Scottish nationalists would have you believe Scotland has no powers and is ruled by others.

Its funny how Rolph says "all of us together" but she really means split us up and not all together. The union that is the UK is us all together.
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Old 26th February 2013, 12:15 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Zelenius View Post
A question for people in the U.K: To what extent is there a generic white "British" identity in the U.K that supersedes being ethnically English, Scottish, Irish, or Welsh?

I ask this since, given enough time and with all the mixing that has been going on for centuries, the ethnic differences could be erased and with it no more calls for secession. It seems that just about every English person has at least a little Scottish, Welsh, or Irish ancestry. It seems the process of becoming generic white British means becoming quasi-"English".
It's often talked about (mostly by the kind of people who you'd be ashamed to claim as your own) but I haven't really worked out what the 'British identity/culture' really is (other than a paper thin cover for English nationalism).

I mean what is 'British' culture? Bowler hats and cucumber sandwiches? An obsession with the wars, the Germans, the French and foreigners in general? Loving the Queen?

I know many Scots tell me they consider themselves to be British but I really don't know what they mean by it. Certainly I don't. 'British' is way down my list of things I consider myself.
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Old 26th February 2013, 12:26 PM   #136
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British identity and culture is very diverse, just as the country is. There are 101 things that are part of being British and another that are part of being Scottish.
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Old 26th February 2013, 12:34 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
British identity and culture is very diverse, just as the country is. There are 101 things that are part of being British and another that are part of being Scottish.
Care to have a stab at defining it or listing some of them then?

I really don't identify with being British other than having a British passport. Whenever I see something that's supposed to be celebrating British culture I generally feel like its aimed at someone who isn't me.
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Old 26th February 2013, 12:38 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles View Post
Care to have a stab at defining it or listing some of them then?

I really don't identify with being British other than having a British passport. Whenever I see something that's supposed to be celebrating British culture I generally feel like its aimed at someone who isn't me.
There is probably no attribute that is part of British culture that is universal, so there will always be a lot of exceptions, but the same is certainly true for English or Scottish culture, if you would consider those to be valid.

For a fairly trivial example, television would do well. British people largely all watch the same television programmes, and whether you like it or not, a lot of common culture is derived from that. Going to the pub would be another; not everyone goes to the pub, and people in other countries do go to pubs or near equivalents, but it is a part of British culture.
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Old 26th February 2013, 12:39 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles View Post
It's often talked about (mostly by the kind of people who you'd be ashamed to claim as your own) but I haven't really worked out what the 'British identity/culture' really is (other than a paper thin cover for English nationalism).

I mean what is 'British' culture? Bowler hats and cucumber sandwiches? An obsession with the wars, the Germans, the French and foreigners in general? Loving the Queen?

I know many Scots tell me they consider themselves to be British but I really don't know what they mean by it. Certainly I don't. 'British' is way down my list of things I consider myself.
I really don't understand exactly what it means either, except meaning "from the British Isles". In most ways "British" to me seems more synonymous with "English" than anything else, although at times it seems like a synthesis of 8 parts English with 2 parts Scottish, 1 part Welsh and 1 part Irish.

But I'm just an outsider and very ignorant of these matters so what do I know?

To me, in many ways "British" can be seen as analogous with "Iranian". Although a predominantly Persian country, there is also an overarching Iranian identity in Iran that includes the Persians as well as the Kurds, Turks and other minorities. The Iranian identity is most closely associated with the Persian identity, since the country is mainly Farsi(Persian) speaking and they are the largest ethnic group.

To some it up, the English have the same position within the "British" identity as the Persians have in the "Iranian" identity.

I don't know if this helps matters, but I thought I would just throw it out there. There are several Anglophiles(or is it Britophiles?) in my family, and so we sometimes discuss these issues.

Last edited by Zelenius; 26th February 2013 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 26th February 2013, 12:45 PM   #140
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Zelenius, surely you understand diversity and identity, coming from a very diverse country like yours. I see you are east coast, so say you are a New Yorker and an American with identity to city or state and the country as a whole.
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Old 26th February 2013, 12:52 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Thing is that Scotland has a lot of control, especially now with its own parliament. It is a part within a union just as US states have control within a union.

That, unfortunately, is not true. Scotland has no fiscal control at all. Scotland gets a fixed amount of pocket money, and the government only gets to figure out how to make it stretch to cover the things it has to cover and wants to cover. US states have far far more autonomy than that.

Westminster is even able to manipulate Scotland within this system. If the Scottish parliament doesn't want to privatise the NHS for example, it can be forced to do so by way of the Barnett consequentials - England privatises its NHS, so less public money is used, so Scotland's pocket money is cut to match. That's kind of how it works.

US states get to raise their own taxes and retain and administer their own revenue, then remit an agreed amount to the central government for shared obligations. If Scotland had that arrangement, or a reasonable prospect of getting it, we wouldn't be having this referendum I suspect.

Texas is rich in oil, Texas is rich. Scotland is rich in oil, and that money paid for vanity projects in the south east of England, and the unemployment benefits necessitated by the closure of Scotland's heavy industry, while our roads have potholes and our housing estates have record poverty levels.

Scotland has paid more into the UK than it has received back at every period since 1707 for which we have the data. That drains a country, over the years and the decades and the centuries. Drains it of population and investment and self-confidence.

Such as Scotland has now, has been reluctantly conceded in order to stave off the threat of the independence movement. Devolution was intended to kill the independence movement stone dead. If we burn our ace card by voting No next year, get used to the idea that crucial powers will be clawed back by Westminster and we will have to fall into line and privatise our NHS and our water (Call-me-Dave has cronies who are dying to get in on the ground floor on that one), and charge our students to go to university and pay for prescriptions. Free care for the elderly and even the bus pass will go. The bedroom tax will stay.

The idea that devolution could allow Scotland to make distinctively Scottish choices within the UK has failed - partly due to the funding formula, and partly due to the hatred whipped up by the tabloid press in England if Scots get any benefit not available in England. If we blow it next year, we will be whipped back into line.

It remains to be seen whether enough people will work it out in the next 18 months, or whether people will either believe this "Better Together" mince, or be frightened away from a Yes vote by the threats and the scare stories. I only note that the movement is all in one direction.

Rolfe.
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Old 26th February 2013, 12:54 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles View Post
Care to have a stab at defining it or listing some of them then?

I really don't identify with being British other than having a British passport. Whenever I see something that's supposed to be celebrating British culture I generally feel like its aimed at someone who isn't me.
We are such a mix and can be quite boisterous and loud, but also reserved and polite. We like bland lagers and spicy curry. We have huge pride in our nationalist NHS and our capitalist system which for size makes us a very big economy. We are very inventive and also traditionalist. We are a democratic monarchy, in itself a contradiction, with one of the most famous parliaments and monarchs in the world. We are up for a fight, yet regard ourselves as a peaceful nation. We pretty much all speak the same language, but with accents so diverse some cannot be understood by non speakers.
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Old 26th February 2013, 01:14 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
We are such a mix and can be quite boisterous and loud, but also reserved and polite. We like bland lagers and spicy curry. We have huge pride in our nationalist NHS and our capitalist system which for size makes us a very big economy. We are very inventive and also traditionalist. We are a democratic monarchy, in itself a contradiction, with one of the most famous parliaments and monarchs in the world. We are up for a fight, yet regard ourselves as a peaceful nation. We pretty much all speak the same language, but with accents so diverse some cannot be understood by non speakers.
It reads like a bad horoscope...is there any wonder I struggle to identify with an identity like that?
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Old 26th February 2013, 01:17 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles View Post
It reads like a bad horoscope...is there any wonder I struggle to identify with an identity like that?
Read a proper study if you are that concerned, I gave you a paragraph on a forum debate.
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Old 26th February 2013, 01:22 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles View Post
It reads like a bad horoscope...is there any wonder I struggle to identify with an identity like that?
It does, I agree. I did come up with a couple of suggestions, but if you're looking for a full character description that fits all British people, I would concede that there isn't one, as there isn't for any large group of people.
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Old 26th February 2013, 01:30 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Rat View Post
It does, I agree. I did come up with a couple of suggestions, but if you're looking for a full character description that fits all British people, I would concede that there isn't one, as there isn't for any large group of people.
And yet 300m Americans manage to have a much more unified identity.

I agree with you point to be honest, but its the pretense of this identity which I think grates with me and often, the motives behind the people who are trying to push it.

When our PM is pushing an anti-immigration line to pander to Little Englander racists I don't feel proud of our diverse British culture I feel sick that I'm subsumed in a country that would elect that toad.
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Old 26th February 2013, 01:32 PM   #147
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I would say that if you're going to use the acts of a political party when in government to find splits in British culture, you'll find that the USA in fact probably has a less unified identity.
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Old 26th February 2013, 04:25 PM   #148
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Identity in the U.S is very complicated. It's hardly a very unified country. Unlike the U.K, our states are not and were never "ethno-states", which is what Scotland, in my view originally was even it isn't one today and its not something that motivates separatism. The vast majority of our population, which is white is originally from Europe and has been here for only a few centuries. A fairly high percentage came over in only the last 100 years. Of course, there are many white Americans who claim a significant amount of Native American/Amerindian ancestry, so they can claim to have ancestry going back thousands of years. But over all, relatively few Americans have deep roots in this country. Whites whose pioneer ancestors came over from Britain a very long time ago just identify as "American", and seldom care to what extent they are of English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, or Scots-Irish ancestry. There is a lot of controversy surrounding what qualifies as a "WASP"(White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) in the U.S, but few would dispute that Bush is a WASP.

The "Hispanic" or "Latino" identity further complicates matters, especially since they can be of any "race". In some contexts, a white Hispanic may decide to self-identify as only white; in others, as "Hispanic". There are also plenty of black Hispanics and Hispanics who are Native American or very mixed. "Latino" is often used synonymously with "Hispanic" but can sometimes include immigrants from Brazil, so "Latino" is kind of confusing. Because of affirmative action programs meant to help minorities in the U.S, many very white "Hispanics" will claim to only be "Hispanic". It sometimes bothers me when I meet someone from South America who is mostly of German ancestry, and then comes here and claims to be "Hispanic" to everyone, just because he can speak Spanish, while German-Americans are just plain ol' white people. In other words, the "Hispanic" very white German can be helped by affirmative action programs meant to help disenfranchised groups.

Immigrants and tourists from Spain often laugh at all this, but the last thing in the world they would ever call themselves in the U.S is "Hispanic"(with rare exceptions). Italian-Americans in the U.S are never Latino, even though Latin was originally from Italy.

Immigrants from India used to be classified as "white" until a few decades ago, now they are just Indian or Asian.

There's also lots of issues when it comes to blackness. President Obama is often called "black", though he is only half black. I suppose its the legacy of the old "One Drop Rule" in the U.S, which meant any amount of black ancestry makes you "black". And we also get immigration straight from sub-Saharan Africa these days, and sadly, they often get harassed or assaulted in many of our cities. No, not by packs of white racist thugs but almost always by African-Americans, which seems paradoxical to some.

And this doesn't even take into account the regional differences, though it seems the U.K with its much smaller area still manages to pack as much diversity on to its islands as we do. I don't know if the U.K has various confusing classification schemes like we do, only to completely change or alter them every now and then due to political pressure or other reasons.

And don't get me started on "Creoles". That's another big mess all by itself!

Last edited by Zelenius; 26th February 2013 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 26th February 2013, 09:43 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Zelenius View Post
To me, as a clueless American, it looks like Australia can't have its own, unfettered national identity until it abolishes the monarchy and governor general and becomes a fully independent republic(it can still, however, remain a member of the Commonwealth/Betty Windsor Fan Club as I understand it). Sure, it is "independent", but symbolically it is still linked with its mother country through the monarchy and GG, even if the Parliament in London no longer has any authority in Australia.

I believe Australia should replace the monarchy with a president; a Resident for a President.
Well, when you put it that way...

Actually, when you put it that way, it sounds a lot like, "You idiots! Can't you see that AMERICA! has the best system in the world?? Why on earth aren't you copying us yet? You can't make any progress unless you've become just like AMERICA!!"

Not that you're actually meaning that, but that's the sentiment I've heard from a number of people on the subject of Canada and the crown (or, Canada and nearly any other political topic). It is infuriating.
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Last edited by Madalch; 26th February 2013 at 09:54 PM.
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Old 26th February 2013, 11:04 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Madalch View Post
Well, when you put it that way...

Actually, when you put it that way, it sounds a lot like, "You idiots! Can't you see that AMERICA! has the best system in the world?? Why on earth aren't you copying us yet? You can't make any progress unless you've become just like AMERICA!!"

Not that you're actually meaning that, but that's the sentiment I've heard from a number of people on the subject of Canada and the crown (or, Canada and nearly any other political topic). It is infuriating.
Well, there was that "Queen dissolving parliament so Harper can avoid no confidence" business, or at least that was how it was reported here.

I was like, "my JREF friends lied to me about her being a powerless figurehead!"
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Old 27th February 2013, 12:05 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Well, there was that "Queen dissolving parliament so Harper can avoid no confidence" business, or at least that was how it was reported here.

I was like, "my JREF friends lied to me about her being a powerless figurehead!"
The Queen didn't do it on her own- Harper asked the GG to do it, and the GG did. Whether or not the Queen herself was actually consulted...I'd have to check.
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Old 27th February 2013, 03:08 AM   #152
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It's presuambaly like when 'The Queen' dissolves Parliament here, the form may be that of a petition to her Maj, but in reality it is just a formalised declaration of the Prime Minister's decision.
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Old 27th February 2013, 06:51 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I don't see the US as a very good example, especially representing minorities.




The Scots have the same rights as every one else. The Scots rule within the UK, they are not ruled by England. There is a very strong Scottish identity within being British and then European.
It is not that the U.S. does a good job with representing minorities, it is that each minority as recognized by the federal government i.e. "states", have certain rights to pursue personal policy so long as it does not conflict with certain laws of the land. Scotland's Parliament by far is weak and unable to make certain critical decisions without the granted permission of National Parliament.

If the Scots had increased rights to make personal decisions similar to states in the U.S., I bet you that Scotland would not be considering withdrawing from the Union now.

If Scotland goes, you can kiss the U.K. bye bye. Soon Wales will follow, then Northern Ireland will follow. Only Cornwall will stay in the union and that's because there's only like 500 cornies left .

At any rate, as I stated previously, what happened in the Soviet Union was a prelude to what is going to happen through out Europe.

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Old 27th February 2013, 06:59 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Madalch View Post
Well, when you put it that way...

Actually, when you put it that way, it sounds a lot like, "You idiots! Can't you see that AMERICA! has the best system in the world?? Why on earth aren't you copying us yet? You can't make any progress unless you've become just like AMERICA!!"

Not that you're actually meaning that, but that's the sentiment I've heard from a number of people on the subject of Canada and the crown (or, Canada and nearly any other political topic). It is infuriating.
I'm sorry that it seems to imply that, but you can consider us even since whenever there is a mass shooting in the U.S, many British and Australian posters on these boards always jump in to gun-control discussions and say essentially the same thing - "why don't you stupid Americans do it our way and implement much stricter gun control laws?". However, it doesn't necessarily infuriate me since I am mostly in agreement that we need stricter gun control laws.

Now, going back to the subject of the monarchy, it does seem "silly" for a purported "democracy" to still have a monarch, to an American anyway. However, as I understand it, all the Commonwealth Realms are already independent, about as independent as the U.S is from the U.K. The monarchy is just symbolic(even in the U.K).

My country achieved independence through violence, while Canada, Australia, and New Zealand achieved it through legislation over many decades. I wonder if this slow, graceful dance toward independence would have happened the way it happened if it hadn't been for the hard lesson the British learned from the American War for Independence. If the American Colonies had been granted more autonomy or more say in issues like taxes, the war may have never happened.

I think these issues concerning monarchs and liberty plays into the deep cultural underpinnings of the ideology of the gun-loving side in the gun control debate: We drove out the British Crown from these lands through force of arms, so an armed citizenry is essential to preserving liberty(I'm not saying I agree with this, but that is the attitude of many on the pro-gun side). So the gun is a symbol of freedom, the Crown is a symbol of oppression. A gun is essential to being a freeman and no man is truly a freeman if he lives under a monarchy. This plays into the popular American idea that: "An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject."

If Australia became independent through war, many Australians today might have a similar attitude toward guns and might have something similar to our Second Amendment in their constitution.

The way I see things, if Australia and/or Canada abolishes the monarchy and become republics, that's great. If they maintain the status quo, that is also great, but the first still seems a tiny bit more great than the latter.

I just hope you guys are ready for the Charlie Windsor Fan Club. For some reason, I suspect he may be a little more "hands on"(especially when it comes to alternative medicine) than his mother.

Respectfully,
Zelenius
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Old 27th February 2013, 07:48 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Last of the Fraggles View Post
And yet 300m Americans manage to have a much more unified identity.
I disagree. The USA is very diverse.

Quote:
I agree with you point to be honest, but its the pretense of this identity which I think grates with me and often, the motives behind the people who are trying to push it.
But there is no single identity and as I described above we are diverse to the point that opposites are still part of our overall diverse identity.

Quote:
When our PM is pushing an anti-immigration line to pander to Little Englander racists I don't feel proud of our diverse British culture I feel sick that I'm subsumed in a country that would elect that toad.
I do not see immigration controls as being anti-immigration.
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Old 27th February 2013, 07:53 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by L.Y.S. View Post
It is not that the U.S. does a good job with representing minorities, it is that each minority as recognized by the federal government i.e. "states", have certain rights to pursue personal policy so long as it does not conflict with certain laws of the land. Scotland's Parliament by far is weak and unable to make certain critical decisions without the granted permission of National Parliament.

If the Scots had increased rights to make personal decisions similar to states in the U.S., I bet you that Scotland would not be considering withdrawing from the Union now.
Devo max or more power to the Scottish Parliament would be my preference. I think if it was a voting option it would come out top over independence.

Quote:
If Scotland goes, you can kiss the U.K. bye bye. Soon Wales will follow, then Northern Ireland will follow. Only Cornwall will stay in the union and that's because there's only like 500 cornies left .

At any rate, as I stated previously, what happened in the Soviet Union was a prelude to what is going to happen through out Europe.
I disagree totally, there is no evidence to say England, Wales and especially Northern Ireland want to split.
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Old 27th February 2013, 09:44 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Devo max or more power to the Scottish Parliament would be my preference. I think if it was a voting option it would come out top over independence.

You might be right at that. The problem is, the unionist parties vetoed the very idea of your being given that choice on the ballot paper. You might like to think about why.

The stark truth is, devo max is not an option. It would require a major upheaval to the entire British state, brought about by Westminster, for it to happen. Westminster is not going to do that and the English electorate wouldn't hold still for it anyway.

We've got all the power they're going to give us. Look at Calman. Calman's proposals were relatively modest, but even these were taken by Westminster and watered down further. The passage of the Calman bill was the scene of some highly unedifying attempts by Scottish lords and others to remove powers from Scotland and further hamstring the Scottish government.

The tax powers and funding proposals in the Calman legislation are absolutely dreadful and will seriously damage Scotland if they ever come into force. They are intended to give Scotland no chance of raising more money than before, but to launder what is granted through the Inland Revenue in a highly inefficient manner for the purpose of the Scottish government being seen to be blameable for spending cuts.

That is what we are stuck with if there is a No vote. That, and Trident, and the prospect of a much more heavy-handed administration from Westminster once they don't have to worry that Scots will vote for independence if they don't like what's being done to them. Expect significant powers such as planning to be reserved.

You are not going to get jam tomorrow, no matter how often the same people who prevented you from expressing a preference for devo-max in the referendum sort of hint that they might think about it. It's independence or Calman, austerity, bedroom tax and ATOS.

Your choice.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I disagree totally, there is no evidence to say England, Wales and especially Northern Ireland want to split.

There is quite a high nationalist vote in Wales, but like you I have some doubt that they could carry a referendum vote. Northern Ireland is a complete can of worms. If anything happens it's more likely to be a reunited Ireland, which I think in the long term would be the best thing for everyone but in the short term could get quite unpleasant.

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Last edited by Rolfe; 27th February 2013 at 10:37 AM. Reason: Typo fix
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Old 27th February 2013, 10:26 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
If anything happens it's more likely to be a reuninted Ireland, which I think in the long term would be the best thing for everyone but in the short term could get quite unpleasant.
Reunited? As in "with the UK"? I don't see that as likely.
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Old 27th February 2013, 10:37 AM   #159
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Eh? I know I made a fat-finger typo, but I thought everyone who has a pulse knows what's usually meant by "a reunited Ireland".

Rolfe.
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Old 27th February 2013, 10:44 AM   #160
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Yes, obviously I knew what you meant and was being sarcastic. But as far as I know, the only way that Ireland has ever been united is under the English or British king, although I'm willing to be educated otherwise.
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